Changing the "Caster beats Mundane" paradigm

[RazorChain]

As for the claim that a farm requires a fairly consistent workload, if your limits can be pushed further than a real world human's, then a rural environment has plenty of opportunities for you to do so. Real-world farmers have found uses for all sorts of machines, vehicles, and draft animals for centuries, if not millennia, almost any of which could be replaced by a human if they could be strong enough. And one would presume that one human with the strength of a shire horse is cheaper than a human plus a shire horse would be.

Lathes (for making tools) used to be horse-powered -- with your setting change, those can be replaced with human-powered lathes, for a substantial saving. You can plough fields by hand and do as well as a horse- or ox-drawn plough; carry goods to market without the aid of a vehicle or animals; quickly dam watercourses to flood unused fields with rich silts (or to avert flooding, of course); and more.

Your setting change would result in far less technology and far fewer animals being needed in the fields, and you'd likely see people finding their way to cities, monasteries, temples, etc. far 'sooner' than in the real world -- where they would presumably become priests and philosophers. With abundant priests and philosophers, and with physical types being both comparatively rare and extremely valuable in the fields, forges, and workshops, magic-users would become incredibly abundant compared with D&D, potentially forcing purely-physical fighters out of the armed forces entirely. I don't think such a setting would have anything close to the traditional D&D fighter or rogue, except possibly as "magitechnician" archetypes (with power armour and warbeasts and mechs, oh my!).

While it sounds pretty cool, I don't think this really accomplishes your goals.

See this I like, this is taking that humans have a higher upper limit to it's logical conclusion. Why the heck do you need an ox if you're strong enough to plow yourself. The basis of economy is how much food you can produce per person. If one guy can produce enough food for 10 then the other 9 are free to do somehting else....and magic hasn't even entered the picture.

So in the end we have farmers that are very strong, tough and have massive stamina and probably other workers. And if you don't need any gift to study magic only intelligence then you can mass produce wizard through the education system. In the end if you get resurrected or not will just be simple economics...are you worth it?

Will this lead to a split caste system where those who study will become super smart or wise, the workforce will become super strong and tough and then we have leaders/entertainers who are super charismatic?

[Jormengand]

My view is that there is a need to justify not doing it.

I don't want to use magic. There's your justification for me not using magic.

[RazorChain]

I don't want to use magic. There's your justification for me not using magic.

Don't use magic then!

It's that simple. Just say that your veteran uses his superior skill to cut through that force wall. His superior will to escape the shackles of the wizards mind control. His superior thoughness to keep fighting when lesser men have succumbed. His superior mobility to fly through the air and rain arrows on his enemies. His superior speed to move between to places instantaneously.

The problem is as others have pointed out there is a limit how far you can stretch this. You can call these mundane abilities to yourself but others might not agree with you.

[Jormengand]

Don't use magic then!

It's that simple. Just say that your veteran uses his superior skill to cut through that force wall. His superior will to escape the shackles of the wizards mind control. His superior thoughness to keep fighting when lesser men have succumbed. His superior mobility to fly through the air and rain arrows on his enemies. His superior speed to move between to places instantaneously.

The problem is as others have pointed out there is a limit how far you can stretch this. You can call these mundane abilities to yourself but others might not agree with you.

I mean, apart from unaided flight, "Cutting through things that have few well-defined characteristics anyway", "Having a will save", "Having hit points", "Shooting things" and "Running" aren't exactly magical. But there's always someone, somewhere, (cough Cosi cough) saying that they are and that having a mundane character is a terrible thing and I'm a terrible foolish person for attempting it.

[Max_Killjoy]

"Moving between places instantly" becomes magic (of some sort) quickly.


To me, the core problem is one of mismatch -- mismatch in power scale between types of characters, and mismatch between system and desired gameplay and desired setting.

If you really want your "unmagic" characters to be really, really unmagic, and based purely on skill, will, and wits, then you work backwards from that, set up how powerful and useful magic is from that balance point, and design/choose your setting and system around what you want to do.

Starting out with D&D (particularly 3.x and friends) is doomed to fail as a coherent setup with a stricture to "keep the unmagic unmagic".

[Jormengand]

"Moving between places instantly" becomes magic (of some sort) quickly.

I mean, the fact that movement is instantaneous is just an artefact of 3.5's turn-based system (and most RPGs' turn-based systems). Sure, teleportation is magic, but you don't usually need teleportation to solve any problems that walking (and the veteran's other abilities) can't.

Starting out with D&D (particularly 3.x and friends) is doomed to fail as a coherent setup with a stricture to "keep the unmagic unmagic".

Apparently not, all things considered.

[RazorChain]

I mean, the fact that movement is instantaneous is just an artefact of 3.5's turn-based system (and most RPGs' turn-based systems). Sure, teleportation is magic, but you don't usually need teleportation to solve any problems that walking (and the veteran's other abilities) can't.



Apparently not, all things considered.

Not that I want to discourage you from doing what you want in 3.5, but for me it just keeps harder to explain away how the mundane still keeps being mundane at high levels. Some maintain that Hercules is a mundane even though he's as strong as a Titan in a world where Titans are the old gods and literally carries the heavens on his shoulders. So this is all a matter of perspective, what you consider what is mundane and what not.

For me everything that crosses the boundary of what a man can do today is superhuman with some fuzz around the edges. I mean if some character can run the 100m in 9 seconds flat, half a second faster than Usain Bolt then I won't call that super, it's the fasterst man alive. But if a character runs the 100m in 5 seconds then that is clearly a superhuman...or liftin a ton or jumping 5 meters into the air or surviving a 100 meters fall and picking himself up and contine walking like nothing happended*.

I have nothing against superhuman, heroic, legendary, mythical campaigns. But when that barbarian gets so angry that he ignores the wounds that would kill a normal man, breaks off the shackles of the wizards spell, jumps over a 15 meter (50') chasm to cleave the evil wizard down to his navel. Then in my book it's alright to call that a superhuman rage, doesn't have to be magic of any sort, just superhuman. Something an ordinary human can't do.



*I don't care if somebody managed to survive a fall from a plane once, we've already discussed that to death and I proposed the idea of throwing a lot of cute, fluffy puppies from the Empire state building and see how many would survive, people didn't like that idea. So if you aren't ready to jump from a plane without a parachute for the sake of scientific experiment then that argument is invalid.

[Chaosticket]

"Moving between places instantly" becomes magic (of some sort) quickly.


To me, the core problem is one of mismatch -- mismatch in power scale between types of characters, and mismatch between system and desired gameplay and desired setting.

If you really want your "unmagic" characters to be really, really unmagic, and based purely on skill, will, and wits, then you work backwards from that, set up how powerful and useful magic is from that balance point, and design/choose your setting and system around what you want to do.

Starting out with D&D (particularly 3.x and friends) is doomed to fail as a coherent setup with a stricture to "keep the unmagic unmagic".

I see this going round and round.

In my most obstinate state of mind I have had days like this.

I have a personal attachment to making Sharpshooter characters. My first Pathfinder character attempt was a Bounty Hunter but it didnt work. Game rules make it difficult if not on possible. High tier play like this thread is about means even with all that work its not a high tier build. So after finally accepting that I adapted.

Now I changed my plan to keep the Concept but using an Arcane Trickster Build.

If you want to make a high tier character with low tier class then youre going to keep running into dead ends. I suggest you either adapt to the system or use a different edition such as 5th or another Rpg.

I would hope that you find a group more into roleplay than rollplay.

[Max_Killjoy]

I mean, the fact that movement is instantaneous is just an artefact of 3.5's turn-based system (and most RPGs' turn-based systems). Sure, teleportation is magic, but you don't usually need teleportation to solve any problems that walking (and the veteran's other abilities) can't.

There's a difference between a nearly-unavoidable system artifact, and actual instantaneous movement. I can't believe that even needs to be said.

Aside from that, teleportation and running have so many differences as "special effects" that I don't even know where to begin -- especially flawless teleportation (whatever that's actually called). Can't run across a gorge or chasm, can't run through a door or wall instantly, usually can't run behind someone or onto a ledge above them without being noticed, etc, etc, etc.

[Jormengand]

Not that I want to discourage you from doing what you want in 3.5, but for me it just keeps harder to explain away how the mundane still keeps being mundane at high levels. Some maintain that Hercules is a mundane even though he's as strong as a Titan in a world where Titans are the old gods and literally carries the heavens on his shoulders. So this is all a matter of perspective, what you consider what is mundane and what not.

For me everything that crosses the boundary of what a man can do today is superhuman with some fuzz around the edges. I mean if some character can run the 100m in 9 seconds flat, half a second faster than Usain Bolt then I won't call that super, it's the fasterst man alive. But if a character runs the 100m in 5 seconds then that is clearly a superhuman...or liftin a ton or jumping 5 meters into the air or surviving a 100 meters fall and picking himself up and contine walking like nothing happended*.

I have nothing against superhuman, heroic, legendary, mythical campaigns. But when that barbarian gets so angry that he ignores the wounds that would kill a normal man, breaks off the shackles of the wizards spell, jumps over a 15 meter (50') chasm to cleave the evil wizard down to his navel. Then in my book it's alright to call that a superhuman rage, doesn't have to be magic of any sort, just superhuman. Something an ordinary human can't do.



*I don't care if somebody managed to survive a fall from a plane once, we've already discussed that to death and I proposed the idea of throwing a lot of cute, fluffy puppies from the Empire state building and see how many would survive, people didn't like that idea. So if you aren't ready to jump from a plane without a parachute for the sake of scientific experiment then that argument is invalid.

The veteran can't jump a 50 ft chasm (disclaimer: there is probably some veteran build that can jump a 50 ft cavern by 20th level, but that's probably nothing to do with the veteran class itself and more to do with some silly mix of feats). He can break the wizard's spell every bit as much as the fighter can. He can survive a fall because D&D hit points are like that (I should point out that the "If you aren't willing to jump from a plane without a parachute/drop puppies off the ESB, no-one could survive doing that" argument is like guy at the gym, only it's more like person at home who doesn't exercise very much or puppy on the empire state building apparently. Just because I can't doesn't mean the veteran can't. Incidentally, it happens that the veteran probably shouldn't be able to).

The veteran doesn't need to have supernatural strength because he also defies supernatural weakness. Unlike a fighter, who has the exceptional ability to stab someone with a longsword twenty times and not have them keel over and die, if a veteran puts five feet of steel down your throat, you die. Unlike the fighter who has a low but non-negligible chance to resist being mind controlled, if you try to use wibbly-wobbly mindy-windy stuff on the veteran, you fail. If you're a flying, firebreathing, physics-defying lizard and a veteran shoots you through the face with a ballista, you lose. If you're trying to protect yourself with a second-level spell against someone who shoots people with normal missiles for a living, it doesn't work. By not enforcing the weaknesses that don't have to be part of the veteran concept, you can go a long, long, long way.

There's a difference between a nearly-unavoidable system artifact, and actual instantaneous movement. I can't believe that even needs to be said.

Aside from that, teleportation and running have so many differences as "special effects" that I don't even know where to begin -- especially flawless teleportation (whatever that's actually called). Can't run across a gorge or chasm, can't run through a door or wall instantly, usually can't run behind someone or onto a ledge above them without being noticed, etc, etc, etc.

To be clear, veterans don't actually teleport in any regard other than "Oh lookit a naturally-occuring portal", though I admit to Find Rift being my least favourite veteran ability. They do move, though. Unsurprisingly.

[Max_Killjoy]

The veteran doesn't need to have supernatural strength because he also defies supernatural weakness. Unlike a fighter, who has the exceptional ability to stab someone with a longsword twenty times and not have them keel over and die, if a veteran puts five feet of steel down your throat, you die. Unlike the fighter who has a low but non-negligible chance to resist being mind controlled, if you try to use wibbly-wobbly mindy-windy stuff on the veteran, you fail. If you're a flying, firebreathing, physics-defying lizard and a veteran shoots you through the face with a ballista, you lose. If you're trying to protect yourself with a second-level spell against someone who shoots people with normal missiles for a living, it doesn't work. By not enforcing the weaknesses that don't have to be part of the veteran concept, you can go a long, long, long way.

So it's a class almost entirely built around no-selling everyone else's abilities, and bypassing what are otherwise the rules to insta-kill things.

Right.

I see this going round and round.

In my most obstinate state of mind I have had days like this.

I have a personal attachment to making Sharpshooter characters. My first Pathfinder character attempt was a Bounty Hunter but it didnt work. Game rules make it difficult if not on possible. High tier play like this thread is about means even with all that work its not a high tier build. So after finally accepting that I adapted.

Now I changed my plan to keep the Concept but using an Arcane Trickster Build.

If you want to make a high tier character with low tier class then youre going to keep running into dead ends. I suggest you either adapt to the system or use a different edition such as 5th or another Rpg.

I would hope that you find a group more into roleplay than rollplay.

To be clear, I walked away from anything D&D or d20 sometime between 3.0 and 3.x/PF, and I've never looked back.

My arguments in this thread have been less about pushing my own preference for how to fix the central issue, and more about presenting a framework for people to work out what they actually want and how to solve it for themselves, because there is no one-size-fits-all solution.

[Jormengand]

So it's a class almost entirely built around no-selling everyone else's abilities, and bypassing what are otherwise the rules to insta-kill things.

Right.

I mean, it's a class based around no-selling the abilities which normally no-sell martials, in part, yes. You can't do your job if you can't bypass the wizard's immunity to death by hit point damage. It's not like it doesn't do a bunch of other stuff, though.

EDIT: I could make the exact complaint you did about the wizard. Protection from blah no-sells blah. Death magic "Bypasses what are otherwise the rules" (because every class feature and spell bypasses what are otherwise the rules) to insta-kill things. I don't see what your issue is.

[Chaosticket]

Okay so is there actually a class called Veteran or is it a homebrew?

Also if you want superheroes with powers like invulnerability please just say it.

Superpower are not mundane except in Superhero Roleplaying games.

[Max_Killjoy]

I mean, it's a class based around no-selling the abilities which normally no-sell martials, in part, yes. You can't do your job if you can't bypass the wizard's immunity to death by hit point damage. It's not like it doesn't do a bunch of other stuff, though.

EDIT: I could make the exact complaint you did about the wizard. Protection from blah no-sells blah. Death magic "Bypasses what are otherwise the rules" (because every class feature and spell bypasses what are otherwise the rules) to insta-kill things. I don't see what your issue is.

Yeah, and you kinda make my point for me in saying that. The veteran isn't a solution to the problems, it's a classic case of "two wrongs don't make a right". It's doing the sorts of bad-for-the-game things that high-level spellcasters do, just putting "no, no, it's not magic, don't you dare say it's magic" fig leaf over them.

[Jormengand]

Yeah, and you kinda make my point for me in saying that. The veteran isn't a solution to the problems, it's a classic case of "two wrongs don't make a right". It's doing the sorts of bad-for-the-game things that high-level spellcasters do,

Yes, yes, the high power level is "Bad for the game". I've heard it before. But no crap it's doing the same kind of stuff that actually good classes do; it is an actually good class. It needs that level of stuff to compete. It's weird that after all this, people are complaining that veteran is too GOOD.

just putting "no, no, it's not magic, don't you dare say it's magic" fig leaf over them.

Oh, cut it out. Shooting people and those people ACTUALLY DYING isn't magic.

[Max_Killjoy]

Yes, yes, the high power level is "Bad for the game". I've heard it before. But no crap it's doing the same kind of stuff that actually good classes do; it is an actually good class. It needs that level of stuff to compete. It's weird that after all this, people are complaining that veteran is too GOOD.

I'd make the same complaint about the veteran that I make about several other classes.

Oh, cut it out. Shooting people and those people ACTUALLY DYING isn't magic.

That's a problem with the system, not a problem with any of the classes. If you don't like other characters not dying when you stab them, then a system with high-scaling abstract Hit Points isn't the system for you. Hell, it's one of the things that made my wash my hands of D&D/d20 myself. But in terms of mechanics, and in terms of effects on other characters, bypassing HP is bypassing HP.

As you describe it, this class is doing the same sorts of things that spellcasters do in terms of bypassing in-setting reality and bypassing how the system otherwise works for "mundane" characters, and just slapping a "no magic, nope" veneer over it, which is where that part of the comment came in.

Or to put it another way, in D&D, shooting people and ignoring their Hit Points so that they fall over dead regardless, is a kind of magic. Even if you don't call it that. Be they ever so wonky and broken a mechanic, those high-scaling HP represent the in-game reality, and ignoring reality is ignoring reality. Magic is as magic does.

Adding more "save or die" and "save or suck" abilities to the game just adds to the problem.

[RazorChain]

Yes, yes, the high power level is "Bad for the game". I've heard it before. But no crap it's doing the same kind of stuff that actually good classes do; it is an actually good class. It needs that level of stuff to compete. It's weird that after all this, people are complaining that veteran is too GOOD.

I think nobody is criticising if the veteran is a good class or not. I don't have a clue really.

Oh, cut it out. Shooting people and those people ACTUALLY DYING isn't magic.

Like Max has explained that bypassing or ignoring HP is bad from a game design principle. Save or Die is bad in the way it disregards HP which is supposed to be the measure of the characters life. So giving everybody "Make Your Save Or Now You Die ability" at high levels doesn't solve any problems. If it worked we could just have implemented it at lower levels as well.

I understand that you're trying to give the veteran a fighting chance against the Wizard, so he doesn't get obliterated while trying to get through the wizards defenses and HP pool.

Ever increasing HP serve only one purpose and that is to make lower level content irrelevant because everbodies damage output will increase with their level.

[Jormengand]

To be on par with a T1 casters who are literally defined to break the game, it's understandable that you would need to do some things that break the game. That doesn't mean that it's not possible for mundanes to be as effective in casters in 3.5, though.

And the argument that "In D&D, coup de graces are magic" kinda falls on its face. All sorts of things bypass hit points and kill you. Why shouldn't "Veterans" be one of those things?

Or would you rather it be like rogue, dealing so many arbitrarily-many +d6s of damage that it kills you with a penknife anyway?

[Chaosticket]

My two cents on this.

Save or Die spells are supposed to keep its effect useful while scaling. A lot of spells end up useless as they dont grow or do so too slowly. Non-damage versions versions of everything from Sleep on up still exist.

Harm from older editions could reduce the target to 1d4 hit points possibly from a starting values in THOUSANDS. It was meant to be a high risk, high reward. That it was but it also was usually a Clerics one Turn kill combo.

Toning spells like to actual damage values is much more fair. However that can also make it seem like there are no guaranteed death methods and instead its like a videogame. What happens when you fall into a bottomless hole, say you need a class that can avoid all traps 100percent?

[RazorChain]

To be on par with a T1 casters who are literally defined to break the game, it's understandable that you would need to do some things that break the game. That doesn't mean that it's not possible for mundanes to be as effective in casters in 3.5, though.

And the argument that "In D&D, coup de graces are magic" kinda falls on its face. All sorts of things bypass hit points and kill you. Why shouldn't "Veterans" be one of those things?

Or would you rather it be like rogue, dealing so many arbitrarily-many +d6s of damage that it kills you with a penknife anyway?

I'm very well aware of the limitations of D&D and the HP system and the Class/Niche protection.

In most other systems there are just hit locations so everybody is a rogue. You just aim for the heart, neck , face etc. D&D locked this away behind a niche protection called backstab. For all the D&D system cares there is nothing stopping the rogue from killing people with needles that do +Xd6 in damage (depending on level) so long as he strikes when you are unprepared or in the back.

Coup de grace is D&D adressing complaints from players why they had to use 10 minutes to kill a bound and gagged opponent because he was protected by the wonky HP pool. We all now ramming a sword through somebodies eye socked while he's helpess is a good way to kill him. The 10 minutes represent the old rounds where each was 1 minute.

To be on par with a T1 casters who are literally defined to break the game, it's understandable that you would need to do some things that break the game. That doesn't mean that it's not possible for mundanes to be as effective in casters in 3.5, though.

We know that a high level caster is literally able to rape the system six days till sunday and the mundane has no chance. Whatever you will do will not fix the mundane against the caster. You can give him powers to negate the caster but your explanations of how he does it will never suffice for me. I will call you out on that you have made the mundane superhuman. In your mind he might be perfectly mundane, but to me that has the has the mundane benchmark in the real life what a human being can do. You have to convince me (and probably others) on the how and why the mundane can negate all the casters powers.

So if you say that the mundane made a circle out of salt to protect himself from magic because the laws of magic dictate that magical beings or magic can't cross the salt then all it tells me is salt stops magic and salt prices will soar. It also tells me that everybody can stop magic with salt. Telling me that the mundane can find magical rifst in reality and travel through them tells me that there are magical rifts and if one mundane can find them then everybody with the right training can. Taken to it's logical conclusion places of rifts will be like bridges over rivers. Somebody wants to control them and tax them for their ease of travel.

[Jormengand]

You have to convince me (and probably others) on the how and why the mundane can negate all the casters powers.

Okay, look at it this way:

People in real life can't resist magic only because they never have the opportunity to try: there's no magic to resist. This is true whether "Resist magic" means "Survive a ray of frost spell" or "Save against a dominate person spell" or "Shoot straight through a protection from arrows spell". Anyone can do the first fairly easily (even a commoner only has a 1 in 3 chance to be knocked out, and then they might or might not bleed out from there). Doing the second is harder, but it's impossible not to be able to do it. Doing the third requires a specific class feature.

But if you have a magical spell which summons a monster (like summon monster), you can overcome that spell with good enough sword power. If you have a magical spell that creates a wall of ice (such as wall of ice), you can overcome that spell with sword power. If you have a spell that creates some magic armour (such as mage armour, you can pierce that magical protection if you have a special ability that lets you do that (such as the Pierce Magical Protection feat, Complete Arcane p. 82, extraordinary ability). If a creature is hiding behind a protection from arrows spell, you can't remove that with Pierce Magical Protection, but it turns out that if you're a veteran, you can remove that with the veteran's Mortal Wound or You Have No Power Over Me tricks. Why is cutting through mage armour okay but ignoring DR evilbadmagic?

I'll always be against ki-power-not-magic and lifting without limits, but arguing, in effect, that will saves are magical is ridiculous.

[RazorChain]

Okay, look at it this way:

People in real life can't resist magic only because they never have the opportunity to try: there's no magic to resist. This is true whether "Resist magic" means "Survive a ray of frost spell" or "Save against a dominate person spell" or "Shoot straight through a protection from arrows spell". Anyone can do the first fairly easily (even a commoner only has a 1 in 3 chance to be knocked out, and then they might or might not bleed out from there). Doing the second is harder, but it's impossible not to be able to do it. Doing the third requires a specific class feature.

But if you have a magical spell which summons a monster (like summon monster), you can overcome that spell with good enough sword power. If you have a magical spell that creates a wall of ice (such as wall of ice), you can overcome that spell with sword power. If you have a spell that creates some magic armour (such as mage armour, you can pierce that magical protection if you have a special ability that lets you do that (such as the Pierce Magical Protection feat, Complete Arcane p. 82, extraordinary ability). If a creature is hiding behind a protection from arrows spell, you can't remove that with Pierce Magical Protection, but it turns out that if you're a veteran, you can remove that with the veteran's Mortal Wound or You Have No Power Over Me tricks. Why is cutting through mage armour okay but ignoring DR evilbadmagic?

I'll always be against ki-power-not-magic and lifting without limits, but arguing, in effect, that will saves are magical is ridiculous.

Pierce Magical Protection
( Complete Arcane, p. 82)

[General]

You can overcome the magical protections of your enemies.

Prerequisite
Mage Slayer (CAr) , CON 13,

Benefit
Your contempt for magic is so fierce that as a standard action you can make a melee attack that ignores any bonuses to Armor Class granted by spells (including spell trigger or spell completion effects created by magic items such as wands or potions). If you deal damage to your opponent, you also instantly and automatically dispel all that opponent's spells and spell effects that grant a bonus to Armor Class.




I looked up pierce magical protection. Now the mundane can defeat magic with contempt as his weapon. Now let's just take this to it's logical conclusion :You can use contempt to dispel magical effects.
So I guess you are right. The mundane can defeat magic with contempt as his weapon.

[Jormengand]

I looked up pierce magical protection. Now the mundane can defeat magic with contempt as his weapon. Now let's just take this to it's logical conclusion :You can use contempt to dispel magical effects.
So I guess you are right. The mundane can defeat magic with contempt as his weapon.

Weirdly, I don't think it literally means that you pick up your contempt for magic and beat the enemy's mage armour spell up with it.

[RazorChain]

Weirdly, I don't think it literally means that you pick up your contempt for magic and beat the enemy's mage armour spell up with it.

I'm just seeing how the D&D world kinda crumbles by peoples contempt for magic


Joe Hero: "Hello peasants! I'm here to save you from the Necromancer and his evil undead minions"

Peasant #1: "No worry, his magic didn't stand up to old man Harris' contempt"

Peasant #2: "There is a lot of scorn in this village, Aunt Sofia took care of the Evil Overlord last week, mocked him right out of his tower with her disdainful quips. Grabbed him by the ear and showered him in contempt. Poor fella only lasted minutes under her scorn"

Joe Hero: "I guess then I'm off to the desert of doom then, where evil magic have sucked the life out of the....."

Peasant #1 Interrupts "'Already taken care of son, we call it happy valley now!"

[2D8HP]

...Peasant #1: "No worry, his magic didn't stand up to old man Harris' contempt"...

...Peasant #2: "There is a lot of scorn in this village, Aunt Sofia took care of the Evil Overlord last week, mocked him right out of his tower with her disdainful quips. Grabbed him by the ear and showered him in contempt. Poor fella only lasted minutes under her scorn"..

.
I see nothing wrong with those scenerios.

[Florian]

I'm just seeing how the D&D world kinda crumbles by peoples contempt for magic

Tja. Vance-style magic is just you trying to superimpose your version of reality using a spell. No one said that this superimposition can't be opposed. PF is very clear about how the interaction with SR, saves, feats and class feature that counter spells work, whole game systems like L5R and to an extend WoD Mage or even Ars Magicka are based around this.

(Yeah, I like that an PF Barbarian can literally kick a wish in the nuts and undo it)

[lesser_minion]

Oh, cut it out. Shooting people and those people ACTUALLY DYING isn't magic.

On the other hand, drawing power from a vow never to use magic, to the point that breaking your vow causes you to forget most of your class features, very much is magic.

And unless I'm missing something, your proposed class can kill the tarrasque from 3rd level -- take Always Strike First, Combat Coup, and Killing Blow. You always win initiative and act in the surprise round; combat coup means that your coup de grace works even if the enemy has regeneration against the damage type you're dealing, isn't helpless, or has a clause in its stat block explicitly preventing it from being instantly killed; and Killing Blow causes the combat coup to automatically kill any crit-susceptible enemy without recourse to a saving throw (a "successful" coup de grace attempt can only be one that "succeeds" in killing the target -- the only checks involved are the fortitude save to not die).

You then take Heroic Killing Blow and Volley of Arrows, allowing you to automatically kill everyone in a 20ft. radius around an arbitrary point of your choosing within 1100 feet (which you can increase to at least 2200 feet), while simultaneously making you the worst "tag" player on the planet, since you can't turn off the "Heroic Killing Blow" ability while you have it, resulting in your touch attacks to tag the other players causing automatic instant death.

At 10th level, anything that can, in any way, be characterised as the result of any form of magic neither has nor provides any recourse against any of your attacks whatsoever.

Horrible abilities aren't somehow OK just because some casters also have horrible abilities.

[Jormengand]

On the other hand, drawing power from a vow never to use magic, to the point that breaking your vow causes you to forget most of your class features, very much is magic.

It's almost like people actually gain strength from conviction in real life.

Horrible abilities aren't somehow OK just because some casters also have horrible abilities.

Horrible abilities are necessary to, need I remind you, "Chang[e] the "Caster beats Mundane" paradigm", which I am given to believe is the point.

You can't say "Oh well veteran doesn't count because it's OP". Of course veteran is OP. Wizard is OP. Veteran has to be OP to achieve its entire purpose in life.

[PhoenixPhyre]

It's almost like people actually gain strength from conviction in real life.



Horrible abilities are necessary to, need I remind you, "Chang[e] the "Caster beats Mundane" paradigm", which I am given to believe is the point.

You can't say "Oh well veteran doesn't count because it's OP". Of course veteran is OP. Wizard is OP. Veteran has to be OP to achieve its entire purpose in life.

Or we can meet in the middle, perhaps? Slaughter a few of those sacred cows that make T1 classes (conveniently all casters) able to break the game (remember that's inherent in the tier definition!) and relax the tight reign on so-called "plausibility" for martials that prevents them from reaching higher tiers?

And I'd like to remind everyone that the biggest disparity is not in combat killing power. It's in being able to do anything else while also being able to be relevant in combat.

[Max_Killjoy]

It's almost like people actually gain strength from conviction in real life.

At least in real life, you can't will your way into being bulletproof, or walk through a reactor safely because you have scorn & contempt for radiation.

Horrible abilities are necessary to, need I remind you, "Chang[e] the "Caster beats Mundane" paradigm", which I am given to believe is the point.

You can't say "Oh well veteran doesn't count because it's OP". Of course veteran is OP. Wizard is OP. Veteran has to be OP to achieve its entire purpose in life.

This is mainly informative about the high-level wizard.