So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

[Devonix]

If they really wanted to show that the attack was a futile, wasteful gesture, then it would have been better to show the attack on the gun failing despite being carried out successfully - the Resistance forces successfully reach the gun and do whatever it is that they were supposed to do, and yet despite that the First Order still breaches the gate without suffering any meaningful delay either because the Resistance forces cannot meaningfully damage the gun with the tools and time available or because the First Order doesn't actually need the siege gun to breach the gate - or to make it unambiguously clear that the attack had no even vaguely plausible chance of succeeding - e.g. the sci-fi snowsaltmobiles are virtually all destroyed almost before they're out of the gate by the walker firing line. Maybe also clearly show the attempt costing the Resistance forces too much to have any vaguely-plausible chance of holding out afterwards. Instead, the movie shows the attack failing because the attack leader called it off and the one guy who refused to acknowledge the recall order got attacked by one of his wingmen just when it looked like he'd accomplish the mission objective despite everything else. This is more like "you'll fail if you give up and then stab your friends in the back" than "heroic sacrifices are stupid, wasteful gestures which are doomed to failure."

The problem is that doing this would take away from Poe's character arc. Him calling off the attack when he realizes that it's pointless and would just get people killed in a pointless gesture. It's him making up for his mistake in the beginning of the film.

This is suppoed to be Poe's redemption.

[Zevox]

Except for Solo, we can all agree Solo sucked.

No, no we can't. Personally, I'd say Solo was decent, but just nothing special. Its greatest sin is just that it's mostly an average, forgettable film, with only one really memorable moment near the end.

The only recent Star Wars film that I'd say truly sucked is The Last Jedi. But on the flip side the only one I'd call truly good - the only one that made me leave the theater both pleased with what I'd watched and actually hopeful for what future films would bring - is Rogue One. The franchise's quality has just been very uneven since Disney got ahold of it.

[Devonix]

No, no we can't. Personally, I'd say Solo was decent, but just nothing special. Its greatest sin is just that it's mostly an average, forgettable film, with only one really memorable moment near the end.

The only recent Star Wars film that I'd say truly sucked is The Last Jedi. But on the flip side the only one I'd call truly good - the only one that made me leave the theater both pleased with what I'd watched and actually hopeful for what future films would bring - is Rogue One. The franchise's quality has just been very uneven since Disney got ahold of it.

And for me Rogue One is the worst of the lot. Solo made me wanna sleep. rogue one made me wanna leave.

[Sapphire Guard]

The problem is that doing this would take away from Poe's character arc. Him calling off the attack when he realizes that it's pointless and would just get people killed in a pointless gesture. It's him making up for his mistake in the beginning of the film.

This is suppoed to be Poe's redemption.

But... they all got killed anyway. There are thirteen speeders to start, at least eight are destroyed en route, and Finn and Rose ignore the order. So other than Poe himself, there are a maximum of two survivors as a result of calling off that attack. Very likely less depending on if any of them get onto the falcon. Do we see any of them but Poe himself return?

If this is supposed to be ineffective, the problem is that Finn thinks it will work. Finn is the FO tech expert, every other time Finn has given his opinion on FO tech, he has been completely correct, so if he's wrong now, we need some additional reason to think so, given he believes going straight down its throat will work.

TLJ, taken on its own, is an ok film with some ropey logic. It's not the crime against cinema it's taken to be, but when you examine the themes you get things like 'battles between good and evil will continue as long as corporations find them profitable, how awful. Brought to you by Disney, make sure and get your tickets for our theme park on the way out'

[Peelee]

One of the biggest complaints I saw levied at the prequels back in the day was that the ships looked too pristine and clean, that nothing looked like it could eventually become what we know in the OT. Now everyone is saying that the gradual evolution of technology appeal isn't what you want. So which is it?

Like in an actual, genuinely phrased way: which do you prefer? Do you prefer vastly different looking technology based on the era, or that gradual shift of something old, but modified over time? Because both have their merits and are interesting.

Star Wars is a used universe. Not everything is sterile and clean, things don't work perfectly, even the robots argue with each other, it's a world where you can see real people living. The prequels didn't have that. Theed didn't look like a city, it looked like an elaborate set. Same for the other locations we see. Coruscant looks sterile; it's new York City in I Love Lucy, supposedly busy and bustling but it's all just set dressing.

You can still have different and new technology, but just don't have it all sterilized and sanitized and plastic and fake looking.

[Dienekes]

One of the biggest complaints I saw levied at the prequels back in the day was that the ships looked too pristine and clean, that nothing looked like it could eventually become what we know in the OT. Now everyone is saying that the gradual evolution of technology appeal isn't what you want. So which is it?

Like in an actual, genuinely phrased way: which do you prefer? Do you prefer vastly different looking technology based on the era, or that gradual shift of something old, but modified over time? Because both have their merits and are interesting.

Really? Huh, I thought the pristine look was one of the few things I can say about the prequels in the positive. One look and it completely sells the idea that this era of the Republic is at its pinnacle. Everything is nice, clean, and pretty. Which we automatically contrast with the grime of the Imperial era.

Though, honestly now, I don't actually care all that much for the technology of Star Wars. I did not even notice that there were different types of Tie-Fighters in RotJ as opposed to ANH until someone pointed it out. And the only weapon that I took notice of as actually a cool iteration of an old design is Kylo's lightsaber. Crossguards are cool.

[Peelee]

Really? Huh, I thought the pristine look was one of the few things I can say about the prequels in the positive. One look and it completely sells the idea that this era of the Republic is at its pinnacle. Everything is nice, clean, and pretty. Which we automatically contrast with the grime of the Imperial era.

Except the Imperial weren't grimy. The Death Star floors were shiny and polished. The TIEs were uniformly painted. The military parts we see look like they are maintained with military precision. The non-military parts we see don't. This makes sense.

The Roman Empire at their height still got their feet dirty outside. The richest cities in the world don't have pristine streets. Some things looking clean and pretty makes sense - the Queen's ship, the Jedi Temple, etc. But everything looking clean? That doesn't make sense, because nobody lives in that world, and we're seeing a play with a carefully made up set.

[Blackhawk748]

He definitely subverted my expectations of seeing a good movie. Heyo!

For reals, though, I'm still excited for Ep. IX. Call me an eternal optimist.

I'll just call you crazy, but I've come into my cranky, jaded cynic phase fairly early in life. Mostly because the new stuff has been terrible compared to what I remember. The Yuuzhan Vong War was better than this.

There, I said it.

So, there you have it. Playing the hero will get the people you care about killed. You should shut up and do as you're told, or the true, gritty, non-heroic adults will have to step in to fix your mess. This is an unbelievably stupid moral for a heroic sci-fi film, executed in an unbelievably stupid way, but you can't deny it's there.

Gods, I hate Rian Johnson and the nihilistic faux intellectualism he represents so very much.

I agree. If this was some other IP, maybe Star Trek though that would still be bad by odds, that may have worked. But when you try that in Sci-Fantasy that takes heavy inspiration from Pulp Sci-Fi? Ya, no thanks. I want my crazy heroics. I want my long shot odds (when presented well thank you) I want my interesting characters (Finn. HE'S RIGHT THERE!!) What I don't want is this sad nihilistic message that heroics don't work.

I have 40k for that.

And that's probably the biggest reason I hate TLJ. Its not just the utter disdain he shows for worldbuilding (though that is a strong number 2) or the utter mess in which he leaves the trilogy (I don't much care for Abrams but I kinda feel for the guy having to work with this mess) its the fact that he decided to kill the mood as much as he did.

Star Wars came out during a rather down time for the US and it didn't reflect that time, at least not tonally. It was a movie with a happy ending and was generally upbeat. Even ESB, which is the darkest of the three ends on a hopeful note. The Rebellion is intact, more or less, they successfully evacuated Hoth with most of their forces, and they were safe for the moment to prepare for their next move. Yes, Han was captured, but Lando and Chewie seem confident they can find him and get him back. And so I felt confident that they would.

The only reason that I know the Resistance is gonna win is because I know that Disney will never go for the story in which they lose. The story doesn't tell me that. I don't feel hopeful that they can win after TLJ. They look utterly screwed to me.

I heard a great theory that Rey is actually a Sith spy and that's why she doesn't need training or why she seems so very aggressive when no one from the Resistance is around. The theory is cool, and I feel it would make a better film (like the Darth Darth Binks theory would have made the Prequels better. Well, that and a different voice for Jar Jar) but I know they won't do it. And frankly, I don't trust them to do it at this point.

Seriously, that lightsaber is all kinds of stupid. At least have it have to be off to unfold it. That's somewhat better.

[Dienekes]

Except the Imperial weren't grimy. The Death Star floors were shiny and polished. The TIEs were uniformly painted. The military parts we see look like they are maintained with military precision. The non-military parts we see don't. This makes sense.

The Roman Empire at their height still got their feet dirty outside. The richest cities in the world don't have pristine streets. Some things looking clean and pretty makes sense - the Queen's ship, the Jedi Temple, etc. But everything looking clean? That doesn't make sense, because nobody lives in that world, and we're seeing a play with a carefully made up set.

Oh I didn't say it was realistic. Just a quick visual signifier of living in the "great age of the past."

I don't expect any of Star Wars to be realistic, or for the setting to make much sense. They attack each other using WWII era equipment that shoots lasers.

[Peelee]

I'll just call you crazy,

Eh, close enough.

Oh I didn't say it was realistic. Just a quick visual signifier of living in the "great age of the past."

I don't expect any of Star Wars to be realistic, or for the setting to make much sense. They attack each other using WWII era equipment that shoots lasers.

That's no small part of the appeal of Star Wars, though. Star Trek, for its great stories, may as well have been filmed in a hospital. The only times Kirk encountered dirt were when it was plot-relevant. Star Wars showed us what it would look like to be a backwater farmer in the desert, or drinking in a seedy bar. The scenery had more than just aesthetic appeal, it had character. That's something the prequels lacked, and they suffered for it.

[Dienekes]

That's no small part of the appeal of Star Wars, though. Star Trek, for its great stories, may as well have been filmed in a hospital. The only times Kirk encountered dirt were when it was plot-relevant. Star Wars showed us what it would look like to be a backwater farmer in the desert, or drinking in a seedy bar. The scenery had more than just aesthetic appeal, it had character. That's something the prequels lacked, and they suffered for it.

It might have been for you. But honestly that doesn’t rank anywhere on my excessively long list of complaints about the prequels. And I hate those things more than most hate TLJ.

[Aeson]

Except the Imperial weren't grimy. The Death Star floors were shiny and polished. The TIEs were uniformly painted. The military parts we see look like they are maintained with military precision. The non-military parts we see don't. This makes sense.

The Roman Empire at their height still got their feet dirty outside. The richest cities in the world don't have pristine streets. Some things looking clean and pretty makes sense - the Queen's ship, the Jedi Temple, etc. But everything looking clean? That doesn't make sense, because nobody lives in that world, and we're seeing a play with a carefully made up set.

I'd note that for Theed we seem to mostly see the public and ceremonial spaces of the Palace and Palace grounds - the throne room, the hangar where the Queen's yacht is kept (which presumably doubles as a receiving area for important guests, especially considering that it's a very fancy hangar), and someone's nonsensical high-tech fantasy dungeon (complete with at least two bottomless pits that lack guardrails or other safety barriers - though only one has the almost-requiste OSHA-noncompliant catwalks - and a hallway with laser gates that open and close on a timer for no apparent reason; presumably there's a bunch of other high-tech deathtrap gizmos scattered about the place a la the accessway to the Omega-13 device in Galaxy Quest that just didn't get shown in the film) - and as for Kamino everything we see is basically a combination factory showroom / high-tech medical facility, plus reception for extremely wealthy customers or their accredited representatives.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

One of the biggest complaints I saw levied at the prequels back in the day was that the ships looked too pristine and clean, that nothing looked like it could eventually become what we know in the OT. Now everyone is saying that the gradual evolution of technology appeal isn't what you want. So which is it?

Like in an actual, genuinely phrased way: which do you prefer? Do you prefer vastly different looking technology based on the era, or that gradual shift of something old, but modified over time? Because both have their merits and are interesting.

You're conflating two different things, here:

1) The prequels were full of nice shiny just-walked-onto-a-theater-set ships and weapons and such.

2) Each of the prequels introduced lots of new and different droids, weapons, technology, species, etc. that showed a clear technological progression.

Point 1 is something people complained about a lot, and is more or less valid. Less valid in the case of Naboo, 'cause the whole point is that it's such a utopic peace-loving planet that their military is basically for show, they elected a teenager to the throne with no issue, and the Human/Gungan conflict manifested not as a war between them but as them basically deciding not to talk to each other any more, so having everything be ridiculously spotlessly clean without a blade of grass out of place makes perfect sense--plus, as Aeson noted, we're generally seeing the shiniest parts of the shiny planet, so that can skew perceptions--and more valid in the case of the Coruscant underworld, Geonosian tunnels, podracing arena, and other places where it was supposed to be more dirty and gritty but they missed the mark.

And as noted farther back, the overly-shiny effect was intentional, to contrast the state of the galaxy under the decadent Republic versus the oppressive Empire; yes, things didn't turn out as intended, necessarily, but they still did it as a deliberate design decision. The ST has that overly-shiny look in parts as well, but it's not intentional at all and even it were it wouldn't make any sense when the galaxy is supposed to be even worse off then than it was under the Empire.

Meanwhile, point 2 isn't something people complained about at all, and in fact people generally appreciate how the Republic troops and ships and such gradually become more Imperial over the course of AotC and RotS such that you can see how they end up at ANH 20 years later. More importantly, you see the same kind of progression within the OT itself, where point 1 isn't an issue at all, so "every new movie has new cool stuff" was well established long before the prequels.

Someone can dislike how effects were handled in the PT (point 1) while simultaneously praising the PT for its new goodies and visible tech progression and decrying the ST for the lack of same (point 2).

[Mechalich]

TLJ, taken on its own, is an ok film with some ropey logic. It's not the crime against cinema it's taken to be, but when you examine the themes you get things like 'battles between good and evil will continue as long as corporations find them profitable, how awful. Brought to you by Disney, make sure and get your tickets for our theme park on the way out'

While this is true, pretty much nothing with regard to a film that contains 'Episode VIII' in the title can be taken on its own. TLJ is not a crime against cinema, that's very true. It's a crime against Star Wars, both its fellow films and the larger franchise. TLJ makes choice after choice that, while artistically defensible in their own right, are downright insane when you consider that this is supposed to be the either part of a nine part story and the next movie is intended to be the climax. One of the central reasons the brief glimpses we've seen of Episode IX so far have felt so empty is that there are no hooks going back to the previous episodes. I mean, there is no principle villain for this new film so Palpatine is coming back from the dead is some fashion.

I'd note that for Theed we seem to mostly see the public and ceremonial spaces of the Palace and Palace grounds - the throne room, the hangar where the Queen's yacht is kept (which presumably doubles as a receiving area for important guests, especially considering that it's a very fancy hangar), and someone's nonsensical high-tech fantasy dungeon (complete with at least two bottomless pits that lack guardrails or other safety barriers - though only one has the almost-requiste OSHA-noncompliant catwalks - and a hallway with laser gates that open and close on a timer for no apparent reason; presumably there's a bunch of other high-tech deathtrap gizmos scattered about the place a la the accessway to the Omega-13 device in Galaxy Quest that just didn't get shown in the film) - and as for Kamino everything we see is basically a combination factory showroom / high-tech medical facility, plus reception for extremely wealthy customers or their accredited representatives.

There are some 'used universe' spaces in the Prequels. I mean, Tatooine gets visited, and so do some fairly grimy places like Utapau. However, overall the Prequels do look kind of off. I'm actually a proponent of the theory (which I originally got from Michael Bay's description of how they put together the transformers films), that the lighting in the Prequels is off for a large number of the digital creations, including the backdrops to many sets and it doesn't look real as a result. That's really not surprising. Lucas really pushed the technical envelop with the Prequels and there were some things that didn't quite get there and as a result they look 'too clean' in the same way that early Pixar movies do. General Grievous is a good example - his digital model is like 1/10th as complex as that of any of the Transformers from the 2007 film, a difference of only two years of technical development.

I think you could digitally restore the Prequels and make them look much more Star Wars-y using modern digital tools, though I'm pretty sure the Disney purchase agreement doesn't allow that.

[Reddish Mage]

Star Wars is a used universe. Not everything is sterile and clean, things don't work perfectly, even the robots argue with each other, it's a world where you can see real people living. The prequels didn't have that. Theed didn't look like a city, it looked like an elaborate set. Same for the other locations we see. Coruscant looks sterile; it's new York City in I Love Lucy, supposedly busy and bustling but it's all just set dressing.

You can still have different and new technology, but just don't have it all sterilized and sanitized and plastic and fake looking.

It seems so obviously glaring to the eye the minute from the opening in Episode I and beyond that it is hardly worth discussing. Who would say they prefer the prequels?

It might have been for you. But honestly that doesn’t rank anywhere on my excessively long list of complaints about the prequels. And I hate those things more than most hate TLJ.

Oh...

It seems to a very large segment of the fandom that the prequels is a glaring departure from the aesthetics of the original that doesn't seem like the same universe. The gritty elements of the first one lends itself to the feel that these ships and places and technology is actually real and lived in.

The particular aesthetic seems almost unique to Star Wars, especially in the era where it was so far ahead of its big-budget competitors the low-budget ANH left all other sci-fi movies in the dusk.

Moreover, changing the aesthetic of sci-fi as technology changes and taste evolves tend to make sense, but in the case of the prequels, the CGI is just too obvious, the sets are just too clean, by itself it might be critiqued as too obviously artificial, like an early Jupiter Ascending. It just doesn't work.

Disney may have hewed too close in the opposite directions, as we see the exact same designs as in the OT for the ships. TLJ tries to add some new ships, but starting with WWII-era slow heavy bombers that use round balls and gravity in space seems like a move backwards.

Oddly, I don't feel the same way about Star Trek changing up their aesthetics, that just feels right to me...odd.

[Peelee]

It might have been for you. But honestly that doesn’t rank anywhere on my excessively long list of complaints about the prequels. And I hate those things more than most hate TLJ.

Totally understandable, I'll cop to that.

I'd note that for Theed we seem to mostly see the public and ceremonial spaces of the Palace and Palace grounds - the throne room, the hangar where the Queen's yacht is kept (which presumably doubles as a receiving area for important guests, especially considering that it's a very fancy hangar), and someone's nonsensical high-tech fantasy dungeon (complete with at least two bottomless pits that lack guardrails or other safety barriers - though only one has the almost-requiste OSHA-noncompliant catwalks - and a hallway with laser gates that open and close on a timer for no apparent reason; presumably there's a bunch of other high-tech deathtrap gizmos scattered about the place a la the accessway to the Omega-13 device in Galaxy Quest that just didn't get shown in the film) - and as for Kamino everything we see is basically a combination factory showroom / high-tech medical facility, plus reception for extremely wealthy customers or their accredited representatives.

We see a street in Theed, possibly palace grounds but possibly not, that was supposedly abandoned in a hurry when an invading force arrived. No blaster marks, no scuffs, nothing dropped, that was the cleanest possible takeover where they didn't even have a little girl drop her stuffed bantha or anything. Buildings show no sign of normal wear and tear through weathering or simple passage of time,no sun damage, it's like they were built yesterday. We see an average street in Otoh Gunga, no trash, no water stains, this is the cleanest planet I've ever seen. Outside landing platforms on Coruscant have no oil stains, seedy area around bar with death-stick pushers and nary a bit of graffiti to be seen, the skies a CONSTANT stream of vehicles moving in neat, orderly lines, despite that airspeeders early have full autonomy as Anakin and Zam Wessel demonstrate but everyone is going the exact same speed and nobody is jockeying for position or trying to pass or cutting anyone else off, would you believe that each and every one of the trillion-plus people on the planet are just hell-bent on giving the damndest display of civic-mindedness I've ever seen after that Columbo episode, Murder Under Glass (little joke there for ya).

[Saintheart]

The problem of overly-shiny ships in the PT versus the OT comes down to the lack of texture, or contrast in the setting and the characters.

The PT's problem is that it's basically the same: whether you go from Naboo to Mustafar, everything just lacks a certain distinctiveness. Mustafar is still as gorgeous as a painting even though it's meant to be a dirty mining facility. Geonosis has something approaching dust in it, but the whole PT looks like it was filmed against bluescreen as well as being pretty clearly acted that way. That is in part because, well, it was done all against bluescreen, and digital filmmaking was in its infancy yada yada yada, but that same-y feeling detracts from the audience experience.

The OT, at least, did have some contrasts. As noted further up, the Imperial ships look military and clean and just feel imposing; Rebel ships are clean-ish but are more rounded, there's a different aesthetic even in the room layouts, better lit, different colour scheme, and so on. And then contrast that with Tatooine. Or Dagobah.

That contrast is a big part of what's missing in the PT. About the only time we get a touch of this contrast is on Kamino, and that's because it's raining all the time - again, some texture is finally added, without Ewan McGregor looking like a drowned rat most of the time the place's feel and aesthetic is no different to Coruscant. Part of the reason it looks same-y is because of the cinematographer: David Tattersall, who did all three films.

(In passing, in the OT, it's Bespin that gets as close as one gets to a PT-looking location. But even then the dreamy, pleasant aesthetic of Bespin is intentional because it's a trap, it has another face: Bespin looks beautiful on the outside, but get into the workshops and the carbon freezing chambers and it is almost -- almost -- like another world, with only the motifs of gas and mist remaining -- and those turned sinister; the contrast is between Morlocks and Eloi; compare the beautiful people and the Ugnaughts who work the machines on Bespin. I think the cinematography of the OT is at its strongest in Empire Strikes Back, and that's largely due to Peter Suschitzky, who turned in a beautiful-looking film. He was also the guy who created the look of the lightsabers in the first film. Interestingly, he also had a lot less experience than Alan Hume, who followed him on ROTJ, or Gilbert Taylor, who was the cinematographer for ANH.)

Return of the Jedi is nowhere near as strong at conveying these contrasts; everything looks like it was filmed, you can too easily imagine the key grip sitting eating a sandwich just out of frame. That's one of the reasons it's the one mediocre or bad film in the OT.

The ST does try a bit harder, but we've got the problem of same-y-ness again because again they've got the same cinematographer in all three: Dan Mindel. If the ST feels like Abrams Star Trek, that's probably the biggest reason why: because it's the same guy in all cases prescribing/providing the colour scheme, lighting, and visual feel of the film. It's a very mid-2000s-feeling film, which isn't a great thing.

[Peelee]

(In passing, in the OT, it's Bespin that gets as close as one gets to a PT-looking location. But even then the dreamy, pleasant aesthetic of Bespin is intentional because it's a trap, it has another face: Bespin looks beautiful on the outside, but get into the workshops and the carbon freezing chambers and it is almost -- almost -- like another world, with only the motifs of gas and mist remaining -- and those turned sinister; the contrast is between Morlocks and Eloi; compare the beautiful people and the Ugnaughts who work the machines on Bespin. I think the cinematography of the OT is at its strongest in Empire Strikes Back, and that's largely due to Peter Suschitzky, who turned in a beautiful-looking film. He was also the guy who created the look of the lightsabers in the first film. Interestingly, he also had a lot less experience than Alan Hume, who followed him on ROTJ, or Gilbert Taylor, who was the cinematographer for ANH.)

Exactly. Bespin was a Potemkin village; a fantastic visual show, but it's carefully controlled and doesn't represent the whole.

The devil is in the details, and boy did the OT ever bring the details.

[Zevox]

And for me Rogue One is the worst of the lot. Solo made me wanna sleep. rogue one made me wanna leave.

I know - we've had that discussion before. I just didn't want to let the Solo comment pass uncontested, since I honestly view it as basically the exact middle of the pack of major Star Wars films, and though throwing out the comparison to the other recent Star Wars films would help put where I view the films in perspective for anyone who didn't know.

[Hopeless]

Yes I'd agree Rogue One is the best Disney Star Wars movie so far but its far from perfect.

Solo clearly needed more work for example have Han rescue those Wookies off of Kessel so not only do we have a reason Lando was able to lift off so soon since he would have engineers repairing the damage Han caused but add a scene where the Wookies are talking to Next or her crew thus explaining WHY she took the risk of asking Han to help her instead of killing them.

Rogue One I'm sorry I don't agree with the way they handled the ending, I'd have changed that sequence on the beach to a dream sequence and have Jyn wake up in that elevator with sirens going off.

THAT is a hardened Imperial Facility and should have several levels deep underground enough to withstand that low charge Death Star blast that only took out its com tower.

You have a tv series involving two of that cast and what better way to encourage interest than to have the pair survive that movie so you can start your prequel series with the hint it will deal with events AFTER Rogue One?!

The Force Awakens was okay as a starting movie, but The Last Jedi... my god I'm sorry I've already posted an extended alteration of that mess and I'm trying to stop myself doing that AGAIN thank you!

Personally I'd start off episode 9 with Finn waking up from his coma revealing all of episode 8 was a really bad force vision.

Then use the basics of that movie into something a hell of a lot better to reveal for example a Council of Inquisitors is behind the whole scheme with Kylo the way he is because Palpatine tried to possess him whilst he was still gestating inside Leia explaining her comments about Ben's darkness.

Crap I'm doing it again!

[hamishspence]

THAT is a hardened Imperial Facility and should have several levels deep underground enough to withstand that low charge Death Star blast that only took out its com tower.

A near miss is as good as a hit, when it comes to seismic shocks. Especially when you look at what was done to Jedha earlier in the movie.

[Zalabim]

This thread moves too fast

They go looking for any pilot with a fast ship. They happen to find a pilot with a fast ship (in the movie, nothing whatsoever shows that he is the best, or even in the top 10; Kenobi clearly doesn't believe he's boasting, and most of his value comes from the ship being fast, not his own abilities). They find this pilot with a fast ship while specifically looking for any pilot with a fast ship in a place known for having pilots and asking around. We even see another person refer Kenobi to Chewbacca.

Finn and Rose are looking for one specific person who is called out as one of the few people having the skill to do this requirement, in a place where that specific person happens to be and has no indication of being a hangout for master codebreakers, in jail that they did not mean to be in, fortunately in the same cell, and while the person had not yet escaped for unknown reasons despite being able to escape at any time. Literally every single part of that was luck. They were lucky to be on the same planet as DJ, they were lucky to be thrown in the jail DJ was in, they were lucky to be in the same cell, they were lucky to be there before he escaped... if DJ had not been there, they would have failed. If Han had not been in the cantina, they would have found another pilot with a fast ship who may or may not have still been able to help escape the Death Star.

It's not expected that the heroes luck into finding the person they need. If you expect that, you're expecting bad writing. If Johnson wanted to subvert the expectation of bad writing, I would have welcomed that. He did not.

As a point of order, Finn and Rose still fail. They just fail later, and worse, because of meeting DJ. Yes, I'm going somewhere with this.

When he can escape at any time, it's not superfluous. There should be a reason he hasn't escaped yet.

"The Force works in mysterious ways" is, not to put too fine a point on it, bullhonkey. Might as well say a wizard did it. It makes for lazy storytelling.

He wasn't livable at any point, and at all times was a shady, shifty scoundrel. If that's what it's supposed to deconstruct, it did a poor job of it. Putting the "obvious betrayer" trope in Groucho Marx glasses doesn't make it a deconstruction of the "lovable scoundrel" trope.

I'd have to rewatch it, but maybe he hasn't escaped yet because he hasn't had anything better to do yet. The Resistance is offering him a job now so yeah. Let's go. He's not lovable, but he does get a ship and pick them up out of the forest. So he seems helpful.

And ultimately, that's okay, in a sense. DJ's not really a character so much as a plot device to highlight Finn and Rose's failure. That would be fine, if Finn and Rose's failure, or Finn and Rose's plotline overall, went anywhere in this film. Since that doesn't happen, it's all just a waste of space. Lando's redemption was a major subplot of ROTJ and provided a nice character for the fleet portions of the Battle of Endor. DJ is unlikely to even appear in Rise of the Skywalker - Benicio del Toro is not listed on IMDB as being in the film - so the character by himself is pointless.

Poe, Finn, and Rose's plot fails, causing Holdo's plan to fail, but also leaving Holdo the tool that destroys the Supremacy and gives our heroes the opportunity to escape. If Holdo's plan would fail on its own as Poe believed, then they'd just all be dead. If Finn and Rose brought a trustworthy code breaker who wouldn't sell them out immediately, they might be dead, and would at least still be prisoners of the First Order. Them all trying and all failing combines into a lot of little events that leads to the Supremacy being severely damaged and Finn, Rose, and Rey all escape in the aftermath. The mysterious ways of the Force?

[Mechalich]

Poe, Finn, and Rose's plot fails, causing Holdo's plan to fail, but also leaving Holdo the tool that destroys the Supremacy and gives our heroes the opportunity to escape. If Holdo's plan would fail on its own as Poe believed, then they'd just all be dead. If Finn and Rose brought a trustworthy code breaker who wouldn't sell them out immediately, they might be dead, and would at least still be prisoners of the First Order. Them all trying and all failing combines into a lot of little events that leads to the Supremacy being severely damaged and Finn, Rose, and Rey all escape in the aftermath. The mysterious ways of the Force?

Holdo's plan fails entirely on its own. The First Order doesn't need any input from DJ to run a de-cloaking scan when the Resistance finally reaches proximity of the first object during the entire chase that they might plausibly evacuate too, that should simply be SOP.

[Narkis]

that should simply be SOP.

And yet it isn't. Holdo's plan relies on the First Order being incompetent, and the First Order proves to be exactly that. If not for DJ, they would never have thought to scan for cloaked transports. It would have succeeded, if not for the foolish heroes' foolish heroics.

[Peelee]

Wookies

Wookiees. 2 E's.

This thread moves too fast

As a point of order, Finn and Rose still fail. They just fail later, and worse, because of meeting DJ. Yes, I'm going somewhere with this.

I'd have to rewatch it, but maybe he hasn't escaped yet because he hasn't had anything better to do yet. The Resistance is offering him a job now so yeah. Let's go. He's not lovable, but he does get a ship and pick them up out of the forest. So he seems helpful.

They fail later, but he gets them out of jail. If he wasn't there they would not rejoin the Resistance because they would be stuck in jail. He's a bad plot device dressed up as a character; may as well have Finn find a lockpick and codebreaker device and the First Order be marginally more competent and you have the exact same movie. Especially if he hasn't escaped because he doesn't have anything better to do... I've already compared him to an 8-bit RPG NPC, but that just strengthens the analogy. Good to know he'd sit in jail forever unless he meets someone who can offer a job.

[Devonix]

Holdo's plan fails entirely on its own. The First Order doesn't need any input from DJ to run a de-cloaking scan when the Resistance finally reaches proximity of the first object during the entire chase that they might plausibly evacuate too, that should simply be SOP.

Holdo's plan doesn't fail on it's own. You believe that her plan should have failed, but that is in direct contradiction with what actually happens. Her plan was 100 percent working, until DJ informs the First order about it.

Saying that her plan was going to fail is basically making up fanfiction.

[Narkis]

He's a bad plot device dressed up as a character; may as well have Finn find a lockpick and codebreaker device and the First Order be marginally more competent and you have the exact same movie.

Or they could have Rose park on the spaceport instead of a random beach, and avoid the jail altogether. This movie is fractally wrong. You'll find problems in pretty much anything you try to analyze.

[Peelee]

Or they could have Rose park on the spaceport instead of a random beach, and avoid the jail altogether. This movie is fractally wrong. You'll find problems in pretty much anything you try to analyze.

They could have even solved it with one line! "we don't have the funds to afford docking fees" or "spaceport is full, we need to put down elsewhere." Two seconds to have that make any amount of sense. Two seconds too much, it seems.

[Devonix]

For want of a nail the shoe was lost,
for want of a shoe the horse was lost;
and for want of a horse the rider was lost;
being overtaken and slain by the enemy,
all for want of care about a horse-shoe nail.

[Narkis]

They could have even solved it with one line! "we don't have the funds to afford docking fees" or "spaceport is full, we need to put down elsewhere." Two seconds to have that make any amount of sense. Two seconds too much, it seems.

And then we'd be asking why choose a packed beach instead of the abandoned wilderness they run off to later.