Warhammer 40K Tactics V: Everyone Is On Fire. Some Moreso Than Others.

[Cheesegear]

The last thread reached 50 Pages. So, without further ado;

Welcome to Tactics Thread V! And, to kick things off...

Cheesegear presents Cheesegear's Newbie Guide on How to pick Warhammer 40K army, by Cheesegear (and contributors).

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Disclaimer: This is not a guide to say which armies are 'better' than other armies. Except in hyperbole. The 'stars' notation is for what Newbies should play. By no means does this mean that you shouldn't play Chaos Daemons. It means that if you're a new player and don't fully understand the rules to the game, it might be hard to make Daemons work.

Any unit that gets specifically mentioned is a stand-out unit, or will represent a 'must-have' unit that the army has.

General Advice for all armies;

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• Where possible, you should always talk to a GW Staff Member. No, you don't have to actually listen to or do anything they say. But, you should at least talk to them so they can point you in at least a general direction. Don't buy anything on your first trip into the store. GW Staff are very persuasive, and you can - or will - often end up buying something you don't even want.
• If and when you do finally decide on an army, play a few games in an actual GW Store using the Store's models. Otherwise, where possible, use proxy models. This will give you a basic understanding of most of the rules and the turn sequence and a general idea of how your army-of-choice plays. Or, at least give you an idea that an army or unit that you thought was cool, really isn't. Or maybe that particular army just isn't for you. And that unit that 'looks cool' doesn't fit your play style.
• Read a Codex. Whatever gets said on the internet, means absolutely nothing if you don't have a Codex to understand what's being said. This ties into the above in that it's kind of important that you have played a few games and know the rules.
• GW doesn't mention it all that much, but; You don't have to use your army's Codex for your army. For example; It's perfectly reasonable to, say, use the Chaos Space Marine Codex to represent a 1st Company of Loyalist Marines. You can, in fact, use Imperial Guard models to represent Tau, or Eldar. Just so long as your models look suitably awesome and your models conform to the rules of a different list (the WYSIWYG rule). If you can also give a background justification - or 'fluffy' reason - for why your Imperial Guard are wielding Shuriken or Pulse Rifles; Even better!
• In regards to the above; 'Counts as' models can generally be shown to be a fluffy reason for why you have what you have. So, maybe your Imperial Guard regiment has a lot of Ogryns. You can use an Ogryn-holding-a-Lascannon as your 'Heavy Weapon Team'. As long as it's WYSIWYG, and at least makes a passing attempt at conforming to the rules (such as base size/shape), nobody cares. However, GW really doesn't like it when you come into their store and start using a different company's miniatures to play a GW game. However, making a scratch-build from Green Stuff and Plasticard is totally okay. Just so long as you aren't giving their competitors money, eh?
• With that said; Painting, Green Stuff, Plasticard and Conversions in general, the only way to get better at it, is to practice. Start easy, start small. Start with adding cloaks to troops. Large, rectangular pieces of Green Stuff. Easy. Maybe you'll be confident to add textures. Ability comes with practice. And, there are literally dozens of tutorials to be found on YouTube. And hundreds of tutorials just about everywhere else.
• Less is more. Don't try to equip your unit to do everything. Assign your units to fulfill a role, and let them do it. Don't waste points on things you aren't going to use.
• Bodies are far more important than Wargear. Do not spend 100 extra points on Wargear, if you could otherwise spend 100 points on buying a whole unit. Wargear is not a substitute for models. Well, it is. But, it's a poor substitute.
• In regards to the above two points, very rarely, should you spend more than 200 points on a single model (such as an HQ model), or 300 points on a single unit.
• Troops. Win. Games. Do not, under any circumstances, skimp out on your Troops selection. More often than not they are the cheapest unit in the Codex, and, Troops are the only units who can capture an objective. Any unit can contest an objective, but, only Troops can claim objectives. All contesting objectives will do is get you is a Draw.
• Assault on Black Reach. Bad for Space Marine players. Good for Ork Players.

Guide to Armies

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Space Marines (Codex Marines, SMs):

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Pros: Space Marines are the eponymous 40K army. They are the army by which all other armies are judged. Just about all their units can be outfitted in many different ways to fulfill many different roles (but, in regards to General Advice, they should only try to do one thing at a time). With few exceptions, the entire army selection is plastic for easy conversions and assembly (and, most of the metal models you don't even need). As plastics, the army is also relatively cheap to buy.
GW Staff are extremely knowledgeable on all things Space Marine.
Troops unit choice with the ability to Infiltrate and have Sniper Rifles.
Power Armour and Bolters.

Cons: Honestly, none. Save for the common misinformation that GW Staff will tell you to get you to buy certain units and sets (like Assault on Black Reach). But, this is by no means bad. As a Space Marine is a Space Marine. And pretty much all the units in the Codex can be useful one way or another.
One such example is that there is a growing proportion of Space Marine players who feel - despite the fluff and the statline - that Scout Squads are superior to Tactical Squads (the reason why is outside the scope of this guide).
The only truly bad thing about Space Marines, is that everybody has them. GW sells them at every opportunity. All starter sets ever produced by GW has contained Space Marines as one of the 'learner' armies. By extension, a lot of people turn to Space Marines because that's what they learned the game with, but, what they don't realise, is that the Assault on Black Reach starter kit is weak.

Recommendation for Newbs; *****. But the Assault on Black Reach kit isn't a good start to a Space Marine army. GW likes misinformation.
* or ** depending on whether or not you care about being 'just like everyone else'.
What's so bad about AoBR?

Codex Space Marines theoretically allows you to build 7 different 'themes' of Space Marines (even though it's 6) based around what colours and which Special Characters you like. However, any special character can be used in any Chapter, painted any colour that you choose. So, really, what Chapter you choose is kind of irrelevant since you can use other Chapters' special characters anyway.

The common belief is that 'Space Marines is Space Marines'. They all have Power Armour and Bolters. All of the above applies to the below;
Dark Angels: Outdated Codex. A few minor differences. Many people are best off going with Codex Marines rather than playing by Dark Angels rules. The only reason to play Dark Angels is for Ravenwing. And, even then, sometimes you might be better off with Codex Marines with a 'Captain on Bike'. *
Black Templars: Outdated Codex. Slightly more focused on close combat. With some unique rules. ***
Space Wolves: Slightly focused on close combat. With some unique rules and units. ***
Blood Angels: Focused on close combat so much that it may lead to a detriment to their shooting capabilities. Some unique rules. Expensive (in points) squads and Assault Squads as troops. ** or ***

If you don't understand just what it is that makes these Chapters unique as opposed Codex Marines (read their respective Codecies), or you don't like or don't plan on using what makes them unique; You're better off sticking to Codex Marines. You can still paint your Space Marines as Blood Angels and use Codex Marines.

Chaos Space Marines (Chaos Marines, CSMs):

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Like Space Marines, but Evil. So, just about everything that applies to Space Marines applies to Chaos Space Marines.
Pros: Chaos Space Marines are slightly more focused on close combat than their Imperial counterparts - but, by no means to they have to be. CSMs are not necessarily 'better' than regular SMs. Just...Different. Each faction has different toys at their disposal.
There are a variety of different ways you can outfit your squads, and it's kind of difficult to find any two CSM armies the same.
Power Armour and Bolters.
Converting your 'Starter Box' Space Marine army to Chaos Marines is fairly easy. Just add spikes and arrows and mutations.

Cons: There are options in the Codex. Too many options some say. It's very easy to get confused on what or what not to get for your squads and characters. And it's even easier to go overboard on wargear and skills and the like (remember; Wargear != Bodies).
CSMs are also a fairly commonly seen army as they cater to the people who want to play Space Marines, but, think that 'Evil is Cool'. Some do consider who they get associated with as a bad thing.

Recommendation for Newbies: ****

Chaos Space Marines (Cults):

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Contributions supplied by Winterwind, DaedalusMkV and unknowingly by Myatar Panwar

World Eaters/Khorne-based/Beserkers:
Lots of attacks...Aaand...That's about it. Khorne Beserkers have WS 5 and also gain Furious Charge, meaning that when Assaulting, they're hitting and wounding most things on 3s and 2/3s. Their initiative 5 (when Assaulting) helps them a lot when they can strike before most enemies and kill them before they get attacks back. Khorne Berzerkers are fairly good at what they do, but, their individual unit effectiveness is directly proportional to their opponent's armour save.
Meaning, that, for the most part, you need lots of Beserkers. Lots. Khorne Beserker armies also don't function very well without Rhinos, as their only ranged weapons are Pistols. So, this is a lot of currency. On top of which; As they lack ranged weapons, Obliterators, Vindicators and Defilers are almost required for the army.
Khorne Lords and Daemon Princes are considered to be the least efficient. The Daemon Weapon gives you double the chance to hurt yourself. As well as +2D6 Power Weapon attacks is pretty much overkill. You don't really need that many.
Their special character - Kharn - is quite good though.
*** You will need Rhinos. Luckily, Berzerkers come in boxes of 12 (which is more than the other Cult units) and are plastic. Which is good.

Thousand Sons/Tzeentch-based:
All models with the Mark of Tzeentch gain an Invulnerable save. Or, their save gets improved if they already have one. This makes Tzeentch-based lists very tough to kill on the outset.
Onto specialised units; Thousand Sons are a Troop choice that comes with a 4+ invulnerable save, and have AP3 Bolters. Perfect for objective-squatting. This also makes them deadly in ranged firefights - and their invulnerable save makes them hard to kill on the return. Being Slow and Purposeful, it's a good idea to get as much use our their Bolters as you can get.
Thousand Sons also have a Sorcerer as their 'Sergeant'. Chaos Psychic Powers being as they are, this is quite good, as most 'shooting' powers tend to be AP3 or better, or allow no save at all. The Sorcerer also comes with a Force Weapon (add Warptime for fun). Meaning units with an Independent Character kind of need to think twice before Assaulting Thousand Sons units.
However, units without Independent Characters (that you can't target), and other dedicated Assault units will have an easy time. As Thousand Sons are the worst Assault unit in the Codex. But, this isn't saying a whole lot, as they're still Space Marines.
Tzeentch Daemon Princes and Sorcerers are quite good, able to choose and use two powers in the same turn. As well as receiving a better Invulnerable save. Tzeentch Lords are 'okay'. The Tzeentch special character - Ahriman - is pretty good. But, far too overpoints'd.
*** Thousand Sons boxes are expensive. But, you get plenty in a box.

Emperor's Children/Slaanesh-based/Noise Marines:
Marks of Slaanesh add to Initiative. This means pretty much everything in the CSM army will be functioning at Initiative 5. If you're unit holds Power Weapons, you can do a lot of damage before your opponent even gets to attack.
Noise Marines. Are. Amazing. Sonic Blasters are essentially Storm Bolters that get an extra shot if you're standing still. A Blastmaster, is a S8, AP3 Blast weapon that causes Pinning. Do you want yet? Just before Assaulting, the Noise Marine Champion has access to a S5, AP3 Flamer. This will kill things dead. Then Assault, at Initiative 5 (if you're opponent didn't fail their Morale check from you shooting the crap out of them, that is) and you can do some serious damage.
Daemon Princes and Sorcerers gain Lash of Submission. Usually considered one of the more unfair psychic powers as it allows you to move your opponent's models. Where? Into Dangerous Terrain, out of their precious cover, towards your own models into Assault range, or even just moving their Heavy Weapon team out of LoS.
Chaos Lords with Blissgiver are perfect Character killers as with 3+D6 attacks and Initiative 6, they only need to cause one wound (with a 'Power Weapon') to kill pretty much anything they want.
Lucius the Eternal is just as good as - if not better than - Kharn. And doesn't even cost that many points.
*** or **** The Noise Marine box doesn't come with with many Sonic Blasters. They are, however, available in bulk from Mail Order. But, they're not that important. You're really only getting Noise Marines for Blastmasters and Doom Sirens.

Death Guard/Nurgle-based/Plague Marines:
Extra Toughness. Might not seem like much. But, it's (usually) the most expensive Mark for units that can take it for a reason. Works best on models in Terminator Armour or models on Bikes.
Plauge Marines are pretty much exactly the same as regular Chaos Marines, except with Toughness 5 and Feel No Pain. They're extremely hard to kill. On top of which, they have Defensive Grenades. And that's pretty good. Aaand...That's about it actually. Not much can be said about Plague Marines except exactly that.
The Mark of Nurgle is mostly wasted on Daemon Princes as they don't really need the extra Toughness compared to what else they could take and Sorcerers on gain access to Nurgle's Rot, which, again, compared to other powers, isn't that great. As Nurgle's Rot works best in close combat. But, Nurgle Sorcerers only get one psychic power per turn. So, it's Nova, or use the Force Weapon.
On Chaos Lords (especially in Terminator Armour), the Mark of Nurgle is alright. Giving access to a reasonably good Daemon Weapon.
The special character for Death Guard is Typhus. He's pretty damn good. Opinion appears to be divided on whether or not he's worth the points. He has Wind of Chaos, and Nurgle's Rot (otherwise known as Nurgle's Nova). And he auto-passes all psychic tests when using those powers. As well as having the Nurgle-based Daemon Weapon, that also counts as a Force Weapon. As well as Terminator Armour and Defensive Grenades. Whether you like him or not is your choice.
*** Plague Marines are pretty boring for options. But, Toughness 5 and Feel No Pain are really, really good. And the Mark of Nurgle is usually the most expensive Mark for those who would get any real use out of it.

Tyranids ('Nids):

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If you think of the movie Alien, or Starship Troopers, Tyranids aren't far off the mark.
Pros: Tyranids are primarily seen as a close combat swarm army. The big Tyranids are extremely customisable and immensely powerful in whatever role you want to give them (but you should only choose one role at a time, remember), and, the smaller Tyranids come in massive numbers designed to make your opponent crap themselves on just how many bodies you can put on the table. The Tyranids also possess one of the most deadly close combat units in the entire game.
A Troops choice that can Infiltrate.
Most of the army is plastic. And, many of the metal models you only need a few of. So, per box, Tyranids are pretty cheap. Also, the Tyranid Battleforce is generally considered the 'best' one. Although, it's definitely recommended by most of the internet that you get two.

Cons: Like CSMs, it's often possible to overload your Monstrous Creatures with too many biomorphs (wargear), which gets expensive. Fast. And, many of the smaller Tyranids are designed for one unchangeable role. The smaller Tyranids can't adapt their units for what they want to do. A Tyranid army is usually seen as very shooty-heavy, or very assault-heavy. It very - extremely rarely - can be both. Often, trying to be both is actually a detriment to the Tyranid army.

Without the bigger Tyranids to back them up, the smaller Tyranids suddenly become a lot more vulnerable, partly because they already have low toughness and high armour saves to begin with. Therefore, you may need to spend a bit of money on the larger, more expensive models.
As a swarm army, box-per-box, you also don't get very many points in each box. This means you'll probably have to end up spending a lot of money to get a decent amount of points onto the table.

Also, like SMs and CSMs, if a 14 year old kid isn't playing SMs or CSMs, then they're playing Tyranids.

Reccomendation for Newbies: ** to ****. Depending on how much real-world currency you have to spend. If you don't have a lot of money, you wont be able to field a lot of bodies or acquire the larger Monstrous Creatures. If you can field ~50 Termagants and 50 Hormagaunts per battle and have Monstrous Creatures to back them up...Good.

Eldar:

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Elves. In SPAAACE!
Pros: The Eldar boast a 'swiss army knife' army. They have a unit for everything and every unit can do their job well. Each and every unit looks vastly different to every other unit, and are actually supposed to be painted in different colours to each other. So, you have a huge variety of models and colours. If variety is important to you.
Most of the army can Fleet. All Eldar tanks are Fast, Skimmers, and the army contains Eldar Jetbikes (which have different rules to 'normal' Jetbikes). In short, the Eldar army boasts speed and maneuverability.
As with their Infantry, they also have HQ units to fit certain roles. An Autarch can be outfitted to suit almost any battlefield role. Eldar Farseers and Seer Councils are powerful psykers. And the Avatar is a close combat Monster (literally).
A lot of the metal models in the range come in reasonable sized boxes at a (fairly) reasonable price. The good news is, you usually don't need too many of the metal models.
Troops unit choice with the ability to Infiltrate and have Sniper Rifles.
A Wraithlord is one of the scariest models in the game. An absurdly high Toughness and a reasonable armour save. And can kill troops and heavy armour with equal ease. Often at the same time. It's strength 10 and Monstrous Creature status also means it can rip apart tanks even when it's guns are suited to killing Infantry. It even causes Instant Death on most Infantry that attack it. Including a lot of HQ characters.
Wraithguard are like smaller Wraithlords high Strength and Toughness, with a good save and toting around deadly guns.
...It's possible to build an entire army out of Wraithguard and Wraithlords.

Cons: Low 'Elf' Toughness.
The sheer amount of variety can sometimes make it hard to decide which units to take. Especially since some of the units in the Eldar army overlap, but, achieve their role in slightly different ways. And it's these 'slightly different ways' that can make or break the unit depending on your opponent. Some particular units are even useless or near-useless depending on your opponent.
Every unit fills a role. And is unadaptive. You can't manipulate any squad to do anything other than what it was designed to do (except Dire Avengers). And, in smaller point games where you can't afford to take every unit you want, you'll know that you're missing that unit. Because nothing else you have will be able to perform as well as the missing unit.
It's these missing units that make of most of the metal models that will be in your army. You'll need the metal models.
Individual Wraithguard units can often be prohibitively expensive in currency.
Taking too many Wraithlords in your army will have people crying for curdled dairy products. That is; Cheese. In lower point games, just one Wraithlord is enough for "OMG! Cheese!" cries.

Recommendation for Newbies: *** or ****. The Eldar army is an army where it's hard - but not impossible - to go wrong. With such a huge mandatory variety in models, an 'I want every unit' mindset (common in newbies) is actually beneficial to the Eldar army setup.

Dark Eldar (DE):

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Like Eldar, but evil (there's an argument that Dark Eldar are more evil than 'regular Chaos'). But vastly different.
Pros: The Dark Eldar as just as fast and just as maneuverable - if not more - as their 'good' Eldar counterparts. Except pack a lot more firepower. Each and every unit is customisable (unlike Eldar) to attack different things. Splinter Cannons for killing Infantry and Dark Lances for popping tanks. And you can fit a lot of both in an army.
The Dark Eldar close combat portion of the army is nothing to be sneezed at either. The Dark Eldar Lord (home of the 2+ Invulnerable Save) and Incubi retinue is one of the single-deadliest close combat units in the game (the only one better this author can think of is Necron Pariahs). Wyches are also very good.
The Dark Eldar also posses Raiders. A Fast, Skimming, Open-Topped Transport vehicle. For some, this means putting a squad of Warriors in and flying them around the battlefield and shooting anything that moves thanks to being open-topped.
Because a Raider is also Fast, and Open-Topped, and some Dark Eldar Infantry are also Fleet, it means Dark Eldar are often capable of the 'First Turn Assault'. Given just how effective Dark Eldar assault units are, this can only end well.
Also being Open-Topped, it means that when (rarely if) the Raider is destroyed, it's occupants can bail out easier.
In the hands of someone who has played Dark Eldar a long time, the army is staggeringly effective.

Cons: Fragile. Fragile. Fragile. The Dark Eldar army is best described as 'shock and awe' (read the fluff ). The goal of the army is to butcher and hamstring the opponent as quickly and as brutally as possible. If it isn't blindingly obvious that the Dark Eldar are winning by Turn 3 or 4, then they probably wont win the battle at all. By turn 3 or 4, most of the Dark Eldar Raiders should be destroyed (if they're not, laugh), leaving the Dark Eldar to rely on their enormous Toughness of 3, or Jetbikes.
The Dark Eldar have huge reliance on their Raider transport vehicles. This will end up costing a fair bit of currency in the end as nearly every unit will need one for extra protection or speed.
A lot of (effective) Dark Eldar armies tend to look the same.
A lot of the models are old and/or 'not very pretty'. However, some people don't mind that they're 'not pretty', because they're Dark Eldar. They're not supposed to be attractive like 'good' Eldar.
Old Codex. This isn't necessarily a bad thing as the 3rd Ed. Dark Eldar Codex still stands up against recent 5th Ed. Codecies. It isn't bad...Just...Old. And it may or may not be missing out on some fun toys that the other races have been getting.

Recommendation for Newbies: ** or ***. The Dark Eldar are easy to learn, but hard to master. But, once mastered...The Dark Eldar tend to either win by a significant margin (often by Turn 3 or 4), or lose spectacularly (by Turn 5 or 6). If you don't like the models, you can always take regular Eldar, add spikes and make some really awesome conversions. But, doing this is hard.

Necrons:

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Think The Terminator, or perhaps think of Undead metal skeletons. And you can think of the Necrons.
Pros: Some of the toughest basic Troops in the entire game.
Power Armour and Bolters. Except 'Necron Bolters' have a special version of Rending-but-not-quite, allowing them to wound Toughness 8 or better models or cause Glancing Hits to any vehicle. Including Land Raiders. Yes. The basic Troop type, with no options, can cause Glancing Hits against Land Raiders.
As well as their reasonable Toughness and 'Power Armour', they come with the We'll Be Back rule. Essentially your models can stand back up, even after they've been 'killed'. Like Undead. Or T-800s. Essentially, the Necrons are hard to kill. And sometimes don't even stay dead.
Warscythes - available to Necron Lords and Pariahs - are the best weapon in the entire game. Ignoring all saves - including Invulnerable Saves - and rolling 2D6 for Armour Penetration. Given that both Lords and Pariahs have Strength and Toughness 5, they can and will carve through almost anything put in front of them. Not even 'hard' units, that rely on 2+ armour and Invulnerable saves (like Space Marine Terminators) need to think twice about assaulting Pariahs.
The Necron army list is straightforward. You don't have to worry about whether to take Flamers or Plasmaguns. The unit is the unit. No fiddling necessary.
Most of the (useful) Necron model range is plastic. And also come at a high in-game points cost. For this reason, the Necrons are probably the cheapest army to buy when it comes to currency.
Necrons are extremely easy to paint.
The C'Tan. The Necrons are able to field near-literal Gods on the battlefield.
The Monolith. There's a legend that if you crack it open, it's full of cheese!
Disclaimer: Cheesegear does not endorse breaking your Necron Monolith to find out if cheese is inside it.

Cons: First and foremost, the Phase Out rule. When an arbitrary proportion of your army is destroyed, the Necron army automatically loses. Regardless of the mission being played, the opponent has the same objective; 'Kill them all'.
Certain units are able to mitigate Phase Out from happening. One of the best ways to do this is to take a lot of the cheaper - and less fun - units in the army. For this reason, a lot of (effective) Necron armies tend to look pretty boring and are always pretty similar.
The only real individuality to be found in the entire Necron army list is to be found on the Necron Lord. No other unit truly allows options except for whether to take grenades or not.
The Assault capabilities of the Necron army is pretty effective, but, minimal. Either being expensive in points (like the aforementioned awesome Pariahs) and/or are not Troops. The Necron list also has a profound lack of Power Weapons, which doesn't help. The only power weapons found in the Necron list are Warscythes, which are only found on the expensive units; Lords and Pariahs (please note that Warscythes are awesome, however).
Pariahs may be totally awesome, and perhaps the best unit in the game, but, they don't come with the Necron rule. Meaning, every Pariah you get for your army, means that you're one step closer to Phasing Out earlier.
The basic Necron Troop comes at a high points cost, for this reason, Necrons do not often do well in games that are less than 1000 points.
(Unless the opponent doesn't entirely know what they're doing, and doesn't know how to defeat We'll Be Back or force a Phase Out).

Recommendation for Newbies: The Necrons are a very straightforward list. Very few options to get confused about, and extremely easy to paint. Necrons are very much like the Dark Eldar. It's very easy to make a bad list. It's also very easy to make a completely devastating list if you know what you're doing.
* if you can't get your head around Phase Out or want a list that offers variety.
**** or even ***** if you're looking for an easy army to put together and paint. And you can get your head around Phase Out, and know how to make it less bad.

Daemonhunters and Grey Knights (DHs, GKs): **

Witch Hunters and Sisters of Battle (WHs, SoBs): ***

Orks: *** to ***** depending on how much currency you have (horde army). Extra points because it's the more useful of the AoBR Starter Armies. So, a decent Ork army actually comes stock in the 'newbie box'.

Imperial Guard (IG): * to ***** depending on how much currency you have. A ***** IG army is the single-most expensive army in the entire game. Even more than Daemonhunters.

Chaos Daemons (Daemons, CDs): *

Still to come;
Chaos Daemons, Imperial Guard, Daemon and Witch Hunters and Orks.
All these armies I have lot of experience with. Send PMs if you believe you have advice that I might leave out.
And Tau (see below).

Actually looking for, or things I can't write myself;
More General Advice (I think I've covered most of it).
I do not (currently) have the Tau Codex and have extremely limited experience against them. Someone should PM me a complete write-up.

SEND PMs. Don't Derail Thread.
Please submit suggestions for additions to the guide to my PM box as to keep from derailing the thread. Also, try and keep it general. Specifics can be delved into after the aspiring player has picked an army.

We now return you to your scheduled program of in the Grim Darkness of the Future.

Where we left off;
Cheesegear was entering a gaming challenge of creating a 2500 point army in four to five months. Primarily considering Daemonhunters (foolishly with pure Grey Knights), Necrons, Tyranids or Chaos Daemons.
Kinslayer was posting his Imperial Guard Army List.
Archetype- was about to post his army.
WitchHunters and Grey Knights may or may not be facing some harsh times in the future.

[Forrestfire]

First! ...

Hey, can anybody critique my list for a 1000-point wolfwing army?

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HQ:
Logan Grimnar

Troops:
5 Wolf Guard Terminators
-1 w/ storm bolter, wolf claw, cyclone missile launcher
-2 w/ twin wolf claws
-1 w/ combi-flamer, power weapon
-1 w/ power fist, storm bolter

4 Wolf Guard Terminators
-1 w/ storm bolter, power weapon, cyclone missile launcher
-2 w/ frost blades, storm bolters
-1 w/ power fist, storm bolter
-Drop Pod

Heavy Support
Land Raider Crusader

Total = 1000

[Keris]

I doubt they will get rid of them, after all they haven't gotten rid of an army since the squats and they have kept DE around (and best keep them around) since 3rd edition.

DH and WH are 3rd edition as well, you know.

Is the forum's clock off? My computer, watch, and cell phone all seem to say it's ten before the hour, yet I apparently posted at twenty before.

Yes. The forum clock runs slightly slow, and is corrected every once in a while. At the moment, it's 10~11 minutes off.

WitchHunters and Grey Knights may or may not be facing some harsh times in the future.

According to my local GW, it's most likely a sign of a new codex coming in 6 months or so. The same thing apparently happened to 'nids, so it may well be looking up for the =][=. However, they didn't know anything for sure, and the guy I spoke with couldn't recall how long it was between the 'nid 'dex disappearing and the new one being announced.

[Cheesegear]

Hey, can anybody critique my list for a 1000-point wolfwing list?

Yes.

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Logan Grimnar

...I guess you kind of have to. Still, he's very good. If not a tad expensive for 1000 points.

5 Wolf Guard Terminators
-1 w/ storm bolter, wolf claw, cyclone missile launcher
-2 w/ twin wolf claws
-1 w/ combi-flamer, power weapon
-1 w/ power fist, storm bolter

4 Wolf Guard Terminators
-1 w/ storm bolter, power weapon, cyclone missile launcher
-2 w/ frost blades, storm bolters
-1 w/ power fist, storm bolter
-Drop Pod

Problem is, you're going to need a few more Troops than that. In 1000 points, you should be looking at 3/4 Troops units. And this unit has 2 units. All up. I forsee great problems in this army's future.
I'd probably trade the Cyclones for Assault Cannons.

Land Raider Crusader

Yep. Again. Spending 250 points for a single model in 1000 points is getting a bit expensive. And the Crusader doesn't even sport Lascannons. Which you may need if you're using the Cyclones as Frag Missiles - which you kind of should.

Yeah, main problem is not enough units.

According to my local GW, it's most likely a sign of a new codex coming in 6 months or so. The same thing apparently happened to 'nids, so it may well be looking up for the =][=.

Originally posted by Cheesegear
Best guesses put Codex: Inquistion (rumours also say that 'Codex: Grey Knights' will be a completely different book) at November 2010. At the earliest. But we have been fooled by rumours before.
As WHFB 8th Ed. is in the works after Blood Angels, and following that, new Empire and whatever the other army is in the new starter box.
And rumour has it that Necrons, Dark Angels or Dark Eldar are after that. Black Templars appear to be stooged.

Usually when things are 'taken away', GW can usually confirm that a new army is about to happen. For example, GW knew that Tyranids were being taken away to make way for a new army. They knew why 'Beasts of Chaos' wasn't getting any more stock. They know why they can't order new Basalisks or Venerable Dreadnoughts.
...They can't confirm that Codex: Inquistion (or similar) is happening any time soon. Therefore, it probably isn't.

[crazedloon]

Kinslayer here was my review of your list

and if they do reprint DH and WH before DE that would be rather troublesome but than that may be my preference

[One Step Two]

From a marketing point of view, with a re-release imminent, it wouldn't be that bad an idea to halt all distribution of the older product, causing a minor sales frenzy on the item if people think they are going to be replaced for those who enjoy the older models before they release new ones. But it could be my vain hope and optimism that we may be seeing plastic GK and SoB (which would be fantastic).

Also, I did a little number crunching for my Eldar list, and came up with something different.

Spoiler

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Avatar - 155

7 Striking Scorpions + Exarch w/ Powerclaw, Infriltrate and move through cover - 180

8 Dire Avengers + Autarch w/ Dual Shruiken Catapults, Bladestorm - 140

5 Eldar Pathfinders - 120

6 Guardian Jetbikes w/ 2x Shriken Cannons - 152

All told it gives me a little more flexibility in deployment, using the Pathfinders as I wanted before to hold remote objectives, the Dire Avengers as mid-field objective grabbers, the Scorpions can clean out objectives in the enemy side of the board aslong as they aren't subject to too much hate, and the Avatar to soak up enemy hate. But in the format I am lacking anti-tank very much save the Avatar himself, and if my opponent is canny enough to stymie him with a big unit in close combat, he'll become somewhat lack-lustre. Any opinions?

[Mattarias, King.]

Sweeet. Love the new thread title, Cheesegear. I personally take the pulling of Witchhunters stuff as a sign of a new codex coming out. Hopefully I can be patient long enough to get some sweet new plastic ladies. Here's to hoping.

If they pull us, though.. Well, I'm not letting my local DE player complain anymore.

Speaking of DE, I hear all their models are done, apparently. Interesting. I hope they're doing work on the =I= as well.

Sidenote: Just finished my Immolator! Yay!

[Archetype-]

Yes. The forum clock runs slightly slow, and is corrected every once in a while. At the moment, it's 10~11 minutes off.

Ah, thank you. Somehow I never noticed that. It's like how I asked someone at Wal-Mart where the gloves are when they're five feet to my right and in plain view.

Now, the main attraction:

Archetype- was about to post his army.

Very true. I have a not-so-unique conundrum. Three lists (all open to reasonable alteration, of course), and only enough resources for one. I'm not fond of reacting and/or stationary gaming, so I'm trying to stay as mobile as I can. If I can have some variety so it's not quite so dull, all the better. I'm aiming for a 1500 point all-rounder for casual play (most everyone around here is quite casual).

The first one here is my hybrid mech/gunline:

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HQ

Company Command Squad
-Company Commander w/power sword
Cost: 60 points

This one is the most open to change, as all it has is a guy with a shiny metal stick. It's simply there to give orders to the Infantry Platoons, notably the heavy weapon squads. Best alteration I can come up with is swamping for dual sniper rifles or grenade launchers, but there's definitely not a lack of the latter.


Troops

Infantry Platoon Alpha

Platoon Command Squad
-1 flamer
Cost: 40 points

Again, it's there to issue orders. Of course, it's mostly going to be FRFSRF until late game (then it'll be Move! For objective-snagging).

1st Infantry Squad
-grenade launcher
-autocannon
Cost: 65 points

2nd Infantry Squad
-grenade launcher
-autocannon
Cost: 65 points

3rd Infantry Squad
-grenade launcher
-autocannon
Cost: 65 points

The job of the grunts is to provide fire support against anything that's not a heavy tank or MC. Late game, they're obviously going to scoot for objectives.

1st Heavy Weapon Squad
-3 missile launchers
Cost: 90 points

These are the anchors of the firebase. Transports, monstrous creatures, and lightly-armored hordes are what they'll be aiming at (hopefully with the aid of Bring It Down!).

Platoon Cost: 320 points

Infantry Platoon Bravo

<snip>

Platoon Bravo is exactly the same as Platoon Alpha. Congratulations, I've given you a reason to be lazy.

1st Veteran Squad
-3 meltaguns
-Chimera w/hull heavy flamer
Cost: 155 points

2nd Veteran Squad
-3 meltaguns
-Chimera w/hull heavy flamer
Cost: 155 points

Land Raiders beware! These veterans are coming for you with their trio of fusion-HA!


Fast Attack

Bane Wolf
-hull heavy flamer
Cost: 130 points

Some quick anti-MEQ with some fire-spewing goodness.

Heavy Support

Leman Russ Vanquisher
-hull lascannon
-camo netting
Cost: 190 points

So I can start hitting the big, scary stuff early. Not quite so accurate, but when deployed in cover it's freakishly resilient.

Leman Russ Battle Tank
-sponson heavy bolters
Cost: 170 points

You have a toughness value? Do you have power armor or worse? Then this thing's guns have your name written all over it! Happy Deathday!

Total Cost: 1500 points

Some good variety here, and I think the parts can work rather well together. However, it's the least mobile of the three lists I've drawn up. This one is my least favorite because of that lack of mobility.

The next two are fully mechanized, so I'll get the dull-looking one out of the way first.

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HQ

Company Command Squad
-Company Commander w/plasma pistol
-3 plasma guns
-carapace armor
-Chimera w/hull heavy flamer
Cost: 180 points

Since it's hard (read: not legal) to give orders to a unit inside a transport, I've opted to increase their killing potential with a truckload of plasma. Thanks to the carapace, my troopers are more likely to survive an overheat. Add in a Chimera and they're fairly mobile.


Troops

1st Veteran Squad
-3 meltaguns
-Chimera
Cost: 155 points

The tri-melta Vet squad in a Chimera. Delivering accurate meltagun fire to enemy tanks since 2009!

2nd-4th Veteran Squad
<snip>

Yeah, the other three Vet squads are the same. Nothing special.

Fast Attack

Hellhound
-hull heavy flamer
Cost: 130 points

Hellhound
-hull heavy flamer
Cost: 130 points

Something won't stop lurking in cover? Those Pathfinders/Ratlings/Scouts not getting the hell out of those ruins? Send in the Hellhounds to burn their butts out of there! You here me, cowards? GET YOUR FLAMING BUTTS OUT OF MY RUIN!

Heavy Support

Leman Russ Demolisher
-hull lascannon
-sponson plasma cannons
Cost: 220 points

Leman Russ Demolisher
-hull lascannon
-sponson plasma cannons
Cost: 220 points

The least subtle units in the whole list, and with IG that's saying something. They just basically obliterate anything their guns can reach, Monoliths included (never a 'Cron player field more than one, though...).

Total Cost: 1500 points

No real subtlety to the list here. Just spam, spam, and spam. It's mobile, but pretty dull to look at.

And now, some mech for variety's sake.

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HQ

Company Command Squad
-Company Commander w/plasma pistol
-3 Veterans w/plasma gun
-1 Veteran w/medi-pack
-Chimera w/hull heavy flamer
Cost: 190 points

It's like the one in the previous list, but I've ditched the carapace for Feel No Pain. I like Feel No Pain, especially when it allows my men to survive a .75 caliber explosive round to the torso. For a bit.

Troops

1st Veteran Squad
-3x meltagun
-Chimera w/hull heavy flamer
Cost: 155 points

Yep, tri-melta Vets in a tank. Whoopee.

2nd-4th Veteran Squad
<snip>

Yep, the others are exactly the same.


Fast Attack

Hellhound
-Hull heavy flamer
Cost: 130 points

Why are you still not out of my ruin, campers? DO YOU LIKE BEING MY ROAST?


Heavy Support

Leman Russ Demolisher
-Hull lascannon
-Sponson plasma cannons
Cost: 220 points

Yep, a Demolisher. General close-to-mid range fire support. Can you tell this is my favorite variant?

Leman Russ Battle Tank
Cost: 150 points

Added for the sake of adding another Russ to shoot at. Also, battle cannons are fun.

Leman Russ Vanquisher
-Hull lascannon
-Camo netting
Cost: 190 points

'Cause I feel I “need” to start hitting the armor on turn one while camping in a ruin or forest.


Total Cost: 1500 points

Obviously more variety than the second list's “Spamalot”, but still quite mobile. It's the one I'm leaning towards, but like the other two it's still open to reasonable adaptation (within my limited funding).

For models, I have enough lasguns and grenade launchers to go any route (thanks to a friend of mine and his trade of my unused Dark Elves for some old IG models). I already have two Demolishers, three Chimeras, and a Hellhound. I only have four heavy weapons teams (two MLs and two ACs), and I can only really buy them in groups of four. I can easily go with just about any Commander set-up thanks to the Cadian Command box, even though the Commander's already assembled (gives me an excuse to use my Exact-o knife). I would really like to be both mobile and varied in composition, and would prefer it if I could steer clear of the artillery tanks like the Bassie.

Thanks in advance! Now I'm off to make me some chicken a la Dimmu Borgir.

-Archetype

[Ninja Chocobo]

1500 points of Orks!

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HQ: 235 points
Warboss: 150 points.
-Power Klaw
-Attack Squig
-Warbike
-Cybork Body

Weirdboy: 85 points.
-Warp'ead

Troop: 1038 points
30x Shoota Boyz: 235 points
-3x Big Shoota
-Nob
-Power Klaw
-Bosspole

30x Gretchin: 135 points
-3x Runtherd
-3x Grot-Prod

10x Nobz: 668 points
-Warbikes
-Cyborks
-Stikkbombs
-Painboy with Grot Orderly
-Stock
-Stock with Ammo Runt
-Kombi-Skorcha
-Waaagh! Banner
-Power Klaw
-Power Klaw, Bosspole
-Power Klaw, Kombi-Skorcha
-Big Choppa
-Big Choppa, Kombi-Skorcha

Elites: 225 points
15x Lootas: 225 points

Tactics:

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Weirdboy runs with the Shootas for psyker support. The boyz are boyz, not much to say there.

Gretchin are there to camp on objectives in cover in that sort of mission, and for monstrous creature hunting in annihilation. Poisoned weapons are always good.

Lootas are anti-light vehicle and infantry.

Warboss and Nobz are all-purpose krumping. Tanks get four PKs to the rear, infantry gets 33 TL Dakkagun shots.

The idea with this list is to minimise KPs while maximising the longevity of my troops. Gretchin may totally suck, but 33 ablative wounds with a 4+ save will take some time to get through.

[Arcanoi]

1500 points of Orks!

Spoiler

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HQ: 235 points
Warboss: 150 points.
-Power Klaw
-Attack Squig
-Warbike
-Cybork Body

Weirdboy: 85 points.
-Warp'ead

Troop: 1038 points
30x Shoota Boyz: 235 points
-3x Big Shoota
-Nob
-Power Klaw
-Bosspole

30x Gretchin: 135 points
-3x Runtherd
-3x Grot-Prod

10x Nobz: 668 points
-Warbikes
-Cyborks
-Stikkbombs
-Painboy with Grot Orderly
-Stock
-Stock with Ammo Runt
-Kombi-Skorcha
-Waaagh! Banner
-Power Klaw
-Power Klaw, Bosspole
-Power Klaw, Kombi-Skorcha
-Big Choppa
-Big Choppa, Kombi-Skorcha

Elites: 225 points
15x Lootas: 225 points

Tactics:

Spoiler

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Weirdboy runs with the Shootas for psyker support. The boyz are boyz, not much to say there.

Gretchin are there to camp on objectives in cover in that sort of mission, and for monstrous creature hunting in annihilation. Poisoned weapons are always good.

Lootas are anti-light vehicle and infantry.

Warboss and Nobz are all-purpose krumping. Tanks get four PKs to the rear, infantry gets 33 TL Dakkagun shots.

The idea with this list is to minimise KPs while maximising the longevity of my troops. Gretchin may totally suck, but 33 ablative wounds with a 4+ save will take some time to get through.

I would personally split your Nobs and Lootas into two squads. Beyond that... you have a disappointing amount of... Orks for 1500 points.

[Thatguyoverther]

The first one here is my hybrid mech/gunline:

Spoiler

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HQ

Company Command Squad
-Company Commander w/power sword
Cost: 60 points

This one is the most open to change, as all it has is a guy with a shiny metal stick. It's simply there to give orders to the Infantry Platoons, notably the heavy weapon squads. Best alteration I can come up with is swamping for dual sniper rifles or grenade launchers, but there's definitely not a lack of the latter.


Troops

Infantry Platoon Alpha

Platoon Command Squad
-1 flamer
Cost: 40 points

Again, it's there to issue orders. Of course, it's mostly going to be FRFSRF until late game (then it'll be Move! For objective-snagging).

1st Infantry Squad
-grenade launcher
-autocannon
Cost: 65 points

2nd Infantry Squad
-grenade launcher
-autocannon
Cost: 65 points

3rd Infantry Squad
-grenade launcher
-autocannon
Cost: 65 points

The job of the grunts is to provide fire support against anything that's not a heavy tank or MC. Late game, they're obviously going to scoot for objectives.

1st Heavy Weapon Squad
-3 missile launchers
Cost: 90 points

These are the anchors of the firebase. Transports, monstrous creatures, and lightly-armored hordes are what they'll be aiming at (hopefully with the aid of Bring It Down!).

Platoon Cost: 320 points

Infantry Platoon Bravo

<snip>

Platoon Bravo is exactly the same as Platoon Alpha. Congratulations, I've given you a reason to be lazy.

1st Veteran Squad
-3 meltaguns
-Chimera w/hull heavy flamer
Cost: 155 points

2nd Veteran Squad
-3 meltaguns
-Chimera w/hull heavy flamer
Cost: 155 points

Land Raiders beware! These veterans are coming for you with their trio of fusion-HA!


Fast Attack

Bane Wolf
-hull heavy flamer
Cost: 130 points

Some quick anti-MEQ with some fire-spewing goodness.

Heavy Support

Leman Russ Vanquisher
-hull lascannon
-camo netting
Cost: 190 points

So I can start hitting the big, scary stuff early. Not quite so accurate, but when deployed in cover it's freakishly resilient.

Leman Russ Battle Tank
-sponson heavy bolters
Cost: 170 points

You have a toughness value? Do you have power armor or worse? Then this thing's guns have your name written all over it! Happy Deathday!

Total Cost: 1500 points

Some good variety here, and I think the parts can work rather well together. However, it's the least mobile of the three lists I've drawn up. This one is my least favorite because of that lack of mobility.

-Archetype

I like this one the most, but I've always taken additional firepower over mobility.

Personally I've never liked the IG flame tanks. I'd dump the bane wolf and replace it with a platoon command squad in a chimera with flamers. You won't be as fast or tough but it's give you a total of 3 heavy flamers and 3 normal flamers. It also has the added bonus of being able to cap objectives.

I'd dump the commander's power weapon and give the squad some weapon upgrades. Maybe sniper rifles to utilize their BS4.

Other than that, it looks pretty good to me.

[Shas aia Toriia]

Quick question on Space Marines - how many Assault Marines does one need before they become effective?
Like, 1 squad of 10?
3 of 5?

Yes, Cheesegear, I know - if I'm taking Assault Marines, then how do I put in all the bikers I'll no doubt need to add to my army?

[Thatguyoverther]

Quick question on Space Marines - how many Assault Marines does one need before they become effective?
Like, 1 squad of 10?
3 of 5?

Yes, Cheesegear, I know - if I'm taking Assault Marines, then how do I put in all the bikers I'll no doubt need to add to my army?

It depends allot on who you're facing and at what point level. Against shooty armies like the IG and Tau just about any size'll hurt, provided you make it into assault range. If you expect to face a horde army a bigger squad might be a better bet.

Even a small squad of well placed deep striking assault marines can put a crimp in an opponent's plans.

[Forrestfire]

stuff

So should I drop the raider for another squad? Also, I just realized that squads with 4 or less can't have heavy weapons... Maybe I should just use the deathwing list for my grots... With 130 points for the HQ instead of 270, and no need for drop pods, I'd have a much higher model count... hmm...

EDIT: I made an alternate list with the dark angels codex:

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HQ
Belial, Master of the Deathwing w/ twin lightning claws

Troops
Deathwing Terminator Squad
-Sergeant w/ power sword, assault cannon
-Standard Bearer w/ deathwing company banner, twin lightning claws
-Apothecary w/ narthecium/reductor, twin lightning claws
-2 w/ twin lightning claws

Deathwing Terminator Squad
-Sergeant w/ power sword, assault cannon
-2 w/ storm bolters, power fists
-2 w/ twin lightning claws

Deathwing Terminator Squad
-Sergeant w/ power sword, storm bolter, cyclone missile launcher
-2 w/ storm bolters, power fists
-2 w/ twin lightning claws

Heavy Support
Vindicator w/ pintle-mounted storm bolter, dozer blade

Total: 1000

[evisiron]

Lycan: Nice suggestion for the title. It looks good up there.

Cheesegear: Sweet, I love following Tale Of 4 Gamers-esque army growth blogs.
It's disappointing to hear you are avoiding Orks. If no-one uses them, jump on it! It is a great army that can evolve its purpose but still use the core units - da boys! - and follow a great Waaagh format for army fluff.

But, since it may not be an option, I am chipping my vote for Tyranids. No-one in my group plays them and I would be very interested to see how they grow, and it's pretty far from your existing Biker Legion.

DCGFTW: I would recommend against so many points in one unit. Nob bikers can be pretty awesome, but they can die. Even a single ordinance round can gut the unit with an unlucky set of rolls. I would reduce the unit a bit and perhaps take another shoota boy unit, perhaps a small one in a trukk coming in from reserves when the tanks are dead.

Also, beware the wierdboy in that big unit. If you get stuck with a deep strike, they will have a really hard time landing with such a large footprint.

[Thatguyoverther]

I was thinking about putting up an after action report. Would it be better off here or in another separate thread? A thread dedicated to players posting AARs would be awesome, if of course, there we're enough people interested.

[crazedloon]

I was thinking about putting up an after action report. Would it be better off here or in another separate thread? A thread dedicated to players posting AARs would be awesome, if of course, there we're enough people interested.

I would say post it hear and maybe we can throw some thoughts out about the tactics used during the game

[Archetype-]

I like this one the most, but I've always taken additional firepower over mobility.

I don't remember if I mentioned it above, but mobility is what I'm going for here. Don't get me wrong, I like having good firepower. I just don't like staying put to utilize it. I'd rather be more.... aggresive and dynamic, slamming into enemy lines with the force of a furious storm. The sole reason I came up with that list was to figure out how to (effectively) fit in the ~90 infantry models a friend of mine traded to me.

Personally I've never liked the IG flame tanks. I'd dump the bane wolf and replace it with a platoon command squad in a chimera with flamers. You won't be as fast or tough but it's give you a total of 3 heavy flamers and 3 normal flamers. It also has the added bonus of being able to cap objectives.

One issue with that. I can only have one PCS per Platoon. I could upgrade one PCS to the set-up you suggest, leaving me 55 points to distribute elsewhere. The problem remains that the list overall is too static for my tastes.

I'd dump the commander's power weapon and give the squad some weapon upgrades. Maybe sniper rifles to utilize their BS4.

I figured as much anyways. Either that or a cheap heavy weapon.

Thanks for the advice.

-Archetype

[Cheesegear]

But it could be my vain hope and optimism that we may be seeing plastic GK and SoB (which would be fantastic).

I've been told that both DHs and WHs are on the home-stretch. Whatever is left now, is all there is. And Mail Order will probably continue selling until they run out. But, since it is direct order, they do have a lot of stock. Once stock runs out, that's it.

...But, they are looking at a revamp - probably - but, not anytime soon. Basically, those who already have them can keep playing them. No-one's stopping them. Those who are looking to get into it, it might not be a good idea.

Also, I did a little number crunching for my Eldar list, and came up with something different.

Right.

Spoiler

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Avatar - 155

Always unfair in 1000 points. Keep it up.

7 Striking Scorpions + Exarch w/ Powerclaw, Infriltrate and move through cover - 180

Perfectly fine.

8 Dire Avengers + Autarch w/ Dual Shruiken Catapults, Bladestorm - 140

...You mean Exarch right? Not Autarch?

5 Eldar Pathfinders - 120

6 Guardian Jetbikes w/ 2x Shriken Cannons - 152

Great.

But in the format I am lacking anti-tank very much save the Avatar himself, and if my opponent is canny enough to stymie him with a big unit in close combat, he'll become somewhat lack-lustre. Any opinions?

Exactly what you said right there.

Quick question on Space Marines - how many Assault Marines does one need before they become effective?
Like, 1 squad of 10?

Full strength squads - or near full-strength. Always. Personally, I never go with less than 8. And I never run any without an attached Chaplain. They tend to kill half of any non-power armoured army by themselves.

Yes, Cheesegear, I know - if I'm taking Assault Marines, then how do I put in all the bikers I'll no doubt need to add to my army?

...Is this a joke?
...You take a Captain on Bike, and make all your Bike Squads Troops, thereby freeing all your FA slots for Land Speeders and Scout Bikes Assault Marines...I guess...Win.

EDIT: I made an alternate list with the dark angels codex:

And it is much better. Save for the fact that your pick 'n' mixing your squads. It might seem like a nice idea. But, it isn't. You should have as many Storm Bolters and Assault Cannons as you can.

[Winterwind]

And I think it's time for the next entry in the "Winter asks questions about rules for incredibly specific and rare situations that happen once in a decade for no reason"-series.

Let's say there is a large close-combat battle taking place - side A has one unit in that close-combat, side B has two units, both of which are Fearless.
And then side B loses that combat anyway, let's say by 5 points.
Side B's units are subject to the No Retreat! rule, and suffer additional wounds.
But how many? Is it 5 wounds each for both of the units in that combat, or is it 5 wounds total which get distributed somehow (and if so, how?) on these two units?

My assumption is it's 5 wounds total, distributed by the player controlling side B however s/he sees fit, but I'd rather know for sure.

[Blackknight1239]

And I think it's time for the next entry in the "Winter asks questions about rules for incredibly specific and rare situations that happen once in a decade for no reason"-series.

Let's say there is a large close-combat battle taking place - side A has one unit in that close-combat, side B has two units, both of which are Fearless.
And then side B loses that combat anyway, let's say by 5 points.
Side B's units are subject to the No Retreat! rule, and suffer additional wounds.
But how many? Is it 5 wounds each for both of the units in that combat, or is it 5 wounds total which get distributed somehow (and if so, how?) on these two units?

My assumption is it's 5 wounds total, distributed by the player controlling side B however s/he sees fit, but I'd rather know for sure.

Hmm. I'm pretty sure both side B's units take 5 wounds. The No Retreat! states that the losing side takes as many wounds as it has lost by. Now, to decide how much a side lost by, you tally up the kills on both sides. If one side lost by 5, both would have to take a leadership test at -5. But because of the No Retreat! rule, 5 wounds are inflicted on the unit instead.

[Cheesegear]

Hmm. I'm pretty sure both side B's units take 5 wounds.

That's what I read too. I was then looking for like, ten minutes for a loophole around it. Turns out, all B's units will take 5 wounds if they lose by five.

Then checked the FAQ...Nothing.

Moral of the story; Don't Assault the same target with more than one Fearless unit.

Hmm. I'm pretty sure both side B's units take 5 wounds.

That's what I read too. I was then looking for like, ten minutes for a loophole around it. Turns out, all B's units will take 5 wounds if they lose by five.

Then checked the FAQ...Nothing.

Moral of the story; Don't Assault the same target with more than one Fearless unit.

[Winterwind]

Hmm. I'm pretty sure both side B's units take 5 wounds. The No Retreat! states that the losing side takes as many wounds as it has lost by. Now, to decide how much a side lost by, you tally up the kills on both sides. If one side lost by 5, both would have to take a leadership test at -5. But because of the No Retreat! rule, 5 wounds are inflicted on the unit instead.

Hmmm... I understand your logic, but on the other hand, couldn't one argue that if 5 wounds were inflicted on both units, the losing side would be taking 10 wounds total (in contradiction to No Retreat! stating it should take as many wounds as it lost by?)

That's what I read too. I was then looking for like, ten minutes for a loophole around it. Turns out, all B's units will take 5 wounds if they lose by five.

Then checked the FAQ...Nothing.

Moral of the story; Don't Assault the same target with more than one Fearless unit.

Or at least if you do, do not lose that combat.

[Cheesegear]

Also, on the army-blog front, I just envisioned a Grey Knights army at 2500 points.

HQ - Grey Knight Hero
Elites - Grey Knight Terminators
Troops - Grey Knights
Fast Attack - Grey Knights with Teleport!
Heavy Support - Grey Knights with Special Weapons, Dreadnoughts (should be Elites, IMO) and Land Raiders.
(Nearly all metal )

Basically, I only have one Troop type. A Fast Attack choice that is exactly the same as the Troops choice. And Heavy Support choices exactly the same as the Troop choices.
...I think I might give GKs a miss. It just doesn't sound like fun collecting 1500 points of the same unit.
And the Elites choice is the Troop choice, just slightly better.

Also, if I take my friend's advice, a 2500 point Necron army should have 1000+ points worth of Warriors. Immortals are 'just better Warriors'. And Destroyers are 'Immortals on Jetbikes'.
That being said, I've been meaning to start a Necron army for quite some time.

Sooo...Tyranid Warrior Army activate? If you're looking for a 'normal' Tyranid army, this wont be it. I have a habit of making slightly absurd (yet awesome) lists.
Necrons or Tau?
Or Chaos Daemons if you guys hate me.

Also had a glance at Battle Missions. KILL TEAMS ARE BACK!!!!

[Winterwind]

I'm still in favour of the Daemons. I think an army that plays so completely differently than all the others, with their special Demonic-Assault-Everything-Deepstrikes rules and such, would be the most interesting to observe.

EDIT: Though I don't want you to think that I hate you! If you do not actually want to play/collect those, by all means, don't!

[Gauntlet]

I'm thinking of starting up collecting.. something.. for a new army. I'm bored of the Blood Angels and Eldar don't really fit my play style. What'd you recommend? I've been considering these options:
- Ork tank spam
- Necrons of some flavor or other
- Tau armored stuff
- Daemons. Just because they look fun and no-one I know runs them.

[Cheesegear]

I'm bored of the Blood Angels and Eldar don't really fit my play style. What'd you recommend? I've been considering these options:
- Ork tank spam
- Necrons of some flavor or other
- Tau armored stuff
- Daemons. Just because they look fun and no-one I know runs them.

Orks can tank spam? At best they can have 3 Wagons. And another 3-5 Battlewagons for Dedicated Transports for Nobz. You really want to do that?
Necrons only have one flavour.
Tau Devilfish Armies of Doom are scary stuff when done right.

Daemons are not fun. Daemons are hard to learn, and impossible to master.

I'm assuming that since you're bored of Blood Angels, you want something that doesn't spend it's whole time Assaulting? Well, you could go full 180 and take Tau - who never Assault if they can help it.

[Gauntlet]

Sorry, when I typed tank spam I was meaning Speed Freeks.

And when I say I'm bored of blood angels, I'm not quite meaning that. It's more that I want to have an army where most of my stuff is impervious to small arms fire (I recently played a Guard army where one assault squad minced 3 units while being rapid fired by 30/20/10 lasguns every turn). I get bored of having half as many units as the people I fight and getting the same results every game (Bombard with a few heavy weapons for a turn or two, land speeder gets blown to hell, I get into combat and mince some stuff, end).

Just to clarify, I'm a casual player and I'm pretty much never over 1500 points. Usually 500-1000, but occasionaly I drop in on bigger games at the local GW store.

[Selrahc]

Daemons are not fun. Daemons are hard to learn, and impossible to master.

*If* things go right though they can be reassuringly stabby.

I'd second Devilfish army. Thats partly because I love the concept of mechanized infantry, and the Tau are pretty much the best at that. One of my friends has a devilfish army and it works pretty well.

[Cheesegear]

*If* things go right though they can be reassuringly stabby.

Fixed it for you.