Monk... Why do they suck?

[~Nye~]

Hi.
For some reason on this forum and many others people have the impression that monks are a really weak class. Having never really played a monk because the flavour doesn't appeal, I don't really know.
Having seen one in action in campaigns I've DMd for I have evidence to beleive in many situations thay can definately hold their own. The only weakness I can really see in the class is maybe at low levels being particularly squishy, but if you stack wisdom that's really not going to be a problem. Also, the lack of ranged attacks is simply solved by taking 'Ring the Golden Bell' from Dragon Magazine. To me it just seems like it's very much discredited for being a powerhouse.

[Sims]

Hi.
For some reason on this forum and many others people have the impression that monks are a really weak class. Having never really played a monk because the flavour doesn't appeal, I don't really know.
Having seen one in action in campaigns I've DMd for I have evidence to beleive in many situations thay can definately hold their own. The only weakness I can really see in the class is maybe at low levels being particularly squishy, but if you stack wisdom that's really not going to be a problem. Also, the lack of ranged attacks is simply solved by taking 'Ring the Golden Bell' from Dragon Magazine. To me it just seems like it's very much discredited for being a powerhouse.

Its mostly due to poor BAB and you can't enchant unarmed strikes, nor can you cast spells.

[Gnaeus]

Sigh.

Monks have abilities with no synergy...You cannot flurry & fast move, for example.

They require lots of good attributes to be effective. At least Str, Dex, Con and Wis, and they can't dump Int.

Most of their class abilities are duplicated by spells that spellcasters were casting several levels earlier.

They are a melee class, with mediocre hp, bad AC, mediocre BaB, and they almost always do less damage than a fighter or barbarian with a 2h weapon. In other words they are bad at their job.

You can make an unarmed fighter who can do everything that a monk does, better than the monk. That character is weaker than a normal fighter, and normal fighters aren't very good.

A monk is very, very rarely more helpful than the druid's pet.

[cfalcon]

{scrubbed}

[Amphetryon]

• Monks are theoretically designed to be hit-and-run skirmishers (Fast Movement, low AC relative to most melee, d8 HD) but need to stand still in order to activate their primary combat shtick (Flurry of Blows). This is often cited as Poor Design.
• Flurry of Blows adds penalties on top of a 3/4 BAB, resulting in what's often jokingly referred to as "Flurry of Misses."
• Monks WIS to AC feature makes them MAD - Multiple Attribute Dependent - in order to keep their AC on the low end of viable for the levels where AC is a good defense.
• The fact that they cannot wear armor or use a shield prevents them from ever having a good AC relative to other appropriately equipped melee types at mid levels and beyond.

[~Nye~]

Ok, well Thanks for taking me seriously, but from what I've seen my players do with a monk I don't really consider it weak.
We've done certain homebrew things to fix the lack of enhancement bonuses to hit and things.
Cheers for the quick response!

[hivedragon]

Its mostly due to poor BAB and you can't enchant unarmed strikes, nor can you cast spells.

i think magic fang works on that and then there is the kensai

[Malevolence]

I'll pass out fire resistance. Can someone else get protection from fire?

http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=163271#163271

[Darth Stabber]

If you have access to Tome of Battle, you have no need of homebrew fixes. Unarmed variant Swordsage is 99% of what you want out of a monk, and it actually works. Now if only I could get spell storing fists.

[T.G. Oskar]

Yes, it is generally a bad idea to do so these days...but we *can* keep it civil, right?

i think magic fang works on that and then there is the kensai

Yes, Magic Fang (and Magic Weapon) work (since the unarmed strike counts as both a natural weapon and as a manufactured weapon whenever it's most beneficial). However, while you can enchant your unarmed strikes with an enhancement bonus (temporarily and by means of a spell, or through the Amulet of Mighty Fists which is way too expensive), you can't add weapon special abilities to it. The only way is through a Necklace of Natural Attacks, which makes enchanting unarmed strikes pretty expensive (as if you were wielding a masterwork weapon originally costing 300 gp, turned into 600 through masterwork, and then adding the costs of the abilities). Same thing with armor: they can't equip it, so they lose on armor special abilities they might get (energy resistance and spell resistance isn't much, but don't tell me fortification and a few others such as Healing/Greater Healing aren't bad to add to an armor...)

The only proper way to self-boost your unarmed strikes is through Kensai, but Kensai doesn't enhance your monk abilities (hence, you might need to rely upon Superior Unarmed Strike, a Monk's Belt and a few others to keep some of the good parts of being a Monk),

Oh, and BTW: I also suggest everyone to get acid resistance, in case things go vitriolic. I, for once, will try to buffer up the thread. Chemistry joke, mwahaha!

[thompur]

Hey! It's not Monday! Shouldn't this be a 'why do fighters suck' thread.
But seriously, folks, one thing I give monks is Spring Attack for free for their unarmed strike and Flurry of blows, so that they can actually do what they're suppose to do.

[Veyr]

That's still not nearly enough.

[Dvandemon]

Are monks weaker with the weapons they're proficient with?

[Gnoman]

A big factor is also ability generation. MAD is really bad in a point-buy system, but potentially less in a rolled one, especially if yu have a generous DM that lets you reroll one stat.

[Darth Stabber]

Let monks take the one extra attack on a standard action attack or charge. Flurry gives you 1 extra attack, so just apply it a little further. Then they START to get close to their design goals.

[Lateral]

Oh, it's Monkday already? What happened to the weekend?
--------
Okay, in all seriousness, I asked this question here when I was new at D&D, and the thread got to about 20 pages in a few days. I don't really think I can summarize everything said in that thread, but I could probably dig it up eventually.

Edit: Here we go.

[Seerow]

Quick and Dirty version of make Monks not suck:

-Give them full BAB
-Give them a Soulknife-esque progression for their fists. Possibly let this apply to any non-enchanted monk weapon they hold.
-Give them Wis to hit/damage in place of strength.
-Let flurry's bonus attacks apply anytime you attack, as opposed to just full round actions.
-Add Spring Attack to the potential bonus feats, possibly also the PHB2 feat that gives you an extra attack on it as a level 6 bonus feat option.
-Abundant Step becomes usable more frequently (once per day is pretty horrible), and usable as a move action or swift action, rather than the normal standard action + end turn effect of dimension door. I'd give it at least 4 uses per day, or a per encounter limit instead.


These changes at least take the Monk from useless and push them into a strong skirmisher. They're still nowhere near the capability of casters, but they can compete with other melee types at least. A more comprehensive writeup/change would be needed to bring them up to the level of the tier 3 classes or higher.

[Vangor]

As said, choose the Unarmed Swordsage variant from ToB, frankly. The system seems ideal for the monk flavor by performing named maneuvers within stances and such, and this is mechanically capable.

Do note, plenty of people suggest "such and such option isn't bad because X anecdote". Anything of similar tier and similar optimization within a properly designed campaign will appear effective and likely will be. The issue is when you begin to find similar optimization in higher tiers or attempt to further optimize a pure or primary monk.

Monk issues are the amount of additional class features focused on saves despite all good saves, 3/4 BAB despite melee focus, and MAD.

But seriously, folks, one thing I give monks is Spring Attack for free for their unarmed strike and Flurry of blows, so that they can actually do what they're suppose to do.

Spring attack won't allow the monk to do anything better with flurry of blows. Flurry requires a full-attack action, and spring attack only functions with an attack option.

[Psyren]

Ok, well Thanks for taking me seriously, but from what I've seen my players do with a monk I don't really consider it weak.
We've done certain homebrew things to fix the lack of enhancement bonuses to hit and things.

Let me get this straight... you don't consider it weak... yet you homebrewed fixes for it?

Do you seriously not see the problem here?

[Gnaeus]

Ok, well Thanks for taking me seriously, but from what I've seen my players do with a monk I don't really consider it weak.
We've done certain homebrew things to fix the lack of enhancement bonuses to hit and things.
Cheers for the quick response!

Good. If everyone is having fun, monk is fine. People should play what they like. If your group, as they play, begin learning what works better in the system, and the monk can't compete with the Druid Bear riding a Bear while summoning Bears, now you know why.

[only1doug]

someone in my group wanted to play a warforged monk, we are using Fax's reboot Monk progression and the Carmadine monk feat.

Still have flurry of misses. (currently L4 though, misses can be expected)

(Known Strikes: flurry of misses, Eye Gouge, Gentle Fist)

[The Precentor]

Whether or not a monk is going to appear weak in a particular campaign really depends on how optimized the rest of the party is. In terms of building a monk, due to them requiring high scores in multiple attributes in order to be good and the class itself having very little flexibility and choice within it (I'm assuming straight monk here), monks made by players of vastly different skill levels are going to come out pretty much the same in terms of power level (or at the very least, far more similar than fighters and wizards built by players of vastly different skill levels). As such, if the rest of the party has very weak optimization skills (say we have a sword and board fighter, a sorcerer who only knows direct damage spells, a cleric that just sits back and heals, and a rogue who is overly specialized in sneaking related stuff), then a monk is going to appear to be alright. When compared to better built (but not ridiculously optimized) parties, the monk is simply going to be useless (even if the monk's player tries to make a really optimized monk). In addition, whether or not the monk appears weak also really depends on what levels you play at. At low levels, everyone has crappy AC and BAB anyways, so the monk's issues there really don't matter too much. However, at higher levels the monk's low BAB, smaller hit dice, and low AC is going to matter a lot more. In addition, the monk's inability to wear armor and use most weapons means that the monk is really going to hurt when it comes to combat capabilities at later levels. Also at higher levels, while the rest of a party glows like a christmas tree due to their magic armor and weapons, the monk will still be walking around with his fists and bare skin, which is essentially the same stuff he has been using since level one. As such, depending on your particular group the monk can seem alright despite having serious power issues.

As to what the monk's actual issues are, they are as follows:
-Multiple Attribute Dependent, other classes need good scores in two attributes in order to be good, which works out well because you're only likely to roll good scores in two attributes. The monk needs good scores in almost everything in order to be good.
-Low BAB, the monk's primary roll is to deal damage in melee combat. The class's low BAB means that it's going to be missing a lot.
-Low Damage Potential, the monk's unarmed strike deals a pitiful amount of damage when compared to what a fighter or barbarian can dish out with a two handed weapon. This is assuming the monk even hits.
-Low AC, being at the front lines means a monk is going to get directly attacked a lot. The monk's low AC means that it's going to be hit a lot.
-Low HP, the monk can't take too many hits, which is problematic when it's going to be hit a lot.
-Limited access to magic weapons and armor, this issue makes all of the previous issues far more severe at higher levels.

Overall, I have the following to say about the monk. As a class, the monk's primary role is to hit dudes in the face from close range and be able to handle getting hit back. Fighters, Barbarians, Paladins, and sometimes Rangers are the other classes from the PHB who have the same role as the monk. Fighters, Barbarians, Paladins, and Rangers are all better at hitting dudes in the face than a monk and handling getting hit back. Honestly, Rogues can generally handle themselves better in melee combat than monks can (especially at higher levels).

[Malevolence]

Hey! It's not Monday! Shouldn't this be a 'why do fighters suck' thread.
But seriously, folks, one thing I give monks is Spring Attack for free for their unarmed strike and Flurry of blows, so that they can actually do what they're suppose to do.

Spring Attack is not that good, particularly at what it is supposed to do.

Are monks weaker with the weapons they're proficient with?

Yes.

A big factor is also ability generation. MAD is really bad in a point-buy system, but potentially less in a rolled one, especially if yu have a generous DM that lets you reroll one stat.

Rolled stats simply means you randomly don't get enough stats, whereas a sufficiently high PB value could give you high enough stats. Good stats alone won't do it though.

[gomipile]

Why do I see Insane Clown Posse singing this thread's title in my mind's eye?


#$%ing Monks, why do they suck? And I don't wanna talk to a rules lawyer!





.....I really need some sleep.

[Amnestic]

#$%ing Monks, why do they suck? And I don't wanna talk to a rules lawyer!

This is one meme I will *never* get tired of.

[Toofey]

Just grandfather in a 1st ed monk. That'll straighten you out.... after about 12 levels.

[Psyren]

#$%ing Monks, why do they suck?

{{scrubbed}}ing Binders, how do they work???

/bandwagon

[Noneoyabizzness]

They suck because tob, battle dancers, 3.5 ninjas, psychic warriors and fighters exist.

All do monkish flavor betterm

[Lateral]

They suck because tob, battle dancers, 3.5 ninjas, psychic warriors and fighters exist.

All do monkish flavor betterm

Well, except ninjas. They suck too.

[Seerow]

Well, except ninjas. They suck too.

So do Fighters, being better than a Monk doesn't mean they don't suck.