Dragon Age II, Part 2: The Qun is pretty deep, you wouldn't understand it.

[Anteros]

Believing in a religion is also a choice. And also one that should not be subjected to persecution in and of itself. Criminal actions, causing harm to others against their will, those are the problem, not what a person knows how to do or believes in.

Zevox

Man, I hate to break it to you...but if you pick up a religion that you gain through consorting directly with a demon, and it involves ritualistic sacrifice of the blood of both yourself and your enemy...you can probably expect to be persecuted. Even by "enlightened" societies.

I think the fact that you can't even become a blood mage without completing an atrociously evil act should tell you something about it. (At least in DA1. I haven't played 2 yet.)

[Craft (Cheese)]

I think the fact that you can't even become a blood mage without completing an atrociously evil act should tell you something about it. (At least in DA1. I haven't played 2 yet.)

DA2 skips the whole part of having to "unlock" specializations and lets you pick them all immediately. Though Anders in DA2 says it's at least possible to become a blood mage without consorting with demons. "It was an accident, right? You cut yourself and realized the power?" Is how I believe the conversation went.

[Dienekes]

Man, I hate to break it to you...but if you pick up a religion that you gain through consorting directly with a demon, and it involves ritualistic sacrifice of the blood of both yourself and your enemy...you can probably expect to be persecuted. Even by "enlightened" societies.

I think the fact that you can't even become a blood mage without completing an atrociously evil act should tell you something about it. (At least in DA1. I haven't played 2 yet.)

DA2 kind of screws with the whole specialization thing. You just sort of pick them it's rather lame really. No mission to learn blood magic in the lap of a demon, no gaining the trust of your allies so they can teach you their secrets, it's just: oh you're level 7 now, pick a specialization!

That and 2 of the 3 Warrior specializations were straight up magic annoys the hell out of me.

[Kish]

"Every blood mage does something atrociously evil" is fifteen kinds of insupportable.

"You, personally, do something evil to become a blood mage in Dragon Age 1, therefore you should take this as a personal message from David Gaider to you that BLOOD MAGIC IS BAD, and such a message is to be swallowed without chewing"...is not an argument I find compelling.

[Arbitrarity]

That and 2 of the 3 Warrior specializations were straight up magic annoys the hell out of me.

I miss Champion. Solid AOE CC and useful sustainables? Sure. Mind you, Berserker and Reaver got much better in DA2, so it wasn't a big mechanical loss (also, other skills cover the Champion skillset), but it was a good theme/concept for a specialization.

[Craft (Cheese)]

I'm still quite curious about the removed specializations from DA2: The Bard, the Archmage, and one other for the Warrior class. I guess we'll never find out now.

[Anteros]

"Every blood mage does something atrociously evil" is fifteen kinds of insupportable.

"You, personally, do something evil to become a blood mage in Dragon Age 1, therefore you should take this as a personal message from David Gaider to you that BLOOD MAGIC IS BAD, and such a message is to be swallowed without chewing"...is not an argument I find compelling.

You're also told over, and over, and over, and over, and over by various mages throughout the entire game that the only way to become one is to consort with a demon. Nevermind the fact that every single blood mage you meet is an absolutely terrible person doing terrible things.

I'm familiar with the concept of unreliable narrators, but eventually the evidence is just overwhelming. Maybe blood magic isn't evil in itself, but the means to attain it are. Thus, blood mages are going to be generally evil, and the stigma is justified.

[Divayth Fyr]

I'm still quite curious about the removed specializations from DA2: The Bard, the Archmage, and one other for the Warrior class. I guess we'll never find out now.

The what? Also, what's curious about that? The team simply didn't bother with creating enough abilities for them ;)

I think the fact that you can't even become a blood mage without completing an atrociously evil act should tell you something about it. (At least in DA1. I haven't played 2 yet.)

An atrouciously evil act, like buying a book in a tavern (see Awakening)? ;P Also, the fact that we have to do it in such a way means little - after all, we are cut off from most sources of potential knowledge available to "normal" (non-warden) mages. Also (IIRC) one can intimidate the demon into leaving and unlock the specialisation at the same time.

You're also told over, and over, and over, and over, and over by various mages throughout the entire game that the only way to become one is to consort with a demon. Nevermind the fact that every single blood mage you meet is an absolutely terrible person doing terrible things.

So, Jowan summoned demons inside the Circle tower to learn these skills? Also - as was mentioned - Anders suggest something different.

[Anteros]

An atrouciously evil act, like buying a book in a tavern (see Awakening)? ;P Also, the fact that we have to do it in such a way means little - after all, we are cut off from most sources of potential knowledge available to "normal" (non-warden) mages. Also (IIRC) one can intimidate the demon into leaving and unlock the specialisation at the same time.


So, Jowan summoned demons inside the Circle tower to learn these skills? Also - as was mentioned - Anders suggest something different.

Buying the books contradicts everything we learned about it to that point. I consider that just the devs being lazy more than anything, but your mileage may vary I guess. Also, I was unaware that it was possible to intimidate the demon into giving you the specialization. Is that really possible?

There is just overwhelming evidence that blood mages are evil. I am aware that there are a few pieces of contradicting evidence like Anders' statement, but it just isn't enough in my mind to make up for all the other damning evidence out there.

To stick with the religious reference...It's like saying that every member of Al Qaeda isn't evil. Sure, there might be individual hold-outs who aren't that bad, but overall...I really shouldn't venture any further into religion or politics on this forum, but you get the idea.

[Arbitrarity]

See: Malcolm Hawke, Merrill, Alain, Jowan, Orsino, Zathrian.

Correlation is not causation. Ask yourself two questions, and consider which has a better answer.

Why does Blood Magic cause mages to be bad?
Why would bad mages use Blood Magic?

[Beowulf DW]

Does power corrupt, or does it simply attract the corruptible?

[Craft (Cheese)]

The what? Also, what's curious about that? The team simply didn't bother with creating enough abilities for them ;)

I'm just curious about what the planned concept was. The other two dummied-out specializations were things that were in DAO: the Archmage was not. Was it just a renaming of the Battlemage from Awakening? Or something completely different?

[Dienekes]

See: Malcolm Hawke, Merrill, Alain, Jowan, Orsino, Zathrian.

Correlation is not causation. Ask yourself two questions, and consider which has a better answer.

Why does Blood Magic cause mages to be bad?
Why would bad mages use Blood Magic?

I think part of the matter is a holdover and disconnect from the first game. Now it's been awhile since I've played through it, but I believe it says flat out you can only learn blood magic from a demon. Now that there is pretty damning evidence. Sure not everyone who worked blood magic was evil, we had Jowan as an example, who instead was just incompetent.

Come second game and suddenly it doesn't need to be and we're given Merrill who seems to be a mixed message on blood magic. On one hand, she isn't evil, on the other hand it still ends in disaster. Personally I think adding her just makes the Templar faction seem worse, and if they really wanted to make the whole templar/mage decision difficult they should have balanced it more in the game. Hell, I stand by and defend the concept of the templars and the necessity of the circle, I still side with the mages every time because in DA2 the whole game feels set up to have Meredith as the big bad.

Also not sure why Orsino, Zathrian, and Alain is on the list. Orsino knowingly helped a serial killer, Zathrian used blood magic as a wild, self-destructive and arguably downright evil curse, and Alain was forced into the whole blood magic thing. That leaves us with Malcolm, Merrill, and Jowan. Two of which are idiots playing with power they believe they can control and end up causing death and destruction around them. And I have no idea how Malcolm Hawke fits into it, don't remember anything about him being a blood mage in the game at all really.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I'm planning to start a fresh playthrough of both games, and I'm trying to decide what Origins character makes the most narrative sense. I'm leaning mostly towards Dalish Elf due to the connections to Merrill.

Human Noble makes a lot of narrative sense, due to the connections with Arl Howe and Nathaniel, as well as the possibility of marrying Alistair.

City Elf works well too as a sort of "history repeating itself" thing, replaying the love story of Katriel and Maric with the female City Elf and Alistair.

Human Mage is always solid due to being related to Hawke.

The Dwarven origins are probably the ones with the least connection to events in Dragon Age II, and there's the fact that none of the romances are that great for them. There's no dwarven romance partner!

[Dienekes]

I'm planning to start a fresh playthrough of both games, and I'm trying to decide what Origins character makes the most narrative sense. I'm leaning mostly towards Dalish Elf due to the connections to Merrill.

Human Noble makes a lot of narrative sense, due to the connections with Arl Howe and Nathaniel, as well as the possibility of marrying Alistair.

City Elf works well too as a sort of "history repeating itself" thing, replaying the love story of Katriel and Maric with the female City Elf and Alistair.

Human Mage is always solid due to being related to Hawke.

The Dwarven origins are probably the ones with the least connection to events in Dragon Age II, and there's the fact that none of the romances are that great for them. There's no dwarven romance partner!

Dwarf noble. Best origin, and what do you mean no romances for them? The chicks dig the dirty bearded midget.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

And I have no idea how Malcolm Hawke fits into it, don't remember anything about him being a blood mage in the game at all really.

In Legacy:

Spoiler

Show

You encounter several demons Malcolm bound to Corypheus' prison to power it, and Malcolm expressed personal distaste for using it, but he made a solemn vow: "My magic will serve what is best in me, not that which is most base." Plus he was under duress as Warden-Commander Larius threatened to hurt Leandra, who was pregnant with Hawke at the time, if Malcolm didn't cooperate. So, yes, Malcolm was technically a blood mage who didn't turn to evil.

[Craft (Cheese)]

I'm planning to start a fresh playthrough of both games, and I'm trying to decide what Origins character makes the most narrative sense. I'm leaning mostly towards Dalish Elf due to the connections to Merrill.

Human Noble makes a lot of narrative sense, due to the connections with Arl Howe and Nathaniel, as well as the possibility of marrying Alistair.

City Elf works well too as a sort of "history repeating itself" thing, replaying the love story of Katriel and Maric with the female City Elf and Alistair.

Human Mage is always solid due to being related to Hawke.

The Dwarven origins are probably the ones with the least connection to events in Dragon Age II, and there's the fact that none of the romances are that great for them. There's no dwarven romance partner!

I played Human Mage with a mod to let me marry Alistair.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Dwarf noble. Best origin, and what do you mean no romances for them? The chicks dig the dirty bearded midget.

They may, but none of them are dwarves, which means no dwarf kids.

I played Human Mage with a mod to let me marry Alistair.

But I do not mod.

[Divayth Fyr]

Buying the books contradicts everything we learned about it to that point. I consider that just the devs being lazy more than anything, but your mileage may vary I guess. Also, I was unaware that it was possible to intimidate the demon into giving you the specialization. Is that really possible?

I haven't played DAO in a while, but it's what I recall. And if I'm reading the wiki correctly, it seems to support that.

There is just overwhelming evidence that blood mages are evil. I am aware that there are a few pieces of contradicting evidence like Anders' statement, but it just isn't enough in my mind to make up for all the other damning evidence out there.

The problem is that the evidence is generally:
- mages staying under Templar jurisdiction (what else could they risk to say?)
- opponents we fight (non-evil blood mages have little reason to meet with us or - if we meet them - say who they are).

To stick with the religious reference...It's like saying that every member of Al Qaeda isn't evil. Sure, there might be individual hold-outs who aren't that bad, but overall...I really shouldn't venture any further into religion or politics on this forum, but you get the idea.

Not a good comparison - all members of Al Qaeda belong to a single organisation which has well known goals and methods of operation. When you join, you do it because you support that. There is no such thing with blood mages.

I'm just curious about what the planned concept was. The other two dummied-out specializations were things that were in DAO: the Archmage was not. Was it just a renaming of the Battlemage from Awakening? Or something completely different?

Sorry - didn't know about that and also failed my reading check - for some reason I thought you thought those were specialisations from DAO which didn't make it into DAII.

Also not sure why Orsino, Zathrian, and Alain is on the list. Orsino knowingly helped a serial killer

Yes - but it could be argued that he did it to protect other mages. For all we know, Meredith could invoke the Right of Annulment the moment she learnt of that fact (just like she orders the mages to be killed for Anders' actions). Also we didn't hear about him abusing (or even using - prior to the very end of the game when the templars forced him to fight for his life) blood magic.

Zathrian used blood magic as a wild, self-destructive and arguably downright evil curse

A single action done in a moment of great pain - one thing in many centuries of life is a sign he was clearly corrupted by the power ;)

and Alain was forced into the whole blood magic thing.

This is true - though wasn't he taught by another mage? That would toss out through the window the whole "must be taught by a demon" stuff.

And I have no idea how Malcolm Hawke fits into it, don't remember anything about him being a blood mage in the game at all really.

It is stated in Legacy he used blood magic to strenghten the seals (that's why Hawke's blood is so important).

[Craft (Cheese)]

They may, but none of them are dwarves, which means no dwarf kids.

According to lore, half-dwarves are possible (unlike half-elves) I think.

But I do not mod.

Suit yourself, but it really is the best of both worlds.

[Dienekes]

They may, but none of them are dwarves, which means no dwarf kids.

So, lots of unprotected lovin' with no nasty surprise. I'm failing to see the downside here.

Yes - but it could be argued that he did it to protect other mages. For all we know, Meredith could invoke the Right of Annulment the moment she learnt of that fact (just like she orders the mages to be killed for Anders' actions). Also we didn't hear about him abusing (or even using - prior to the very end of the game when the templars forced him to fight for his life) blood magic.

How in the name of Andraste's mini-skirt can it be argued that he helped a serial killer he's helping mages? Solution: Go to Hawke, say "**** there's a crazy guy who keeps sending me info on blood magic go check this out!" problem solved. Or hell, talk to Aveline the cop. I also sincerely doubt that Meredith who is admittedly crazy, but at this point semi-reasonable would take a guy saying there's a serial killer on the lose to let's kill all mages. It's not until years later she goes completely nutso. And even then under much worse conditions than this. Hell, he's a powerful mage with permission to leave the building they're all stuck in, go take care of it himself.

A single action done in a moment of great pain - one thing in many centuries of life is a sign he was clearly corrupted by the power ;)

I'm of the opinion that V should be well on the evil side after performing the familicide. Zath did the exact same thing, but instead of killing the victims he turned them into monsters that could lash out against his own people. You can disagree with me on my moral standpoint here, but I doubt you can change them.

This is true - though wasn't he taught by another mage? That would toss out through the window the whole "must be taught by a demon" stuff.

Didn't I discuss how the circumstances to learning blood magic changed between games in that same post?

It is stated in Legacy he used blood magic to strenghten the seals (that's why Hawke's blood is so important).

Yeah, never play DLC don't have the information to comment. Though from what Pally says it seems he was forced into using it.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

According to lore, half-dwarves are possible (unlike half-elves) I think.

They are possible, but think of the scandal that would create for a dwarven noble!

So, lots of unprotected lovin' with no nasty surprise. I'm failing to see the downside here.

But maybe they WANT the nasty surprise? The dwarven race is dying out, they'd need all the kids they can get.

[Craft (Cheese)]

How in the name of Andraste's mini-skirt can it be argued that he helped a serial killer he's helping mages? Solution: Go to Hawke, say "**** there's a crazy guy who keeps sending me info on blood magic go check this out!" problem solved. Or hell, talk to Aveline the cop. I also sincerely doubt that Meredith who is admittedly crazy, but at this point semi-reasonable would take a guy saying there's a serial killer on the lose to let's kill all mages. It's not until years later she goes completely nutso. And even then under much worse conditions than this. Hell, he's a powerful mage with permission to leave the building they're all stuck in, go take care of it himself.

To reinforce this point, in the last cutscene before he kills himself he says something about "Quentin's research." It doesn't sound like this was some random serial killer that he was just covering up: He used the same necromantic magic Quentin used to turn himself into a Harvester. I have a feeling Hawke's mother's murder was sponsored by Orisino.

[Knight13]

According to lore, half-dwarves are possible (unlike half-elves) I think.

Feynriel in DAII is a half-elf, so they're possible. I think they're just rare due to the social divide between humans and elves.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Feynriel in DAII is a half-elf, so they're possible. I think they're just rare due to the social divide between humans and elves.

Only in the sense that his parents were an elf and a human. In terms of race Feynriel IS human. Whenever an elf and human have a kid, human genes are dominant, so the kid's always a human.

[Knight13]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure he had pointy ears.

Edit: Hmm, kinda hard to make out, but they look a bit pointy to me.

[JadedDM]

They may, but none of them are dwarves, which means no dwarf kids.

The dwarf noble can have a kid (if he's male). Mine did. You don't ever actually get to see the child, though you do get to name him. You have to enjoy the company of those two noble hunters at the very beginning of the game. When you return to Orzammar, you have the option of helping get the kid into Harrowmont's or Bhelen's family, making him a noble.

Feynriel in DAII is a half-elf, so they're possible. I think they're just rare due to the social divide between humans and elves.

If you take the novels as canon, then it's heavily implied that Alister is one, too.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

The dwarf noble can have a kid (if he's male). Mine did. You don't ever actually get to see the child, though you do get to name him. You have to enjoy the company of those two noble hunters at the very beginning of the game. When you return to Orzammar, you have the option of helping get the kid into Harrowmont's or Bhelen's family, making him a noble.

Yes, but that's a side-quest, not part of the romance subplots. If I was raised to be a proper dwarf noble, wouldn't I think the idea of falling in love with and sleeping with a human or elf pointless at best or repulsive at worst? And what bearing does it have on future plot points in the sequel (like who Alistair is married to, or the dialogue with Merrill)?

[VanBuren]

Didn't I discuss how the circumstances to learning blood magic changed between games in that same post?

Which is either

A. False; Nothing changed, we just didn't have all the facts

B. True; in which case new canon trumps old canon.

[Zevox]

"Every blood mage does something atrociously evil" is fifteen kinds of insupportable.

"You, personally, do something evil to become a blood mage in Dragon Age 1, therefore you should take this as a personal message from David Gaider to you that BLOOD MAGIC IS BAD, and such a message is to be swallowed without chewing"...is not an argument I find compelling.

Agreed.

You're also told over, and over, and over, and over, and over by various mages throughout the entire game that the only way to become one is to consort with a demon.

And there is evidence against that assertion even from the start of DA:O itself. Jowan is strongly implied to have learned his blood magic from books, which the First Enchanter had since confiscated and was intending to lock safely away.

Nevermind the fact that every single blood mage you meet is an absolutely terrible person doing terrible things.

Jowan and Merrill beg to differ. Not to mention that the blood mages of the Circle in Origins were indicated to have been using their blood magic merely as a means to fight back against the Templars and circle system, until Uldred brought demonic possession into it (whether because he was possessed or because he was insane is unknown).

Also, I was unaware that it was possible to intimidate the demon into giving you the specialization. Is that really possible?

Basically, yes. You can intimidate the Demon in order to both get the specialization and prevent her from returning to Conner later.

That leaves us with Malcolm, Merrill, and Jowan. Two of which are idiots playing with power they believe they can control and end up causing death and destruction around them.

Not the case at all. As I said earlier, the tragedy in Merrill's story is a result of how others react to her, not anything she ever does. And Jowan is guilty only of poisoning Arle Howe, which was a crime and an error in judgment on his part to be sure, but had nothing to do with his blood magic (aside from the probability that he accepted Loghain's request in this regard partially or primarily as a way to escape execution by the Templars).

Zevox