My Little Pony XXXV: The Thread Everypony Should Know

[Gaelbert]

Let's be fair, though. This crazy American bloke is offering you a room after a long trip. In all honesty, I'm surprised I've received the two affirmatives I have; this would be downright creepy I it were posted anywhere else, and if you all didn't have confirmation from other ponyfolks that I'm on the level.

You think that sounds creepy? You're planning on using cartoon ponies to entice people to get in a massive van, and then you're taking them across state borders.
I mean, I'm (hopefully) going to go with you, but still.
It's an awesome idea though, I don't mean to sound critical.

[Lix Lorn]

No, no, if it was't you, specifically, that have said that it never would have occurred to me and everything would have been fine! It's totally your fault!

That's his story and I'm sticking to it!

Hopereaver... Wait, was that-

Ha, fair enough.

*skulldesk*

Are you happy now, Hopereaver?

Ahahaha! *nods furiously*...ahahahahaha! Best. Ahahahaha! Song. Ever! Ahahahaha! Ahaha. Ahh... *wipes tears from her eyes*

...

You're so going to hurt me now, aren't you?

Oh, you have no idea.

That reminds me!
lichyRP thingy

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Hey, Hopereaver, come over here! I wanna do you a favour. :3

>_>
<_<
*Slips an eCookie*

I may have sung that out loud.

You're not the only one.

Incidentally, you wouldn't know of any space-based magical death ray-proof bunkers, would you?

(giggles)
Hey, if I say you're on my side he may count you as under my diplomacy shield. Wanna join the Bishie Plane's Harem?

That's what I figured. I've been thinking about it and wondering how much of the difference is based off the slight language variance. I've actually been wondering how you would pronounce tyranid on its own, as I can think of a couple variations.

It's also possible I just have different tastes in preferred sounds than you. Heaven knows I'm strange with the aural resonances.

Ty as in Tim. Ra as in ran. And nid that rhymes with did. Tyranid.

epic pony lack detected
Redirecting pony feeds

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That dress is too high up for her to have underwear in that pic.

New headcanon: Rainbow Dash = Equestria's version of Dave Strider

Next big thing?

she killed me mal killed me with a sword how weird is that?
Stretch

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Prettiful tho

[Anarion]

(giggles)
Hey, if I say you're on my side he may count you as under my diplomacy shield. Wanna join the Bishie Plane's Harem?

No, that would just be silly.

[Thanqol]

I’m thrifty to the point of stingy. I rarely purchase things, I cut back on food so I don’t have to pay as much, etc. But when it comes to ponies? I have a shirt, stickers, and a few dozen figurines. Lauren Faust found the secret to my wallet. (Hint: It’s my heartstrings. Lyra I love you!)

Having looked through my Lyra folder again recently, Lyra is best pony.

That’s amazing Thanqol. I never ceased to be awed by your creative potential (and the community’s as a whole, I might add).

Thank you

What is this pony-ness, you might ask?
Well, I’m happy to oblige!
“You’re talking to yourself again.”
No I’m not, people want to know!
“People? What is a people?”
They’re like ponies except a lot less cool. And- wait, who are you and how did you get in my brain?
“Poni poni poni poni poni poni poni.”
Good answer. Anyways.

Good to see somepony else has a little MPD going on.

Ponythread TF2? Aww yeah. My Steam name’s Gaelbert. I’ve been playing medic recently (not well, just playing it). I have a name change item that I’ve been meaning to use. I want to change the name of my medigun to something about Fluttershy. Anypony have any ideas?

"Pray I Keep Using This"

Say you have two identical cars parked next to each other. One of the cars is yours, the other is your neighbours. Say every night a gang of hoodlums and delinquents takes a part from your car, and switches it a part with your neighbour’s car. They do this every night, until eventually all parts are changed. Which car is yours? Did it ever change? What was the margin?

It changes when you notice it happening!

John Cage is a pretty chill brony. I have major respect for 4’33”

I wish I was famous enough to be that pretentious.

I have absolutely no respect for 'art' which does not demonstrate technical skill on behalf of the artist. If it's just a random collection of sounds or images then any critical appreciation thereof is just a bunch of pretentious guys standing around patting each other on the back for being clever enough to 'get' it.

I'm not fussed by the medium. I once saw a piece of modern art where the guy had cut a 3D house into the pages of an enormous book, and it was fantastic. I just have complete contempt for the guy who puts a red square on a blue background and calls it a day.

You might be surprised. There’s a movement of electronic music producers trying to push the boundaries of what can be considered “music.” I’m working on an album of that sort, actually. It both excites and frightens me. This could be the final frontier of music. I’m still not sure though. When everything is music, can anything be?

Ah, I'm one of those boring traditionalists who is quite sure that not everything can be music. There has to be skill evident, even in disharmony. I can listen to bizarre sounding things as long as it was bizarre for a deliberate reason.

Basically, for me to consider it good, as art or music, it has to be the successful execution of a concept. The concept doesn't matter so much.

I would hate to be a relationship like that. I don’t want to be the same as another person, I want to learn from them, care about them, interact with them, see them as a whole and distinct person.

I believe the point is that the relationship has stages, and that is one of the final ones. It's not something you want, or don't want - it just is.

Lines like those have their place in some music. Some genres are about the rage, the anger, and a line like that would be perfectly in place. But pony music? No. Not at all.

Except for the shouting is magic series.

Thank you monkeyboyinc. Now, I see that no one responded to it (except for a couple of people. Thank you SiuS and Leo, I really appreciate it.) It’s a little ironic, actually, that a note praising the community for its inclusive feel was ignored.

Really, I’m not. But I would appreciate it if you folks could give it a read through. It’s important to me, it comes from the heart. I’ll post it here, again, if you don’t mind. (I suppose I’ll post it here even if people do mind, but I hope they don’t. If people mind, I suppose I could edit it out. But I can’t imagine that happening.)

I actually didn't reply because I didn't agree with the decision at all. I thought the decision to leave was poorly reasoned, short-term and made on entirely the wrong foundations. And I was proved right, because here you are.

Leaving something you genuinely like, and people you care about, because it's associated vaguely with something you don't like - that's what DBC did, that's what Raz did for a while. I thought both of them were completely mistaken for making that decision. I know that there are 'right' reasons to leave this community, but I did not think that this was one of them.

And so, rather than argue with a letter posted via proxy, which would essentially be arguing with myself, I passed it over.

(This is all as I understand it; not fully comprehending the situation was also a factor in remaining quiet)

Thanqol, did anything ever happen from that? Or did more important stories come up?

I'm afraid the latter.

But damn if it doesn’t hurt. So. To let off some steam, I recorded a remix. It’s… Well, you’ll see. It’s a work in progress, as I had a cold at the time, so I didn’t bother to use a noise gate, or good recording equipment, or anything like that. It’s more of a proof of concept. So please be gentle. Here it is.
Yaplap is a pretty big influence on me.

Am I hearing correctly the word "Remix" shouted over the regular song with no other changes? That's... like the musical equivalent of drawing angry eyebrows and a goatee on a picture.

As I mentioned above, I started drawing ponies. I’ve never drawn seriously before. In fact, the last time I drew anything at all (excluding the 15 minute MS Paint pony I made last year) was at least 4 years ago, perhaps much longer. So I’m weak, but I was bitten. I was bitten by the bug that makes you want to get better. I sat down every day and drew something, anything. I was astounded, to be frank, by my improvement. The last time I felt this good about anything creative was when I just started picking up classical guitar so many years ago. Drawing ponies was relaxing, it made me feel good about myself, and it helped with the struggles I was going through (and still am, to an extent). In the spoilers are some of my efforts. I’ll be cross-posting this in the Ponythread Learns to Draw thread, and hopefully I’ll stay there.

Oh, these certainly have potential. Stick with it!

Thread vs. IRC: Part II: Revenge of the Subtitle

nerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrd

That said, thanks for settling this. It's good to have a definitive answer.

[color="darkgreen"]Hey! Her mane is not stupid, it's just special! Bon-Bon is awesome and ill have none of your sass. [img]applejackface[/img]

Also, good job on the joke and the picture. That is unique, I'll admit.

It's ugly. It only looks good from one angle. If I draw it again, I'm going off model and not coming back. Her tail is pretty cool, though.

[Tectonic Robot]

~Huge Snip~

...:O

Welcome back, Gaelbert!

[Anarion]

I wish I was famous enough to be that pretentious.

I have absolutely no respect for 'art' which does not demonstrate technical skill on behalf of the artist. If it's just a random collection of sounds or images then any critical appreciation thereof is just a bunch of pretentious guys standing around patting each other on the back for being clever enough to 'get' it.

I'm not fussed by the medium. I once saw a piece of modern art where the guy had cut a 3D house into the pages of an enormous book, and it was fantastic. I just have complete contempt for the guy who puts a red square on a blue background and calls it a day.



Ah, I'm one of those boring traditionalists who is quite sure that not everything can be music. There has to be skill evident, even in disharmony. I can listen to bizarre sounding things as long as it was bizarre for a deliberate reason.

Basically, for me to consider it good, as art or music, it has to be the successful execution of a concept. The concept doesn't matter so much.

Argh, people always use the "color on field" example as a poster child for bad art, but I love the work of Mark Rothko and he did nothing but square colors on canvas.

Not to mention that many of the PMVs made in this community don't require technical skill per se, just the selection of scenes combined with music/voice-over to best create the intended effect.

I think the effect of art is what you want to judge. If someone happens to throw together a random collection of sounds or images that just coincidentally happens to please me when I hear/see it, that's art to me. If it happens to please a whole bunch of people, it might just be that the artist is on to something.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Argh, people always use the "color on field" example as a poster child for bad art, but I love the work of Mark Rothko and he did nothing but square colors on canvas.

Not to mention that many of the PMVs made in this community don't require technical skill per se, just the selection of scenes combined with music/voice-over to best create the intended effect.

I think the effect of art is what you want to judge. If someone happens to throw together a random collection of sounds or images that just coincidentally happens to please me when I hear/see it, that's art to me. If it happens to please a whole bunch of people, it might just be that the artist is on to something.

I've no objection to simple art ostensibly. But I wouldn't pay large sums of money for squares of color on canvas or want to go to a museum to see it. $20 a pop to add some tasteful coloring to an otherwise plain apartment sure.

Then there's the problem of the guy who's been through years of art school and is painting Classical/Romantic works that require far more colors use and angles and technical acumen to make look good... but its totally dead old hat trash to the art world.

[Thanqol]

Argh, people always use the "color on field" example as a poster child for bad art, but I love the work of Mark Rothko and he did nothing but square colors on canvas.

Not to mention that many of the PMVs made in this community don't require technical skill per se, just the selection of scenes combined with music/voice-over to best create the intended effect.

You've applied two counterexamples. Neither of them change my position in the slightest because they were exactly what I was talking about. I don't like the vast majority of PMVs, and I think that those square colours on canvas are a modern retelling of the Emperor's New Clothes.

I understand that other people may enjoy looking at these things, but I don't remotely understand why. I have no frame of reference. I think it's madness by some and pretentiousness by others.

I think the effect of art is what you want to judge. If someone happens to throw together a random collection of sounds or images that just coincidentally happens to please me when I hear/see it, that's art to me. If it happens to please a whole bunch of people, it might just be that the artist is on to something.

"If the unenlightened can walk the path of Heaven, then why do we study?

Because the unenlightened does not know Heaven when he holds it."

[Aotrs Commander]

(giggles)
Hey, if I say you're on my side he may count you as under my diplomacy shield.

Don't count on it.



Meditation time, I think.

That reminds me!
lichyRP thingy

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Hey, Hopereaver, come over here! I wanna do you a favour. :3

Be...right...there jus' soon...'s I c'n feel...me legs... Oh lookit the pretty colours...

[RdMarquis]

oki doki Loki! Haven't caught up yet but this came up in the car, and it really needs to be addressed before Braz spends all my money

So without further preamble...

ATTENTION EVERYPONY;
OPERATION FAUST
IS NOW IN ITS PLANNING STAGES

Nice. I live in San Francisco, and I might be able to make it. I'll get back to you in a couple of months.

I didn't want to stick this in a quotepost because I want people to read it:
NorCal/Bay Area bronies willing and able to make it to the Brony Beach Bonfire this Friday night in San Francisco, let me know so we can meet up or something. PM, email, smoke signal, homing pigeons, what have you. I want to meet some of y'all.

(Also, the final part of the quote post will be much, much smaller.)

Darn it, I have to work that night. Hope you all have fun, though.

[Excession]

Ponythread TF2? Aww yeah. My Steam name’s Gaelbert. I’ve been playing medic recently (not well, just playing it). I have a name change item that I’ve been meaning to use. I want to change the name of my medigun to something about Fluttershy. Anypony have any ideas?

Panic.

It is, after all, your answer to everything.

[Lix Lorn]

Don't count on it.

Meditation time, I think.

Oh well. I tried. xD

Be...right...there jus' soon...'s I c'n feel...me legs... Oh lookit the pretty colours...

Poor hope. (Throws a healing spell at her.)

[Kairaven]

abstract art:

now now, understand this, majority of what people consider about the "a 5 year old can do it" art that people like to think is pretentious is actually not so.

The thing is, most of the time those art are created during a certain period of an artist's career, usually after years of painstaking, detailed, classic art, study in strokes and color.

edit: (keyboard had issues and forgot this part) Now most of these art attempt to use simplicity to accentuate a certain aspect of the art composition for the viewer. be it color/lighting composition or geometric constructions. And occasionally some self and or subject references. sort of like an in-joke that the ones in the know of the references gets.
:end edit

Now the ones who like to start off their career with abstract art only, without the prior studies, nor branching off to other art subjects are more likely the type that deserves your ire, they manage to luck out with their "works"

good PMV likewise, shows a good sense of timing and editing that likely shows that the creator has some talents or has studied the sound and moving picture arrangement. I like PMV's not so much for the songs and picture but it's total composition and arrangements, sometime even humorous self and subject references.

Bad PMV will show itself to be lacking in all the above mentioned qualities.

[Anarion]

You've applied two counterexamples. Neither of them change my position in the slightest because they were exactly what I was talking about. I don't like the vast majority of PMVs, and I think that those square colours on canvas are a modern retelling of the Emperor's New Clothes.

I understand that other people may enjoy looking at these things, but I don't remotely understand why. I have no frame of reference. I think it's madness by some and pretentiousness by others.



"If the unenlightened can walk the path of Heaven, then why do we study?

Because the unenlightened does not know Heaven when he holds it."

First question, who said that quote? It's a pretty good one. I don't agree with it though. It seems to imply that studying is a chore and that if we could achieve enlightenment without studying, nobody would study. That's just silly. I love studying. I love learning and academic debate. Some subjects interest me more than others, but I don't study to achieve enlightenment or transcendence, I study because I've chosen to dedicate the major part of my life to a subject that I enjoy and that I think I'm good at (that being the law, for anyone who was not aware).

*ahem* right, back to the art conversation. For the record, I sincerely like Rothko. Not necessarily all his works by any means, but some of them have truly unique colors and are not able to be reproduced by other artists. Yes, he just used those colors and did not form shapes or images, but his work creates a tone and mood to a room. In some sense, I'm actually agreeing with you because I suggest that he painted pure colors with a level of technical skill that makes his work extremely difficult to reproduce. He simply used his skill in a non-standard way. If I had the money to do so, I would probably buy a Rothko painting.

As regards PMVs, I'll concede that many of them are not good. But I would point out that they are also heavily viewed and many inspire real emotions in a lot of people. I am very hesitant to discount the views of others as either mad or pretentious when we're talking about the realm of subjective enjoyment (I readily discount the views of others in the realm of politics and economics, on the other hand). Wouldn't most of us have said the same thing about My Little Pony a year ago?

In sum, I don't know art, but I know what I like.

And, you can put me in the madness camp I suppose. I'll at least be in good company. (Note that this does not refer to any specific individual and I felt nervous enough typing it that I felt the need to add a disclaimer).

Edit: Kairaven!

[Thanqol]

abstract art:

now now, understand this, majority of what people consider about the "a 5 year old can do it" art that people like to think is pretentious is actually not so.

The thing is, most of the time those art are created during a certain period of an artist's career, usually after years of painstaking, detailed, classic art, study in strokes and color.

edit: (keyboard had issues and forgot this part) Now most of these art attempt to use simplicity to accentuate a certain aspect of the art composition for the viewer. be it color/lighting composition or geometric constructions. And occasionally some self and or subject references. sort of like an in-joke that the ones in the know of the references gets.
:end edit

Now the ones who like to start off their career with abstract art only, without the prior studies, nor branching off to other art subjects are more likely the type that deserves your ire, they manage to luck out with their "works"

good PMV likewise, shows a good sense of timing and editing that likely shows that the creator has some talents or has studied the sound and moving picture arrangement. I like PMV's not so much for the songs and picture but it's total composition and arrangements, sometime even humorous self and subject references.

Bad PMV will show itself to be lacking in all the above mentioned qualities.

Oh, I understand this part. Hence my comment that "I wish I was famous enough to get away with stuff like that".

There are pieces of modern art I find fascinating; tricks of sculpture, light and shape that show sublime inspiration on the artist's part, as well as the skills to realise it. That impresses me; that shows that he's had a full education and is capable of a broad range of subject matter, and is making a deliberate decision to subvert expectations. Hence the book I mentioned - how does one carve pages out of a book? What tools does one use? Where did he get the idea? What does the book look like if it's opened to a different page? There's both inspiration and technical skill there.

The '5 year old' school of art demonstrates, to me, neither of those things. It's reliance on brand name and social expectations; the arrogant certainty that I can do whatever I want and people will buy it because I'm famous. And that's what gets to me; the idea that one does not need to apply oneself and seek greatness, seek improvement and instead retail garbage. Like they've lost their inner editor and instead wallow in mediocrity. And then an echo room of posers forms around them, refusing to believe that the famous artist could do any wrong and they're just not 'deep' enough to get it, so they lavish praise on something that is plainly bad.

Huh, typing that out was the first time I realised where that antipathy came from. I've learned something about myself today.

Edit: Kairaven!

Edit: Anarion!

First question, who said that quote? It's a pretty good one. I don't agree with it though. It seems to imply that studying is a chore and that if we could achieve enlightenment without studying, nobody would study. That's just silly. I love studying. I love learning and academic debate. Some subjects interest me more than others, but I don't study to achieve enlightenment or transcendence, I study because I've chosen to dedicate the major part of my life to a subject that I enjoy and that I think I'm good at (that being the law, for anyone who was not aware).

It's a Zen Koan, from The Old Master: Inspirations For Awakening.

It's not meant as a dismissal of the act of studying, it's an explanation for why non-monks can demonstrate enlightened behaviour. Or why monkeys on typewriters can produce good works.

*ahem* right, back to the art conversation. For the record, I sincerely like Rothko. Not necessarily all his works by any means, but some of them have truly unique colors and are not able to be reproduced by other artists. Yes, he just used those colors and did not form shapes or images, but his work creates a tone and mood to a room. In some sense, I'm actually agreeing with you because I suggest that he painted pure colors with a level of technical skill that makes his work extremely difficult to reproduce. He simply used his skill in a non-standard way. If I had the money to do so, I would probably buy a Rothko painting.

I'm hesitant when the gap between 'I intended to do that' and 'I totally intended to do that, you guys' seems more in the mind of the viewer than in the hand of the artist.

As regards PMVs, I'll concede that many of them are not good. But I would point out that they are also heavily viewed and many inspire real emotions in a lot of people. I am very hesitant to discount the views of others as either mad or pretentious when we're talking about the realm of subjective enjoyment (I readily discount the views of others in the realm of politics and economics, on the other hand). Wouldn't most of us have said the same thing about My Little Pony a year ago?

This, for example, demonstrates technical skill and hard work. To me, it counts as a thing worth watching. Most PMVs demonstrate some level of skill, too, so their creators don't really earn my ire. But the ones that demonstrate more skill and finesse allow their creators to better execute concepts, even if those concepts are minimalistic. I can tell that this is a good execution of a minimalistic concept. That earns a pass.

If the only enjoyment I got from watching it was what I brought to the party myself through interpretation I consider it poser art.

In sum, I don't know art, but I know what I like.

And, you can put me in the madness camp I suppose. I'll at least be in good company. (Note that this does not refer to any specific individual and I felt nervous enough typing it that I felt the need to add a disclaimer).

The madness camp is where I had filed you, along with myself, and it's the good category. Being sincere in your beliefs is far superior to being sincere in someone else's beliefs.

[Topaz]

How do you phone people do this? Posting on an iPod is tough.
Anyway I had another involved pony dream that started with the announcement that MLP was all part of a deal between Hasbro and Celestia to get humanity used to the idea of magical ponies before revealing the actual existence of Equestria to the world, and ended with Topaz attending a Bronycon with Lyra and Bon Bon. Good times.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I think anything I need to say about the art world is shown in the success for the Disumbrationist school of art.


On a different note for PMVs they actually tend to be of higher quality then their artistic progenitor AMVs in my experience. Which can probably be put at no further then Ponies simply not lending themselves to the simple of equation of "Rock Music + Shonen Action = EPIC SUPER VID!!!11!!" and I've come across thankfully no pony slide shows or stringing together of gifs pretending they are videos.

[Thanqol]

I think anything I need to say about the art world is shown in the success for the Disumbrationist school of art.

Poetry has a version of this too in the form of imaginary Australian, Urn Malley.

[Anarion]

Oh, I understand this part. Hence my comment that "I wish I was famous enough to get away with stuff like that".

There are pieces of modern art I find fascinating; tricks of sculpture, light and shape that show sublime inspiration on the artist's part, as well as the skills to realise it. That impresses me; that shows that he's had a full education and is capable of a broad range of subject matter, and is making a deliberate decision to subvert expectations. Hence the book I mentioned - how does one carve pages out of a book? What tools does one use? Where did he get the idea? What does the book look like if it's opened to a different page? There's both inspiration and technical skill there.

The '5 year old' school of art demonstrates, to me, neither of those things. It's reliance on brand name and social expectations; the arrogant certainty that I can do whatever I want and people will buy it because I'm famous. And that's what gets to me; the idea that one does not need to apply oneself and seek greatness, seek improvement and instead retail garbage. Like they've lost their inner editor and instead wallow in mediocrity. And then an echo room of posers forms around them, refusing to believe that the famous artist could do any wrong and they're just not 'deep' enough to get it, so they lavish praise on something that is plainly bad.

Huh, typing that out was the first time I realised where that antipathy came from. I've learned something about myself today.



Edit: Anarion!



It's a Zen Koan, from The Old Master: Inspirations For Awakening.

It's not meant as a dismissal of the act of studying, it's an explanation for why non-monks can demonstrate enlightened behaviour. Or why monkeys on typewriters can produce good works.



I'm hesitant when the gap between 'I intended to do that' and 'I totally intended to do that, you guys' seems more in the mind of the viewer than in the hand of the artist.



This, for example, demonstrates technical skill and hard work. To me, it counts as a thing worth watching. Most PMVs demonstrate some level of skill, too, so their creators don't really earn my ire. But the ones that demonstrate more skill and finesse allow their creators to better execute concepts, even if those concepts are minimalistic. I can tell that this is a good execution of a minimalistic concept. That earns a pass.

If the only enjoyment I got from watching it was what I brought to the party myself through interpretation I consider it poser art.



The madness camp is where I had filed you, along with myself, and it's the good category. Being sincere in your beliefs is far superior to being sincere in someone else's beliefs.

Yeah I think I actually agree with you, but have a slightly more expansive view of the definition of art. There are a lot of posers and there are people that luck into doing something cool without really having any skill behind it (in which case it's okay to acknowledge the one cool thing and then ignore the rest of their work). There are, however, certain people in the modern and post-modern movement who I think can make a legitimate claim to be making art consistently, and I identify that mostly by their ability to repeat their success, even to people that haven't heard of them.

I'll give a personal example of this. I visited the UC Berkeley art museum a couple years ago. It has a bunch of weird stuff, most of which is not very good, since it's a college museum and it's giving new artists and art students a chance to show off their work. But it does have a few permanent pieces. One of these, which I noticed from across a gallery room (I'd estimate I was ~30-40 feet away), struck me as especially interesting, even though it was basically paint thrown on canvas. It had a pattern and coloring that drew me to it as being better than most of the other works around it for reasons that I find difficult to articulate. When I got closer to it, I then noticed the artist was Jackson Pollock and had an "oh hey, that guy's famous" moment. The man literally threw paint on canvas, which any 5 year old could do. But he did so in a recognizable and consistent manner that proved extremely popular. I consider that skill, and his works are art in my opinion.

And I think that will do for me this evening. I'm supposed to be drafting a cross-examination right now.

[Thanqol]

Yeah I think I actually agree with you, but have a slightly more expansive view of the definition of art. There are a lot of posers and there are people that luck into doing something cool without really having any skill behind it (in which case it's okay to acknowledge the one cool thing and then ignore the rest of their work). There are, however, certain people in the modern and post-modern movement who I think can make a legitimate claim to be making art consistently, and I identify that mostly by their ability to repeat their success, even to people that haven't heard of them.

I'll give a personal example of this. I visited the UC Berkeley art museum a couple years ago. It has a bunch of weird stuff, most of which is not very good, since it's a college museum and it's giving new artists and art students a chance to show off their work. But it does have a few permanent pieces. One of these, which I noticed from across a gallery room (I'd estimate I was ~30-40 feet away), struck me as especially interesting, even though it was basically paint thrown on canvas. It had a pattern and coloring that drew me to it as being better than most of the other works around it for reasons that I find difficult to articulate. When I got closer to it, I then noticed the artist was Jackson Pollock and had an "oh hey, that guy's famous" moment. The man literally threw paint on canvas, which any 5 year old could do. But he did so in a recognizable and consistent manner that proved extremely popular. I consider that skill, and his works are art in my opinion.

And I think that will do for me this evening. I'm supposed to be drafting a cross-examination right now.

I have a very broad definition of art.

The act of throwing paint on paper does not inherently exclude what you're doing from being art. How could it? Infinite canvas, unlimited medium. My current desktop background is this.

The knowing how to throw paint on paper to produce the exact effect you want is the work of an artist.

[Tiki Snakes]

Rothko is a strange one. Incredibly limited art, really, but the trick to remember is that a lot of them were only ever intended to be viewed in a certain location and alongside several others.

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When viewed as intended, it's a whole new thing.

On balance, I prefer him to Duchamp at least. Marcel Duchamp depresses me, as he actually started out as a fairly interesting painter, dabbling with Cubism and so on. Then after the war, it's all downhill untill you hit the Readymades. If nothing else, the readymades are bad because really it's little more than plagerism. I'm all for appreciating Form via Function but you don't really get to claim something is yours merely because you tagged it.

For mildly on-topicness, have a random picture of Beatnik Rarity.

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Beatnik rarity and her whispy white mouth-tendrils.

[Capt. Ido Nos]

Okay okay FINE, I'll post my ATG entry gosh guys quit twisting my arm >:(

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[Tiki Snakes]

Adorable Baby Yoda-Spike? More likely than you think.

[the_druid_droid]

Ok, phone response time is go!

@SiuiS: So I figure what the hay, Faust will be there and your latest travelogue has me super jealous so I'm going to be crazy here and say that you can count me in for Operation Faust. Send me a PM and I can further coordinate with you.

@Gaelbert: First off, let me apologize for not emailing you. It was on my list
over the holidays but I don't want to make excuses so let me just say I'm sorry, your departure and return were on my mind and I'm very glad to see you back!

Second, I'm glad you liked/noticed my quantum mechanics via ponies! I don't think I can make a fan fic from it but I might do future installments if anypony is interested. Also, you're correct in supposing that my first point is at least partially related to successive approximations and that sort of thing.

Also, a lot of folks have weighed in on the art issue by now, but darned if I won't get in my two bits! Basically my opinion is that I wouldn't have a problem with an artist or composer who'd studied and pushed the limits of his or her technique for years if they then decided that their next piece would be something that was largely nonrepresentational and difficult to approach. Presumbly they have the ability to express their purpose by this point and they choose to do so in a way that may turn off or even offend some audiences. My problem is with those who would skip the work necessary to first become a master of their craft and simply produce such things because they were the easy road to fame and cash. Obviously intent is notoriously difficult to accurately gauge, but as a philosophical standard, well that's mine... No offense meant to those that might disagree.

Also also, I like the statistical analysis. Definitely a neat project whatever the conclusions.

Also x3 combo: I look forward to seeing you in the drawthread!

[Kindablue]

I wish I was famous enough to be that pretentious.

I have absolutely no respect for 'art' which does not demonstrate technical skill on behalf of the artist. If it's just a random collection of sounds or images then any critical appreciation thereof is just a bunch of pretentious guys standing around patting each other on the back for being clever enough to 'get' it.

I'm not fussed by the medium. I once saw a piece of modern art where the guy had cut a 3D house into the pages of an enormous book, and it was fantastic. I just have complete contempt for the guy who puts a red square on a blue background and calls it a day.

Ah, I'm one of those boring traditionalists who is quite sure that not everything can be music. There has to be skill evident, even in disharmony. I can listen to bizarre sounding things as long as it was bizarre for a deliberate reason.

Basically, for me to consider it good, as art or music, it has to be the successful execution of a concept. The concept doesn't matter so much.

4'33" was inspired by a series of paintings by Robert Rauschenberg which were literally just canvas painted with plain white house paint. The point of those was that the room they were put it, the lighting of the room, the shadows of the people and objects in the room were the paintings in the same way that the coughs of the audience, the traffic outside, the dull hum of the air conditioner are 4'33". All musicals are adaptions, as they say.

Cage viewed music as the outline of silence, not its replacement. His works were minimalist and nontechnical on purpose, because he thought that the more he added to the piece, the less it was. I don't like all of Cage's work. His sonatas for prepared piano are brilliant, while Water Walk I never "got." If a piece of music or art doesn't grab me, it isn't very good. I don't care if the concept is well executed or if the artist shows me how skilled they are. The only thing that matters is my feelings of the piece itself, and for whatever reason, that's never been a part of my analysis. I do think for a long time why it grabbed me, but I don't condemn the artist if they didn't have anything to do with it.

Francis Bacon (the other Francis Bacon) totally agrees with you by the way. I saw a documentary about him recently and the best part was his completely blunt dismissal of Rothko and Pollock as soulless artistic children. It was hilarious.

[Shadow of the Sun]

It's also worth noting that there can be significant artistry in what some people would consider to be easy.

Pollock is a good example. Even though his paintings look like a kid can do them, there is a lot of skill involved in it, as an actor who had to play Pollock in a film and attempted to do works in Pollock's style as a form of method acting.

Another good example is Derek Bailey. A lot of people would consider his music to be atonal noise and I will admit that it more or less is. And a lot of people could do similar things by flailing at a guitar; watch this for an example. That said, I think Derek Bailey is an AMAZING guitarist- his music sounds random and atonal because that's what he wants it to sound like, and I don't think there are many guitarists who could get what they hear in their head onto the instrument with as much skill as he does. As an example of this, listen to Joe Pass' rendition of Stella By Starlight and then Derek's rendition. Derek's still has his atonal style, but the melody of the piece is recognizable amid the noise. He's not playing like that because he's not talented, he's playing like that because that's what he hears.

[Kindablue]

Let's be fair, though. This crazy American bloke is offering you a room after a long trip. In all honesty, I'm surprised I've received the two affirmatives I have; this would be downright creepy I it were posted anywhere else, and if you all didn't have confirmation from other ponyfolks that I'm on the level.

You think that sounds creepy? You're planning on using cartoon ponies to entice people to get in a massive van, and then you're taking them across state borders.

Oh, amused. I thought that was an annoyed face. I was gonna say; it was youre idea, mate!

My idea. Right. That's annoyedface.

[Thanqol]

4'33" was inspired by a series of paintings by Robert Rauschenberg which were literally just canvas painted with plain white house paint. The point of those was that the room they were put it, the lighting of the room, the shadows of the people and objects in the room were the paintings in the same way that the coughs of the audience, the traffic outside, the dull hum of the air conditioner are 4'33". All musicals are adaptions, as they say.

Again, my point is that there is nothing there other than what the viewer brings to the table himself. You can read into it, as you can read into anything. The human mind can find patterns, consistencies and connections even in madness. By claiming credit for observer's ability to make judgements and interpretations, the artist has removed himself from the cycle. He has not inspired thought, he has waited for others to tell him what he made them think.

If a stranger told me to be quiet for four minutes while he did nothing I'd rightly think he was a tosser. A famous person doing the same thing isn't any less of a tosser; the toss is equidistant. If I found this song on my iTunes playlist with no other context I'd delete it as a corrupt file. The artist is dead, and I find his work displeasing.

Francis Bacon (the other Francis Bacon) totally agrees with you by the way. I saw a documentary about him recently and the best part was his completely blunt dismissal of Rothko and Pollock as soulless artistic children. It was hilarious.

Thanks, I'm looking forwards to this!

[Forum Explorer]

Speaking of Art...

I don't have a problem with any of the different styles that an artist may employ in their work. I may not enjoy all the styles but I don't believe there has to be an accepted way of making art. My real problem is the critics. They seem determined to reduce everything to certain styles or meanings and act as if their opinions are the most justified. Not every artist is trying to send some secret deeper meaning and just because they aren't doesn't make their work automatically inferior.

[Thanqol]

Speaking of Art...

I don't have a problem with any of the different styles that an artist may employ in their work. I may not enjoy all the styles but I don't believe there has to be an accepted way of making art. My real problem is the critics. They seem determined to reduce everything to certain styles or meanings and act as if their opinions are the most justified. Not every artist is trying to send some secret deeper meaning and just because they aren't doesn't make their work automatically inferior.

Ohhh-hhh, you haven't heard the half of it. I'm an English major. Every artist is seeking deeper meaning. Even made-up poets who's secret authors came out and admitted they were trolling poetry critics get treated with deathly seriousness about the deeper meaning that secretly inspired their actions. And there's no way to produce an 'inferior' work because everything has a secret meaning.