Warhammer 40K Tactics IV - The Enemy of Your Enemy is Still Your Enemy.

[onasuma]

last time we played (i won) his army (700 points) was

1 squad dire avengers
1 squad banshees
avatar
1 squad firedragons in waveserpent
fireprism

I do believe that thats an illegal army (unless firedragons have become troops recently). He'll have to have a second squad of troops, and therefore lose one of those annoying things.

[Kzickas]

I do believe that thats an illegal army (unless firedragons have become troops recently). He'll have to have a second squad of troops, and therefore lose one of those annoying things.

it got houseruled to only needing 1 hq and 1 troop since otherwise there would be almost no points for anything else when playing with so few points

[Tren]

Yeah, Onasuma is right, I can't believe I missed that earlier. Unless he's got another units of Avengers or maybe Guardians in there he's only got one troop choice.

Edit: Apparently I'm too slow

[Erloas]

it got houseruled to only needing 1 hq and 1 troop since otherwise there would be almost no points for anything else when playing with so few points

I could see that at 500 points, but not really anything above that. I don't think it is needed seeing as he took a kind of expensive HQ, 2 elites and a HS choice. I would only change the minimum 2 troop choice if you also limited HS/elite/FA to 1 choice each.

[Wraith]

My opponent always takes at least one close combat squad, usually either banshees or wraithguards + elrad ultrhan using fortune every turn, those buggers are tough in melee, especially without powerweapons.

Wraithguard? And a Special Character? In a 700 point game?

He must only have had about 4 or 5 of them then, and even then that's... what, 300 points or so, just off the top of my head. On 6 models, no less.

No wonder you won. 700 points of Space Marines vs. 25 models of Eldar is no contest Still, I stand by my previous comment. Get into melee with the Dire Avengers and the Fire Dragons, Sniper-Scouts can take down the Avatar with little fuss, and a pair Razorback with some Lascannon/Twin-Linked Plasma Guns will sort out everything else:

I personally would use something like:

HQ: Chaplain (because I like Chaplains, though a Master of the Forge might also be useful if you get the Second Turn and need to fix a Tank)
Troop: 8x Marines + Razorback Transport w/Lascannon & Twin-Linked Plasma Guns
Troop: 8x Marines + Razorback Transport w/Lascannon & Twin-Linked Plasma Guns
Troop: 5x Scouts w/Sniper Rifles

Cost: About 690 points, adding a few extra close combat weapons or missile launchers for taste. Shoot the big stuff, stab the little stuff, and try not to have too much fun

[Cheesegear]

Given all the interesting things Cheesegear is learning about the rules (I think Acts of Faith was the last one) I don't think we can trust how his group plays too much

...Hey...I was told you (royal you {everyone}) could re-roll with a Bosspole as many times as you wanted so long as you were willing to potentially kill models, because the 'each time' wording in the Codex includes re-rolls. GW Staff told me you could do this.

Still, all the interesting things?
There's not that many...

Things I've learned from 40Kitp;

1. You can't choose to auto-fail a Morale check. Apparently only Space Marines can do that. Given the fact that I play Space Marines, and most of my opponents play Space Marines, and the fact that who wants to fail a Morale check (even with the Space Marines rule...I've rarely done it)? I didn't know any better. It was a rule I brought over from WHFB.

2. Fast vehicles only move 18". Fast, Skimmers move 24". This is due to the fact that my opponent has been cheating this entire time moving his Fast, non-Skimming vehicle 24". I've since corrected this.

3. That one Act of Faith (that I can't remember) can't improve on Initiative 1. Again, I don't use it all that much (mostly because I rarely get my Sisters within 18" of anything that isn't a vehicle) and it turns out my opponent has been cheating, although apparently he just didn't know. Anyway, this too, is corrected.

Also you can never re-roll a single dice. A single die yes, but not a single dice.

...Like you said Zorg; That particular grammar-issue doesn't apply to Australians.

[One Step Two]

Things I've learned from 40Kitp;

Don't forget, you can also use hit-and-run at the end of your opponents assault phase.

[Lycan 01]

Hm. My Space Marine buddy ordered the Dark Angels chapter upgrade. We'd both seen pics of it, and it was supposed to come with a bunch of weapons with Dark Angels motiffs, icons and bits, and a handfull of legs, torso, and heads to be mixed into a normal Tactical Squad kit. Keep in mind, this is what we were led to believe the kit came with - just upgrade bits.


I dunno how or why, but when the kit arrived in the mail this morning, he discovered that it came with twice the stuff it was supposed to, and even then there were pieces he hadn't noticed. In short, instead of getting a handfull of bits, he got a FULL DARK ANGELS TACTICAL SQUAD.


So my friend's Space Marines went from 10 to 20 last week, and then up to 30 this morning. So it looks like I should start working on a 1000 Point list now...


By the way, I'm turning the 10 Boyz I got the other day into Shootas, and once their done, I'll go back and get another 10 Boyz and make them into Shootas, too.

I think that once I get the money, though, I'll go and get a third Boyz kit. These 10 Boyz will be special, though. I think I'll take 5 of them and use the Rokkit Launchas, Melta Bombs, and Stikk Bomb pieces from the 3 Boyz kits and make the beginnings of a Tank Bustas squad. The other 5 and the Nob I'll making into Kommandos by painting them black, giving 'em all knives and swords (since chainswords are noisy), and green stuffing bandanas and gun silencers onto them.

What do you guys think?

[tyckspoon]

1. You can't choose to auto-fail a Morale check. Apparently only Space Marines can do that. Given the fact that I play Space Marines, and most of my opponents play Space Marines, and the fact that who wants to fail a Morale check (even with the Space Marines rule...I've rarely done it)? I didn't know any better. It was a rule I brought over from WHFB.

It's mostly used as a way of disengaging from an assault that you don't want to be bogged down in, such as when an enemy assault team gets to grips with you and you'd really rather be shooting them. At least, it was- I actually don't remember how the current Run Away!! rules work, so it may be a much worse idea in the current book.

[Shas aia Toriia]

Hm. My Space Marine buddy ordered the Dark Angels chapter upgrade. We'd both seen pics of it, and it was supposed to come with a bunch of weapons with Dark Angels motiffs, icons and bits, and a handfull of legs, torso, and heads to be mixed into a normal Tactical Squad kit. Keep in mind, this is what we were led to believe the kit came with - just upgrade bits.

I dunno how or why, but when the kit arrived in the mail this morning, he discovered that it came with twice the stuff it was supposed to, and even then there were pieces he hadn't noticed. In short, instead of getting a handfull of bits, he got a FULL DARK ANGELS TACTICAL SQUAD.

Wow! Lucky him.

[One Step Two]

It's mostly used as a way of disengaging from an assault that you don't want to be bogged down in, such as when an enemy assault team gets to grips with you and you'd really rather be shooting them. At least, it was- I actually don't remember how the current Run Away!! rules work, so it may be a much worse idea in the current book.

Yeah, thats more or less it, you lose combat and you elect to fail the morale check at the end rather than bothering to roll, aslong as you can beat the initiative check you can break off of combat so you can shoot them next turn. The reason why it's still very decent, is that if you lose the iniative check, the unit becomes fearless and so on as per the normal rules for losing combat. It's a very valuable technique for taking care of howling banshees if your unit managed to survive their assault since you can attempt to disenage so you can throw massed bolter fire into them on your turn.

[Lycan 01]

I know! Don't get me wrong, I think its awesome! I'm just terrified of his sudden army expansion...

He told me via text, so I thought I was just misreading or misunderstanding him. He said the kit came with more pieces than he expected, and he had enough for a full dark angels tactical squad. I though he meant he had enough to convert his new regular tactical squad into dark angels. So I kept asking him what he meant, since I wasn't sure if I understood correctly.

He then proceeds to text me a list of everything the kit came with - 10 torsos, 10 backs, 10 legs, lots of arms, 14 heads, 10 backpacks, tons of weapons, tons of icons and other bits... All in what was supposed to be just a simple conversion kit.

Funny thing is, it was cheaper than the regular SM tactical squad.

[Arcanoi]

Okay. Tankbustas are good at what they do. Very good. They kill tanks dead faster than almost any other thing besides a Hierodule, Wraithlord, or a few other assort MCs. But what they are NOT good at, and this makes them difficult to use at times, is SURVIVING. With Glory Hogs, you'll often find them getting shot to pieces.... on round two. Constantly.

Against Space Marines, I would MUCH more recommend a squad of Burna Boyz, because Burna Boyz, who can use their burnas either as flamers or POWER WEAPONS, are awesome, especially when you're negating that 3+ save.

[Lycan 01]

Hm. Sooo... If that's the case, what if I converted 5 Boyz + the Nob into Kommandos (with a Big Shoota and Rokkit Launcha), and then rigged the other 5 Boyz into Burnas and Meks? For the Burnas, I could just combine some Shootas with some Imp Guard Flamers & Flamer Tanks, and for Meks I'd give 'em two Rockit Launchas and a (literally) Kustom Mega Blaster...

Or, what if I converted the other 5 Boyz into another Kommandos squad with two rokkit launchas?


Yeah, my friend texted me earlier. His army is 1015 Points now.

*starts working on a 1K Ork list, and also realizes it may be a good idea to finish those Killa Kans*

[Cristo Meyers]

Wow! Lucky him.

Actually, I think that's actually the way it is sold, because the exact same thing happened to me when I ordered it to use as my Chaos Champions and such. I was expecting the three I was going to need (Winged Lord, Raptor Champion, Aspiring Champion), and ended up with an extra 7.

[crazedloon]

Hm. Sooo... If that's the case, what if I converted 5 Boyz + the Nob into Kommandos (with a Big Shoota and Rokkit Launcha), and then rigged the other 5 Boyz into Burnas and Meks? For the Burnas, I could just combine some Shootas with some Imp Guard Flamers & Flamer Tanks, and for Meks I'd give 'em two Rockit Launchas and a (literally) Kustom Mega Blaster...

Or, what if I converted the other 5 Boyz into another Kommandos squad with two rokkit launchas?


Yeah, my friend texted me earlier. His army is 1015 Points now.

*starts working on a 1K Ork list, and also realizes it may be a good idea to finish those Killa Kans*

Kans would be an awesome addition to your army at that point cost, particularly if your opponent is mainly a troop based army where your kans can use terrain to stay out of the less mobil heavy weapons on troops.

I would also suggest the kommando route and invest in a boss snikrot and the big shootas or burna route. This makes a unit that will get your opponent worrying all battle and will more often than not make him place his units 12 inches from the edge of the table afraid of assault. When they do come in they are a very hard hitting unit.

As for the boss pole discussion I have always had the rule simplified by the red/black shirts in my local store as no re-rolling a reroll (And the wording of the base rule supports that). Therefore your pole can not let you reroll a missed reroll

[Erloas]

There are 1-2 exceptions that I know of but can't quite place in the no-rerolling a reroll and they explicitly state that they are an exception to the rule. They are in fantasy though, but since the rule is from GW and a rule both systems use the same way, I would think that would apply to 40k as well. I also know they lay out in some of the FAQs what happens when two opposing forced/granted rerolls apply to the same original roll.

I'll have to see if I can find those exceptions when I get home.

[evisiron]

Haha, just got a great email from a friend about a post he found on another forum, though I would share the gut of it with you:


Firstly some context.

The original post was about Eldar psychic powers and whether they could be used in the movement phase. The majority answer was 'no they can't because you have to use them at the start of your turn'. A particularly odius rules lawyer then popped up and tried to argue that because GW didn't define the start of the turn, this meant that you could use the powers at any point during the movement phase as it was the first phase of the turn and therefore the start of the turn. Despite many people pointing out that this clearly wasn't the case he persisted.

Then a guy came up with this absolute corker:

Avatar, you seem like a pretty smart person and all, since you obviously have a strong command of the english language and whatnot, and are seemingly an expert lawyer in regards to deciphering the rules in a hobby book printed in the UK involving giant men in space suits fighting orks that ride on meteors.

That being said, a few situations came up that I was hoping you had the answer to.

1) What side of the dice do we use when we roll dice? My opponent was very upset when I told him I rolled 20 sixes, but I pointed out that the rulebook doesn't say that we have to use the "top" of the dice. The word "top" is very relative anyway. I think he was just being a poor sport.

2) We don't have to glue models on their feet, do we? The rulebook only says they have to be glued on their base. So I can glue all my models on their heads and pull off a FoF right? The guy I was playing said I couldn't but I pointed out the rules don't say specifically.

3) What are the models "eyes"? I used the eyes on the skull on top of my Sergeants flagpole to shoot over a wall. My opponent said I was an idiot, but the rules don't say that you have to use the eye's on the models head.

4) I was losing a match against a guy, so I just decided to stay in my movement phase until he conceded the match. He said I was being a douche bag but I told him that the rulebook doesn't put a time limit on any of your phases, and since I never ended my movement phase I didn't have to end my turn. I ended up getting kicked out of the Game store, even though I argued with the store owner for like 30 minutes. It doesn't matter because I'm not going back there again anyway.

5) A walker can shoot backwards if its immobilized, right? GW posted a FAQ that said "if a weapon looks like it can point a certain way, then it can." Well, my walker looks like he can rotate on his waist, so its obvious I can "turn" him to shoot a guy behind him.

6) I played Apocolypse match and used a Vortex missile on my opponents dice that he left on the table. Then I said he couldn't shoot me because he didn't have any dice to roll, but then he said I was being stupid and that I can't destroy his dice because they're not part of the game. But the rules clearly say that the Vortex missile "destroys everything under the template." He stopped playing me because he was being a poor sport.

7) I used a Plasma Cannon and said I hit my opponents entire army. He asked how and I told him that I could see all of his guys under the template. Then he said I was holding it right up to my eye, but the rules don't say how high off the table the template has to be when you place it.

8 ) I play Dark Eldar sometimes, and the Codex says I can get up to 2 Dark Lances for only 10 pts in a warrior squad. Everyone keeps saying that I have to pay 10 pts "each" but the way its worded in the Codex doesn't mean that at all.

9) I made a Dreadnought model so that the Melta Melta was sticking 2' forward off his front. On my turn I shot his Leman Russ tank and killed it because it was within 12" of my gun. My opponent said I was cheating but I said the rules clearly state that the range of a walkers weapon is measured from the end of its barrel to the hull of the enemy target. He said he was just going to shoot at my walker with all his guys but I said he can't because the barrel of a vehicles gun doesnt count towards LoS.

10) My opponent was going to shoot all his Firewarriors at my guys, so I took all my guys off the table really quick and put them back down further away before he could measure his range. He told me I wasn't allowed to move my guys during his turn, but then I told him I wasn't "moving" them I was taking them off the table and putting them back down. He got really mad and said I wasn't following the rules of the game, but then I told him to find in the rules where it defines "moving" and show me how I had done that.

I guess since there is no such thing as an "obvious" answer, because "obviousness" is all measured from the perspective of the person trying to decipher it, I should try and fetch your expert opinion. Although I'm pretty sure I'm right in most of these.

[Psychotic]

Load of Silly

I don't know whether to laugh or to vomit.

[tribble]

Haha, just got a great email from a friend about a post he found on another forum, though I would share the gut of it with you:




2) We don't have to glue models on their feet, do we? The rulebook only says they have to be glued on their base. So I can glue all my models on their heads and pull off a FoF right? The guy I was playing said I couldn't but I pointed out the rules don't say specifically.

5) A walker can shoot backwards if its immobilized, right? GW posted a FAQ that said "if a weapon looks like it can point a certain way, then it can." Well, my walker looks like he can rotate on his waist, so its obvious I can "turn" him to shoot a guy behind him.

2) what is FoF?
5) if you can convert a GW model to do such a thing, you deserve it. but you HAVE TO DO THE CONVERSION.

[Dark Faun]

I'm guessing FoF stands for Fleet of Foot.

[DaedalusMkV]

FoF=Fish of Fury, a Tau tactic that involves running a group of Fire Warriors in a Devilfish close to the enemy, disembarking on the opposite side of the transport from the enemy and rapidfiring them, then laughing when they realize that they can't assault you because your transport blocks assault but not LOS. Works less well in 5th due to Skimmers no longer never blocking LOS.

Now you know...

Sad to say, I've encountered people trying to do many of the things on that list, either in person or online. Munchkins and idiots, universally. Usually both.

*grumbles about "Orks in a river"*

[Dark Faun]

It's possible, but considering the very... imaginative writer of these questions is raving about feet, I'd say my theory is as possible. Of course, nothing is less sure considering this person's... creative interpretation of the rules.

[DaedalusMkV]

Why would glueing the models on upside down affect Fleet of Foot? Not even the most creative rules-lawyer could make that connection. OTOH, doing so would remove any and all problems with the Fish of Fury technique. I think it's pretty obvious what they're talking about with that one, honestly.

[Dark Faun]

My bad. I don't play enough to know this kind of things.

[Wraith]

Why would glueing the models on upside down affect Fleet of Foot? Not even the most creative rules-lawyer could make that connection. OTOH, doing so would remove any and all problems with the Fish of Fury technique. I think it's pretty obvious what they're talking about with that one, honestly.

Despite having played 40k for over a decade, I didn't know that FoF stood for and obscure, out-of-date acronym either, so cut 'im some slack!

Just because it's obscure, and a little bit pointless, doesn't make it impossible (See also: Hello Kitty! Dreadnought, Pink Monolith, Looted Carnifex).

[Trixie]

*grumbles about "Orks in a river"*

What?

[DaedalusMkV]

What?

I suspected this would confuse people...

One player no longer welcome at my LGS came in one day with 120 bases painted blue. They were "Orks", and he claimed that because no part of the body or torso was visible it was impossible to shoot them, while they were still "legal, entirely GW converted models". He claimed that we shouldn't penalize him for converting his army to be entirely made up of amphibious Orks, but he was quickly booted from the store and told, quite firmly, that he was no longer welcome there. It's the most extreme case of attempted rules-abuse I've ever seen.

[evisiron]

I suspected this would confuse people...

One player no longer welcome at my LGS came in one day with 120 bases painted blue. They were "Orks", and he claimed that because no part of the body or torso was visible it was impossible to shoot them, while they were still "legal, entirely GW converted models". He claimed that we shouldn't penalize him for converting his army to be entirely made up of amphibious Orks, but he was quickly booted from the store and told, quite firmly, that he was no longer welcome there. It's the most extreme case of attempted rules-abuse I've ever seen.

Heh, I once entered a flocked base with footprints and the label "Tau Stealth Suit" in the Golden Daemon Painting competition.

Though DaedalusMkV, if it was that obscure, why not post the story in the first place? I feel like we would have missed out if no-one asked!

[Kzickas]

where does it say psychic powers need to be used at the start of your turn? I thought you did, but when I played today we couldn't find that it said so anywhere