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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default This comic is barely D&D related anymore

    I started reading this comic because it was about D&D, and I'm sure the majority of readers did so for the same reason. While I have nothing against a story driven webcomic, the Giant would do well to remember his niche. I don't think we've had a single D&D related joke since the cat killed a commoner about 50 strips ago.

    The worst part is that the Giant is actually proud of this. On the kickstarter page, he boasts that "the gaming references [are] virtually unnoticeable". One of his recent newsposts reveals that he "barely even reference[s] the 3.5 rules anymore". Sometimes I wonder if he wishes he never used the D&D framework in the first place.

    There are countless generic fantasy webcomics, but this is the only one about D&D. Please Rich, don't lose sight of what made OotS truly remarkable.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: This comic is barely D&D related anymore

    Quote Originally Posted by Ancano View Post
    Please Rich, don't lose sight of what made OotS truly remarkable.
    What, like beautiful, unique art, amazing writing, a gripping story with believable and varied characters, and genuine comedy?

    There's loads of DnD comics. What makes OoTs special is not that.
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    Default Re: This comic is barely D&D related anymore

    What makes OOTS truly remarkable is the storytelling, characters and deceptively simple art, not jokes about d20s and skill points.
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    Default Re: This comic is barely D&D related anymore

    Quote Originally Posted by Ancano View Post
    I don't think we've had a single D&D related joke since the cat killed a commoner about 50 strips ago.
    Not a joke, but the current (829) strip does have a dnd reference with the different schools of magic, so I would say that dnd is alive and well in the comic.

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    Default Re: This comic is barely D&D related anymore

    Quote Originally Posted by Ancano View Post
    The worst part is that the Giant is actually proud of this.
    This is because, as he has said before, his comic can be funny and interesting for people who have next to no D&D background. For me, the D&D references that filled the first 40 comics or so were fun, but only because I was just learning about D&D at the time. It was more funny because I got the reference than because the joke was... a joke.

    Now, while I still appreciate the odd reference here and there, it's the characters and story that interest me. I'd rather have a three-dimensional character that I can understand and (in some cases) empathize with than a purely two-dimensional character cover the intricacies of D&D rules humorously for several (going on 8 or 9?) years.

    Also, there are only so many times you can make the "Hey, isn't this rule weird?" joke, and that number is nowhere near as high as 829.

    Edit: Typo.
    Last edited by Forealms; 2012-01-22 at 11:30 PM.
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    Default Re: This comic is barely D&D related anymore

    Quote Originally Posted by Ancano View Post
    I started reading this comic because it was about D&D, and I'm sure the majority of readers did so for the same reason. While I have nothing against a story driven webcomic, the Giant would do well to remember his niche. I don't think we've had a single D&D related joke since the cat killed a commoner about 50 strips ago.

    The worst part is that the Giant is actually proud of this. On the kickstarter page, he boasts that "the gaming references [are] virtually unnoticeable". One of his recent newsposts reveals that he "barely even reference[s] the 3.5 rules anymore". Sometimes I wonder if he wishes he never used the D&D framework in the first place.

    There are countless generic fantasy webcomics, but this is the only one about D&D. Please Rich, don't lose sight of what made OotS truly remarkable.
    Ancano, you're entitled to your opinion, but it's seriously in the minority around here. Many of us like D&D, true, but we get D&D rules in our regular sessions*--we come here for the gripping story, characterizations, and comedy. It's cool because it's in a D&D world, but that doesn't mean it has to be all about D&D. That would be sort of like an alien making a comic about life on Earth, and all the jokes are "HA HA, I FORGOT I WAS DEATHLY ALLERGIC TO OXYGEN ERRRRKKK" or "LIKE, BLUE SKY, MAN, CAN YOU BELIEVE IT?"


    *(those of us that have regular sessions )

    Quote Originally Posted by MoonCat View Post
    What, like beautiful, unique art, amazing writing, a gripping story with believable and varied characters, and genuine comedy?

    There's loads of DnD comics. What makes OoTs special is not that.
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  7. - Top - End - #7
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    Default Re: This comic is barely D&D related anymore

    Quote Originally Posted by Ancano View Post
    I started reading this comic because it was about D&D, and I'm sure the majority of readers did so for the same reason. While I have nothing against a story driven webcomic, the Giant would do well to remember his niche. I don't think we've had a single D&D related joke since the cat killed a commoner about 50 strips ago.

    The worst part is that the Giant is actually proud of this. On the kickstarter page, he boasts that "the gaming references [are] virtually unnoticeable". One of his recent newsposts reveals that he "barely even reference[s] the 3.5 rules anymore". Sometimes I wonder if he wishes he never used the D&D framework in the first place.

    There are countless generic fantasy webcomics, but this is the only one about D&D. Please Rich, don't lose sight of what made OotS truly remarkable.
    While I doubt anyone needs me to echo the already expressed sentiments about what actually makes this comic special that other responders have, allow me to point out that the entire last few comics revolved around D&D elements, including: A high-level cleric casting Implosion on people and the running gag of Red Cloak summoning elementals that are the wrong kind of "element".

    It's not like the D&D stuff suddenly vanishes when we aren't having every comic end with a punchline about it. This comic is very clearly set in a D&D setting.

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    Default Re: This comic is barely D&D related anymore

    Quote Originally Posted by OrzhvoPatriarch View Post
    Not a joke, but the current (829) strip does have a dnd reference with the different schools of magic, so I would say that dnd is alive and well in the comic.
    And actually, there's been quite a few people in the discussion thread that were confused by that part. OOTS has long since gone beyond a D&D focus, and I feel it's the better for it.

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    Default Re: This comic is barely D&D related anymore

    I agree with Arcano completely. Less Plot more Spot check jokes (Sorry it was the best I could do at such short notice.)

    Also /sarcasm.
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  10. - Top - End - #10
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    Default Re: This comic is barely D&D related anymore

    Ancano, you're certainly entitled to your opinion, but I have to tell you that you are going to continue to be disappointed. I have virtually no interest in spending time spoofing the D&D rules anymore, especially since the rules the comic originally ran on were superseded years ago (and stand to be superseded again next year by 5th Edition). It simply doesn't interest me as a creator anymore; I have nothing left to say about it.

    Basically, it comes down to a choice between moving OOTS away from D&D jokes, or ending OOTS and starting something different altogether. I'm not done with these characters yet, so I chose the former. But bringing back more tired jokes about skill points or feats or whatever is simply not in the cards. I did that, for a long time. I'm doing something else now. I'm sorry if you don't like it anymore, but there are plenty of people who do, so I'll write it for them.

    As far as wishing I had never used the D&D rules, I can't say that, because it was a major reason I broke out of the pack of webcomics. But the truth is that almost everyone who has ever played 3.5 D&D has heard of the Order of the Stick already. Expanding to find new readers means going beyond that base, and the heavy rules emphasis in the early strips is a barrier for anyone not already playing the game. There's a fine line between a niche and a pigeonhole, after all.
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  11. - Top - End - #11
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: This comic is barely D&D related anymore

    I should probably elaborate on my first comment now that the headdesking has stopped.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ancano View Post
    I started reading this comic because it was about D&D, and I'm sure the majority of readers did so for the same reason. While I have nothing against a story driven webcomic, the Giant would do well to remember his niche. I don't think we've had a single D&D related joke since the cat killed a commoner about 50 strips ago.
    So according to you, gag-a-day strips are better than ones with plot. Okay, that's a matter of opinion, albeit one that would be more appropriate for readers of Garfield. But assigning a niche to a story that is not that, and then criticizing the author for not filling it is just ludicrous.

    The worst part is that the Giant is actually proud of this. On the kickstarter page, he boasts that "the gaming references [are] virtually unnoticeable". One of his recent newsposts reveals that he "barely even reference[s] the 3.5 rules anymore". Sometimes I wonder if he wishes he never used the D&D framework in the first place.
    How is it bad that a writer is proud he's gone beyond mere jokes and become a good storyteller? (Not that I'm saying he wasn't before, but that he wasn't using it before OoTs started gaining a story). On the kickstarter page is a 'boast' that it's more accessible for everyone. (For the record, I didn't play DnD until after I began reading OoTS, and if it had been eternal DnD jokes I probably would've quit. Even at the beginning many of the jokes were the character personalities, which was what got me at least through the stuff I didn't quite get.) About his newspost, firstly, it's not revealing something, you can tell he barely references the rules by reading the freaking comic. Secondly, not referencing the rules every single strip does not mean he's abandoning or has abandoned the DnD framework. Sheesh.

    There are countless generic fantasy webcomics, but this is the only one about D&D. Please Rich, don't lose sight of what made OotS truly remarkable.
    There are also plenty of generic DnD comics. And other types of gaming comics. And stick figure comics. Everything is generic eventually. What makes something stand out even though there are others is because it's done well, with story. Even good art isn't enough, it takes good writing. Sure, you can prefer old repeated jokes with uninteresting characters like OoTS would have become if Mr Burlew had never changed it. but you will find yourself in the minority, and you will find it harder to find 'good' comics as more people catch onto the idea of being interesting over being repetitive.

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  12. - Top - End - #12
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: This comic is barely D&D related anymore

    The thing is, I might agree with you if OotS had gone from a gag a day strip about D&D to a gag a day strip about... I dunno, llamas, but it didn't. It went from a gag a day strip set in a D&D world to a completely differnt kind of webcomic, namely one with actual characters and plot. The fact that it has 3.5 as a backdrop is still there though. I still find it interesting to be able to figure out the abilitys of the characters, or how specific monsters work, but that is really secondary to the story. Basically, you get a great story, and D&D "jokes" in one strip. Admittedly, the jokes aren't always punch lines, but they are still there. It seems like what you really don't like is that Rich prefers to have an awesome story over mindless comedy. If that's what you want, try Nodwick. Try 8 bit theater. There are countless comics that have random gaming related jokes. Thankfully, OotS is not one of them (anymore).
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  13. - Top - End - #13
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    Default Re: This comic is barely D&D related anymore

    Quote Originally Posted by MoonCat View Post
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    I'm always ready to give MoonCat cookies!
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    Default Re: This comic is barely D&D related anymore

    Everything I've ever known about DnD, I learned from Oots.

    It doesn't bother me that I don't play, though. I could get through the jokes because I could sort of understand the context or I could just ask someone. But I too have to say I'm glad Rich is starting to take a different approach and focus more on the character developments and plot.

    These characters were, to me, in the beginning nothing more than funny adventurers trying to beat a funny villain. Now however, they are so much more. Sure I can still laugh at them, but now I find myself feeling sorry for V, the funny guy who cast funny spells at the chimera, and being terrified at Xykon, the guy who couldn't find his keys.

    The same with the plot. In the beginning, it was a fun, mildly engaging adventure story. It has now envolved into so much more, and I often find myself just sitting down and speculating for a few minutes after reading the latest strip. It speaks to me now more than it ever did, and could, as a comic about DnD.

    The are plenty of generic comics, I can definitely agree with that. Oots is not one of them.
    Last edited by Cizak; 2012-01-23 at 01:37 AM.
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: This comic is barely D&D related anymore

    Well I did started reading the comic because it was about D&D, and the jokes were great :

    -I GOT A 4!
    -I am failing my Listen checks on purpose.

    Then when I realized how massive OOTS really was, as in how many followers The Giant has, I understood the transformation of the comic.
    At first it was a good/decent story about an adventuring party going into a dungeon, you know stereotypical stuff BUT with great jokes.
    Then as the jokes decreased (well not really) the story became deep and interesting when The Giant introduced the Sapphire Guard and all the Crayon stuff and the Snarl.
    Also, Start of Darkness.

    So after that, I could understand and accept the trade off of less D&D jokes for an amazing story with amazing characters.
    Seriously, I have many books to read but Tarquin is such a great character, probably one of the best fantasy characters I have ever seen, despite his ''comedy'' nature.

    Probably the comic doesn't make me laugh like a maniac like it used to but frankly I like it more now, cause the story is so amazing, and joke or not it is always good to read OOTS.
    Last edited by Zonack; 2012-01-23 at 02:55 AM.

  16. - Top - End - #16
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    Default Re: This comic is barely D&D related anymore

    Quote Originally Posted by Zonack View Post
    Well I did started reading the comic because it was about D&D, and the jokes were great :

    -I GOT A 4!
    -I am failing my Listen checks on purpose.

    Then when I realized how massive OOTS really was, as in how many followers The Giant has, I understood the transformation of the comic.
    At first it was a good/decent story about an adventuring party going into a dungeon, you know stereotypical stuff BUT with great jokes.
    Then as the jokes decreased (well not really) the story became deep and interesting when The Giant introduced the Sapphire Guard and all the Crayon stuff and the Snarl.
    Also, Start of Darkness.

    So after that, I could understand and accept the trade off of less D&D jokes for an amazing story with amazing characters.
    Seriously, I have many books to read but Tarquin is such a great character, probably one of the best fantasy characters I have ever seen, despite his ''comedy'' nature.

    Probably the comic doesn't make me laugh like a maniac like it used to but frankly I like it more now, cause the story is so amazing, and joke or not it is always good to read OOTS.
    You know, the whole comic is rather like a great D&D campaign--you start out getting familiar with the rules, having some pretty easy fights, you know; then as it goes on, you really get into the story, it becomes ever more plot-driven, and the rules are just part of the background as you hurtle towards the smashing climax.
    Quote Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling View Post
    Attempting to use Iron Heart Surge can often lead to the player removing the 'not being beaten upside the head' condition.
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  17. - Top - End - #17
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: This comic is barely D&D related anymore

    Though any other D & D comic seems to slide away from those jokes after a while. Look at Yamara, those who know what it is. Punchlines went from "Fighter/Thief " to rather silly, like a villain not paying her rent to the absurd like those Hooded Guys
    Looking for Group never had any jokes about WoW (That i noticed, and i don't play so maybe there was some) even though it was clearly set in that world.
    And like what other people have said, D & D informs the comic in a huge way. Gamers would've been a lot more affected when Redcloak got Implosion. I mean to someone who doesn't know the rules it doesn't seem more powerful than when RC destroyed the cleric in Azure City. Non-gamers would've picked up on something being different cos of the two panel focus on a single spell maybe, but Gamers got it more quickly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flame of Anor View Post
    You know, the whole comic is rather like a great D&D campaign--you start out getting familiar with the rules, having some pretty easy fights, you know; then as it goes on, you really get into the story, it becomes ever more plot-driven, and the rules are just part of the background as you hurtle towards the smashing climax.
    Talk about Fridge Brilliance. Have a Secret Fire Cookie, Flame of Anor
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    ElfRangerGuy

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    Default Re: This comic is barely D&D related anymore

    Quote Originally Posted by Flame of Anor View Post
    You know, the whole comic is rather like a great D&D campaign--you start out getting familiar with the rules, having some pretty easy fights, you know; then as it goes on, you really get into the story, it becomes ever more plot-driven, and the rules are just part of the background as you hurtle towards the smashing climax.
    I just wanted to say that this is the best description I have ever read about anything ever.
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    Default Re: This comic is barely D&D related anymore

    Quote Originally Posted by Lvl45DM! View Post
    Talk about Fridge Brilliance. Have a Secret Fire Cookie, Flame of Anor
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    Quote Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling View Post
    Attempting to use Iron Heart Surge can often lead to the player removing the 'not being beaten upside the head' condition.
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    Default Re: This comic is barely D&D related anymore

    Quote Originally Posted by Ancano View Post
    Please Rich, don't lose sight of what made OotS truly remarkable.
    He hasn't. That would be the humor and storytelling, which are still going strong today.

    Yes, the comic transitioned away from D&D rules-based jokes long ago. This is pretty much because it had to. There are only so many of those that you can make, and the comic would've died long before now if the Giant never shifted his focus from the way the comic was written for the first 100 strips or so, simply due to running out of material.

    Instead, we're getting a well-told fantasy epic, featuring a cadre of developed characters, a lot of mystery and plot twists, a lot of humor, a near-nonexistant fourth wall, and all set in a world that still operates on D&D rules even if most of the jokes aren't about that anymore. Speaking for myself, I'll take that, thank you very much.

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    Default Re: This comic is barely D&D related anymore

    I am more of a CRPG d&d player much more than a PnP d&d player,

    but honestly OotS provides me a great story to read about when almost every CRPG and most DM's failed to deliver.

    I only go back to my old CD's of Baldur's Gate or Neverwinter Nights when something really interesting happens in OotS.

    When I play an RPG I am mostly interested in the story rather than the rules, I love it when DM's bend the rules to surprise us just to deliver an amazing story, does not the name FANTASY role playing game speak for itself, it is a story with characters the rules are just there as guidelines personally I think that they are the most boring aspect of RPGs.

    I enjoy the d&d world, OotS on the other hand uses it to deliver a very interesting story and that is why I love OotS.

    thanks for reading

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    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: This comic is barely D&D related anymore

    Quote Originally Posted by Flame of Anor View Post
    You know, the whole comic is rather like a great D&D campaign--you start out getting familiar with the rules, having some pretty easy fights, you know; then as it goes on, you really get into the story, it becomes ever more plot-driven, and the rules are just part of the background as you hurtle towards the smashing climax.
    You know, I've actually seen this idea mentioned before somewhere, but I still really like it.

    Gamers would've been a lot more affected when Redcloak got Implosion. I mean to someone who doesn't know the rules it doesn't seem more powerful than when RC destroyed the cleric in Azure City. Non-gamers would've picked up on something being different cos of the two panel focus on a single spell maybe, but Gamers got it more quickly.
    I agree with your post in general, but I'd quibble with this part. Implosion is just aesthetically nastier, even in stick-art, and the visceral nature of it helps contribute to that strip's message (Redcloak is a very dangerous individual in his own right) whether you're familiar with the rule details or not.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: This comic is barely D&D related anymore

    As one of the many readers who has never read DnD, I am extremely glad that this comic has went from a funny, entertaining gag-a-day ramble to a funny, entertaining epic story with deep, interesting characters and a fantastic plot.

    Sure, I could get the DnD jokes, because I have some passing understanding about how DnD works, and what a skill checks.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: This comic is barely D&D related anymore

    Redcloak's reference to gaining a new level of spells and the bearded devils are two recent references to D&D. It hasn't gone away. The story comes first and that is fine with me, but the setting remains a world in which the D&D (3.5) rules apply and that gives good support to the story.

    I do disagree about 4e superseding 3.5. Whilst WotC probably wished for that to happen, instead it has split the players. That is still a good reason to put less emphasis on the rules.

  25. - Top - End - #25
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    Griffon

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    Default Re: This comic is barely D&D related anymore

    I don't particularly like dnd. Just saying, we've had people saying they're oots fans but don't know much about dnd so I just figured I should speak up for the oots fans who know enough about dnd to know it's not the game system for them.

    Hi.

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    Default Re: This comic is barely D&D related anymore

    This webcomic is still D&D related. It's just not D&D gaming rules related anymore. They still use in-world expressions (and a few rules terms once in a while), and this is tottally D&D based. He just left the one-page gags with the rules behind to make an actual plot. I don't see what's wrong with it.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Re: This comic is barely D&D related anymore

    I started reading Order of the Stick several years ago (can't remember why, it was back when Haley still talked funny), and I've played about 2 games of D&D in my life. My girlfriend has never played D&D.

    When she became pregnant, I gave her with a Thog baby bodysuit. She was delighted because she loves Thog (also cuddles and ice-cream).

    Pretty sure I wouldn't have had that reaction from "Your d12 cries itself to sleep at night"
    Last edited by deworde; 2012-01-23 at 06:05 AM.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: This comic is barely D&D related anymore

    I think it is a pretty cool accomplishment to wind up with such a hefty number of fans outside of that fanbase. That indicates having major skill at plotting and characterization, being able to appeal to people not just by appealing to their love of another work, but through your own power. Shame or regret need not enter into it.

    (Anyway personally I started reading the comic because TVTropes links to it incessantly and I had to come over and see what the big deal was. I wound up reading quite a number of then-current strips before going back and doing the archive binge--if they'd all been like #1, I would have just been bored and confused. I'm hardly the only person who didn't get into it via D&D-love--heck I'm hardly the only person who found it specifically through Tropes...)
    Last edited by B. Dandelion; 2012-01-23 at 06:22 AM.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    ref's Avatar

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    Default Re: This comic is barely D&D related anymore

    Which makes me wonder, if Rich had to start OotS today, with the knowledge of how much it has grown, would he do anything different for those first handful of strips? (I mean, substantially different, not details like "well, they'd be 4e characters).
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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Chimera

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    smile Re: This comic is barely D&D related anymore

    I am giant fan of this series, including the last 100 strips, and the 100 before that, etc, and I just thought I'd say I love the D&D that is still mixed into basically everything.

    Not that the plot and characters aren't fantastic, but the D&D rules that are still referenced quite often give interaction a structure that I enjoy. If this wasn't D&D-based, the last strip wouldn't have made any sense. Conjuration subschools having only teleportation magic? Presumably there would just be "magic". It would all just be funny latin names and bad-guy wizards that were "more powerful than anyone" until suddenly they weren't.

    D&D rules force the writer to have some discipline. It helps not make some of the more irritating mistakes in a fantasy setting, such as extremely convenient magic that does whatever is needed, and inconsistent fantasy-world rules whose details save the heroes at the last minute.

    Also, I think there are plenty of D&D jokes left. MITD made one about push/pulling in the last Evil arc...

    So I'm going to presume that Rich finds that stuff just mostly uninteresting now and not completely uninteresting.

    Nothing wrong with the guy expressing his opinion, though.

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