[3.5 Base Class] The Draconic Ascendant [PEACH!]

[Jarian]

Draconic Ascendant


Streray and and Stryer Imnal, twin Human Green Draconic Ascendants.

Class Skills
The Draconic Ascendant's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (local) (Int), Knowledge (the planes) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Speak Language (none), Spot (Wis), and Swim (Str)
Skills Points at Each Level: 4 + int

Alignment: Any. Despite certain types of dragons having a predilection toward different alignments, their power has no effect on the Ascendant's alignment; an Ascendant with the power of chromatic dragons could easily be a champion of good, while one with the abilities of a gold dragon could be a cold-blooded murderer.
Hit Dice: d8

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Spell Level

1st| +1 | +2 | +0 | +2 |Blood of the Ancients| 1

2nd| +2 | +3| +0 | +3 |Breath Weapon (1d6)|1

3rd| +3 | +3 | +1 | +3 |Bonus Feat, Breath Weapon (2d6), Draconic Weapon (Called)|1

4th| +4 | +4 | +1 | +4 |Breath Weapon (3d6), Scales of the Ancients, First Awakening|2

5th| +5 | +4 | +1| +4 |Blindsense (30 ft), Energy Resistance| 2

6th| +6/+1 | +5 | +2 | +5 |Breath Weapon (4d6), Wings of the Ancestor (30 ft., poor)|2

7th| +7/+2 | +5 | +2 | +5 |Breath Weapon (5d6), Draconic Weapon (Energy), Keen Senses|3

8th| +8/+3 | +6 | +2 | +6 |Breath Weapon (6d6), Wings of the Ancestor (60 ft., Wing Attack), Second Awakening |3

9th| +9/+4 | +6 | +3 | +6 |Blindsense (60ft), Frightful Presence|3

10th| +10/+5 | +7 | +3 | +7 |Breath Weapon (7d6), Wings of the Ancestor (80 ft.)| 4

11th| +11/+6/+1 | +7 | +3 | +7 |Breath Weapon (8d6), Bonus Feat, Draconic Weapon (Burst), Spell Resistance|4

12th| +12/+7/+2 | +8 | +4 | +8 |Breath Weapon (9d6), Wings of the Ancestor (100 ft.), Third Awakening |4

13th| +13/+8/+3 | +8 | +4 | +8 |Immunities, Tail Slap|5

14th| +14/+9/+4 | +9 | +4 | +9 |Breath Weapon (10d6), Wings of the Ancestor (120 ft.)|5

15th| +15/+10/+5 | +9 | +5 | +9 |Breath Weapon (11d6), Draconic Weapon (Spellstrike), Dragon Form|5

16th| +16/+11/+6/+1 | +10 | +5 | +10 |Breath Weapon (12d6), Wings of the Ancestor (140 ft.), Fourth Awakening |6

17th| +17/+12/+7/+2 | +10 | +5 | +10 |Hoard Magic|6

18th| +18/+13/+8/+3 | +11 | +6 | +11 |Breath Weapon (13d6), Tail Sweep, Wings of the Ancestor (160 ft.)|6

19th| +19/+14/+9/+4 | +11 | +6 | +11 |Breath Weapon (14d6), Bonus Feat, Draconic Weapon (Bane)|7

20th| +20/+15/+10/+5 | +12 | +6 | +12 |Breath Weapon (15d6), True Awakening, Fivefold Breath, Wings of the Ancestor (200 ft.)| 7[/table]

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Draconic Ascendants are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with all forms of armor, and with light and heavy shields (but not tower shields).

Spell-Like Abilities: Throughout a Draconic Ascendant's journey to true awakening, he gains a number of spell-like abilities. At each level, the Draconic Ascendant gains a single spell-like ability from either the sorcerer spell list or the cleric spell list, usable once per day. The list the Ascendant draws from is determined by his Blood of the Ancients ability. The spell level of the chosen spell-like ability cannot exceed the maximum spell level available to him, as shown on the table above.

The Draconic Ascendant may select the same spell-like ability multiple times, gaining an additional daily use of that ability each time. If he selects a spell of a level lower than his maximum, he instead gains two daily uses of that spell-like ability. If he selects a spell of two or more levels lower than his maximum, he instead gains three daily uses of that spell-like ability.

To use a given spell-like ability, the Ascendant must have a Charisma (for chromatic) or Wisdom (for metallic) score of 10 + the effective spell level of the spell-like ability. The saving throw, if any, for a Draconic Ascendant's spell-like abilities are 10 + effective spell level + his relevant ability modifier.

The Draconic Ascendant may ignore any materials or foci normally required for the spells he selects as spell-like abilities, provided they cost no more than 100 gp each. If the material or focal component for a spell exceeds this price, he must supply it or lose experience points equal to one-fifth the total gp cost of the missing foci and components to use the spell-like ability. The Draconic Ascendant must pay any experience point cost a selected spell would normally have to use it as a spell-like ability.

Blood of the Ancients (Ex): At 1st level, the latent draconic power in the Ascendant's blood activates, granting him some measure of insight into the Great Prophecies. When and how an Ascendant's draconic heritage manifests varies wildly; for some, it occurs at asolescence. Others could live decades of their lives without knowing of their heritage before finally discovering the strange knowledge of the Prophecies in their dreams. Regardless, once the power awakens, its effects are immediate.

When this ability is obtained, the Draconic Ascendant chooses a type of dragon (chromatic or metallic), and a specific member of that type (black, blue, green, red, or white for chromatic, brass, bronze, copper, gold, or silver for metallic). At the DM's discretion, other types of dragons (such as planar dragons, from the Draconomicon) may become available; consult with him to determine how such a dragon would alter the Ascendant's abilities.

If the Ascendant already has a predetermined heritage (such as by being a Silverbrow Human, or a Sorcerer who has taken Draconic Heritage feats), his Blood of the Ancients ability is automatically keyed to that dragon type.

At 1st level, the Draconic Ascendant gains the Dragontouched ^{(Dragon Magic, p. 18)}) feat, even if he does not meet the normal requirements. In addition to the normal effects, this ability allows the Ascendant to fuel Draconic Heritage feats with his spell-like abilities, even if they would be cleric spells rather than sorcerer spells, and grants him the knowledge of the Draconic language.

At 5th level, the Ascendant's evolving knowledge of the Prophecies allows him to better predict future events. Once per day, he may use augury as a spell-like ability. In addition, once per week he may use commune as a spell-like ability to answer one question; however, this answer is drawn from the Prophecies, not any divine knowledge. The question may only be answered accurately insofar as living dragons native to the plane most involved with the question are aware. If a question involves a plane without dragons, or a matter transcending mortal matters, the Ascendant gleans no information from this ability.

At 10th level, the Ascendant has become important enough to the workings of the Prophecies that they will make rare special exceptions for him. Once per month, when the Draconic Ascendant would take lethal damage, he may sacrifice a daily use of a spell-like ability to generate a shield that absorbs some of the damage. Generating the shield is a nonaction; the Ascendant may form it even when he is helpless or unconscious. The shield absorbs an amount of damage taken from the time it is activated until the end of the Ascendant's turn (if formed on his turn) or the start of his next turn (if formed on another creature's turn) equal to half his class level times the level of the sacrificed spell-like ability. This shield does not generate temporary hitpoints, but pulls at the workings of the world to lessen damage done - a sword thrust may suddenly catch on one of the Ascendant's scales, a fireball may create an unexpected gap in its area of effect, and so on. Effects that do not deal hitpoint damage are unafftected by this shield of altered chance.

At 15th level, the Prophecies grant the Ascendant sudden bursts of preternatural clarity at seemingly random moments. Once per day, the Ascendant may either reroll a single attack roll or saving throw, or force an enemy within line of sight to do the same. The Ascendant may use this ability even after the outcome of the roll has been determined, but must alter attack rolls before damage is determined.

At 20th level, the Prophecies make a permanent exception for the Ascendant, refusing to allow such an important figure in their future die without a chance. The Ascendant can never be caught flat-footed except by creatures with twenty or more hit dice than himself or ten or more class levels, and he may always act in surprise rounds.

Breath Weapon (Su): At 2nd level, the Draconic Ascendant gains a breath weapon that may be used as a standard action every 1d4 rounds. At first, this breath weapon deals 1d6 damage of the appropriate type, but this damage increases steadily as the Ascendant gains levels, as seen on the class table. A Reflex save, DC 10 + 1/2 Draconic Ascendant level + Con modifier halves the damage of the breath weapon.

The type of damage done and the shape of the breath weapon are based on the Ascendant's Blood of the Ancients ability, as seen on the table below. Line breath weapons have a range of 20 feet plus 5 feet for every Draconic Ascendant class level, while cone breath weapons have half this range.

{table=head]Heritage | Damage Type | Shape
Black | Acid | Line
Blue | Electric | Line
Green | Acid | Cone
Red | Fire | Cone
White | Cold | Cone
Brass | Fire | Line
Bronze | Electric | Line
Copper | Acid | Line
Gold | Fire | Cone
Silver | Cold | Cone[/table]

Bonus Feat: At 3rd level, and again at 11th and 19th, the Draconic Ascendant gains a bonus feat for which he meets the prerequisites. These bonus feats must come from the Fighter bonus feat list, or be a feat with the [Draconic] tag or a metabreath feat.

Draconic Weapon (Su): Starting at 3rd level, the Draconic Ascendant gains the ability to form a metaphysical link with a melee weapon, granting it additional abilities. To do so, the Ascendant must meditate uninterrupted for eight hours, after which he becomes attuned to the weapon. The longer the weapon is in his possession, the more draconic features it takes on; a blade may become shaped like a claw, a crossguard might take on the appearance of a roaring maw, or a hilt may become covered in scales instead of wrapped in leather and wire. Regardless of the details, the Ascendant can instantly recognize his own weapon at a glance, and even know the difference between his own weapon and an expertly crafted replica.

When he first obtains this ability, a weapon to which the Ascendant is attuned may be called to hand as a move action, regardless of the distance between it and the Ascendant, and even across planes. However, as he gains levels, the Ascendant's attuned weapon gains additional bonus properties. In the hands of anyone but the Ascendant, the attuned weapon is nothing more than the base weapon. The bonuses granted to a weapon are never counted against the normal pre-epic limit of effective enhancement bonuses.

At 7th level, the Draconic Weapon deals additional energy damage of the same type as his breath weapon equal to half his levels in this class.

At 11th level, the Draconic Weapon gains the burst weapon property of the same energy type as his breath weapon.

At 15th level, the Ascendant gains the ability to channel a fraction of his spellcasting ability through his weapon. Whenever he hits with the Draconic Weapon, the Ascendant may sacrifice a daily use of a spell-like ability to deal 1d6 energy damage of the same type as his breath weapon for each spell level sacrificed. The Ascendant may not sacrifice more than one spell-like ability per hit in this fashion.

At 19th level, the Draconic Weapon gains the Bane property, directed at all creatures without the Dragon type or Dragonblooded subtype.

Awakening (Ex): At 4th level, and again every four levels thereafter, the Draconic Ascendant gains a deeper understanding of the Prophecies and how they relate to him.

At 4th level, the Ascendant gains a +2 inherent bonus to Intelligence.

At 8th level, the Ascendant gains a +2 inherent bonus to Charisma (chromatic) or Wisdom (metallic).

At 12th level, the Ascendant gains a +2 inherent bonus to Strength.

At 16th level, the Ascendant gains a +2 inherent bonus to Constitution.

At 20th level, the Ascendant reaches the pinnacle of his awakening, gaining an additional +2 inherent bonus to each of the above ability scores. In addition, he gains the dragon type, and is considered in all respects as if he were a dragon of his heritage, including the ability to access prestige classes designed for true dragons.

Scales of the Ancients (Ex): At 4th level, the Draconic Ascendant gains a +2 enhancement bonus to natural armor. For every two levels beyond 4th, this bonus to natural armor increases by an additional point.

Blindsense (Ex): Starting at 5th level, the Draconic Ascendant gains the Blindsense special ability. The Ascendant can pinpoint creatures at a distance of 30 feet, though opponents the Ascendant can't actually see still have total concealment against him.

At 9th level, the range of the Ascendant's blindsense increases to 60 feet.

Energy Resistance (Ex): Starting at 5th level, the Draconic Ascendant gains resistance 10 to the energy type of his breath weapon.

At 9th level, this improves to energy resistance 20.

Wings of the Ancestor (Ex): Starting at 6th level, the Draconic Ascendant gains the ability to sprout and retract wings resembling those of dragons of his heritage as a swift action. These wings allow the Ascendant to fly with poor maneuverability at a speed of 30 feet while wearing any form of armor and carrying up to a heavy load.

At 8th level, this speed increases to 60 feet, and the Ascendant gains the ability to make a pair of wing attacks, even while flying. These attacks deal 1d4 damage for a medium Ascendant, or 1d3 damage for a small Ascendant, and add half of his strength modifier to the damage roll.

At 10th level, the Ascendant's flight speed increases to 80 feet. At 12th, it increases to 100 feet. At 14th, it increases to 120 feet. At 16th, it increases to 140 feet. At 18th, it increases to 160 feet. At 20th, it increases to 200 feet.

Keen Senses (Ex): Starting at 7th level, a Draconic Ascendant's senses sharpen tenfold. He gains the ability to see four times as well as a human in shadowy illumination, and twice as well in normal light. He also gains darkvision out to 120 feet, or the range of his current darkvision increases by 120 feet.

Frightful Presence (Ex): A Draconic Ascendant of 9th level or higher can unsettle foes with his mere presence. This ability takes effect automatically whenever the Ascendant attacks, charges, or flies overhead. Creatures within a radius of 5 feet per class level are subject to the effect if they have fewer HD than the Ascendant's class level plus his relevant spellcasting abiity modifier. A potentially affected creature that succeeds on a Will save, (DC 10 +1/2 class level + relevant spellcasting modifier) remains immune to the Ascendant's frightful presence for 24 hours. On a failure, affected creatures are shaken for 1d6 rounds. Dragons ignore the frightful presence of the Ascendant, and vice versa.

Spell Resistance (Ex): A Draconic Ascendant of 11th level or higher has spell resistance equal to 10 + class level. Unlike ordinary spell resistance, he may lower and resume his spell resistance as a free action taken out of turn, so as not to interfere with allied spells.

Immunities: A Draconic Ascendant of 13th level or higher gains immunity to sleep and paralysis effects, as well as immunity to energy damage of the same type as his breath weapon.

Tail Slap: At 13th level, a Draconic Ascendant grows a long, powerful tail, with which he can make tail slap attacks. A tail slap deals 1d6 damage for a medium Ascendant, or 1d4 damage for a small Ascendant, and adds 1^1/2 his Strength modifier to the damage roll.

Dragon Form (Su): A Draconic Ascendant of 15th level or higher can shift between his current form and that of a dragon of his heritage as a standard action. The Ascendant can assume the form of a dragon of his HD or fewer, and gains all of the extraordinary and supernatural abilities of the dragon, but not any spell-like abilities or spellcasting powers, though he does retain the ability to use his own spell-like abilities. The Ascendant also keeps his own breath weapon, rather than that of the dragon form. Any equipment worn by the Ascendant when he shifts into his dragon form that could be used by the new form appears in the appropriate location on his new body, while the rest of his gear melds into his form until he shifts back.

Hoard Magic (Su): Starting at 17th level, the Draconic Ascendant may ignore material components and foci of up to 2,000 gp in value when using his spell-like abilities. In addition, he halves the experience point cost of all of his spell-like abilities, whether they occur naturally from the spell or from using a spell-like ability with a material component more expensive than 2,000 gp.

Tail Sweep (Ex): Starting at 18th level, the Draconic Ascendant can sweep an area with his tail as a standard action. The sweep affects a half circle with a range equal to the Ascendant's natural reach, extending from an intersection on the edge of the Ascendant's space in any direction. Creatures within the swept area are affected if they are the same size category as the Ascendant or smaller. A tail sweep automatically deals 1d8 damage for a medium Ascendant or 1d6 damage for a small Ascendant plus 1^1/2 his strength modifier to all creatures within the affected area. Creatures within the area can attempt a Reflex save with a DC equal to the Ascendant's breath weapon for half damage.

Fivefold Breath (Su): Once per encounter, instead of his normal breath attack, a Draconic Ascendant of 20th level can instead breathe five types of energy at once. The shape of the Fivefold Breath is the same as his normal breath weapon.

When using Fivefold Breath, the Ascendant rolls his breath weapon damage normally, doubles it, then divides it evenly amongst acid, cold, electric, fire, and sonic damage. Creatures are allowed a single reflex save to halve the total damage, as Fivefold Breath is one breath attack, not five.

[Noctemwolf]

I call using this in the next game I play! 0-0** even though I haven't read it all the way through yet...

[Jallorn]

Needs fluff.

[Dead_Jester]

Looks good, but I have a question.

Can draconic weapon be used with natural weapons? And if it can be, can it be used with your dragon form's natural weapons?

[Jarian]

Needs fluff.

Tying down base classes with needless fluff is poor design in my opinion. You won't find extraneous details on any of my base classes, and I'm not about to change this view any time soon. Base classes should be able to fit a wide array of concepts, not some narrow ideal that the creator had in mind.

Looks good, but I have a question.

Can draconic weapon be used with natural weapons? And if it can be, can it be used with your dragon form's natural weapons?

I don't see why not. Is there a balance issue that I'm not seeing?

[Elfstone]

This is so amazing, you make me want to cry. Everything you have made so far has been excelent. I am jealous of your talent. I will be watching for more. =)

[Jarian]

This is so amazing, you make me want to cry.

Thanks!

Everything you have made so far has been excelent. I am jealous of your talent.

I will be watching for more. =)

Working on a variety of projects currently, one of which is an Infernal Ascendant. Stay tuned.

[Dead_Jester]

I don't see why not. Is there a balance issue that I'm not seeing?

Not at all, I was just woundering. It would in fact make sense for the draconic ascendant to be allowed, as it should be easier to create a link with a part of yourself (which is a dragon...) than with a piece of metal (which is not a dragon...)

[NineThePuma]

And, suddenly, my next Kobold is no longer dipping a dozen classes.

[MammonAzrael]

I'll try to give this thing a more solid overview when I can, it looks pretty sweet.

I do want to say though, that while I agree with your "minimal fluff" stance for base classes, I do think you should include at least a little, covering what is already build into the class. For instance, if the DA chose a metallic dragon for Blood of the Ancients, why would they gain a five-fold breath at level 20? That is strictly a Tiamat deal. And what are these Great Prophecies? These are things that can be covered in basic fluff that doesn't tie the class down to a narrow concept.

[Amnestic]

[Fivefold Breath] is strictly a Tiamat deal.

Eh, yes and no. The idea of a Fivefold Breath (as seen with the DFA Breath Effect) coming from Tiamat is established yes, but Tiamat's Fivefold represented the five chromatic dragons - two lines, three cones - breath weapons all going off at once. The Draconic Ascedant's Fivefold breath is clearly different.

1) Same shape throughout, not a mix of lines and cones
2) Notable addition of Sonic energy* to the mix, trading it for the second instance of Acid.
3) Only one breath attack, not five as the DFA's is.

It's called Fivefold Breath, but it's clearly a different beast to the one previously used in WotC materials. There's no real need to tie it to Tiamat, since none of her heads have a Sonic breath weapon as far as I know.

*Only 3-4 dragons I've found have Sonic Energy breath weapons: Emerald, Battle, Howling and Pyroclastic, the latter of which is Fire and Sonic. These are Lawful Neutral, Neutral Good, Chaotic Evil/Neutral and Lawful Evil/Neutral respectively.

[NineThePuma]

... Tiamat's Fivefold represented the five metallic dragons - two lines, three cones - breath weapons all going off at once.

You mean chromatic, right?

[Amnestic]

You mean chromatic, right?

Duh, yes. Edited. Having three dragon books open at once, you'd think I wouldn't have made such a silly typo.

[Jarian]

Amnestic has it correct. While obviously inspired by the DFA breath effect, the capstone of this class has nothing to do with Tiamat.

And yes, I'm aware that sonic is a rare breath weapon damage type. Fourfold breath sounds dumb anyway, and the effect is meant to allow the Ascendant to use his breath weapon against almost anything, even if for a reduced effect.

And what are these Great Prophecies? These are things that can be covered in basic fluff that doesn't tie the class down to a narrow concept.

Vaguely inspired by the Eberron draconic prophecies, but only intended for mechanical effects. They have nothing to do with anything beyond what the DM decides to include in his game. Adding more than what's here would mean forcing DMs to adjust their settings or change the class. I don't agree with that design style.

[SPoD]

What is the intended tier/power level of this class? I presume it is intended to replace both the dragonfire adept and the dragon shaman in games that balance on the high side, correct?

I ask because I came into the thread looking for something to adapt as part of my gem dragon expansion, but this class is far more powerful than anything that would be existing in the campaign I have in mind (an all-psionic campaign without erudites).

[Jarian]

What is the intended tier/power level of this class? I presume it is intended to replace both the dragonfire adept and the dragon shaman in games that balance on the high side, correct?

In a sense, sure. It's designed to be an out of the box gish character with a strong draconic feel. The Dragon Shaman is terribly designed, but this has very little to do with it. The Dragonfire Adept still has a better breath weapon (Fivefold Breath of Tiamat? Hold me closer, dark mistress!) than this, but weaker combat ability. If you were going to compare the two based on breath weapons alone, I'd give it to the DFA, but I'd give the overall score to the Ascendant.

I ask because I came into the thread looking for something to adapt as part of my gem dragon expansion, but this class is far more powerful than anything that would be existing in the campaign I have in mind (an all-psionic campaign without erudites).

If your game features any of the following, the Ascendant will be outclassed by miles: Psion, Wilder, Ardent. If your game features Psychic Warriors, the two should be able to coexist nicely.

[SPoD]

If your game features any of the following, the Ascendant will be outclassed by miles: Psion, Wilder, Ardent. If your game features Psychic Warriors, the two should be able to coexist nicely.

I disagree. This strikes me as much stronger than a Psychic Warrior as it's written. The PW gains 20 powers known and just enough power points to manifest them once per day each. This class gets 20 spell-like abilities that it can use once per day each, but the maximum level rises to 7th and he doesn't need to augment them in order to get caster-level-based increases in damage or what have you. So the only real benefit the PW has is flexibility in how many of each power he uses each day.

So if those two features are more or less equal, you're comparing 8 bonus feats to a whole slew of permanent special powers (and two Good saves, a Good base attack bonus, and more skill points, too). I don't think it's even close to being even.

I'm not trying to say this class isn't good or anything, I'm just saying that if you think this class is even with the published Psychic Warrior, I think you're dramatically underestimating it. This is clearly, in the parlance of the boards, a Tier 2 warrior, and PW is lucky to get up to Tier 3.

Thanks for answering, however. I appreciate your insight, even if I disagree with your conclusions.

[Jarian]

I assume a moderate level of optimization that lets the Psychic Warrior blow this class half a mile out of the water when it comes to beating stuff up with a stick.

There's no contest between the "casting" ability of the two classes, though.

If your players or your world in general don't optimize at all, the Ascendant wins at both beating stuff up and casting, yes.

[SPoD]

Your answers tell me that when it comes to optimization, what you consider "moderate," I consider "high," and what you consider "high," I consider "not allowed."

Thanks, I'l bow out now. This class Isn't For Me.

[Jarian]

A final note, if you happen to stop back: Even if you assume the Ascendant's utter superiority over PW's, your campaign still (I think?) features Psions, Wilders, and Ardents. Any one of these played without optimization can rival his damage output from level 2 onwards, without using psionic action economy abuse or anything. With the same optimization level required to choose power attack for melee classes, full manifesters can easily outpace the Ascendant in both damage and versatility, for as long as their power points hold out.

Your players may not play manifesters to the best of their ability; this is fine. Psionic action abuse can get pretty absurd. However, I do think that the Ascendant should be able to serve as a respectable gish character in a campaign with full manifesters. Replacing his SLA's with limited PLA's that only auto-augment to a certain level could bridge the gap between the spellcasting and manifesting inherent to your world, too.

[SPoD]

A final note, if you happen to stop back: Even if you assume the Ascendant's utter superiority over PW's, your campaign still (I think?) features Psions, Wilders, and Ardents. Any one of these played without optimization can rival his damage output from level 2 onwards, without using psionic action economy abuse or anything. With the same optimization level required to choose power attack for melee classes, full manifesters can easily outpace the Ascendant in both damage and versatility, for as long as their power points hold out.

Your players may not play manifesters to the best of their ability; this is fine. Psionic action abuse can get pretty absurd. However, I do think that the Ascendant should be able to serve as a respectable gish character in a campaign with full manifesters. Replacing his SLA's with limited PLA's that only auto-augment to a certain level could bridge the gap between the spellcasting and manifesting inherent to your world, too.

Bolding mine. This is probably the difference in how we play; it is inconceivable that a manifester will not run out of power points if they just blow them on every fight in my campaigns. I often create adventures with timed factors that make resting after every two fights impossible without sacrificing the goal, and even beyond that, my house rules include the fact that you can't rest unless it has been at least 8 hours since your last rest. I'm not above attacking sleeping PCs, either. And many of the action-economy-busting powers like Schism are flat-out banned in my game (as are stuff like Persistent Spell, on the magic side).

Within that environment, you can see how a class that features dozens of permanent no-rest-needed abilities on top of spell-likes seems far more powerful to me.

(And now I mean it about not posting, because any further discussion is going to be more about playstyle than the class.)

[Jarian]

Bolding mine. This is probably the difference in how we play; it is inconceivable that a manifester will not run out of power points if they just blow them on every fight in my campaigns. I often create adventures with timed factors that make resting after every two fights impossible without sacrificing the goal, and even beyond that, my house rules include the fact that you can't rest unless it has been at least 8 hours since your last rest. I'm not above attacking sleeping PCs, either. And many of the action-economy-busting powers like Schism are flat-out banned in my game (as are stuff like Persistent Spell, on the magic side).

We have the same campaign design philosophy, it seems. Just slightly different expectations. No harm in that.

Within that environment, you can see how a class that features dozens of permanent no-rest-needed abilities on top of spell-likes seems far more powerful to me.

Well, yes and no. By that same reasoning, DFA's are too powerful, since they can use a breath weapon superior to the Ascendant's every round. Not superior in damage until 15th, when you get Fivefold Breath of Tiamat, but... "my breath freezes, shocks, slows, sickens, oh, and sometimes shoots five blasts at once" in addition to no-cost 24-hour/at-will spell-like abilities.

I'm not saying you're wrong, just that you might be overestimating the strength of poor-maneuverability flight and a few natural attacks. However, I'm not going to shove the class down your throat, so do as you wish.

(And now I mean it about not posting, because any further discussion is going to be more about playstyle than the class.)

I don't mind discussion of playstyle with regards to the class, since one can't just assume that the class will be played in a single type of group. That said, I can respect your decision if you feel you've gotten everything you can out of the discussion.

[SPoD]

Well, yes and no. By that same reasoning, DFA's are too powerful, since they can use a breath weapon superior to the Ascendant's every round. Not superior in damage until 15th, when you get Fivefold Breath of Tiamat, but... "my breath freezes, shocks, slows, sickens, oh, and sometimes shoots five blasts at once" in addition to no-cost 24-hour/at-will spell-like abilities.

If I gained nothing else from this discussion, I learned that I never noticed the at the DFA's BW could be used every round. For years, I've been automatically assuming it was like all breath weapons with an every-1d4-rounds limit.

What's funny about this is that I've DMed for DFAs before, and they never once questioned me forcing them to roll a d4 every time they used it! Either their reading comprehension is worse than mine, or it was the most gracious acceptance of a nerf in D&D history.

[NineThePuma]

it was the most gracious acceptance of a nerf in D&D history.

Actually, that's a buff. Suddenly, they qualify for a whole bunch of feats.

[MammonAzrael]

Actually, that's a buff. Suddenly, they qualify for a whole bunch of feats.

If they aren't reading the class close enough to realize that there is no 1d4 round cool down on the breath weapon, then I doubt they'd be using metabreath feats.

[Escheton]

Moved it here because it indeed has no place in a recruitmentthread.


"Point of contention 2: The Duskblade has significantly greater raw firepower than the Ascendant. The Ascendant makes up for this with versatility."

That is what I don't get, where does this firepower come from? Because I don't see it. So to me the point come off as an unfounded way to downplay the DA
Same for many arguments about the class before that where mostly mindless rehashes of druid and wizardmemes. Though I believe those where made by others.

At lvl 8 a DA has 8 3rd lvl spells and a 6d6 breathweapon. vs a duskblades 7-9 first lvl and 6-8 2nd lvl spells depending on the height of the casting stat.

[Jarian]

Arcane Channeling.

Next question.

Also:

At lvl 8 a DA has 8 3rd lvl spells and a 6d6 breathweapon. vs a duskblades 7-9 first lvl and 6-8 2nd lvl spells depending on the height of the casting stat.

No. He has two 3rd level spells. This is, conveniently, one of the worst levels for an Ascendant/Duskblade comparison.

[Escheton]

No, just no.

Arcane channeling allows you to deal both weapon damage as
spell damage. At the lvl where your casterlvl is high enough for that to somewhat usefull you get a second attack. Which you have to sacrifice to use Arcane channeling.

Howso is that a bad lvl?

[Jarian]

No, just no.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Arcane channeling allows you to deal both weapon damage as spell damage. At the lvl where your casterlvl is high enough for that to somewhat usefull you get a second attack. Which you have to sacrifice to use Arcane channeling.

"Instead of trying to hit something with a +3 BAB attack, I can add 8d6 damage to my attack. Hrm... You know, I'm just not sure! This is so hard. "

Really?

Howso is that a bad lvl?

1st level Duskblade uses blade of blood and laughs at the Ascendant's attempt at damage.

3rd through 5th level Duskblade arcane channels shocking grasp and laughs with maniacal glee as things become electrified crisps of xp.

13th level Duskblade full-attack channels... something really deadly. Fatality!

At any of these levels, the Duskblade has a clear advantage in raw damage over the Ascendant. At 8th, not so much.

Edit:

...

*speechless stare*

At each level, the Draconic Ascendant gains a single spell-like ability from either the sorcerer spell list or the cleric spell list, usable once per day. The list the Ascendant draws from is determined by his Blood of the Ancients ability. The spell level of the chosen spell-like ability cannot exceed the maximum spell level available to him, as shown on the table above.

Please reread the class features if you're going to insist on incredible brokenness.

[Escheton]

I reread it.

And It's not terrible brokenness, thats just it. It's not min-max. Which is usually what break things. It's max-min, with the min at a point what you would otherwise have to min-max for.


Now, what melee touch spell deals 8d6 dmg?
And how is adding the damage of a single melee attack worth the chance of missing because it no longer is a touch attack?