OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

[Schroeswald]

And yet there was talk about how the imbalance in her diet could cost her regardless. Also, look at the Dark One. If the world ends, he'll get all the souls of not one race, but several, and yet that's potentially not enough to tide him over. And he hasn't suffered from a lack of worship like Hel has. If he couldn't make it, how could she?

I think the unbalance would mess up her mind, but she gets a lot of dedication and a lot of souls, her worship would be pathetic so she'd be very crazy but she could survive, the main reason I imagine is that she already has some old soul reserves that TDO wouldn't (and not all goblinoids would necessary go to him, bugbears like Oona would likely go to their alignment afterlife as seen by Roy).

[Emanick]

But that's my point! Even after they are dead and safe and with him telling them point blank trees aren,'t evil they refuse to believe him!

This doesn't look like a refusal to believe Thor.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Marduk probably? Thor refers to the whole pantheon as "his clan." He also occupies a pretty prominent position in the mythology they are lifted from I believe.

Yes, we've been shown that Marduk is in charge of the Western Pantheon. Zeus was Eastern.

It's surprising how those two are able to cooperate when needed.

Well, they are brothers.

[Kantaki]

You mean after he tricked her into malnourishment over pretty much nothing?



Yep. Even sharper is the tongue of a child that is exactly as grateful as they should be, as Loki is learning here.

I mean he was basically trying to teach her why eating your veggies is important.

That his choosen method was to remove said veggies from her diet was perhaps a tad unwise- and her uncle stealing all her meat doesn't help either.

But ultimately?
Not admitting Loki was right.
Throwing away resources for a chance to win that stupid bet.
Not giving up on the stupid bet.
Accepting the stupid bet in the first place.
All on Hel.

So while Loki's way of teaching his little darling definitely wasn't particularly well thought out Hel is just as much to blame for the situation getting this bad.
(As is Thor to a degree, but considering he was doing his best to shield innocents from his drunken mistake he was at least trying to do good.)

[KorvinStarmast]

I mean he was basically trying to teach her why eating your veggies is important.
{snip}

So while Loki's way of teaching his little darling definitely wasn't particularly well thought out Hel is just as much to blame for the situation getting this bad.

I was a little surprised that during her panel 4 diatribe/threat, she didn't add

"And stop calling me Pumpkin! I know you think it's endearing, but it's also condescending! I am the Goddess of Death and have been for a few million worlds now."

Then again, there's only so much room in one panel.

[The MunchKING]

Same kind of person that worships any other evil deity. Presumably there are perks in life to be a Loki worshiper.
Grey Wolf

It's not really the same. Helheim is a nasty place where Hel tortures you all the time. Loki gets you into Valhalla. Possibly to sit at the Cool Kids table.

I agree. Hel only threatened his worshippers, not him directly. She plans to hurt him, not kill him.

Depends on how you take "You Will Waste Away and DIE as your name is erased from every history book." In her current state I think she plans to do to Loki what has been done to her. Prevent him from having any Clerics and spreading his name/influence, which will lead to him starving from lack of prayer. And when she says it now, she means she's not going to let up until he literally dies from it. (Which depending on your take on Gods dying may just dump him in her realm to be Gram's new chew toy).

If it's true that Hel's unbalanced soul diet would preclude her surviving to see the next world begin, then that implies her plan could never have worked to begin with. Don't know how to feel about that, or how it can't be true if the same is likely true of the Dark One.

I think the idea is the sudden dwarf-soul dump on her would keep her alive, if not healthy (because it's still crazy unbalanced) until the next world. Heck between that and the bet she thinks she would still have top power.

If we're being strict, shouldn't it be [mother]dóttir?

Which may still be Loki. I know for Fenrir and Slepnir he was the Mom. I don't know for Hel or Jornmunger, although Brathalla agreed with OOTS in having Hel always CALL him "Dad".

No-one worships or even likes Xykon and no god would sponsor him, so big fat no here.

Apotheosis has been proven to be a thing, so if he can just sacrifice ENOUGH Life essence, and get ENOUGH people believing in his as an Undead God of Death it might work out.

Doesn't mean he'd fit neatly into Hel's slot unless Fate is a lot more like Scion than our current indicators have shown.

You mean after he tricked her into malnourishment over pretty much nothing?

Yup. He's Loki. The idea that he DESERVES to be hated still doesn't stop him from feeling sad he IS hated.

So the Church of Hel gets protected by other churches on their gods' commands until Hel's Church can stand on its own two undead feet.

The problem is Vampires KIND OF need to Murder people and trap the souls of the bodies to propagate. If the idea is to get the Church of Hel up and running, they will need enough murdering to get the clergy going at the least.

Even in the normal tabletop D & D is it normal for adventuring parties to slaughter priests? I did with one character I had, but he was chaotic evil, and his main goal in life was to get under the party leader's (A paladin) skin

Evil ones? Sure. Usually if you could get them right as they were trying to summon a demon or undead army to wreck the world, you got the I Saved the World bonus.

I'm still a little iffy about why Loki arranged for the bet at all. I'm sure we'll get an explanation eventually, but as it stands, it feels like everyone gets a raw deal. The Dwarves, Hel, heck, even the other gods of the pantheon have to go out of their way to argue with a malnourished death goddess prone to tantrums just to get their Dwarven followers' souls to their rightful domains.

My guess was that "teach Hel a lesson" was the excuse he would tell people. But his real goal was to become the default Evil/Chaos God for the Dwarves as well. He was hoping to get a Hylgia type who would lead all the Chaotics and such to him for the "alternate argument Honor" and he'd rake in all the Chaotic Dwarves. But a combination of strong cultural pressure to be Lawful and a lack of a Hylgia-type to lead them, means he was stuck with whatever slipped through the cracks. Which because he had Clerics and spread throughout the Human lands, was merely a minor setback to him rather than the big deal it was to Hel.

It's part of a theory that he also influenced Odin to go bonkers, and Thor to be stuck trying to be Lawful to protect the Dwarves so that everyone close to him in power would be too distracted by their own problems to stop him from doing even MORE shenanigans.

And yet there was talk about how the imbalance in her diet could cost her regardless. Also, look at the Dark One. If the world ends, he'll get all the souls of not one race, but several, and yet that's potentially not enough to tide him over. And he hasn't suffered from a lack of worship like Hel has. If he couldn't make it, how could she?

Tapping into Pantheon reserves would be the other option. All the belief that the North has stored up in the concept of them as the Psudeo-Norse Pantheon as a whole. The Dark One, being new wouldn't have any of that, and the minor Gods Thor has seen die off weren't integrated strongly enough into the Pantheon to be part of their collective Legend would be my guess.

Well, I did say "That I know of".

Can all of them become Clerics though? And this doesn,'t solve the fact that undead seem to be persona non-grata everywhere that isn't a criminal organisation in a city with more criminals than victims (and even the back-alley doctor doesn't like them) or at the Oracle's place.

I thought pretty much anything that was free willed COULD Be a Cleric if it got enough XP to go up a level. Preferably you'd want something with a decent WIS, but unlike AD&D that's not strictly required...

[RatElemental]

Is Loki sad because he knows there's a way to keep the world going forever, and thus Hel will never recover? Or is it just being yelled at by his kid?

Bit late here but I think it's because she went invisible for a second there and he realized he might be killing his kid.

[Ruck]

This doesn't look like a refusal to believe Thor.

It does to me.

[understatement]

wOw, scary Hel is freakin' awesome.

The gods have been great so far!

[D.One]

I thought pretty much anything that was free willed COULD Be a Cleric if it got enough XP to go up a level. Preferably you'd want something with a decent WIS, but unlike AD&D that's not strictly required...

Well, a Cleric without enough WIS to cast spells isn't a terribly effective cleric (although it can have big CHA and attract lots of followers), but it's also a cleric that spends little divine power...

Now I'm wondering who (which god) would give spells for Belkar if he had enough WIS...

[The_Weirdo]

I mean he was basically trying to teach her why eating your veggies is important.

That his choosen method was to remove said veggies from her diet was perhaps a tad unwise- and her uncle stealing all her meat doesn't help either.

But ultimately?
Not admitting Loki was right.
Throwing away resources for a chance to win that stupid bet.
Not giving up on the stupid bet.
Accepting the stupid bet in the first place.
All on Hel.

So while Loki's way of teaching his little darling definitely wasn't particularly well thought out Hel is just as much to blame for the situation getting this bad.
(As is Thor to a degree, but considering he was doing his best to shield innocents from his drunken mistake he was at least trying to do good.)

First, a question: was this about the divine food pyramid? Because it didn't seem that way. It seemed like more of a bet for Loki's own purposes.

Second, in either case, we'd be talking about a parent that fed their daughter nothing but (say) candy for weeks on end and got her hospitalized for it. Mind, Hel is an adult, so the analogy has some issues, but you got the point. It's still dysfunctional and harmful either ways and, while Hel can easily be angry at him, he can't exactly be angry at her for a harmful situation that, no matter how you look at it, he initiated.

Mind: I hate Hel.

I was a little surprised that during her panel 4 diatribe/threat, she didn't add

"And stop calling me Pumpkin! I know you think it's endearing, but it's also condescending! I am the Goddess of Death and have been for a few million worlds now."

Then again, there's only so much room in one panel.

It would take away fro the gravitas of the situation, too. While she throws temper tantrums all the time, this isn't one; she's legitimately furious at her father, and even he seems to believe it's with good reason.

Yup. He's Loki. The idea that he DESERVES to be hated still doesn't stop him from feeling sad he IS hated.

Oh, certainly. I mean, he may even feel sadder that he knows he deserves it.

[Matt620]

The deity version of a spoiled tantrum. I hope that's enough from Hel for the time being.

[Schroeswald]

Yes, we've been shown that Marduk is in charge of the Western Pantheon. Zeus was Eastern.



Well, they are brothers.

Odin is shown as the boss of the Northern Pantheon too, called Thor's father, if we are to assume they developed before creating the worlds I'd say each developed independently, six Eastern Gods, twelve Southern Gods, a few Western Gods, and two or three Northern Gods started and then they (barring the Southerners) breeded with their own quiddity and a few special types of Outsiders. By the time that they created the first world there were 12 Westerners, 12 or so Easterners, 12 Southerners and 12 Northerners (I'd say 14 Easterners because that number more accurately matches the mythology, but twelve Northern and Southern Gods and we can pretend the others we see in the West joined since).

[The MunchKING]

Well, a Cleric without enough WIS to cast spells isn't a terribly effective cleric (although it can have big CHA and attract lots of followers), but it's also a cleric that spends little divine power...

Now I'm wondering who (which god) would give spells for Belkar if he had enough WIS...

He's a Ranger, so he might just pull it from the Primal Powers of Nature or something.

Otherwise the North has a few guys and gals that minor in Fertility/Nature and the South is a collective, so who knows what their Purviews are...

[The_Weirdo]

The deity version of a spoiled tantrum. I hope that's enough from Hel for the time being.

No. Hel throws tantrums all the time. And she is, well, evil, petty, etc. But here? Here we're not talking about the equivalent of a child whose father denied her a toy. We're talking about the equivalent of a child whose father spent a month or so feeding her only sweets and who is now justifiably enraged that her father's decision landed her in a hospital for three months to treat several problems arising from that at once.

[D.One]

I still think the bet thing will be further explored as part of a greater plan besides "teaching Hel that clerics and worship are important". I do think, however, Loki seems a little regretful about her current state.

Aaaand, I'm still curious about what are the winnings of the bet, besides gloating.

[Schroeswald]

No. Hel throws tantrums all the time. And she is, well, evil, petty, etc. But here? Here we're not talking about the equivalent of a child whose father denied her a toy. We're talking about the equivalent of a child whose father spent a month or so feeding only on sweets and who is now justifiably enraged that her father's decision landed her in a hospital for three months to treat several problems arising from that at once.

Though to be fair the latest problems came from her trying to steal everyone else's candy and her pushing her sugar rush far too long.

[The MunchKING]

Aaaand, I'm still curious about what are the winnings of the bet, besides gloating.

Presumably Soul power. Enough of it she felt justified in including it with the dead souls as what would make her more powerful than Odin.

I mean knowing how they work it COULD just be some ridiculously powerful Artifact. Their basis did like betting those a lot in Scion...

[The_Weirdo]

Though to be fair the latest problems came from her trying to steal everyone else's candy and her pushing her sugar rush far too long.

I most certainly agree with you there, but Hel's anger towards Loki isn't about that part, is it?

[Schroeswald]

Presumably Soul power. Enough of it she felt justified in including it with the dead souls as what would make her more powerful than Odin.

I mean knowing how they work it COULD just be some ridiculously powerful Artifact. Their basis did like betting those a lot in Scion...

"So if Thor wins, he gets that dog of yours for a world, and if you win you get Mjolnir for a world, deal?"

I most certainly agree with you there, but Hel's anger towards Loki isn't about that part, is it?

I mean the reason she's so bad right now comes from her giving power to the clerics and giving up a bunch of souls for a better chance to get the 10 million.

[The MunchKING]

First, a question: was this about the divine food pyramid? Because it didn't seem that way. It seemed like more of a bet for Loki's own purposes.

I mean it does seem a bit like she needed to learn the value of Belief and Worship; but also now that I look at the metaphor it also seems to be some kind of "Don't abuse the help when they bring you food" thing too. She rejected the clerics because they COST her power, and took the souls and fear of death at the moment of death because it GAVE her power. SO yeah, she needed to learn something about being willing to pay the grocery man so he'll bring you more food than your giving him. Or something like that. The metaphor isn't perfect.

[pendell]

So does anyone know what the deal is with Hel's speech balloons? I notice they shade from her normal divine-yellow to undead-black, then back to normal again. Is there anything to that beyond simple emphasis by the writer?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[The_Weirdo]

I mean it does seem a bit like she needed to learn the value of Belief and Worship; but also now that I look at the metaphor it also seems to be some kind of "Don't abuse the help when they bring you food" thing too. She rejected the clerics because they COST her power, and took the souls and fear of death at the moment of death because it GAVE her power. SO yeah, she needed to learn something about being willing to pay the grocery man so he'll bring you more food than your giving him. Or something like that. The metaphor isn't perfect.

Maybe, yes. But still, if, through this bet, he maddened and weakened her to make a point, he can't exactly be surprised when she's furious at him...

So does anyone know what the deal is with Hel's speech balloons? I notice they shade from her normal divine-yellow to undead-black, then back to normal again. Is there anything to that beyond simple emphasis by the writer?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Her voice likely changed to her beyond-the-grave, power-over-the-undead, reverberating-fear-me-because-I-am-enraged voice.

Respectfully,

Not Brian P.

[The MunchKING]

So does anyone know what the deal is with Hel's speech balloons? I notice they shade from her normal divine-yellow to undead-black, then back to normal again. Is there anything to that beyond simple emphasis by the writer?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

She's presumably channeling Negative Energy and her Purview as the Goddess of Death to give her more of that "Evil Undead Queen" voice. If she was a dude she'd sound like James Earl Jones, but as she's not I don't know if she gets more a Gladreal voice or what.

[Schroeswald]

So does anyone know what the deal is with Hel's speech balloons? I notice they shade from her normal divine-yellow to undead-black, then back to normal again. Is there anything to that beyond simple emphasis by the writer?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Partially that (though notice that the text is yellow), but she is also fading from existence, as she gets more unstable she also gets more skeletal, and thus more undead/weaker.

[Fyraltari]

This doesn't look like a refusal to believe Thor.

Are you serious? This is exactly what not believing someone but being unwilling to contradict them looks like.

Apotheosis has been proven to be a thing, so if he can just sacrifice ENOUGH Life essence, and get ENOUGH people believing in his as an Undead God of Death it might work out.

Life essence? We know of two things necessary to ascend:
1) a chole bunch of people following your teachings and
2) Tapping into a divine essence either by "sponsorship" or however the Dark POne did.

Nobody follows Xykon willingly, nobody sees him as anything more than a dangerus madman. The Dark One had a million goblins going on a year-long revenge-fueled rampage. When Xykon dies he will get a few "good riddance" and maybe a party.

I thought pretty much anything that was free willed COULD Be a Cleric if it got enough XP to go up a level. Preferably you'd want something with a decent WIS, but unlike AD&D that's not strictly required...

I prefer not to make any assumptions regarding D&D rules. For all I know any given type of undead could be barred from chanelling divine power.

First, a question: was this about the divine food pyramid? Because it didn't seem that way. It seemed like more of a bet for Loki's own purposes.

We don't know what it was about. The closest we got to hear an explanation from Loki is when he tried to tell Hel his intention wasn't to stop her from attending the Moots/curbing her influence which may or may not be true.

The whole "teach her a lesson" comes from the fact that Hel clearly did not see Clerics as important before that world.

Second, in either case, we'd be talking about a parent that fed their daughter nothing but (say) candy for weeks on end and got her hospitalized for it. Mind, Hel is an adult, so the analogy has some issues, but you got the point. It's still dysfunctional and harmful either ways and, while Hel can easily be angry at him, he can't exactly be angry at her for a harmful situation that, no matter how you look at it, he initiated.

He doesn't look angry at Hel at all. Mostly sad and disappointed.

[Squire Doodad]

And, two weeks later, Hel and Thyrm start going out. And they lived happily ever after until the world ended. The end.

[The_Weirdo]

He doesn't look angry at Hel at all. Mostly sad and disappointed.

Yes, it was my point; even he can tell he screwed up bad.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Well, a Cleric without enough WIS to cast spells isn't a terribly effective cleric (although it can have big CHA and attract lots of followers), but it's also a cleric that spends little divine power...

Now I'm wondering who (which god) would give spells for Belkar if he had enough WIS...

Skadi, presumably.

[The MunchKING]

Life essence? We know of two things necessary to ascend:
1) a chole bunch of people following your teachings and
2) Tapping into a divine essence either by "sponsorship" or however the Dark POne did.

Nobody follows Xykon willingly, nobody sees him as anything more than a dangerus madman. The Dark One had a million goblins going on a year-long revenge-fueled rampage. When Xykon dies he will get a few "good riddance" and maybe a party.

That was my point. The death of millions, consecrated in the Name of The Dark One is what gave him the soul-power needed to ascend. Xykon just has do his own massacres to fuel his own Divine Ascension if that's what he's going for. And it would be less praying to him as loyal followers, and more praying to him not to super-murder them now that he's a God. Kind of like what Hel got on the previous worlds.