[Pathfinder] How much should feats cost?

[Jane_Smith]

In a game I am running I am planning to allow the player's access to a very large organizations "special training" services and tutoring. This special tutelage can last from 1-7 weeks based on the type of feat they are training to learn and I was considering making it cost anywhere from 50 to 500 gold per training session.

Feats available would be any item creation feat, skill focus, weapon focus, great fortitude, iron will, lightning reflexes, endurance, toughness, any teamwork feat (all members getting it have to pay and be at each training session), improved familiar, etc. As the perform more duties for this organization and there reputation and ranks go up, the selection of feats they can train will also go up - they might even be able to learn some racial traits or special abilities like a dwarfs ability to wear heavy or medium armor without lowering there movement speed or becoming encumbered.

I was hoping that there might be some kind of existing chart or guide to show the general values of feats and there value, considering not all feats are created equal. Any tips?

[motionmatrix]

The easiest way is to figure out minimum level to take the feat and do it based on minimum level. The logic being higher level costs more since it is more difficult and there are less trainers.

I would then add a "book tax" based on how far removed from the corebook the feat comes from. Bestiary and gamemastery guide (if there are feats) might be 20 extra gold. Advanced player's guide and advanced races guide 30 gold. Etc.

[Jane_Smith]

The book tax would not work for my group - we just use whats on the srd, so I am not gonna scrounge up an excuse to make them pay 20-30 gold based on the "source tag" of the selected feat.

[wadledo]

I would go flat 2000 gold, since the 2000 Gold feat from D&D 3.5 Complete Scoundrel is seen as good but not needed for every character ever.

Any chart with feat values would be terribly skewed, especially given pathfinder.

[Jane_Smith]

Well I mean "Craft Wonderous Items" would obviously cost like 400 gold a week for like 5 weeks but "Iron Will" would only be like 150 gold a week for 3 weeks to make up for the vast difference in strength. At least a point value of the strength of the feats in a chart would be nice to give a rough guideline you know?

[watchwood]

True. On the other hand, a +2 untype bonus to a saving throw isn't all that minor an effect either. Especially given that it stacks with all other bonuses to will saves. It's just not that good compared to a lot of other saves.

I think 2000 GP would probably be a bit on the low side for extra feats (especially at higher levels where that kind of gold becomes pocket change for a player). Adding a major time investment is a good step towards limiting this, especially if there's time-critical events going on in the plot of the campaign. Forcing players to choose between training and solving their problems before the end of the world is a good step.

What I would do is charge players 2000 gp and 4 weeks of training time for the first purchased feat, and add an extra week and 1000 GP to the price for every purchased feat after that. While some feats are naturally more powerful then that, adding a scaling price will force players to economize their time and money into getting the best feats available to them - the end result won't be a lot different.

If you feel a given feat is especially under or over powered, you could certainly alter the price for a feat. I wouldn't take it any more then +/- 25% though, and even that in the most extreme of cases. Like Leadership.

[Jane_Smith]

Oh hell no, leadership is not a feat for ANY of my games. Its a hidden stat based on there renown and deeds - no player can just say hur dur i leveled up give me 200 followers. x_x

[silphael]

I disagree with Watchwood about the bonus to saves, but not about the price. It is a fine price: 2 000 GP are, at low level, high enough to not be easy money, and low enough to not be a "ho come on! It can't be so expensive!".

But I will say something like 1 000 GP. The characters that use the most feats will need this... Keep in mind that they have to keep the rest of their equipment high enough too.

[LordErebus12]

with the restriction that you must qualify for all the prerequisites to gain the feat:

id say 2000 gp per feat. with additional feats increasing the cost much like magical weapons increase cost. 2k ,8k, 18k, etc.

if the additional feats require a prerequisite feat that it also grants, then the entire cost should increase by 20%, with this increasing by 20% for each time it happens.

lets use dodge feat progression as our example.

dodge: 2000 gp.
dodge and mobility: 9600 gp (8000 times 20% because it grants its own prerequisites)
dodge, mobility and spring attack: 25200 gp (18000 for three feats, times 40% because it grants its own prerequisites twice)

meanwhile
dodge and weapon finesse: 8000 gp

[Jane_Smith]

I do not like the idea of scaling "all feats" as a giant ball of cost that sky rockets after the first few. Though I do like the idea of it scaling based on prerequisites. Feats that have no requirements should be easy and only require 2-5 weeks to learn for anyone and around the same cost, but ones with hefty prerequisites like a high base attack bonus, ability scores, skill ranks, etc should reflect that more specialized training required.

So maybe all feats cost 2k, ability scores x 100 (15 str = +1500 gp?), bab x 100, skill ranks x 50, spellcasting or required spell level x 200, other feats x4 (multiply for each previous prerequisite feat, so dodge and mobility for spring attack is x8 the normal cost). Just as a general idea hows this?

This way the weaker feats like weapon focus, etc, still remain in the 2100ish region, even if you learn 10 or so weapons for it. (No idea why someone would do that, but thats there choice to do so and they should be able to do it).

[Jane_Smith]

Oh, however I was considering making the pc's have to go threw a full theme before they can train in a different theme of feats. Perhaps that might help? I got the idea from a series of books called "Path of Magic and Path of the Sword" from legends and lairs. They give many sample schools/orders/organizations someone can pay for lessens, and there is 10 lessens to complete to become a master of that discipline/theme.

For example, Order of Illianel, lesson 1 - you learn to "charge" your attack for a long period of time before hitting the perfect strike. Every round you take the total defense action, you gain a +1 attack and damage bonus on your next attack, to a maximum bonus of your character level.

Lesson 2 gives you a +1 damage to melee attacks passively, and makes concentration a class skill (as being damaged when charging an attack can disrupt it without a conc check).

Lesson 3 lets your charged attack possibly stun.

Lesson 4 knocks them back as if a bullrush hit them on the power attack.

Lesson 5 allows all your attacks for 1 round gain the bonus attack/damage benefit, not just the first.

Lesson 6 allows them to fire two arrows per attack with a bow (seems kinda odd).

Lesson 7 allows you to throw a melee weapon as a thrown weapon with no penalty and gain your charge up bonus to the attack.

Lesson 8 you can grab and throw an OPPONENT with the charge up bonus up to 5 ft. + 5 ft. per str bonus.

Lesson 9 you gain +2 attack/damage per round charging up.

Lesson 10 you can, 3/day, perform a charge attack with a full attack - so long as they are charged up with up to a +4 bonus, that provides also the bullrush/etc effects.

Well, thats the rough translation of what it gives. Each lesson has its own level requirement - if you try to learn the lesson before your ready it costs 20% more. And these cost exp AND gold AND time, so are not taken lightly. But its a bit to far extreme for what I was aiming for! :P

I was considering "themes" like they have to learn small trees before they can learn any other feat from training; but they can do so in any order.

Defense: Endurance, Toughness, Diehard
Offensive: Weapon Focus, Quick Draw, Power Attack
Utility: Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Great Fortitude

Etc.

[wadledo]

As a thought, if the only feats you are allowing with this are generally bad feats (Toughness, Greater Fortitude, Skill Focus, etc.), then 2000 per pop seems pretty fair.

Also, the lesson paths seem good, but to good for a buy and use format.
I would consider making it a standard feat you can get with your normal feats, and then require additional lessons to unlock further, like weapons of legacy.

[silphael]

For the lessons, imo you should make it in the form of a feat with "at level x you get [insert ability here]. If you are level X+N, you get [new ability] in addition". Without it, you are staying with why casters are usually better: feat are far weaker than spells, and that shouldn't be...

[LordErebus12]

I do not like the idea of scaling "all feats" as a giant ball of cost that sky rockets after the first few. Though I do like the idea of it scaling based on prerequisites. Feats that have no requirements should be easy and only require 2-5 weeks to learn for anyone and around the same cost, but ones with hefty prerequisites like a high base attack bonus, ability scores, skill ranks, etc should reflect that more specialized training required.

So maybe all feats cost 2k, ability scores x 100 (15 str = +1500 gp?), bab x 100, skill ranks x 50, spellcasting or required spell level x 200, other feats x4 (multiply for each previous prerequisite feat, so dodge and mobility for spring attack is x8 the normal cost). Just as a general idea hows this?

This way the weaker feats like weapon focus, etc, still remain in the 2100ish region, even if you learn 10 or so weapons for it. (No idea why someone would do that, but thats there choice to do so and they should be able to do it).

i agree with this

[silphael]

The feats with the most prerequisites are often extremly weak, like the end of those monk feat chains...

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

I would work out a "prestige point" system, where doing quests or spending resources on the organization gives the player prestige points which they can spend on gear, skill points, feats, spells, services, hirelings, etc. I believe that the 3.5 Player's Handbook 2 had a similar setup for organizations.