[3.5] Best Ultimate Magus build?

[Tedesche]

Please only post builds that focus on UM, rather than just dipping in it for some reason. I'm interested in how people utilize the class. The most obvious build seems to be Wizard 9/Sorcerer 1/Ultimate Magus 10. Although Wiz 9/Beguiler 1/UM 10 is arguably better. Anyway, I'm interested in what people may come up with, so post away!

[PId6]

Wizard 5/Ultimate Magus 10/Archmage 5

Qualify for UM using Spontaneous Divination. You end up with full wizard casting, and gain +4 CL from UM along with +5 CL from Archmage.

[Tedesche]

Qualify for UM using Spontaneous Divination.

What is that, where is it from, and what does it do?

[Tinydwarfman]

Also note, the boosts you get from UM in that way are actual effective level boosts, note just boosted CL.

[Keld Denar]

Yea, but then you don't get that tasty tasty free metamagic!

I'd say Beguiler1/Wizard4/UM10/X5 is about the best to get the most out of all of UM's features. If your DM counds Illuman's as humans (given that they have the human subtype), you could pick up Able Learner at level 1 to fully take away the rogues toys and break them in a tantrum. Illumian with the Krau sigil along with Practiced Spellcaster gives you full Wizard progression from UM, since your Wizard CL will always be equal to your Beguiler CL, allowing you to pick. Without Illuman, you have to put an extra (wasted) level in Beguiler meaning you end up with 18/20 wizard casting instead of 19/20.

Spontaneous Divination is in Complete Champion. You give up one of your Wizard bonus feats (typically your 5th level one) for the ability to cast any Divination spell you know spontaneously by sacrificing a spell slot, similarly to how a Cleric spontaneously casts cures. Technically, this qualifies you as a spontaneous spellcaster.

[Eldariel]

Wizard 5/Mindbender 1/Ultimate Magus 1/Nar Demonbinder 1/Ultimate Magus +9/Archmage 3

Gets full Nar Demonbinder, and 19th level Wizard casting. Thanks to how Nar Demonbinder CL is calculated, you don't even lose out on a feat to pick up Practiced Spellcaster. As it doesn't get 1st level spells though, you do however need to use Spontaneous Divination to qualify (if DM doesn't waive that part anyways; the fact that you have a spontaneous caster class should be enough IMHO but RAW requires you to be able to spontaneously cast level 1 spells, which Nar Demonbinder doesn't get).


As the first Ultimate Magus-level advances only the class with lower caster level in the progression, it doesn't matter that you have no Nar Demonbinder levels yet since it'd advance only Wizard anyways. This gets you level 8 spells from Demonbinder and the usual level 9 from Wizard; beats almost any other Ultimate Magus soundly in spell levels [Almost 'cause Beholder Mage...]. Archmage and Mindbender are, as should be obvious, placeholders. The real build is Wizard 5/X 1/UM 1/Nar Demonbinder 1/UM +9/X 3

[PId6]

What is that, where is it from, and what does it do?

Complete Champion Wizard ACF. Lets you spontaneously give up prepared slots to cast Divination spells. Allows Wizards to qualify for "cast spontaneously" requirements.

Also note, the boosts you get from UM in that way are actual effective level boosts, note just boosted CL.

Eh, I'm going with the less broken interpretation of you can't advance the same spellcasting class twice at the same level with the same PrC. My cheese tolerance isn't that high.

[Il_Vec]

I actually am playing a Beguiler 1/Transmuter 3/ Master Specialist 1/UM 5 on a campaign right now, aiming for UM 10 into Archmage. You can drop Evocation and Illusion or Enchantment and never feel it, because you get all the good spells with your Beguiler casting.

[Eldariel]

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention. Nar Demonbinder gets a good bunch of normally-not-arcane spells available at your perusal, including:
- Spell Resistance
- Plane Shift (on level 5)
- The entire Blasphemy-line (did I remember to mention you've got a high caster level for Demonbinder even by conservative reading let alone the more permissive one?)

And then lesser stuff like Flame Strike and Holy Aura. And while they, like Sorcerers, have limited list of spells known, they get all alignments of stuff like Magic Circle against X, Dispel X, Holy Word-line and Holy Aura as one "known" slot.

[Tedesche]

Okay, maybe I'm slow, but I don't really get how this Spontaneous Divination ACF would work with UM. It does technically qualify you, but since you don't actually have another arcane casting class, and thus can't choose a "lower" class to improve at 1st, 4th, and 7th levels...this seems to go strongly against RAI.

EDIT: Actually, since the book says "lower" instead of "lowest," you could even make the argument that it doesn't work by RAW....

Also, I don't get how the CL boost from UM would translate to actual level boosting with that build. Even if you ignored my above point, wouldn't it still simply mean your known spells would be stronger, rather than pumping you up to the next actual level of spells known?

[Il_Vec]

Your lower class is your higher class, nothing says they must be different. Spontaneous divination is clearly against RAI, but it works in RAW.

About the CL boosting, it really does only make your actual spells last longer and hit harder, not taking you up a level.

[Akal Saris]

Complete Champion Wizard ACF. Lets you spontaneously give up prepared slots to cast Divination spells. Allows Wizards to qualify for "cast spontaneously" requirements.


Eh, I'm going with the less broken interpretation of you can't advance the same spellcasting class twice at the same level with the same PrC. My cheese tolerance isn't that high.

He's not advancing it twice at the same time. At 4 points in the PrC, both sides of your casting get a permanent +1 to effective CL in addition to +1 spellcasting. Look at the class and you'll see what I mean.

Anyhow, I'd agree that if you go with the RAI entry, Wizard 5/Mindbender 1/Ultimate Magus 1/Nar Demonbinder 1/Ultimate Magus +9/Archmage 3 or any other variant on that theme is probably the strongest you'll manage short of beholder mage or late level sublime chord.

But the beguiler build (Illumian Beguiler 1/Wiz 3/Master Specialist 1/UM 10/Archmage 5, for example) is more rules-legal and has better skills at all levels, so that's really my preference if I had to play an UM from 1-20.

[PId6]

Okay, maybe I'm slow, but I don't really get how this Spontaneous Divination ACF would work with UM. It does technically qualify you, but since you don't actually have another arcane casting class, and thus can't choose a "lower" class to improve at 1st, 4th, and 7th levels...this seems to go strongly against RAI.

The actual wording is "as if you had also gained a level in your arcane casting class with the lowest caster level." Since Wizard is your only arcane casting class, it automatically has the lowest (and highest) caster level among your arcane casting classes.

And yeah, it's obviously against RAI, but works fine by RAW. Most UM builds require some fanangling of the intent to make it not be too much of a self-nerf, though I'll grant that this build goes further than most.

Also, I don't get how the CL boost from UM would translate to actual level boosting with that build. Even if you ignored my above point, wouldn't it still simply mean your known spells would be stronger, rather than pumping you up to the next actual level of spells known?

It's the idea that you can advance Wizard twice at some levels since it's both a prepared and a spontaneous casting class. I don't actually subscribe to that interpretation, but you can make a case for it. Incredibly abusive and strictly TO though.

He's not advancing it twice at the same time. At 4 points in the PrC, both sides of your casting get a permanent +1 to effective CL in addition to +1 spellcasting. Look at the class and you'll see what I mean.

Also note, the boosts you get from UM in that way are actual effective level boosts, note just boosted CL.

Depends on what he meant by "actual effective level boosts." I've already mentioned the +4 CL from UM, so I thought he meant that you get higher than normal spellcasting level (which in turn grants you more slots/spells). I may have read the post wrong though.

[Eldariel]

The thing I dislike about the Beguiler-build is that the Beguiler is so gimped. You end up with ~level 8-10 Beguiler casting which is equal to 4th-5th level spells or so. By 20. Nar Demonbinder, on the other hand, provides you with 8th level spells and overall, sticks along much better.

Beguiler generally becomes Metamagic Battery while casting your Nerveskitters and such, but Nar Demonbinder contributes to your actual ability outside fueling metamagic too. It is, of course, no secret that the biggest thing in Ultimate Magus is the "Augment Casting"-ability; free metamagic can be really good.


As it can only be metamagicked "once" (you can't Augment a metamagicked spell), you generally want high cost high impact metamagic like Quicken, Persistent, Twin and company. For fueling those, Beguiler is kinda meh, but Demonbinder shines.

[Il_Vec]

Currently, on my character (If you missed my other post, level 10 ), I usually end using lots of beguiler spells for utility and save my higher level Wizard ones only when real trouble comes along.

[erikun]

I enjoy the Wizard 4 / Bard 1 / Ultimate Magus 10 / PrC 5 myself. Take the Practiced Spellcaster (Bard) feat, and you only lose two caster levels of Wizard - one at 1st/3rd level when taking Bard, and one at 12th level when you must advance the lower-level Bard casting.

Bard has less spells and is more MAD than something like Beguiler, but it gives more variety than a Wiz/Sorc/UM. There is also fun stuff like the Disguise Spell feat and UMD ranks from having Bard levels.

[Tedesche]

Yeah, I dunno. I'm fairly averse to rules cheese, and thus don't typically go along with things that conflict RAI too much, even in my personal class-combo experimentations.

I don't know about the Nar Demonbinder build—don't know that class. The illumian beguiler/wizard build seems nice though.

It's a pity you have to choose one class over the other in order to get to 20th level. If I were DMing a high-powered campaign, I might rule that 10-level PrCs could be continued before 20th, as it doesn't really make much real-world sense that you'd have to put your best skill set on hiatus until you gained more experience.

As for the "lower" vs. "lowest" thing, I think it's a RAW toss-up. The class feature text says "lowest," but the class table says "lower." One could argue all day about it, but in the end, we'd all have to admit that it's a simple oversight by the writers.

[PId6]

Another one:

Race: Dragonwrought Kobold (Loredrake)

Wizard 3/Sorcerer 1/Ultimate Magus 10/Mystic Theurge 6

Use Favored -> Primary Contact to qualify for UM's skill prereqs.
Use Loredrake and Greater Draconic Rite of Passage to add +3 free Sorcerer levels (White Dragonspawn with LA Buyoff can be added for another +1).
Advance Wizard for UM 1 and UM 4, and advance Sorcerer for UM 7.
Use Alternative Source Spell to qualify for Mystic Theurge, advancing Wizard as arcane class and Sorcerer as divine class.

End result:

18th Wizard
18th Sorcerer

[Il_Vec]

As for the "lower" vs. "lowest" thing, I think it's a RAW toss-up. The class feature text says "lowest," but the class table says "lower." One could argue all day about it, but in the end, we'd all have to admit that it's a simple oversight by the writers.

I don't mean to come across as rude or as truth-bearer, but when text and table conflict, text take precedence unless there is an errata.
I would never let anyone enter UM using only one caster class, but any way you read it, if you have only one class, it is at the same time your lowest, lower, medium, higher and highest class. The class even states that if two of your classes are tied, you choose one. That said, I couldn't agree more that it is a class meant for entry with two different classes and should never be entered with only one, making that argument completely irrelevant.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Beguiler 1/Battle Stalwart Sorcerer 4/UM 10/Archmage 5, using Dragonwrought Kobold with the free +2 casting from Dragons of Eberron's dragon archetypes, Whitedragonspawn, LA buy-off, Greater Draconic Right, and the dragon psychosis from some Dragon magazine that turns all sorcerer casting into wizard casting.

End result is that your sorcerer wizard casting is at your level +2 before UM and eventually settles down to just your level even without using Practiced Spellcaster (Beguiler).

EDIT: End result is wizard casting of 20 with CL of moar, Beguiler casting of 11.

EDIT2: Actually, you could do PId6's shenanigans, too, making it Beguiler 1/Sorcerer 3/UM 10/MT 6 to get spells as a 20th level wizard and 17th level beguiler. You could switch it to Beguiler 2/Sorcerer 2 to start for 19 and 18, respectively, but I'd rather just use Versatile Spellcaster to get 9th level Beguiler spells.

[Fishy]

I like to squeeze in one level of Spellthief and Master Spellthief. For the cost of one level and one feat, your CL is permanently set to the sum of all your arcane caster levels- which at worst spares you from having to be an Illumian and at best kicks you up into the 30s. Life is good.

Wizard 3/Master Specialist 1/Spellthief 1/Trapsmith 1/Ultimate Magus seems interesting.

Probably strictly inferior to the Spontaneous Divination build, but can a Wu Jen with the Elemental Adept feat stroll into UM?

[Tedesche]

Another one:

Race: Dragonwrought Kobold (Loredrake)

Wizard 3/Sorcerer 1/Ultimate Magus 10/Mystic Theurge 6

Use Favored -> Primary Contact to qualify for UM's skill prereqs.
Use Loredrake and Greater Draconic Rite of Passage to add +3 free Sorcerer levels (White Dragonspawn with LA Buyoff can be added for another +1).
Advance Wizard for UM 1 and UM 4, and advance Sorcerer for UM 7.
Use Alternative Source Spell to qualify for Mystic Theurge, advancing Wizard as arcane class and Sorcerer as divine class.

End result:

18th Wizard
18th Sorcerer

You know much more about this game than I do, and I simply can't follow you most of the time. 18th Wiz/Sorc sounds awesome though.

[PId6]

Probably strictly inferior to the Spontaneous Divination build, but can a Wu Jen with the Elemental Adept feat stroll into UM?

Yes, that also works.

Actually, with Alternative Source Spell, Cleric/Druid qualifies for it out-of-the-box thanks to spontaneous healing/summoning.

Wizard 2/Cleric 1/Mystic Theurge 10/Ultimate Magus 7 for Wizard 17 and Cleric 17.

You know much more about this game than I do, and I simply can't follow you most of the time. 18th Wiz/Sorc sounds awesome though.

Favored -> Primary Contact is a pair of feats from Cityscape that lets you gain 1 additional rank in a skill, even above the usual skill rank limit (good for early entry, and that's it).

Dragonwrought is a feat from Races of the Dragon that turns a kobold into a true dragon, letting them take the Loredrake Sovereign Archetype from Dragons of Eberron (which grants +2 free sorcerer levels to a true dragon).

Alternative Source Spell is a metamagic feat from Dragon Magazine that lets you turn an arcane spell into a divine one or vice versa (letting you qualify for Mystic Theurge with arcane spellcasting classes).

Greater Draconic Rite of Passage is a ritual that kobolds may perform (found in the Races of the Dragon web enhancement), which grants them an additional free sorcerer level.

Note, all of this is extreme cheese and should never actually be attempted in a real game (except for the highest powered ones).

[Tedesche]

Mm. Props for your ranks in Encyclopedic Knowledge (AD&D), but I probably should have put "hold the gouda" in the thread title.

[PId6]

Mm. Props for your ranks in Encyclopedic Knowledge (AD&D), but I probably should have put "hold the gouda" in the thread title.

Well, you did ask for the "best" Ultimate Magus build.

For a practical build, yeah, Eldariel's Nar Demonbinder build is probably the best one.

[Il_Vec]

So you meant Best USABLE build

[Thrice Dead Cat]

So you meant Best USABLE build

Hey now, PId6's stuff is (ab)usable! That totally counts, right?

[Tedesche]

Actually, another thing I should have mentioned is that I was also interested in people's feat and spell choices. Sorcerers get access to the arcane fusion spells and can make better use of arcane spellsurge. With a UM build, you could theoretically use your prepared spells with those, no?

I once made an epic-level sorceress (my avatar is taken from her character portrait, actually), that utilized an epic spell the DM let me create, called epic arcane fusion. Same thing, but with 6th- and 9th-level spells. She took three levels of Improved Metamagic, twinned an arcane fusion and greater arcane fusion up a spell-level each, and used Twin Spell and Split Ray to send forth a veritable volley of rainbow beams. Called the technique "prismatic starburst." She had another one, called "assassination jaunt," that involved two dimension doors and five disintegrates. In, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, out. Not a UM build, but still fun nonetheless.

[Eldariel]

Sigh. You folks go into the TO land and fail to take Beholder Mage with you? For shame! If going for best spontaneous caster with Ultimate Magus, it's most certainly Beholder Mage. But I refuse to go there since that involves Polymorph Any Object shenanigans, among other things.

Eh. Maybe I'll make an exception:

Archivist 1/Tainted Scholar 2/Incantatrix 3/Dweomerkeeper 4/Beholder Mage 1/Ultimate Magus 9

With ASS, some Inspire Greatness+Reformation shenanigans you can enter Tainted Scholar on 2. Same tricks allow you to go into Incantatrix and Dweomerkeeper. Then you use PAO twice with Assume Supernatural Abilityx2 to enter Beholder Mage. Later you can do some Reformation once you're under Shapechange 24/7 anyways.

You go ahead and pick up Metamagic Effect & Supernatural Spell and have fun. You'll end up with 10/10 Beholder Mage and 17/20 Archivist casting; this means you can pretty much cast all spells ever printed. You can also persist half a hundred spells daily and your casting is entirely Wis SAD ('cause you do it based off your Depravity). You can also cast spells with components for free 1/day. And umm...yeah.


EDIT: Yeah, caster level requirements can be covered with just feats increasing your caster level. Or some such. And if one were running out of feats (I'm too lazy to run the numbers), Chaos Shuffle some extras. This is a really simple, brute force approach but I'm in a hurry.

[Il_Vec]

For my part:
Feats:
Human: School Focus (Transmutation)
1 Metamagic School Focus (Transmutation)
Master Specialist: Skill Focus
3 Empower Spell
6 Split Ray
9 Arcane Thesis (Ray of stupidity, but Enervation works well here as well)
12 Arcane Disciple (Competition)
15 Quicken Spell
18 Maximize Spell