The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

[Peelee]

I don't remember any other capital ships being damaged by the big one blowing, but it would fit in with the movie's style. Like how in the beginning, one TIE crashing into one bomber somehow blew up two other bombers by debris. Damn weak-ass bombers...

[comicshorse]

I really recall seeing other ships damaged, but won't pay to rewatch and confirm

Thanks

- M

Yeah I thought that was the case. Though it seemed to me to be shrapnel from the initial impact hitting the other ships

[The Aboleth]

Possibly; it could possibly have a 98% success rate. The technology is miles ahead of what WWII pilots had, and while the general idea is a good analogy, success numbers don't have to line up at all.

They don't HAVE to line up, but realistically AND statistically the strategy is unlikely to come anywhere close to 100%. Any strategy, for that matter, not just the kamikaze one.

Edit to your edit:
And as soon as Star War starts being a detailed analogue to real life military strategies, that will be an effective argument.

Real world parallels can still be drawn from, and apply to, science fiction/fantasy narratives.

Also, upon further reflection Hux was definitely on the dreadnought when it got hit. He was with Phasma as they were paying off the codebreaker and discussing how to execute Finn and Rose.

[LaZodiac]

Did he? I remember his saying that he shouldn't have voiced his opinions publicly.

Also, Mark Hamill is perfectly within his rights to change his mind, if he did. Others are perfectly within their rights to stand by their original opinions.

Hamill commented in response to an IMDb interview where he said, “I’ve had trouble accepting what [Rian Johnson] saw for Luke but again, I mean, I have to say, having seen the movie I was wrong. I think being pushed out of your comfort zone is a good thing because if I was just another benevolent Jedi training young padawans, we’ve seen it!”

Additionally, the full tweet he sent out about the "feels bad about voicing his opinion" reads as follows.

I regret voicing my doubts & insecurities in public.Creative differences are a common element of any project but usually remain private. All I wanted was to make good movie. I got more than that- @rianjohnson made an all-time GREAT one!

This is not someone going "oh uh sorry I didn't like this good movie" and is pretty clearly not someone who's being forced into this due to contract obligations. He saw the movie, and realized that while what he wanted was a valid concern for him, the end result is better than what he assumes his preferred end result would be. People can change their minds.

[Peelee]

They don't HAVE to line up, but realistically AND statistically the strategy is unlikely to come anywhere close to 100%. Any strategy, for that matter, not just the kamikaze one.



Real world parallels can still be drawn from, and apply to, science fiction/fantasy narratives.

Also, upon further reflection Hux was definitely on the dreadnought when it got hit. He was with Phasma as they were paying off the codebreaker and discussing how to execute Finn and Rose.

Good call on Hux, I'd forgotten that. Although that adds the problem of "Hux also miraculously escapes the explosion unscathed." Not really a point towards the realism bit there.

As for real-world parallels, yes, they can be drawn from and apply to sci-fi/fantasy movies. They just don't really apply for Star Wars, and rarely ever have.

As for no strategy being 100% successful, you're right. They just need to be successful enough. Lightspeed ramming sure seems successful enough, and no amount of stats of WWII kamikaze rates are going to change that until the movies go in the direction of "this no longer works for X reason" or "this was great that one time but has a low success rate and will no longer be attempted." Ten gold says they never address it again, like Han and the lightspeed-through-shields trick.

[Dr.Samurai]

Yeah, recall this isn't simply ramming one ship into another and just letting your regular speed and momentum do the damage. This is like light speeds or inter-dimensional mayhem if we're going through hyperspace. So it's kamikaze plus currently unattainable speeds or dimension-hopping, which means it can be way more effective than what we're used to in the real world.

[Chen]

EDIT: My reason for bringing up the WWII stats anyway was to make the point that kamikaze tactics were NOT effective for a huge military in real life, and definitely wouldn't be for a small ragtag group of Resistance fighters. It's just not worth it overall, plus they don't have the numbers to sustain such a strategy anyway.

The article on Kamikaze's say that 3862 Kamikaze pilots died and took out more than 7000 naval enemies. If they were only 19% effective, that's a frighteningly good kill ratio if you can up that effectiveness. That's exactly what they did in terms of hyperspace ramming. It can be automated so you remove the human factor, it can be done extremely quickly AND from outside of weapons range which should massively increase the effectiveness. Seems like it would be a fantastic method of fighting.

I mean if you want to look at the real world we have dramatically increased the effectiveness of kamikaze attacks in the same way. We've created computer/radar guided missiles instead of needing to strap a pilot onto our bomb and have him aim it at the target.

[pendell]

Five minute snark .

ETA: Also Vanity Faire lauds the movie for its message of "women being mostly right, men being mostly wrong" -- which would explain the Leia as Mary Poppins moment. Some asked why Leia got to live when Luke and Han didn't. Perhaps this is why; because the movie is all about how heroic and triumphant women are against the eeevil first order (mostly men, apart from token Phazma) and against the clueless men in the rebellion (such as Poe). Women rule!

That also may explain why Peo's sacrifice is wrong while the Admiral's sacrifice is right; because Poe is a man and the Admiral is a woman.

I haven't seen the movie, but if so I would describe this as "hamfisted". Surely there's a way to promote women and people of color in a way that's consistent and logical with the movie universe.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[The Aboleth]

As for no strategy being 100% successful, you're right. They just need to be successful enough. Lightspeed ramming sure seems successful enough, and no amount of stats of WWII kamikaze rates are going to change that until the movies go in the direction of "this no longer works for X reason" or "this was great that one time but has a low success rate and will no longer be attempted." Ten gold says they never address it again, like Han and the lightspeed-through-shields trick.

Putting aside the effectiveness or lack thereof for a moment, the Resistance doesn't have the resources to pull it off. Even if you pilot everything remotely, those are still ships/escape pods/other vessels that you can no longer use for future attacks and which now must be replaced. In a resource war with the First Order, my money says the Resistance is HIGHLY unlikely to win.

[Mightymosy]

Mark Hamill said a couple of different things and to me he often if not always seemed to have a somewhat ironic undertone.
So for me it's hard to tell what his real feelings were and are. I can say that I personally find his critic about how Luke is written in StarWars VIII to be completely spot on - and I was so positively surprised when I heard about that the first time.
At first i thought maybe I am the only one who thought Luke was badly written (I went in the movie 100% spoiler free) and then I came to know the actor openly said the same thing!

What he also said was:
If you expect to relive kind childhood memories you will be disappointed.
And also:
This is just a movie. I hope people like it.

Which also speaks volumes if you read it in the right way.
But as I said, i find it difficult to be sure what he REALLY feels about things.
Always remember that this and possibly the next movie probably mean a LOT of money for Mark, and a saint nobody is...


Even my sister felt that Luke wasnt done well.
She rather liked the movie - and I cant blame her! She has been a StarWars fan all along, and she had to wait SIX f*ing movies to get a strong female character (sorry, Amidala was sort of a disappointment after a strong start, and Leia has always been a little passive, at least compared to the boys). Rey even looks a little like her. So I am happy for her, but wish the movie would be better, so the general audience would grow more fond of female action heroes (to be fair, I think Hollywood SERVERELY underestimates how popular they already ARE, even with male audience only).
When I told my family I kinda disliked the Last Jedi, my sis immediately said: "Why? It's because of Luke, isn't it?"

For her i think it wasnt so bad, because she has always been more of a Han Solo and Darth Vader "fan" if i may say it like that.

[Dr.Samurai]

Putting aside the effectiveness or lack thereof for a moment, the Resistance doesn't have the resources to pull it off. Even if you pilot everything remotely, those are still ships/escape pods/other vessels that you can no longer use for future attacks and which now must be replaced. In a resource war with the First Order, my money says the Resistance is HIGHLY unlikely to win.

Right, but the hang up people have is what the implications are for the franchise in general, and the movies that came before. If this is something that is possible, it changes everything.

[Peelee]

Even my sister felt that Luke wasnt done well.
She rather liked the movie - and I cant blame her! She has been a StarWars fan all along, and she had to wait SIX f*ing movies to get a strong female character

So she didn't pay attention to the first Star Wars movie, then?

Putting aside the effectiveness or lack thereof for a moment, the Resistance doesn't have the resources to pull it off. Even if you pilot everything remotely, those are still ships/escape pods/other vessels that you can no longer use for future attacks and which now must be replaced. In a resource war with the First Order, my money says the Resistance is HIGHLY unlikely to win.

Yes, the Resistance doesn't have the resources to pull it off. They don't have the resources to pull anything off, really. So if there is to be another movie, it logically follows that they will either gain the resources to do things, or have a supply of resources we do not currently know about. Doesn't much matter either way. If the argument against lightspeed ramming as as feasible weaponization is lack of resources, then that same argument can be used for "welp, guess this isn't a trilogy, then."

[warty goblin]

Putting aside the effectiveness or lack thereof for a moment, the Resistance doesn't have the resources to pull it off. Even if you pilot everything remotely, those are still ships/escape pods/other vessels that you can no longer use for future attacks and which now must be replaced. In a resource war with the First Order, my money says the Resistance is HIGHLY unlikely to win.

Well yes, but that's been true of the Resistance since the beginning, and if we're being honest, probably the Rebel Alliance as well. It's true whether they suicide-ram ships as a new super-efficient strategy or never do that again* and go back to dropping bombs and blowing up everything with X-wings forever. Realistically they simply can't win a conventional war, but because this is Star Wars not Star Insurgency, we get conventional warfare. And I bet we're going to continue to get conventional warfare, even though, being down to 14 people and one ship, any capacity for it is going to come from Outer Rim allies, and the so-called Resistance would be no more than a figleaf for PR purposes. But I'd put money on them still be super-important commander people.

They could win an insurgency, but that looks a lot different. For one, it requires admitting they aren't going to destroy the First Order (at least as the immediate goal), and simply making staying on some number of planets prohibitively expensive. So lots of assassinations, kidnappings, IEDs, doing nasty and eventually fatal things to collaborators, setting up a shadow government that offers welfare services and a more appealing justice system, and so on. Actually fighting the enemy means things have gone very wrong. Everybody involved accepts that they're probably going to die, their replacement is going to die, and that person's replacement is going to die before they see anything that looks like victory, the most important thing anybody does is settle land disputes...

But yeah, that movie is not getting made.

*And they're never doing that again.

[Mightymosy]

Re: Lightspeed ramming

It is practically almost being invented already without need for volunteer sacrificial pilots or droids.

Remember the ship Obi Wan had in Episode 2 (I think)?
The one where he docked onto the Hyperdrive ring, and disconnected when he flew down to the planet.
Just use that, but disconnect just before the jump.

[Peelee]

The lightspeed ramming issue would not be an issue at all if it was in a standalone movie. But in a series, especially one that is to continue indefinitely like Disney wants, certain things are world-breaking. They fundamentally change how things in the universe work. Lightspeed ramming is one of those things. Lightspeed jumping through shields is one of those things. The new movies are introducing elements that are amazing on paper, and would work fantastically in one-off movies, but do not work in a series due to how they alter how the universe works, while immediately after forever ignoring that same alteration.

[Lord Joeltion]

Why on earth is having an explanation work in universe for a character a problem? That's the way it's supposed to work. Besides which, the point of the scene is obvious, it's Luke's redemption and him finding his way back to the Force. It's quite clear that he is profoundly weary of - everything - and so he is granted peace.

That wasn't what I meant. Luke dying after his mind trick is what makes no narrative sense. He didn't need to. He could have been left crippled or sick until next movie. But writers obviously rushed his passing away because they wanted to avoid of being accused of carbon copying ROJ in Ep 9.

ETA: Also, the Rebellion doesn't have emotional attachment to droids. Luke does. Han constantly threatens 3PO, Leia flicks 3PO's off switch (ithink. Might have been Han), the rebel tech prepping Luke's X-Wing offers a different R2 because his looks a bit beat up, etc. Poe likes his robot as well, but nobody else in the movies is all that attached to them.

That is true. Robot discrimination in Star Wars was always on the verge of uncanny, given the distinctive personality and human-like traits most droids tend to have. Most people don't even bother to learn binary (droidspeak) like Luke did. It might be possible that droid-fondness is kind of a trait for technopaths and droid-builders. Or loners.

Even if it were that easy--and I'm not convinced it would be--you still run into the same problem that it is overall not a very effective tactic. WWII kamikaze attacks sometimes did damage, but also frequently missed their targets and ended up accomplishing very little. As I pointed out, even the attack we WERE shown in the movie was little more than a speed bump for The First Order.

It doesn't need to be "very effective". It just needs to be effective. That's the issue. Guided Missles aren't always effective, not even in Star Wars, yet they have plenty of those. What you seem to forget is that the previous accepted canon was that it was simply impossible to jump in/out of hyperspace when a physical object was in the middle. Either because the navicomputer would prevent so; or because your ship would simply obliterate itself (causing no visible harm to the other object) the point is that canon was changed. Now FTL balistics is real. And the problem isn't just why the rebels don't use it, but why nobody uses it, period.

FO have plenty of resources, and even fighters have their own hyperdrive engines. Instead of wasting a whole squad of sluggish bombers, the Resistance could have launched them into hyperspace on a close location to destroy the dreadnought. That would have made them 200% more effective than what they actually did. Instead of bothering with aiming a humongous canon while compromising the safety of the whole dreadnaught, the FO could have easily constructed self-guiding missiles with droids and TIE spare parts. It's totally game-changing, and the writers aren't witty enough to realize the whole mess they created.

How much difference is there really between compulsory service to one group and compulsory service to another one?

I don't think that counts. It's not "compulsory service" when you are in the middle of a mission. Even if soldiers have the liberty to drop service, doing so in the middle of a mission should be a no-no.

Finn, the deserted Stormtrooper, was maybe the biggest and best idea in the entire new trilogy.

I'm still amazed by the fact so many people think Finn is "original" because of that. Most Rebel soldiers were once soldiers of the Empire. Even Luke was hoping to become a pilot for them!

Putting aside the effectiveness or lack thereof for a moment, the Resistance doesn't have the resources to pull it off. Even if you pilot everything remotely, those are still ships/escape pods/other vessels that you can no longer use for future attacks and which now must be replaced. In a resource war with the First Order, my money says the Resistance is HIGHLY unlikely to win.

They had the resources to buy completely ineffective bombers and waste them on a mission that only worked by mere chance. If only the kamikaze girl had the idea to convince their superiors to install a hyperdrive on them...

She rather liked the movie - and I cant blame her! She has been a StarWars fan all along, and she had to wait SIX f*ing movies to get a strong female character (sorry, Amidala was sort of a disappointment after a strong start, and Leia has always been a little passive, at least compared to the boys).

I'm fine with Rey and all, but... no girl in this trilogy compares to every other female badass in the whole continuity (canon or legends). I'm bothered by people who insists SW never had strong female characters when in fact, it had some of the best of the genre. Darth Treya is one of the best villains, period. Aayla Secura is one of the most badass jedi, period. Ashoka Tano has some of the most badass scenes ever, period. I know they aren't in movies, but SW isn't just the movies. Not even after Disney. Instead of simply waiting, your sister could have grabbed any other piece of the expanded universe every other day, y'know?

[Peelee]

That wasn't what I meant. Luke dying after his mind trick is what makes no narrative sense. He didn't need to. He could have been left crippled or sick until next movie. But writers obviously rushed his passing away because they wanted to avoid of being accused of carbon copying ROJ in Ep 9.

To be fair, they did lay the narrative groundwork for it. All the instances of Ben and Rey meeting via projection was basically setup for Luke's fight at the end, with lines like "I can't see your surroundings. Can you see mine?" and "You can't be doing this, the effort would kill you." Presumably, Snoke doing it for other people was less effort than Luke doing it for himself, otherwise there's a snag there, but it was subtly foreshadowed.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Regarding the feasibility of a large-scale hyperspace kamikaze strategy: forget the Resistance for a moment and go back to the PT. By RotS, the Confederacy has the resources of half the galaxy at its disposal and a fleet of droid starfighters. Upgrade those with hyperdrives, and the Battle of Coruscant goes from "capital ships duking it out above the shields to give the Invisible Hand a small chance to escape with the Chancellor" to "every Star Destroyer is blown to pieces by dozens of droid starfighters and the CIS capital ships get away with the Chancellor free and clear."

Obviously the way it actually turned out was better for Sidious--but the CIS forces, up to and including Grievous, didn't know about said plans and actually wanted to win the war. Unless Sidious vetoed every proposal to equip droid starfighters with hyperdrives (which would be pretty suspicious on its own: "No no, don't take this obvious and highly effective tack, trust me, I totally want you guys to win but I have my reasons") there's no reason even a single cruiser's droid complement couldn't have been turned into hypercapable missiles and turn the tide of major battles if hyperspace travel worked that way.

And, I repeat for posterity, <Morbo>Hyperspace travel does not work that way! Good night!</Morbo>


To go back to the "the OT characters ended up going nowhere" point from last page:

So, this is an interesting topic because it's something that always happens with sequels. The problem with stories, always, is that no matter how they end, no matter how happily it ends...there will always be a bad moment later on, if it extends. Not because of malicious directors or anything, but because just realistically, people will die, eventually. Han lives a dangerous life, he'll die eventually leaving Leia a widow, it's kind of an inevitibility given his life style. It's tragic, but that's kind of the idea. ANY story that continues on beyond it's happy ending will have tragedy in spades, because no matter how good something is...it's always impermanent. It's a fascinating thing to think about, and not one I find wholly negative. It's okay if you don't like it, and you don't have to follow the new series. You don't even have to consider them canon if you preferred the EU, nothing's stopping you from going that route. But in the realm of discussion and talking about these things, it's important to realize this inherent tragedy that comes with "and then the story continues". Time's arrow marches forward, and all that.

There's a difference between "time marches on from the happy ending in the OT" and "the Reset Button is hit and everyone ends up exactly where they started, but worse."

Again, let's compare TLJ to the EU version of the characters.

In the OT, Han starts off as a loner smuggler with only his best friend Chewie and his Millennium Falcon to keep him company, with no greater purpose in life. In TLJ, Han ends up as a loner divorcee and smuggler with only his best friend Chewie to keep him company, with the Millennium Falcon lost and his son having killed him. In the EU, though, Han ends up as a retired general of the New Republic in a happy marriage, and while Chewie died and his kids didn't exactly end up in a great place he still lived to see peace with his granddaughter.

In the OT, Luke starts off as a naive farmer lazing around and not wanting to join the fight against the Empire because he feels he has other responsibilities and can't really do anything against the Empire. In TLJ, Luke ends up as a jaded farmer lazing around and not wanting to join the fight against the First Order because he's sad. In the EU, though, Luke ends up as a Jedi Master who trains many Jedi for the good of the galaxy and redeems many Dark Siders, both former students and otherwise.

In the OT, Leia starts off as a senator and diplomat who is secretly devoted to the Rebellion and has helped score several major victories against the Empire. In TLJ, Leia ends up as a senator and diplomat who is secretly devoted to the Resistance and has seen nothing but failure after failure against the First Order. In the EU, though, Leia ends up as Chief of State of the New Republic and helps the galaxy recover from the Galactic Civil War as part of an illustrious political career before retiring to be with her family.

In all three cases, the ST version of the character has negative character development, not being allowed to keep any of their growth or achievements from the OT. The EU versions of the characters, meanwhile, retain their OT growth and achievements and continue on from there to have different tragedies befall them. Han sees his best friend and his children die or suffer horribly or both, Luke sees many students go Dark despite his best efforts and discovers that the Jedi weren't all they were cracked up to be, and Leia sees that her dream of a perfect unified New Republic wasn't going to happen without a lot of pointless political squabbling...but all of that respects what came before, leaves the characters intact, and gives them new challenge to face, it doesn't rewind them back to the opening crawl of ANH and then kill them off ignominiously.

I'm not saying the ST would have been terrible unless it 100% followed the EU--though I do think that what we got in the ST is, at best, on par with the schlocky parts of the EU that everyone mocks and uses to claim that the whole EU is bad--but it wouldn't have been hard to come up with a plot for the ST that lets the OT characters (both the main trio and everyone else) keep their victory and come up with a new major threat and new challenges to deal with.

[Mightymosy]

So she didn't pay attention to the first Star Wars movie, then?

Well, Leia was strong in a mature, sophisticated intellectual sense, sure.

From the point of a simple-minded fantasy setting, especially from a child, teenager or just action flic oriented point of view she was the princess that got captured and freed, sat in the command base while the "real heroes" blew the enemy's base and gave them the medals afterwards.
Sure, she gave some tough talk and took a blaster in the hand two times (which makes her pretty radical for the time being, compared to say, Princess Toadstool who in all but one Mario adventure I know does nothing but write short notes or give powerups).
Also, I assume that it WAS pretty progressive having a woman lead a military operation at the time.
But come on. I can see why a girl might have the demand for more than that, especially as a child.
Even as an adult I can see the raw instinctual appeal of a girl like Rey who just beats the crap out of anyone with a light sabr. That she is narratively to supposed be able to be THAT good at level 1 is another thing altogether...

But guess what? As a female you really can't be picky with female action hero protagonists these days, so for all i dislike about Star Wars VIII....Go Rey!! You can do it!
(but if you fall in love with Kylo I'll vomit - if I haven't put Star Wars completely ad acta till then, that is)

[Peelee]

Well, Leia was strong in a mature, sophisticated intellectual sense, sure.

She shot at stormtroopers boarding her ship. She mouthed off the Vader and Tarkin both. She refused to give intel despite torture droids and Darth Vader combined interrogating her. She refused to give Intel despite her entire planet being threatened. She mouthed off to a stormtrooper ostensibly coming in to escort her to her death sentence. She took charge of her own rescue and rescued her rescuers.

About the only thing Han and Luke did that she didn't was fly against the Death Star. She's a badass space princess in the first movie. I'm not sure what else your sister could have wanted from her.

ETA: I'm not dismissing your sisters opinions about Rey, I just feel like Leia gets less recognition than she deserves for being as tough as she was. Lord knows I couldn't do anywhere near half the things she did if I was in her shoes.

[pendell]

I think the biggest upgrade from Leia to Rey is that, as tough as Leia was (and of all the things she did, standing up to Darth Vader to his face unarmed was probably the most courageous thing anyone had done in any of the OT movies), she still spent time as a captive princess needing rescue. Rey doesn't need to be rescued. Rey is a hero in her own right. And from a perspective of treating women more like equals and less like ... like livestock, it's a step up.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Peelee]

[Leia] still spent time as a captive princess needing rescue. Rey doesn't need to be rescued.

Rey spent time as a captive needing rescue. There was a big plot point in TFA of Rey needing to be rescued. That's why Han and Finn go to Starkiller Base, to rescue Rey.

[pendell]

Rey spent time as a captive needing rescue. There was a big plot point in TFA of Rey needing to be rescued. That's why Han and Finn go to Starkiller Base, to rescue Rey.

True, I'd forgotten that part. The fact that she needed a rescue didn't stick in the mind the way it did, say, for Leia. Maybe because TFA spent more time building her up as an action hero whereas Leia gets one action sequence of her own in the beginning, then spends most of the rest of the movie being tortured in a cell.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Peelee]

True, I'd forgotten that part. The fact that she needed a rescue didn't stick in the mind the way it did, say, for Leia. Maybe because TFA spent more time building her up as an action hero whereas Leia gets one action sequence of her own in the beginning, then spends most of the rest of the movie being tortured in a cell.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Kinda like Han and Chewie in ESB?

[Dr.Samurai]

I don't think Rey compares to Leia. Leia had much more agency than Rey has been given so far.

Rey, despite being set up as the obvious hero, hasn't really done anything on her own volition that is heroic. Or maybe better put, she's just sort of drifting through these movies and doing stuff, as opposed to having a clear aim of her own that she is struggling to achieve.

I don't really think Rey is a good example of the "strong female character" because she's not really a good example of a character to begin with.

[The Aboleth]

If the argument against lightspeed ramming as as feasible weaponization is lack of resources, then that same argument can be used for "welp, guess this isn't a trilogy, then."

The argument against lightspeed ramming is that it is an ineffective way to wage large-scale warfare against an enemy. The resources thing is simply a point I am making in favor of that argument.

As I have said repeatedly, even the one instance we see of it being used was arguably ineffective. The dreadnought, at that point, was largely done with that battle anyway. As you pointed out earlier, Peelee, the First Order had already gotten everything together for a final ground assault on the Salt Planet base. Destroying the Dreadnought accomplished nothing to hinder that assault, save for maybe buying a couple extra minutes for the remaining transports to land (but again, since the First Order was already planning for a ground assault that means they expected some transports to make it to the planet anyway). Nobody of consequence to the First Order died as a result of the lightspeed ramming and they were still able to launch a ground assault. Short of destroying a dreadnought that was largely useless for a ground battle anyway, what did the tactic accomplish?

Throwing a large amount of resources at an enemy--resources that you can no longer use because you have intentionally blown them up, and now must replace for another attack later--is a stupid warfare strategy. It only "changes the nature of warfare in Star Wars" if everyone suddenly has limitless resources and then decides--again, stupidly!--to deliberately waste those resources on a strategy that only provides a SLIM CHANCE of success (and even then, it depends on how you define "success"). It requires every military leader to disregard basic common sense in warfare. It's not going to "change warfare in Star Wars" because the one time it was employed was in a moment of desperation that ultimately had mixed results AT BEST.

[Dr.Samurai]

You're arguing that they waited too long to use the ramming technique. I agree. That doesn't mean it isn't effective.

[Peelee]

Throwing a large amount of resources at an enemy--resources that you can no longer use because you have intentionally blown them up, and now must replace for another attack later--is a stupid warfare strategy.

And if this required a large amount of resources, you would have a great point.

You could take a space rock and hook a hyperdrive up to it. You could hook hyperdrives up to escape pods. You could hook hyperdrives up to the freaking space trash that capital ships produce. The only investiture of resources is hyperdrives, and while we don't know how much they run, we do know that most ships in the galaxy have one, and there are one helluva lot of ships. All they need is mass and speed. The speed can be gotten by an incredibly common piece of technology. The mass can be gotten by literally anything in the galaxy.

You keep assuming facts not in evidence. Stop doing this, and you'll have amazingly good points.

[Mightymosy]

[...]

I'm still amazed by the fact so many people think Finn is "original" because of that. Most Rebel soldiers were once soldiers of the Empire. Even Luke was hoping to become a pilot for them!

One sentence for you:
Show, don't tell.

I know that Finn is not the first or only Stormtrooper to desert.
But it was never shown on the "big screen".
My point is a Stormtrooper deserting because of bad conscience is a really, really, worthy story to tell, even if it ain't exactly new.
When I saw Finn with the bloodsmeared helmet the first time I thought "Whoah, this is gonna ba a greeeat movie - it builds on what was before but shows story arcs we haven't seen before". Later when Death Star 3 showed up I thought "Errr......we have seen this before, haven't we? Why is THAT required, now?"

Same reason I like Rogue One so much. Sure, there was no NEED to tell that story, the series made sense without it. But it also was an opportunity to tell a very good story that also shed some light on open questions people might have. Rogue One was made with rest of the series in mind - no need to invent crazy new stuff - which to me is the exact opposite way Rian Johnson did, which seemed to me "sacrifice every- and anything you need, be it character consistency, internal or external logic, for as long as you can get a twist and surprise out of the audience."

I'm fine with Rey and all, but... no girl in this trilogy compares to every other female badass in the whole continuity (canon or legends). I'm bothered by people who insists SW never had strong female characters when in fact, it had some of the best of the genre. Darth Treya is one of the best villains, period. Aayla Secura is one of the most badass jedi, period. Ashoka Tano has some of the most badass scenes ever, period. I know they aren't in movies, but SW isn't just the movies. Not even after Disney. Instead of simply waiting, your sister could have grabbed any other piece of the expanded universe every other day, y'know?

I KNOW!!!!!

That's one of the biggest dissapointments I have with the Star Wars series as a whole.

See, after the old trilogy I read the Thrawn trilogy books. And they were GREAT! They are an almost direct sequel to the original movies, and they were a much much much much much better storyline than the current movie trilogy.
And they had Mara Jade.
So, when they announced a new movie trilogy would be made, I WAS SO STOKED!
I thought, ha ha, I know the books, I'll finally see Mara Jade IN ACTION!

And then it was just the prequels.
Oopsies. No Mara Jade.
But Natalie Portman would be in it! Hey, Natalie Port is great. I like her. This will be cool after all.
And she was cool. In the beginning. Shot some guards and was clever and stuff.

And.......fell in love with a baby......err......

And did....sorta nothing after that.....
and then died ...of.....broken heart??
What?
I sincerly hope the actress at least got a sh*tload of money for this cringeworthy character arc.
The prequels had strengths and weaknesses, but that was certainly a weak part.

Anyway, here comes the new trilogy!!

The world has matured, society has developed.
We have had Tomb Raider, we have had SALT, we had ....wait, did anyone other than Angelina Jolie get to play an asskicking woman character?
Uma Thurman, I guess...

But anyway....maybe NOW is FINALLY the time we give a glowing sword into gentle female hands?
Doesn't HAVE to be Mara Jade, really. Take your choice. I haven't read the entire EU (read a couple after the Thrawn trilogy, but honestly most of them were just not as good), but there are certainly plenty of choices around, considering all the pictures of ladies in Jedi clothes you can find on the Internets (naked or otherwise).

So we get Rey.....
And honestly, I was okay with Rey. Not impressed, not disgusted. Just okay. There was this "Mary Sue" thing which kinda bothered me, but not too much. But mostly I can't really feel with her because her motivations I can't really connect with.
The galaxy has become a sh*thole place, but the thing you're crying about is that you don't know who your parents are? Or you cry about Kylo's emotions? The d*ck killed his father, captured and tortured you, captured you again and delivered you to Snoke, leads the Space-Nazis......how about you try to make up a scheme how to kill him?

I mean, Luke sure wanted to find out who his father was as well, but he seemed to be more level-headed about it, with the real concerns going towards saving his friends and free the galaxy. Learning who his father was was a bonus (or as it turned out later, not so much of a pleasant surprise).

I think, cinematically, what Rey needs is a partner to have dialogue with, someone to mirror her inner thoughts.
Like in Star Wars IV when Luke tried to convince Han they had to save the princess, while Han talked about gold only, you know?
Some dialogue to show that she cared.

For me personally, most of the new characters don't work for me so well because they run into battle all too eagerly. They seem to be happy to fight. In the old series, the heroes fought in desperation. Luke fought in desperation.
(another point why I liked Rogue One so much. The heroes hate what they have to do. They are genuinely afraid to die. That's how you tell the story of a war against the empire).

If you make a farm-girl female hero, have her suffer at first and go through a long, learning heroe's journey with suffering and ups and downs and THEN have her beat the crap out of Darth Vader Varth Dader in part three. Important thing is she needs to go into some desperation first.

If you want a female super-fighter from the beginning of the movie, how about make her an actual Jedi from the Get-Go.
How? Simple, she hid on Gagodah the swamp arctic planet all the time. The emperor and Yoda just were WRONG when they told Luke he'd be the last one. She just hid so well, that's all. The Galaxy IS large.



Anyway, my sister just wasn't so much into reading extended literature. She prefers movies mostly.
And many people are like my sister. For them Star Wars is just that: the movies!
If they can put female heroes in the EU, why not in the movies as well? Why??? Because Hollywood

She shot at stormtroopers boarding her ship. She mouthed off the Vader and Tarkin both. She refused to give intel despite torture droids and Darth Vader combined interrogating her. She refused to give Intel despite her entire planet being threatened. She mouthed off to a stormtrooper ostensibly coming in to escort her to her death sentence. She took charge of her own rescue and rescued her rescuers.

About the only thing Han and Luke did that she didn't was fly against the Death Star. She's a badass space princess in the first movie. I'm not sure what else your sister could have wanted from her.

(emphasis mine)

Yeah, that might have done it. Remember, at the time she was like 12 or something. "Waiting to be rescued" is just not the most interesting part when you play-enact "Star Wars" with your friends as children.
Similar role is "commander". Sure, you and I agree that being commander is actually a great honor and shows how competent Leia really was, but children usually want the more directly-active roles like flying the starships or shooting the baddies, or fighting with the force. At least that's what my childhood experience was, anyone else's might be different.


And my sister did like the movies a lot, so I don't think it's a huge problem with the old movies anyways. I think what she liked most where Darth Vader and Han Solo, though.

ETA: I'm not dismissing your sisters opinions about Rey, I just feel like Leia gets less recognition than she deserves for being as tough as she was. Lord knows I couldn't do anywhere near half the things she did if I was in her shoes.

I totally agree with you, that when you look with mature, serious eyes at the Leia character, then she was one hell of a strong character, and I possibly could do like 5% of what she was capable of, on a good day of mine.

My point is that quite a couple people who go to the cineme for a fantasy sci-fi-opera, kinda want something else, you know? Someone who actively fights the baddies, dual-wielding lightsabres or somesuch

I remember right now that there was a Jedi woman in the prequels, I think. An alien one, who stood in front of the Jedi temple on Coruscant when Anakin or Obi-Wan or someone walked up the stairs. Didn't wield a lightsabre, though.....

Maybe in the huge battle in the arena also? But I don't remember seeing one there.


(disclaimer: honestly I don't even know whether my sister likes Rey soo much. I kinda just assumed because she liked the two new movies way more than I did, and Rey was one key difference, and she kinda looks similar to her, so......have to ask her next time )

[Baby Gary]

This is an interesting video about the TLJ and the comments section is interesting to read