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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable.

    Unless your opponent is armed with a bouncy rubber ball.

    Soon certainly didn't think that one through, that's for sure! You'd think the guy would have known about his own class's will saves better.

    On that note, can someone tell me why a class based around religious devotees to extreme causes and super strict honor and discipline codes has such crappy will saves? D&D must have some pretty poorly thought out game mechanics if a class specifically devoted to honor, loyalty, faith, and discipline gets swayed so easily by symbols. In fact, I think a better punchline for the Saphire slaughter strip would have been Xykon saying "It's almost like the universe is trying to force some form of arbitrary balance between those who can bend reality to their will and those who can not, but FAILED MISERABLY!"
    Last edited by TiamatRoar; 2007-05-05 at 12:22 PM.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable.

    Paladins are supposed to have high saving throws. They have all around even stats and they get to add their charisma to all their saves.

    If you are outclassed, though, you are outclassed. Xykon was just way too high level.
    Last edited by bluish_wolf; 2007-05-05 at 12:40 PM.

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    Default Re: Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable.

    You have to willingly commit acts against the Code or for Evil to Fall.

    The suicide in this case traces to Japanese honour, which I've never really understood entirely. But I'm fairly certain she was wrong to kill herself right there. Her first task was to guard the gate, so she should have used her moment of lucidity to attack Xykon. Then, once she had won, she then kills herself to regain the honour she lost in attacking her allies.

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    Default Re: Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kreistor View Post
    You have to willingly commit acts against the Code or for Evil to Fall.

    The suicide in this case traces to Japanese honour, which I've never really understood entirely. But I'm fairly certain she was wrong to kill herself right there. Her first task was to guard the gate, so she should have used her moment of lucidity to attack Xykon. Then, once she had won, she then kills herself to regain the honour she lost in attacking her allies.

    Yeah, the whole, "killing-yourself-so-you-don't-get-captured," is a lot less meaningful when your corpse could be animated and your shade can be talked to. Necromancy just screws everything up.
    Last edited by bluish_wolf; 2007-05-05 at 12:45 PM.

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    Default Re: Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable.

    Yeah, the whole, "killing-yourself-so-you-don't-get-captured," is a lot less meaningful when your corpse could be animated and your shade can be talked to. Necromancy just screws everything up.
    Ya i agree.

    While most PC paladins do have rather good saves overall but these where NPC paladins so even with charmisa bounus to saves they had little no chance a making these saves vs a lvl 20 lich, they had lost before that battle began.

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    Default Re: Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable.

    Quote Originally Posted by TiamatRoar View Post
    ...
    On that note, can someone tell me why a class based around religious devotees to extreme causes and super strict honor and discipline codes has such crappy will saves?
    Paladin is a offset of the Fighter class and so it inherited the Fighter class good saving throw being a fortitude save.

    Divine Grace allows paladins to add their Charisma bonus to all saving throws , since Paladins also can have access to divine spells they end up making up for their poor will saves progression table with their stats bonus, the only save they will likely have poor is their reflex save since they have no much reason to have much of a dexterity.

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    Default Re: Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable.

    Quote Originally Posted by TiamatRoar View Post
    On that note, can someone tell me why a class based around religious devotees to extreme causes and super strict honor and discipline codes has such crappy will saves? D&D must have some pretty poorly thought out game mechanics if a class specifically devoted to honor, loyalty, faith, and discipline gets swayed so easily by symbols.
    Amen to that. I've always thought that was stupid. Paladins should have the [I]highest[I] will saves of any class, I think, or at least their will saves should follow the "good" progression. Maybe they'll change that in 4th edition.
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    Default Re: Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable.

    Quote Originally Posted by TiamatRoar View Post
    On that note, can someone tell me why a class based around religious devotees to extreme causes and super strict honor and discipline codes has such crappy will saves?
    And incredibly low INT scores.

    The SG is, character for character, the stupidest group of paladins you're ever likely to encounter.

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    Default Re: Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable.

    Yeah, I always found that to be a little weird. And since we're on the subject, I think there's a few other things that paladins should have. Zone of truth ought to be added to their spell list and they should have the Gather Information and Sense Motive skills as class skills. They are supposed to be able to hunt down evil but be merciful and careful about who they strike down. It strikes me as odd that they don't have the spells and skills to do this properly.

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    Default Re: Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable.

    Erm... they're not supposed to be invincible unkillable machines; If they had high will save, Xykon simply would've used something requiring reflex save. Frankly, it doesn't matter what he would've used - someone would whine about it. Reflex? Hey, they're warriors, with lots of exercise, using two blades, they should've got nice DEX. Fortitude? How about... Well, you got the picture. Everyone has at least 1-2 dump stats, unless someone cheated when they rolled character. They're just warriors with a bit of their god's blessing, not terminators.

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    Default Re: Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kreistor View Post
    The suicide in this case traces to Japanese honour, which I've never really understood entirely. But I'm fairly certain she was wrong to kill herself right there. Her first task was to guard the gate, so she should have used her moment of lucidity to attack Xykon. Then, once she had won, she then kills herself to regain the honour she lost in attacking her allies.
    Yes, I'm fairly certain she was quite capable of logical thought in the six seconds of normal thinking she had after killing her compatriots.

    By the way, she couldn't have won against Xykon. He'd have just laughed and cast another spell to finish her off. He totally outclasses everyone. On top of that, she's only got a fifty-fifty chance of being able to attack him at all (30% chance to just babble randomly and 20% chance to run away) until Xykon actively attacks her first.

    Quote Originally Posted by bluish_wolf View Post
    Yeah, the whole, "killing-yourself-so-you-don't-get-captured," is a lot less meaningful when your corpse could be animated and your shade can be talked to. Necromancy just screws everything up.
    It's not so much about the military effects of being captured as it is about the guilt and shame of killing all your fellow soldiers so that the lich sorceror has clear access to the tool he needs to take over the world.
    Quote Originally Posted by Winterwind View Post
    Mewtarthio, you have scared my brain into hiding, a trembling, broken shadow of a thing, cowering somewhere in the soothing darkness and singing nursery rhymes in the hope of obscuring the Lovecraftian facts you so boldly brought into daylight.

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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable.

    True, Paladins are not unstoppable killing machines and in fact the Paladin class does depend on its mount.

    This is not about dump stats, take the Monk class for example that have all saves as good saves but have problems in their own.

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    Default Re: Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Irbis View Post
    Erm... they're not supposed to be invincible unkillable machines;.
    High saves wouldn't make them invincible unkillable machines. It'd just remove the silliness of a class CENTERED AROUND HONOR, FAITH, AND LOYALTY from being mentally swayed.

    Storyline-wise, a paladin is supposed to be the most insanely DISCIPLINED mental mind there is in the ENTIRE world, and that's BEFORE you take into account the divine hold their gods have over them (of which D&D only shows by their immunity to fear, which by itself makes no sense because why would the gods make their servants immune to fear but not to any other form of mental sway?). This is a class that is REQUIRED to FOLLOW AN HONOUR CODE THEIR ENTIRE LIFE or else the gods will forcefully strip away their powers. You'd think such a mind would be near impossible to charm or sway under any condition.

    The fact that D&D rules allows them to have more than half a chance to be mentally swayed, even by a level 20 lich, shows that D&D has taken absolutely no consideration into the whole storyline and theme of the paladin class and no idea what the definition of "discipline" is (and obviously has never had any of its designers in the actual military).

    This isn't about mechanics. This is about HUMAN NATURE and the blatant obvious fact that D&D mechanics as they are make no sense in terms of the D&D background given to paladins and how they'd apply to human nature. In fact, it's practically an insult to the human mind and self-awareness that people who dedicate their entire lives to following a ludicrously disciplined code can be so easily hypnotized, no matter how good the hypnotist is.
    Last edited by TiamatRoar; 2007-05-05 at 02:07 PM.

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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable.

    My own personal interpretation of their fear immunity has been that they still feel fear but are so courageous that it doesn't affect them. Paladins are supposed to be courageous more so than any other class after all, it's part of what they are, and you can't have courage if you don't feel fear.

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    Default Re: Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable.

    You can't have discipline if you're committing acts of randomness (IE, the type of insanity from magical insanity), either.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable.

    This is magic we are talking about. Magic. How else could you explain how a big burley barbarian who never backed away from a fight in his life would turn around, run, and scream like a little girl after having Cause Fear cast on him? It simply isn't the same as normal fear or normal insanity.

    The reasons paladins are immune to fear is because they literally radiate bravery. I mean, it's called, Aura of Courage, after all. It's not because they went through years of mental conditioning, or anything. If someone cast fear on them, the aura would counter it, just like any other countercasting.

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    Default Re: Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable.

    So Deus Ex Machina, then? (which is the very definition of magic, especially as you've described it). Hmm... No wonder why lots of people were so disheartened by that strip. It works in the context of "magic" ("a wizard did it." Literally!) but is completely against all logic of human emotion and mind. And makes me look down on D&D as a whole anyways. Because disguising Deus Ex Machina as "magic" and saying "it's allowed because it's magic" in the most plot-related of things (emotion and mentality) shows that D&D makes for absolutely horrible storytelling in this regard (this is a criticism of D&D, not Rich, who was simply legitly going by said flawed D&D conventions, ignoring the question of legality of using a seal on a bouncy rubber ball). If people criticize authors for using such cheap cop outs as "A wizard did it" deus ex machina in other storylines, I hardly see why D&D itself should be exempt from such criticism for having such a blatant example of that built in.

    I can take magical undead and magical monsters, but things like magical mental suggestion in blatant contradictions against the sheer CORE of the character concept to the point where it would legitly force such OOCness legitly in a system that's supposed to be primarily storytelling-based indicates a very poor system. Like when people in storyline roleplay writing clubs use beer and alchohol as blatant excuses to get their characters to act completely OOC, except worse.

    And it IS "legal OOCness". As Redcloak himself stated, Fear is a natural human emotionl. Absolute chaos, however, is NOT and is dependent on your personality (which is why there's a Chaos Law alignment but not a Fear Courage alignment in D&D)

    Well, "It's MAGIC!" has certainly done a lot to convince me that D&D is a fantastic storytelling module.
    Last edited by TiamatRoar; 2007-05-05 at 02:45 PM.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable.

    I was trying to convince you that D&D is a fantastic storytelling module? I certainly don't recall doing that.
    Last edited by bluish_wolf; 2007-05-05 at 02:45 PM.

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    Default Re: Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable.

    You might not have been aware of or actively trying to, but it has been the theme of this thread so your attempts to counter argue were indirectly attempting to do that.

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    Default Re: Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable.

    Quote Originally Posted by TiamatRoar View Post
    You might not have been aware of or actively trying to, but it has been the theme of this thread so your attempts to counter argue were indirectly attempting to do that.
    Right...

    Totally not a straw man argument whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable.

    Some people have a time getting their heads around this:

    Just because you're good, holy, say your prayers before you sleep and recycle does not mean that you're not going to be humiliated and slaughtered by an immensely powerful Lich. Being 'good' doesn't actually automatically earn anyone a heroic death. I'm glad Rich realizes that.
    Last edited by Grasilich; 2007-05-05 at 03:05 PM.

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable.

    Quote Originally Posted by TiamatRoar View Post
    Storyline-wise, a paladin is supposed to be the most insanely DISCIPLINED mental mind there is in the ENTIRE world,
    No thats monks...Paladins aren't disciplined mental minds. They are disciplined in terms of their actions.

    This is a class that is REQUIRED to FOLLOW AN HONOUR CODE THEIR ENTIRE LIFE or else the gods will forcefully strip away their powers. You'd think such a mind would be near impossible to charm or sway under any condition.
    why? What does following a code of honor have to do with mental control? It means it should be harder to make them do something against their code, but this isn't making them do something, this is taking control of their minds, irregardless of any honor.
    The fact that D&D rules allows them to have more than half a chance to be mentally swayed, even by a level 20 lich, shows that D&D has taken absolutely no consideration into the whole storyline and theme of the paladin class and no idea what the definition of "discipline" is (and obviously has never had any of its designers in the actual military).
    ok, first off: as I said above, it isn't as much being "mentally swayed" as entirely mind controlled. Secondly, as I said above, how would moral discipline have anything to do with having your mind taken over by an extremely powerful sorcerer? I would also then add that that assumption is probably extremely offensive to many of the writer in dnd.

    This isn't about mechanics. This is about HUMAN NATURE and the blatant obvious fact that D&D mechanics as they are make no sense in terms of the D&D background given to paladins and how they'd apply to human nature. In fact, it's practically an insult to the human mind and self-awareness that people who dedicate their entire lives to following a ludicrously disciplined code can be so easily hypnotized, no matter how good the hypnotist is.
    Ok, dnd contains magic. Human nature shouldn't change whether or not you can be magically mind controlled.
    um, self-awareness and following a code of honor shouldn't make your mind any more resistant to mind control, as I said above. It shouldn't matter what you do and what kind of moral codes you follow. Just because you are a really nice person, or always follow some method of living or another, however strong, should have no effect upon your susception to hypnotism. It should DEFINITELY help against people trying to convince you of something, you could often die for your code, but that shouldn't affect whether magic can suppress it or not.
    It works in the context of "magic" ("a wizard did it." Literally!) but is completely against all logic of human emotion and mind.
    Yes. It does work in the context of magic. And yes, magic does break the laws of physics, logic, and the human mind, thats why it's MAGIC. If it didn't do these things, there would be, in fact, no magic. Or gods for that matter.
    And makes me look down on D&D as a whole anyways.
    Then why are you complaining about the fact that dnd has magic?
    and saying "it's allowed because it's magic" in the most plot-related of things (emotion and mentality) shows that D&D makes for absolutely horrible storytelling in this regard
    STOP RIGHT THERE.
    1. assumption.
    2. incorrect assumption.
    3. try playing dnd with a competent DM.
    4. how is this "the most plot-related of things" unless ANYTHING THAT HAPPENS THAT AFFECTS THE PLOT is also "a most plot-related thing"
    true. If somebody uses magic as a plot device, to fix any problems you can't figure out otherwise, then they are a bad DM. There are in fact GOOD DMs in dnd (who knew). Any good DM won't use magic as a deus ex machina, they will use it to add to their storytelling. It is pretty easy to avoid deus ex machina magic in your plot, although in a single battle like this? sure. At the level Xykon is at, he could have used a meteor swarm instead, and they'd all be dead. Would you call that a deus ex machina because it killed everyone? If so, then according to you dnd shouldn't include high level wizards. If not, then how is using a symbol of insanity on paladins any different, under the arguments I made above shredding your "code of honor = mental invincibility" arguments?
    Last edited by Icewalker; 2007-05-05 at 03:54 PM.

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    Default Re: Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grasilich View Post
    Some people have a time getting their heads around this:

    Just because you're good, holy, say your prayers before you sleep and recycle does not mean that you're not going to be humiliated and slaughtered by an immensely powerful Lich. Being 'good' doesn't actually automatically earn anyone a heroic death. I'm glad Rich realizes that.
    Well said. If this had been some goody-two-shoes fairy-tale, where all the good guys have character shields, it would become a rather bland story pretty quickly.

    I'm glad Xykon disposed of the paladines in the cruelest possible way, it ads flavour and tips the scales back to neutral after all the dead hobgoblins we have seen. Besides, Paladines killed Redcloak's family, so they only got what was comming for them.

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    Default Re: Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable.

    Shedding tears for NPCs who knew they were going to fight a lich sorceror many times too powerful for them to even slow down... strange. I'm a bit confused as to why they didn't cast protection from evil on themselves the second they saw him but only the 6th level plus paladins would be likely to have the ability to cast a spell. Their "high saves" are coming from the assumption they have really high charisma scores, which is never required in 3rd+ edition to become a pally. The highest their charisma bonus might be is a 15 giving them a whopping +5 to 8 given my rough estimate of the guild's overall power level. The save for the spell is going to be at least 22 and I when dealing with NPC vs. NPC combat just have them get average rolls for everything until the victor is determined since the PCs aren't there only the outcome matters.
    But paladins aren't exactly the easy to get the drop on with detect evil, sense motive, zone of truth, dispel magic, and a bunch of free immunities a paladin is a great class for any player. NPCs who get mostly average stats, rarely get treasure, and have token value to the plot aren't quite as lucky.

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    tongue Re: Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Irbis View Post
    Erm... they're not supposed to be invincible unkillable machines; If they had high will save, Xykon simply would've used something requiring reflex save. Frankly, it doesn't matter what he would've used - someone would whine about it. Reflex? Hey, they're warriors, with lots of exercise, using two blades, they should've got nice DEX. Fortitude? How about... Well, you got the picture. Everyone has at least 1-2 dump stats, unless someone cheated when they rolled character. They're just warriors with a bit of their god's blessing, not terminators.
    I would have no problem if they got owned by Reflex spells. Having them all skit off the castle while charging would have being hilarious.

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    Default Re: Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable.

    Quote Originally Posted by EyethatBinds View Post
    Shedding tears for NPCs who knew they were going to fight a lich sorceror many times too powerful for them to even slow down... strange. I'm a bit confused as to why they didn't cast protection from evil on themselves the second they saw him
    Protection from evil kinda sucks. Wouldn't have helped them at all in this situation. It's just like +2 on AC, +2 to saves, can't be possessed, and can't be attacked by non-good outsiders using natural weapons. That's all. Wouldn't really help against the 50 will saves vs the symbol of insanity they needed.

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    Default Re: Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable.

    after seeing her suicide reffered to as seppuku ('ritual suicide') inseveral threads, or equated with it as in this thread,I feel obliged to mention something: that seppuku is ritual suicide. its just plain suicide if the person kills herself then and there, as seppuku involves a 2 day ritual, not to mention requiring permission from one's lord. Of course this is pretty much nitpickery since this isnt Japan..
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    Default Re: Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Icewalker View Post
    Protection from evil kinda sucks. Wouldn't have helped them at all in this situation. It's just like +2 on AC, +2 to saves, can't be possessed, and can't be attacked by non-good outsiders using natural weapons. That's all. Wouldn't really help against the 50 will saves vs the symbol of insanity they needed.
    It also protects you from Dominate spells and maybe Charm spells. The wording's a little vague, but Dominate's definately right out (technically, control from Dominate's all that's blocked--I think you can still get Dominated, you just won't obey any commands until the Protection wears off).
    Quote Originally Posted by Winterwind View Post
    Mewtarthio, you have scared my brain into hiding, a trembling, broken shadow of a thing, cowering somewhere in the soothing darkness and singing nursery rhymes in the hope of obscuring the Lovecraftian facts you so boldly brought into daylight.

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    Default Re: Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mewtarthio View Post
    It also protects you from Dominate spells and maybe Charm spells. The wording's a little vague, but Dominate's definately right out (technically, control from Dominate's all that's blocked--I think you can still get Dominated, you just won't obey any commands until the Protection wears off).
    Symbol of Insanity causes insanity which causes confusion.
    The spell confusion is a enchantment (compulsion) effect.

    The spell protection from evil says:
    Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person).
    So close. But no, it has to be an ability which lets them control you, causing insanity is still perfectly fine. Would give em a +2 on their many saves vs the symbol though.

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    Default Re: Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Icewalker View Post
    Symbol of Insanity causes insanity which causes confusion.
    The spell confusion is a enchantment (compulsion) effect.

    The spell protection from evil says:


    So close. But no, it has to be an ability which lets them control you, causing insanity is still perfectly fine. Would give em a +2 on their many saves vs the symbol though.
    Well, of course. I mean, it's a first-level abjuration, not a mind blank.
    Quote Originally Posted by Winterwind View Post
    Mewtarthio, you have scared my brain into hiding, a trembling, broken shadow of a thing, cowering somewhere in the soothing darkness and singing nursery rhymes in the hope of obscuring the Lovecraftian facts you so boldly brought into daylight.

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