[3.5] Otyugh Hole: Who uses it? Why? How?

[ErrantX]

I've seen a lot of mention of using the special location from Comp Scoundrel called the Otyugh Hole, where folks go and get Iron Will for 3k gold. Okay, so, umm.... what?

Let me explain. I understand from a CharOp perspective. It's a feat for basically free. Iron Will is often a PreReq feat, or at the very least shores up a weak Will save from multiclassing. Okay, I get that.

Who actually uses this in their games? Why do you use it (beyond the obvious above)? How do you justify it in game? Who voluntarily jumps into such a rancid pit and hangs out? This is something I just don't get. How do people use it in their games to justify IN CHARACTER why they're doing this, or is this something you ask your DM to use and have them torture their PC for the feat?

Just a curiosity. Help a man out and tell him what you do and think on the subject.

Thanks!
-X

[deuxhero]

Most classes that need iron will/skill focus are weaker even without the requirements.

[Douglas]

Most classes that need iron will/skill focus are weaker even without the requirements.

Incantatrix.

[Sinfire Titan]

Incantatrix.

Ur-Priest.

[Kantolin]

Why do you use it (beyond the obvious above)? How do you justify it in game? Who voluntarily jumps into such a rancid pit and hangs out?

Both in real life and especially in a fantasy setting, people are willing to do astonishing things for the purpose of power. Heck, people are willing to do amazing things for the /potential/ for power - they just have to think it works.

Now, it states 'But those who survive the ordeal become underworld legends'. I can think of a bunch of people and archetypes who, hearing that, would go attempt that to one-up the previous legend, to prove themselves, to show off, or because the fact that /Joe/ of all people went through it and now everyone's busy watching /Joe/ and nobody's noting your accomplishments just because he went and sat in a pit for awhile...

[2xMachina]

Well, it's pretty IC to go get the feats from somewhere rather than spend the rare feats you get.

Sit in a pit for a week or spend 1/7 of my lifelong resource. I'd rather sit.

[Zaydos]

We're talking people who sale their souls for power here. People who will do unspeakable acts for it. So yes if the place is supposed to give power I can think of many people who wouldn't even hesitate.

Of characters I've played:
Zantar: He'd have gone, this will make me more capable of defending my friends and loved ones against the aberrant hordes I fight against. It will make me smell for a bit. This is gross. And then have gone in. He had 4 good will save classes too so he didn't need another +2.
"Laughing Tom": Ooh smelly hole. Strange magic this be... I will investigate. Ooh cool it made my will stronger... He'd go in just from curiosity, if he knew its effect he'd go to discover how it works.
Erdrick: No. He was a fighter barbarian with a hatred and superstition of magic.
Nent: I forget. Possibly he'd be willing to do it out of curiosity or if other PCs were doing it but he wasn't out for power.
Uskgix (dragon wyrmling cohort the party picked up/raised): I need to get stronger to help my foster parents. Oh gods this is going to stink. Dives in.

So I can see characters doing it.

[ErrantX]

Well, it's pretty IC to go get the feats from somewhere rather than spend the rare feats you get.

Sit in a pit for a week or spend 1/7 of my lifelong resource. I'd rather sit.

Yes, but in IC, do you really understand how that works? Do you know how many feats you personally have IRL? I can't follow your logic there.

How do you, as a DM, work this in? How do you, as a PC, decide to research such a thing and then dive into the cesspit?

-X

[deuxhero]

Ur-Priest.

I said "most".

[Heliomance]

Erdrick: No. He was a fighter barbarian with a hatred and superstition of magic.

The Otyugh hole isn't magic. It's simply the worst prison in the world. Spending a week in it scars you irrevocably, and the Iron Will feat represents the mental shields you had to lock around your psyche to avoid going mad.

[Zaydos]

The Otyugh hole isn't magic. It's simply the worst prison in the world. Spending a week in it scars you irrevocably, and the Iron Will feat represents the mental shields you had to lock around your psyche to avoid going mad.

Then Erdrick would laugh and go right in to prove his manliness; plus mental shields are good, they help you kill vile wizards.

Although Nent almost certaintly wouldn't in that case.

Tom would for fun; can't be worse than his old teacher. Zantar might not. Uskgix would.

[FishAreWet]

Everytime I've ever seen it taken, it's worked into backstory.

Which is really simple to do. What adventurer hasn't been to prison?

[Heliomance]

I would imagine it's the kind of place that, no matter how gung-ho you were going in, afterwards everyone has the "You don't KNOW, man! You weren't THERE!" reaction to their time in it.

[Akal Saris]

I've never bothered to use the otyugh pit on a character (in part because I haven't played a character with a PrC that required Iron Will yet), but I'd probably go with the "magical prison changes a man" backstory.

Though I probably wouldn't allow my PCs to "buy" the location as part of their backstory unless that PC's character was much weaker than the rest of the party. "Free" feats, especially when linked to incantatrix and the like, are not generally something I like to see in-game. Especially when some of my games already give out free feats via corruption/depravity rules.

[jiriku]

Mmm, I used the Otyugh Hole to pick up Iron Will for my incantatrix. He's a homicidal, pyromaniac githyanki sorcerer specializing in all manner of destructive magics. It's not hard to imagine how such a character might find himself thrown into such an awful prison.

[Bibliomancer]

So, the associated gp cost is similar to that of a magic location, meaning that the DM subtracts it from the party wealth, correct? Why would the other players agree to lose money so that you could get a feat?

An interesting, if overpowered, concept. Shouldn't it be a permanent +2 bonus on will saves, so that you can train to improve your willpower even more and to avoid using it to qualify for prestige classes?

[FishAreWet]

So, the associated gp cost is similar to that of a magic location, meaning that the DM subtracts it from the party wealth, correct? Why would the other players agree to lose money so that you could get a feat?

No, you buy it with your Wealth By Level.

[Sinfire Titan]

So, the associated gp cost is similar to that of a magic location, meaning that the DM subtracts it from the party wealth, correct? Why would the other players agree to lose money so that you could get a feat?

An interesting, if overpowered, concept. Shouldn't it be a permanent +2 bonus on will saves, so that you can train to improve your willpower even more and to avoid using it to qualify for prestige classes?

No, and no.

[Glass Mouse]

So, the Otyugh Hole is a horrible prison... which stinks... which you have to develop a mental shield against in order to avoid insanity?

Why ever would you have to pay 3k gold for that?

(yes, I'm more concerned with the IC reasons for paying that... Does the GM really go "Yeah, so you murdered that entire orphanage; these guys are throwing you in jail... and charging you 3k to do it!"?)

[Longcat]

Let's see: I've already forsaken the gods, and in some settings (e.g. Forgotten Realms), severe punishment ensues. Compared to that, a few days in some stinking hole don't seem that bad.

At the very least, there won't be any non-consensual intercourse in the shower room.

[Milskidasith]

So, the Otyugh Hole is a horrible prison... which stinks... which you have to develop a mental shield against in order to avoid insanity?

Why ever would you have to pay 3k gold for that?

(yes, I'm more concerned with the IC reasons for paying that... Does the GM really go "Yeah, so you murdered that entire orphanage; these guys are throwing you in jail... and charging you 3k to do it!"?)

Could be reparations for your crime, or just subtracted from the next loot pile, or in your backstory.

[Douglas]

Why ever would you have to pay 3k gold for that?

(yes, I'm more concerned with the IC reasons for paying that... Does the GM really go "Yeah, so you murdered that entire orphanage; these guys are throwing you in jail... and charging you 3k to do it!"?)

You don't. The 3k value is only for WBL purposes. If you create a character above level 1, you can insert the location into your backstory and gain its benefit by sacrificing - out of game, in character building - that amount of money. If you encounter the location in game and the DM is carefully monitoring and controlling the amount of equipment you get, he counts getting the location's benefit as equivalent to 3k gold worth of loot. If you, as a player, visit the location in game and stay there long enough to qualify, you get the benefit free of charge.

[Sinfire Titan]

So, the Otyugh Hole is a horrible prison... which stinks... which you have to develop a mental shield against in order to avoid insanity?

Why ever would you have to pay 3k gold for that?

(yes, I'm more concerned with the IC reasons for paying that... Does the GM really go "Yeah, so you murdered that entire orphanage; these guys are throwing you in jail... and charging you 3k to do it!"?)

Fining you 3K in reparations and jail time. Sounds about right.

[Signmaker]

Free fuel for a chaos swap. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Alternatively, you could be level 20+ and realize that a free feat for 3000 gp, even one not immediately useful, is still useful.

[Twilight Jack]

Based upon this cost, would it then be reasonable to state that a wondrous item which grants access to a feat when worn should be worth about the same amount?

I've always wondered why a crafter couldn't install a feat into an item for the wearer/bearer's use. I've never found any rules for it at any rate. The metamagic rods might have been a good baseline, but they are so very specific in their functions that I felt they didn't make a very good baseline.

[Tyndmyr]

Based upon this cost, would it then be reasonable to state that a wondrous item which grants access to a feat when worn should be worth about the same amount?

That feat, yes...worth 3k. Any other feat, worth 3k, plus cost of chaos shuffle via scrolls.

After all, Iron Will, while not terrible, isn't exactly the most powerful of feats.

[Zaydos]

Crystal Mask of Mind Shielding (I forget the exact name, from XPH and MIC) grants a +4 Insight bonus to Will saves for 10,000 GP; that is 5/8th the cost of a cloak of resistance +4 (+4 resistance bonus to all saves). So I'd say a +X Y bonus to Will saves is 5/8ths that of +X resistance bonus to all (and a Y bonus to all is normally double). So 2500 for a +2 to Will saves (with body slot) is fairly reasonable; as this stacks with everything normally it would be slightly higher; I actually had my DM allow a +2 competence bonus to Will saves item.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Spending a week in a horrible place could be construed as a rite of passage.

Barbarians would do it.

[averagejoe]

Fining you 3K in reparations and jail time. Sounds about right.

Now I have images of adventurers insisting that they be punished by being thrown into the otyugh hole, against the fairminded judgment of the public officials.

[Grumman]

I have used it at character creation, because it helps define the character background and also helps me meet the prerequisites for a few PrCs. As this particular adventurer's origin story is basically "Got kidnapped, got turned into a Spellwarped, escaped her captor", starting off with Iron Will but a lot less equipment than her comrades makes sense.

So, the Otyugh Hole is a horrible prison... which stinks... which you have to develop a mental shield against in order to avoid insanity?

Why ever would you have to pay 3k gold for that?

You don't - you get thrown into that dark pit and have to fight your way out, but you don't get any worthwhile loot from the things you kill. You don't pay 3,000 gp for the privilige, you just lose 3,000 gp in opportunity cost.

Alternatively (the way I treated it), you get your ~3,000 gp of stuff confiscated and it becomes part of some NPC's treasure.