Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

[Easy_Lee]

I am thankful for JC to clarify this that has lead to 6(?) threads arguing it? I do agree that the decision has unfortunately made the invocation strictly Fluff and no way mechanically beneficial. Sure, will I still use this invocation? Yes, but it will be swapped as soon as I can for the Ancient Book of secrets one.

Just remember folks, these rulings are guidelines and each table can tweak any rules to fit the need of that table. If you really want to make it excuse the long rest penalty, talk to your DM.

Last I checked, the rule that skipping sleep caused exhaustion was optional in the first place.

Not that this makes it different from any other rule in actual play, since DMs can and often do ignore or change things on the fly anyway. But people on the forums seem to care about this sort of thing.

In short, Aspect is the Moon is useless only if your DM uses that optional rule and follows the apparent RAI - two big ifs.

[Ganymede]

I am not misremembering anything. I included the XtGE rule quote the OP disingenuously left out to support his position. (Which apparently isn't an actual argument he is even making, according to his later posts. Which makes him a troll.)

The OP? You mean Jeremy Crawford?

He's allowed to make any rule clarifications he wants.

[LeonBH]

I'm infinitely amused by the fact that Tanarii, who has been shown to be wrong, is unyielding his stance while calling me (the OP) a troll.

The rule literally says "Whenever you end a 24-hour period without finishing a long rest, you must succeed on a DC 10 Constitution saving throw or suffer one level of exhaustion."

And JC has clarified, "Aspect of the Moon lets you forgo sleep when you take a long rest. The invocation doesn't remove the need for long rests."

The RAW and the RAI are aligned in this instance.

Seems straightforward:
Immune to Sleep Magics, Sleep Poisons (Drow or otherwise), any Suggestion or Geas that includes a sleep command, and the Slumber version of Imprisonment. - All in all niche, but being able to blow off a 9th level spell with a 3rd level feature is kind of cool (if unlikely).

You never have to take off your armor. If you don't sleep, you don't have penalties for sleeping in armor. Might want to invest in Prestidigitation, Ser Crotchfunk.

Keeping watch all night.

Maintain concentration on a late-day Hex.

Attune three magic items. Add EK, and swap out your bonded weapons as well.

Identify magic items by fiddling with them for an hour

If you get a lot of overnight encounters, this guy is the lynchpin: Always ready for a fight.

Maintaining concentration may be a sticking point too. I'm not sure if that constitutes as light activity since it involves magic. But it's not unreasonable to call it light activity, IMO. Also, attuning/identifying magic items requires a series of short rests, which you wouldn't be taking if you were hunkering down for a long rest.

[krugaan]

I'm infinitely amused by the fact that Tanarii, who has been shown to be wrong, is unyielding his stance while calling me (the OP) a troll.

The rule literally says "Whenever you end a 24-hour period without finishing a long rest, you must succeed on a DC 10 Constitution saving throw or suffer one level of exhaustion."

And JC has clarified, "Aspect of the Moon lets you forgo sleep when you take a long rest. The invocation doesn't remove the need for long rests."

The RAW and the RAI are aligned in this instance.

Coffeelock is no longer a build...

It's a entity.

A black hole that sucks in all attention and logic and emotion.

Not even JC can put this fire out.

There's going to be a new deity on Toril.

Java be praised.

[Mikal]

As the coffeelock waxes aspect of the moon... wanes.

Sorry had to. Aspect of the moon still sucks now tho.

[krugaan]

As the coffeelock waxes aspect of the moon... wanes.

Sorry had to. Aspect of the moon still sucks now tho.

Pretty much. Well, not all invocations can be "so good all CHA classes want to dip warlock".

For every Agonizing Blast, there must be an Aspect of the Moon. Thus is the balance maintained!...

... poorly.

[Bahamut7]

Last I checked, the rule that skipping sleep caused exhaustion was optional in the first place.

Not that this makes it different from any other rule in actual play, since DMs can and often do ignore or change things on the fly anyway. But people on the forums seem to care about this sort of thing.

In short, Aspect is the Moon is useless only if your DM uses that optional rule and follows the apparent RAI - two big ifs.

Yes, that is why I wanted to remind everyone it still can be played any way at your table if the group agrees to it.

It saddens me a bit because I like any option (feat, invocation, feature, etc) to have both Fluff and Crunch with what it brings. The Fluff always adds great RP and the crunch can help when it matters. I know not all options will be great at all times, but one can still wish.

[Caelic]

Coffeelock is no longer a build...

It's a entity.

A black hole that sucks in all attention and logic and emotion.

Not even JC can put this fire out.

There's going to be a new deity on Toril.

Java be praised.

Pun Pun is unamused by the pretender.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Pun Pun is unamused by the pretender.

But which was ruled to come first, the Pun-Pun or the Omniscifier?

[Dalebert]

Eventually, most sorcs will not be able to fail a DC 10 con save, assuming they invested a bit in con which they should. At 5th level, mine will only fail 15% of the time.

[LeonBH]

Eventually, most sorcs will not be able to fail a DC 10 con save, assuming they invested a bit in con which they should. At 5th level, mine will only fail 15% of the time.

Right, but every succeeding night adds 5 to the DC, pass or fail. On the second night, it's DC 15. On the third, it's DC 20.

It does strike me that having a Divination Wizard in the party will make this easier night after night, but they'd have to save their high Portent roll for you.

Still, the DC reaches impossibly high levels after several days and then Greater Restoration is the only way you can ensure you don't die of exhaustion after that.

[Arkhios]

Well that's stupid. Oh well, at least he answered it. Guess infinite coffeelocks will need to be Divine Souls for Greater Restoration then!

Frankly, the only thing stupid here is the concept for a CoffeeLock

[krugaan]

Frankly, the only thing stupid here is the concept for a CoffeeLock

No YOU!

/10 char

[Zene]

Vindication!

This aligns with my original reading of the Aspect of the Moon text. (I was basically shouted down in the first xge coffeelock thread for suggesting it)

Thank you for sharing. So glad JC cleared this up, though to be honest I was hoping he’d come down the other way on it.

Eh. The evidence seemed strong the other way, RAW. *shrug* It happens.

"Evidence seemed strong"?

"It happens"?

Dude.

In that thread, you flipped out on me for just suggesting there was another way to interpret it. You accused me of lying, of deliberately trying to sabotage you, and of intentionally trying to mislead everyone else in the thread.

When I held out an olive branch, suggesting we both just keep an open mind until there was a clarification, you doubled down and called me a liar again.

I didn't expect an apology or anything, but "it happens"? Damn.

[Mikal]

"Evidence seemed strong"?

"It happens"?

Dude.

In that thread, you flipped out on me for just suggesting there was another way to interpret it. You accused me of lying, of deliberately trying to sabotage you, and of intentionally trying to mislead everyone else in the thread.

When I held out an olive branch, suggesting we both just keep an open mind until there was a clarification, you doubled down and called me a liar again.

I didn't expect an apology or anything, but "it happens"? Damn.

Because you were doing all that stuff. Just because you acted that way doesn't have anything to do with the evidence or result. Apples and oranges.

[Vogie]

Frankly, this is one of the invocations I would love to have. Work, socialize, and still have 8 hours for Netflix.

Having The Dancing Goat as your Patron aside, There are a few side benefits, but it depends greatly on your particular mode of play, and your DM.
Seems straightforward:

• Immune to Sleep Magics, Sleep Poisons (Drow or otherwise), any Suggestion or Geas that includes a sleep command, and the Slumber version of Imprisonment. - All in all niche, but being able to blow off a 9th level spell with a 3rd level feature is kind of cool (if unlikely).
• You never have to take off your armor. If you don't sleep, you don't have penalties for sleeping in armor. Might want to invest in Prestidigitation, Ser Crotchfunk.
• Keeping watch all night.
• Maintain concentration on a late-day Hex.
• Attune three magic items. Add EK, and swap out your bonded weapons as well.
• Identify magic items by fiddling with them for an hour
• If you get a lot of overnight encounters, this guy is the lynchpin: Always ready for a fight.

Up for interpretation:

• What constitutes "light activity" as part of a long rest.
• Is reading light? What about writing? What about copying rituals into your Book of Ancient Secrets? Spell scrolls?
• Crafting? Workdays assumed a standard 8 hour work day. Can you craft through your long rest? Make a bunch of arrows? make a potion of healing?
• Cook a meal? Cook a large meal for a feast? Direct the kitchen staff to cook a meal?
• Eating and talking? Feasting? Carousing? Can you get blackout drunk? What about something less chemically active, like gambling?
• Doing research? Interrogating prisoners?
• How much walking is allowed during a long rest, normally? Could you stroll about leisurely for 8 hours? Drive a wagon? Steer a boat?

Not to mention that AotM allows the coffeelock to *still* opt into "java mode" for a single day, at the sole cost of a single roll to prevent exhaustion. That's still a huge benefit. They can't do it forever, and there is a downside (failing the roll and becoming exhausted), but it is still an option.

It's giving an extra ability to basically increase their Nova potential, as long as they have enough time to prepare. That's still strong.

That's even a useful tool for a DM - If you have a coffeelock, who taps into their java power, then suddenly long-rest interruptions are more prevalent, story-wise. It's a bit ironic, as the entire concept of the coffeelock was removing the tyranny of the long rest (and, the DM's ability to interrupt said long rest), and now it can be more powerful against them if timed right.

The party powers up for a huge encounter, and it goes... not the way they thought it would. Now they're on the run, without the ability to rest, with a preemptively-exhausted warlock! That's a compelling left hook to add to a story. There's a reason that the new Battlestar Galactica reboot's first episode (after the 2-episode pilot) was '33'.

[Zene]

Because you were doing all that stuff. Just because you acted that way doesn't have anything to do with the evidence or result. Apples and oranges.

So when I say it could be interpreted in more than one way;

and you call me a dishonest, manipulative liar for saying so, because there’s only one way to read the RAW and only one possible RAI;

and then it turns out you were just flat-out wrong; and it could, in fact be interpreted the other way, which is exacty what I’d said that caused you to flip out...

you’re still going to stand by those accusations?

That’s not apples to oranges, that’s just being a troll twice.

You do you, though. Have fun.

[LeonBH]

Not to mention that AotM allows the coffeelock to *still* opt into "java mode" for a single day, at the sole cost of a single roll to prevent exhaustion. That's still a huge benefit. They can't do it forever, and there is a downside (failing the roll and becoming exhausted), but it is still an option.

It's giving an extra ability to basically increase their Nova potential, as long as they have enough time to prepare. That's still strong.

That's even a useful tool for a DM - If you have a coffeelock, who taps into their java power, then suddenly long-rest interruptions are more prevalent, story-wise. It's a bit ironic, as the entire concept of the coffeelock was removing the tyranny of the long rest (and, the DM's ability to interrupt said long rest), and now it can be more powerful against them if timed right.

The party powers up for a huge encounter, and it goes... not the way they thought it would. Now they're on the run, without the ability to rest, with a preemptively-exhausted warlock! That's a compelling left hook to add to a story. There's a reason that the new Battlestar Galactica reboot's first episode (after the 2-episode pilot) was '33'.

Actually, it legitimizes this tactic, IMO. Punishing a tactic (like not taking long rests) means you can use that tactic, as long as you pay the price for it. And as far as not sleeping every other day, the risk of a DC 10 Con save is worth it for a single level of exhaustion, as long as you have ways to mitigate it pre-Greater Restoration.

It's why I personally prefer to not punish certain things, but instead talk to the players so that they aren't used at all instead.

[Easy_Lee]

The trouble with punishing long rests is that it favors certain classes. Rogues in particular, especially ranged rogues, barely need to rest. One could take the Healer feat on a thief and be good to go at all times.

At that point, the player is building a character to suit the DM and the DM's campaign rather than building what he wants to play. I have no issue with doing that. But not all players like to do that.