Are All Vulcans Lack Emotions?

[Lvl 2 Expert]

It's rare to actually find an Enterprise fan out in the wild, so I'm legitimately curious what it is that draws you to it.

1 It has more of a "Das Boot" feel to it. It's all just a little more uncomfortable and cramped and almost retro looking than most other series. Because this is not the Flagship Enterprise from the glowing bright future, this is an experimental ship from like sort of the past. When the engineering bay from Enterprise calls in panic saying that the ship will explode if you keep pushing her like that, it feels like they mean it. Well, in the well written episodes anyway. (Deep Space 9 tried a similar feel for its titular station as well, particularly in the early seasons, and Discovery has a similar look (in a way) to many of its sets.)

2 The early setting let them introduce some elements the lack of which always felt a little odd. Sometimes it's offhand jokes, like captain Archer suggesting they install seat belts on the bridge, or a scene where they show the point in the ship where the gravity flips around near the gravity generator (which oddly enough seemed to imply that most of the outer hull functions as "down", going against the popular image of a bridge near the top of the ship with the ceiling closer to the hull than the floor). But sometimes it's more than that. At some point the Enterprise has what's basically a compliment of marines aboard, people who's job it is to be on away teams and getting into danger and firefights. The Star Trek games had had similar teams before, but the TV shows always kept working with a mix of high ranking officers and what were seemingly complete nobodies. But it's a good idea. If you have armed away missions every other week, have an armed away mission team. It was handled pretty well too, the team leader kept butting heads with the security chief, and apparently many of the actors portraying the team were basically stunt people, which helped them do the scenes we wanted to see.

3 The effects were honestly kind of good, or at least came across as such at the time, and it let them show stuff like non-humanoid species a bit more than previous series, like the aquatic Xindi. They weren't always done in the most believable or interesting way, but they could now be done. (Although fair is fair, the non-humanoid alien TOS did that was basically a person crawling around under a blanket was a very cool concept.)

4 It came out around a time when I wanted to like Star Trek. (Also, the Vulcan ships looked pretty cool, and the Klingon Raptor scout ship that featured in a single episode is still one of my favorite designs.)

[Peelee]

1 It has more of a "Das Boot" feel to it. It's all just a little more uncomfortable and cramped and almost retro looking than most other series. Because this is not the Flagship Enterprise from the glowing bright future, this is an experimental ship from like sort of the past. When the engineering bay from Enterprise calls in panic saying that the ship will explode if you keep pushing her like that, it feels like they mean it. Well, in the well written episodes anyway. (Deep Space 9 tried a similar feel for its titular station as well, particularly in the early seasons, and Discovery has a similar look (in a way) to many of its sets.)

Indeed. The uniform design and set design do a great job of making it seem like a much more utilitarian ship than all the other series had.

[KillianHawkeye]

My favorite part of Enterprise is how their uniforms have SO MANY POCKETS!

[JadedDM]

I like all Star Treks, even Enterprise and Voyager. Yeah, they have some stinker episodes, but which series doesn't? The only Star Trek franchise I could never get into was the Abrams movies. I watched the first one, didn't care for it for the most part. I tried watching the second, but couldn't get past the whole 'cold fusion bomb freezes things' before walking out. I never bothered at all with the third one.

But in terms of television series, I like every Star Trek from TOS to DIS. Sure, some I favor more than others. But I can't say I dislike any of them.

And I consider myself a fan of Enterprise, too. It certainly has its flaws. But I liked a lot about it. I liked that it had Andorians and Tellarites, which have scarcely appeared in the entire franchise since TOS. (I especially like Shran, but I am a big fan of Jeffrey Combs in general.) Really, I think that was Enterprise's biggest folly, in that it wasted way too much time on the Temporal Cold War stuff instead of the actual premise of the show (Earth just starting deep space exploration, and eventually building up the Federation). Heck, I even like the opening theme. Sure it's not like any other series, but it sure is catchy and always made me feel hopeful.

[Reddish Mage]

It’s nice what Enterprise was trying to do but I feel the ship is too advanced for a first time out and too much of the familiar showed up that didn’t need to be there. Why did they feel the need to have a teleporter in Episode 1 (and Klingons)? Within the space of a few episodes we get tractor beams and I forget what else but the ship is way too close to what we have in every other series.

There could have been a point made about the limitations they had in medicine (nope just as miraculous as ever) engineering (they go everywhere instantly), communication, computers...it might as well has taken place a century or two later for the most part.

The entire point of Enterprise was that it was the initial voyages into the unknown, before they had any hard and fast protocols.

I'd be hard-pressed to call T'Pol racist; she (and the other Vulcans) had a belief of smug superiority, and in T'Pol that was reduced as the series progressed. If you want to complain about openly racist characters, McCoy was constantly racist towards Spock in TOS, needling him nearly every episode and quite often calling him a goblin or pointing out his green blood, pointy ears, or other visual or anatomical differences.

I think you have it the wrong way around. McCoy is simply complaining and making aesthetic judgments. He doesn’t truly consider humans to be superior to Vulcans in a significant way. He says and does things in bad taste, he harasses Spock, he is even a cultural chauvinist, but I could see reserving the term “racist” for those with deeper beliefs.

T’Pol fits the bill. She truly feels that Vulcans are superior to humans. Intellectually, culturally, you name it. A Vulcan is better automatically. Her belief is pervasive and influences all her interactions with humans. The fact that she doesn’t engage uncouth insults or name-calling doesn’t change any of that.

That’s what a racist is, that is the attitude that shapes Vulcan / Human differences at the time. Earth is basically colonized by the Vulcans, with them bringing “Vulcan-Only” technology judged too advanced for humans. Vulcans even use an old racist excuse about humans not being “culturally advanced enough” (after decades of sharing, so much that the crew has only known living under Vulcan influence) to be treated as equals.

T’Pol is being coded as racist so hard it cannot but be purposeful on the part of the writers, who would know all about this from their English classes.

[Peelee]

So when McCoy puts down Vulcans, it's just "cultural chauvinism," but when T'Pol puts down humans, it's blatant racism.

If you want "cultural chauvinism" to be a thing, then you should be applying that to Vulcans too.

[The Glyphstone]

Did McCoy ever blast other Vulcans, or did he just pick on Spock specifically from personal dislike? I'm not sure how many of them appeared in TOS besides Spok and Sarek.

[Cikomyr]

Did McCoy ever blast other Vulcans, or did he just pick on Spock specifically from personal dislike? I'm not sure how many of them appeared in TOS besides Spok and Sarek.

It's okay to treat a black person a *scrubbed* just because "he's the only one I call that way"?

[Rynjin]

So when McCoy puts down Vulcans, it's just "cultural chauvinism," but when T'Pol puts down humans, it's blatant racism.

If you want "cultural chauvinism" to be a thing, then you should be applying that to Vulcans too.

It's all about intent and delivery.

McCoy comes off as a ballbuster and if racist, only in the sense of someone crotchety and set in their ways more than any actual malice. When the chips are down, he has no thoughts about humans being racially (maybe culturally) superior to Vulcans, he just projects his dislike of Spock specifically onto a broad racial palette.

T'Pol is disturbingly anti-human/pro-Vulcan, especially very early on. There is a very intentional air of arrogance and holier-than-thou thinking in her demeanor. She truly believes that Vulcans are better; physically, mentally, culturally, and technologically superior in every conceivable way to not just humans, but every other race in the galaxy.

McCoy is basically your old grandparent that just doesn't know any better, while T'Pol is one step away from joining whatever the Vulcan equivalent of the Klan is (which I believe she even DOES in one episode, doesn't she?).

[The Glyphstone]

It's okay to treat a black person a *scrub the post, scrub the quote* just because "he's the only one I call that way"?

Not the point.

If McCoy is a jerk to Spock, but respectful to, say, Sarek, it's not "Vulcans" he hates, it's Spock. It doesn't make what he says okay, but it would imply he's not a racist the way T'Pol is being said to be.

[Cikomyr]

Not the point.

If McCoy is a jerk to Spock, but respectful to, say, Sarek, it's not "Vulcans" he hates, it's Spock. It doesn't make what he says okay, but it would imply he's not a racist the way T'Pol is being said to be.

But using racist slurs and insults is.. Still.. Racist.

No?

[The Glyphstone]

But using racist slurs and insults is.. Still.. Racist.

No?

Well, yes, it is. But we were questioning if McCoy hates all Vulcans the way T'Pol hates all non-Vulcans, weren't we?

[Bartmanhomer]

I think we're getting off-topic between racism. Can we get back on emotionless Vulcans please but I guess we cover that already.

[Cikomyr]

Well, yes, it is. But we were questioning if McCoy hates all Vulcans the way T'Pol hates all non-Vulcans, weren't we?

I think there's also a certain element of sexism in the assessment of T'Pol's faults. The fact that a female character is being critical and/or arrogant of other characters is usually perceived worst than when a male character does it.

[Peelee]

It's all about intent and delivery.

McCoy comes off as a ballbuster and if racist, only in the sense of someone crotchety and set in their ways more than any actual malice. When the chips are down, he has no thoughts about humans being racially (maybe culturally) superior to Vulcans, he just projects his dislike of Spock specifically onto a broad racial palette.

T'Pol is disturbingly anti-human/pro-Vulcan, especially very early on. There is a very intentional air of arrogance and holier-than-thou thinking in her demeanor. She truly believes that Vulcans are better; physically, mentally, culturally, and technologically superior in every conceivable way to not just humans, but every other race in the galaxy.

McCoy is basically your old grandparent that just doesn't know any better, while T'Pol is one step away from joining whatever the Vulcan equivalent of the Klan is (which I believe she even DOES in one episode, doesn't she?).

In one of the first episodes, Captain Archer is indisposed and T'Pol is in command of the Enterprise. Everyone expects her to order a return to Earth, as only Vulcans oppose the mission and only humans approve of it. T'Pol does not and respects Archers wishes, issuing orders she believed he would issue.

Yeah, that's some contempt right there. She had every right to do what everyone expected, but didn't out of respect for the captain. Who I should add, was just as hostile to her as she was to him.

Both humans and Vulcans have a contestuous relationship in ENT, especially in the beginning. That's not racism, thats culture clash. Vulcans are much more timid, as far as exploration goes (which we see copious examples of again in early episodes where Archer and T'Pol are much more adversarial). They believe their way is right. Humans, interestingly enough, also believe their way is right. This isn't a problem, this is an expected occurrence of two different cultures clashing with each other over matters they both believe to be of great import.

Also, i suspect I have significantly greater disdain for the grandfather who just doesn't know any better than you do.

Well, yes, it is. But we were questioning if McCoy hates all Vulcans the way T'Pol hates all non-Vulcans, weren't we?

That sounds like an excellent excuse to rewatch TOS! I'm fairly sure that McCoy mentions "you Vulcans" in place of Spock specifically several times, but I love TOS so I'm going to grab that excuse and hop on Netflix.

[The Glyphstone]

I think there's also a certain element of sexism in the assessment of T'Pol's faults. The fact that a female character is being critical and/or arrogant of other characters is usually perceived worst than when a male character does it.

Quite possible. I haven't seen ENT so I'm running secondhand, here. T'Pol was supposed to be the fanservice eye candy, so the sexism is already baked into her character from the start.

That sounds like an excellent excuse to rewatch TOS! I'm fairly sure that McCoy mentions "you Vulcans" in 0lave of spock specifically several times, but I love TOS so I'm going to grab that excuse and hop on Netflix.

An excellent plan, I approve.

[Cikomyr]

Quite possible. I haven't seen ENT so I'm running secondhand, here. T'Pol was supposed to be the fanservice eye candy, so the sexism is already baked into her character from the start.

A little bit. Let's just say people are more forgiving of a man "ball buster" than a woman one.

To be honest, most man writer have a hard time writing properly that sort of women character. Everyone remembers Pulaski?

[Peelee]

A little bit. Let's just say people are more forgiving of a man "ball buster" than a woman one.

To be honest, most man writer have a hard time writing properly that sort of women character. Everyone remembers Pulaski?

You ever see the subreddit MenWritingWomen?

[Rynjin]

In one of the first episodes, Captain Archer is indisposed and T'Pol is in command of the Enterprise. Everyone expects her to order a return to Earth, as only Vulcans oppose the mission and only humans approve of it. T'Pol does not and respects Archers wishes, issuing orders she believed he would issue.

Yeah, that's some contempt right there. She had every right to do what everyone expected, but didn't out of respect for the captain. Who I should add, was just as hostile to her as she was to him.

That sounds like doing her job to me; just because someone is temporarily in command does not mean they should set about doing things in opposition to the person who is usually in command. That just causes confusion and tension in the chain of command/split loyalties.

Also I never said Archer was a saint either, he's probably the worst (recurring) character in Star Trek history.

Also, i suspect I have significantly greater disdain for the grandfather who just doesn't know any better than you do.

Perhaps. I'm a believer in judging things base don the values of the time they were made. McCoy's attitude was not really contentious in the 60's, and the show was quite progressive at the time, even if by today's standards its attitude toward women (especially) and minorities is...dated, to say the least.

Meanwhile Enterprise came out in 2001, and especially comes off as disturbing given the US political climate at the time, which we unfortunately can't discuss any further than that.

[Peelee]

That sounds like doing her job to me; just because someone is temporarily in command does not mean they should set about doing things in opposition to the person who is usually in command.

Which is why I pointed out that as acting captain she absolutely did have the right to countermand what everyone knew his orders would be under the guise of "that is wrong and this is right." If the captain of the Titanic is knocked out and the first mate says "OK lets slow the ship down some," then that's the new orders. Archer fully believed she would do this, and Archer also fully believed the crew would obey her orders. Archer knew exactly what the job entailed and that she could do this, and would be likely to (T'Pol believed that it would be dangerous to continue). Her job, at that point, is to give whatever orders she thinks is in the best interest of the ship. And instead, she deferred to Archer's wishes, which nobody on the crew expected.

That's one confused form of racism.

[Themrys]

Which is why I pointed out that as acting captain she absolutely did have the right to countermand what everyone knew his orders would be under the guise of "that is wrong and this is right." If the captain of the Titanic is knocked out and the first mate says "OK lets slow the ship down some," then that's the new orders. Archer fully believed she would do this, and Archer also fully believed the crew would obey her orders. Archer knew exactly what the job entailed and that she could do this, and would be likely to (T'Pol believed that it would be dangerous to continue). Her job, at that point, is to give whatever orders she thinks is in the best interest of the ship. And instead, she deferred to Archer's wishes, which nobody on the crew expected.

Thays one confused form of racism.

So she respected his wishes despite allegedly being a racist against him and deeming him a lesser life form?

Yeah, that is indeed confusing.

I like to judge people by their actions. Those are often less confusing than their words.

[Rynjin]

Which is why I pointed out that as acting captain she absolutely did have the right to countermand what everyone knew his orders would be under the guise of "that is wrong and this is right." If the captain of the Titanic is knocked out and the first mate says "OK lets slow the ship down some," then that's the new orders.

Meanwhile I believe people would look askance, at the least, if the order was instead "let's chart a course for the Bahamas now" and completely turned the ship around, and there would be hell to pay on getting back to land for making decisions beyond the scope of their authority.

Simply because people expected her to make an illogical, potentially career damaging call does not mean they were right.

[Peelee]

Meanwhile I believe people would look askance, at the least, if the order was instead "let's chart a course for the Bahamas now" and completely turned the ship around, and there would be hell to pay on getting back to land for making decisions beyond the scope of their authority.

Simply because people expected her to make an illogical, potentially career damaging call does not mean they were right.

The captain and chief engineer both expected her to make the call, and for the crew to follow it. She was very vocal about continuing being a bad idea due to the dangers involved. We are given zero reason to believe that it would be an illogical move or a career-damaging move (and, as she was not part of Starfleet, I would argue that ordering to continue was more career-damaging in any event).

Frankly, I don't know how the show could have made it any more clear that she could have totally done that with zero repurcussions.

[druid91]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhVhhBTrmhY

Vulcans not being logical all the time has been a thing even back in the old trek.

[Reddish Mage]

I was going to say maybe I went too far in saying McCoy is not like T’Pol but I see the cart has run away from me already.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhVhhBTrmhY

Vulcans not being logical all the time has been a thing even back in the old trek.

Yes, my question is how many ways can we find this and do we see groups that embrace emotion (Romulans don’t count).

[JadedDM]

IYes, my question is how many ways can we find this and do we see groups that embrace emotion (Romulans don’t count).

There were the V'tosh ka'tur (literally 'Vulcans without logic') introduced in Enterprise's first season.

[Kitten Champion]

I don't find McCoy comparable to T'Pol because the context of the two are dramatically different.

McCoy fits into a trinity of temperaments that diametrically opposes Spock's, with both characters reflecting elements of Kirk. He's passionate, empathetic, and pushes Kirk to go with his conscience. He also characterizes the viewpoint closest to that of the 60's audience, with a slightly more antiquated view of the world -- which goes into his dislike of things like Transporters. While he has a curmudgeonly approach to Spock and recoils when he feels Spock's logic is in contradiction to humanistic view of the world, there's plenty of occasions when he expresses admiration for him. McCoy works as a character because of basic writing theory essentially, particularly as TOS is very focused on characters ethical arguments.

T'Pol is the second-biggest victim - the first obviously being Archer who is definitely a racist - of a ham-fisted seasons-long attempt by the show-runners to inject a forced, stupid conflict between the Humans and the Vulcans which often made the Vulcans the punching bag so the Humans looked better in contrast. She definitely comes across as the writers wanted her to - arrogant, imperious, and dismissive of humanity with all their stinking emotions - and it was intended to make her fairly unlikable until her arc of accepting Archer as this great leader and trailblazer the writers evidently seemed to believe he was. However, it wasn't just her attitudes here in question, as I said, Archer is a racist tool who uses his authority in the situation to make his stupid arguments and have his human crew-mates back him up in various subtle and not-so-subtle hostility aimed at her and any Vulcan in the general proximity.

McCoy said slurs, sure, but he was Spock's peer and colleague at the end of the day. Enterprise was a cul-de-sac of characters actively making decisions based off of racist beliefs that never goes away, even in the goddamned finale.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

My favorite part of Enterprise is how their uniforms have SO MANY POCKETS!

Exactly, good example! That's the writers acknowledging a silly part of the Trek Universe, everyone wears skintight stretch fabric with no pockets, and then saying "but what if we just gave them pockets, and maybe overall slightly more "normal"/21th century clothing? It's very practical."



EDIT: I do also agree a bit with this though:

It’s nice what Enterprise was trying to do but I feel the ship is too advanced for a first time out and too much of the familiar showed up that didn’t need to be there. Why did they feel the need to have a teleporter in Episode 1 (and Klingons)? Within the space of a few episodes we get tractor beams and I forget what else but the ship is way too close to what we have in every other series.

There could have been a point made about the limitations they had in medicine (nope just as miraculous as ever) engineering (they go everywhere instantly), communication, computers...it might as well has taken place a century or two later for the most part.

Some of the most interesting technologies in ENT were "preplacements" of future Star Trek tech, like how they had some sort of grappling claws on cables instead of a tractor beam. That's kind of cool. But they were in such a big hurry to tell the story of how Star Trek became Star Trek that most of that stuff was featured maybe twice and the second time is the episode in which they receive the familiar technology as an upgrade. A bit like how in Smallville the first season was about all the Superman powers appearing in quick succession, because this show is about Superman. You're making a prequel because you thought of interesting things to do with a less developed setting, take your time and use that a bit more.

[Manga Shoggoth]

What people forget about the Spock/McCoy(/Kirk) dynamic is that the three are actually close friends, with Spock and McCoy having a slightly adversarial relationship due to their differing viewpoints. This friendship is shown best in Amok Time, where Spock invites both of them to a ceremony that is deeply private and somewhat embarassing for a supposedly non-emotional vulcan. The very last place Spock would want McCoy if he wasn't a close friend.

Yes, they bicker and fight. But they also have each other's backs.

[Peelee]

What people forget about the Spock/McCoy(/Kirk) dynamic is that the three are actually close friends, with Spock and McCoy having a slightly adversarial relationship due to their differing viewpoints. This friendship is shown best in Amok Time, where Spock invites both of them to a ceremony that is deeply private and somewhat embarassing for a supposedly non-emotional vulcan. The very last place Spock would want McCoy if he wasn't a close friend.

I don't think anybody would ever accuse Star Trek of having consistent writing.

ETA: I'm very amused by I, Mudd. Ol' Harry believes that knowledge should be freely disseminated and the death penalty is barbaric, two things the Federation wholly agrees with by TNG. Shame he had to deal with Kirk and not Picard.

Ignoring that Mudd only believed in those things so far as they happened to be in his best interest at the time, of course, but I still found it amusing. Also,

Spoiler: Discovery spoilers

Show

Rainn Wilson did an absolutely delightful Harcourt Fenton Mudd, I can't imagine anyone who could have done it better. Dude just knocked it out of the park. If all the TOS characters recast in recent years, that was far and away the best. I'm sure it doesn't hurt that the character is fun as hell, but still, Dwight was the perfect fit.