Minimum requirements for Tippyverse?

[WarKitty]

What are the minimum requirements you'd need for the Tippyverse phenomenon to come into effect? It seems to be some combination of number and level of spellcasters - a bunch of level 1 spellcasters aren't going to trigger it, obviously, but a handful of level 20's will.

Personally, I run a world where casters are fairly common, but even big cities tend to max out at level 5 or 6 characters. Higher-level stuff typically wants to keep to itself. This seems to work for the most part.

[Coidzor]

Most major cities having ties to an 11th level wizard and anyone with create food and water as a spell or SLA, or an artificer to supply scrolls of the spell/an item to provide a source for it, I think can start up most of it. The mind rape and teleportation circles require a 17th level wizard or the ability to bind something to provide those services.

At least, from what I recall, it's a surprisingly low level that can start off most of it.

[HunterOfJello]

Polymorph is a 4th level spell and Teleport is a 5th level spell. Those two spells alone would massively change entire societies towards becoming closer to Tippyverses.

Is there a definitive definition of what a Tippyverse is anywhere?

[Arcanist]

I have a campaign that my players are just starting that uses some Tippyverse mechanics

You need Teleportation circles for faster trade and travel, Create food and Water + Prestidigitation traps, Spell trap training facilities that use modify memory to make the CR for the trap effectively the same each time while giving you XP

All in all it is fairly easy to create a Tippyverse. Sustaining it and keeping the players that inhabit it in check is another thing... Personally, I just use the same idea that the Forgotten Realms use ("There is always a bigger fish").

[WarKitty]

Polymorph is a 4th level spell and Teleport is a 5th level spell. Those two spells alone would massively change entire societies towards becoming closer to Tippyverses.

Is there a definitive definition of what a Tippyverse is anywhere?

Probably not anything definitive. It's more an exercise in how magic affects society and how much.

It seems like there's two major breaking points. One is the widespread availability of 4th and 5th level spells (a handful of casters with teleport won't change much, but a few in each city will). Another seems to be when you have a small number of level 15+ casters that want to be involved.

[dascarletm]

What are the minimum requirements you'd need for the Tippyverse phenomenon to come into effect? It seems to be some combination of number and level of spellcasters - a bunch of level 1 spellcasters aren't going to trigger it, obviously, but a handful of level 20's will.

Personally, I run a world where casters are fairly common, but even big cities tend to max out at level 5 or 6 characters. Higher-level stuff typically wants to keep to itself. This seems to work for the most part.

You also need modern philosophy and ways of thinking of things.

An incompetent upper-class unable to get powerful spell-casters to work for them as well.

[Ubercaledor]

Polymorph is a 4th level spell and Teleport is a 5th level spell. Those two spells alone would massively change entire societies towards becoming closer to Tippyverses.

Is there a definitive definition of what a Tippyverse is anywhere?

GIYF

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222007

[toapat]

Is there a definitive definition of what a Tippyverse is anywhere?

of course, and who else would have defined it?

[The Random NPC]

The Definitive Guide to the TIppyverse!
Also, all that is needed is routine use of teleporting, with teleport circles being the most permanent.

EDIT:Ninja'd

[ThiagoMartell]

You also need modern philosophy and ways of thinking of things.

An incompetent upper-class unable to get powerful spell-casters to work for them as well.

Yes, the bolded part is the most important.

[WarKitty]

You also need modern philosophy and ways of thinking of things.

An incompetent upper-class unable to get powerful spell-casters to work for them as well.

Could you clarify? It seems the problem with tippyverse arises just as much if the upper class can get powerful spell-casters to work for them. After all, get your spellcaster to buff your army and teleport it.

[dascarletm]

Could you clarify? It seems the problem with tippyverse arises just as much if the upper class can get powerful spell-casters to work for them. After all, get your spellcaster to buff your army and teleport it.

well those are all modern tactics. (modern para-trooper esque). I can go on with other Tippyverse things.

The counter-argument is that if these things exist and are similar to modern technologies, then modern tactics would also develop. That, however, is debatable. Magic (in many campaign settings) is only usable by some, understood by few, and usually not widespread.

Another thing is that to keep the status quo the upper-class needs to keep the lower class, well, low.

[Aegis013]

You also need modern philosophy and ways of thinking of things.

An incompetent upper-class unable to get powerful spell-casters to work for them as well.

Or you need the upper-class to be the powerful spell-casters.

[Malroth]

Yes but any upper class member who can't roll a DC 15+ will save at least 75% of the time isn't going to stay upper class for long.

[WarKitty]

well those are all modern tactics. (modern para-trooper esque). I can go on with other Tippyverse things.

The counter-argument is that if these things exist and are similar to modern technologies, then modern tactics would also develop. That, however, is debatable. Magic (in many campaign settings) is only usable by some, understood by few, and usually not widespread.

Another thing is that to keep the status quo the upper-class needs to keep the lower class, well, low.

Personally, I think with the intellect that high-level casters have in many settings, it would likely develop. It's fairly easy to get a score over 30.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Here's Emperor Tippy's thread explaining tippyverse.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222007

Short answer without teleportation circle it isn't tippyverse. Free Create food and water and other magical services can improve the lives of the common folk but it's teleportation circle that really gets the ball rolling. It basically makes all other forms of transport obsolete and makes wizards fabulously wealthy. Military applications of teleportation circle require cities to become dense enough that protecting them from teleporting armies is feasable. This requires the create food and water traps because farmlands are too vast to be protected. That's a common misconception about tippyverse create food and water traps are a necessary product of tippyverse not the cause.

Shorter answer: Magitech conveniences don't cause tippyverse, their just nice and possibly profitable.

[Arcanist]

well those are all modern tactics. (modern para-trooper esque). I can go on with other Tippyverse things.

The counter-argument is that if these things exist and are similar to modern technologies, then modern tactics would also develop. That, however, is debatable. Magic (in many campaign settings) is only usable by some, understood by few, and usually not widespread.

During the "Excursion Into Extinction" to prevent the enemies from retreating the Netherese effectively surrounded the entire battlefield with gates that teleported the fleeing enemies into a death camp. The Orcs, honestly never stood a chance. Large scale Napoleonic battles would have effectively be acts of genecide in and of itself, the likes of which the battle of Stalingrad would look like a walk through teddy bear junction so please don't try and weaponize magic...

When you make a gun, someone will make a bulletproof vest, and then someone will make armor piecing bullets and so on and so forth. In a magical sense it would be Magic Missile < Shield < Fireball < Fire Immunity and so on and so forth until we all kill ourselves...

Another thing is that to keep the status quo the upper-class needs to keep the lower class, well, low.

I agree, leave the lower class (everyone middle class and under) at Cantrips and even then leave them to strictly core. If a middle class citizen shows potential for higher levels of magic, allow him/her to study greater aptitudes of magic.

Seriously, the Netherese really got the whole Tippyverse thing going real easy

[Ashtagon]

One thing I don't get about the TV.

Okay, you can stop your enemy from teleporting into your city. But what's to stop him teleporting a few dozen (or hundred) feet outside, stripping down your magical defences from there, then following up with a larger force teleported in once the magic anti-tp defences are down?

[WarKitty]

One thing I don't get about the TV.

Okay, you can stop your enemy from teleporting into your city. But what's to stop him teleporting a few dozen (or hundred) feet outside, stripping down your magical defences from there, then following up with a larger force teleported in once the magic anti-tp defences are down?

My impression is it's pretty hard to strip defenses, especially since a city with basic needs met could devote a large amount of resources to defense.

[Malroth]

The fact that your golems, troops and casters are already there in position, the point isn't to prevent them from transporting into your city, its to make it pointless to do so by having enough force already in place, hence the small densely populated areas.

[Ashtagon]

The fact that your golems, troops and casters are already there in position, the point isn't to prevent them from transporting into your city, its to make it pointless to do so by having enough force already in place, hence the small densely populated areas.

Massed troops are excellent targets for area-effect spells. And any area small enough to be economically-covered by anti-tp defences is small enough to be economically covered by standard area-effect offensive spells.

[TuggyNE]

One thing I don't get about the TV.

Okay, you can stop your enemy from teleporting into your city. But what's to stop him teleporting a few dozen (or hundred) feet outside, stripping down your magical defences from there, then following up with a larger force teleported in once the magic anti-tp defences are down?

It's assumed that that and wish-teleportation are the only two ways to attack such a city, so secondary layers of defense (both passive to delay and active to defeat the invaders) are introduced to deal with those specifically.

Edit:

Massed troops are excellent targets fr area-effect spells.

Densely-populated, not densely-manned. The rapid-response troops need a small perimeter to defend efficiently; however, it can be assumed that once on the scene they use standard high-op tactics to avoid easy defeats by casters.

[Ashtagon]

It's assumed that that and wish-teleportation are the only two ways to attack such a city, so secondary layers of defense (both passive to delay and active to defeat the invaders) are introduced to deal with those specifically.

I had though the TV only assumed teleport circle and food traps were present, not that wish level magic was also freely available.

[Ashtagon]

Densely-populated, not densely-manned. The rapid-response troops need a small perimeter to defend efficiently; however, it can be assumed that once on the scene they use standard high-op tactics to avoid easy defeats by casters.

Doesn't such a defence assume the attacker is not using such tactics?

[Arcanist]

I had though the TV only assumed teleport circle and food traps were present, not that wish level magic was also freely available.

The TV assumes that the world is using practical applications for magic. It would be very practical (imo) to have floating statues that orbit the cities that create a network of Greater Anticipated Teleports while creating magnificent and beautiful scenery for it's inhabitants. In these areas of protection are constant patrolling Alchemic Golems (Golems with a Death Throe and all the benefits of being a Golem, including Magic Immunity). The cities buildings are required by law to have a Hardening spell casted upon them upon completion and have a solution applied to it that renders it immune to Acid effects making them hard to destroy by would be invaders and making them immune to the effects of the Alchemic Golem's rupture ability.

Personally, I don't like the use of Wish level magic in the TV

[Reluctance]

One thing I don't get about the TV.

Okay, you can stop your enemy from teleporting into your city. But what's to stop him teleporting a few dozen (or hundred) feet outside, stripping down your magical defences from there, then following up with a larger force teleported in once the magic anti-tp defences are down?

Like other people said, the assumption that each city has roughly comparable armies. All your troops (who are easily on hand because it's their home) can rush their incoming force. The only way they can generate any real threat involves sending most of their troops over, which leaves them open to attacks from other cities. Even assuming a successful campaign, they'll take heavy losses which will make them easy pickings for someone else.

That, and the simple fact that two significant geopolical players will likely look at the stick of mutually assured destruction, the carrot of trade with their neighbors, and decide that war simply makes no economic sense. Not that terrorist attacks and proxy wars wouldn't happen. Just that by the time you can afford an army capable of making a successful assault, you're unlikely to want to risk it all on launching a campaign.

-------

Back to the beginning of the thread, while the TV mostly grew out of teleportation circles, the basic idea of "how would easy access to spell X change the world?" can be applied to much of the PHB. I remember when I got my hands on my first PHB (I won't give away my age by saying just what edition it was), one of the first things my thirteen year old self was flip through the spells and think how cool it would be to have most of them in real life.

Unleash your inner thirteen year old. That should give you an idea how a world that developed with magic would be different from a mundane faux-medieval with magic added afterwards.

[TuggyNE]

I had though the TV only assumed teleport circle and food traps were present, not that wish level magic was also freely available.

Baseline TV doesn't require e.g. resetting wish traps, no. However, it does get to the point where wish is one of the few ways to get past the defenses; whether it's readily available is of course another matter.

Doesn't such a defence assume the attacker is not using such tactics?

Suppose we're using forbiddance as our spell of choice (ignoring for the moment the various flaws it has). It's practical (if tedious) to stack different instances next to each other to cover an entire city plus a margin of say 1000', to ensure even long-range spells need some time after teleporting in before they can be used. Suppose further that this is a low-op city, without e.g. magic-resistant building codes, permanent wards against various blasting spells, or anything like that: just golems and casters manning the defenses.

An invasion force, teleporting in just outside the forbiddance zone, then has to either move somewhat to get to useful targets, or else waste metamagic on enlarging spell range, or some such thing. Meanwhile, the defenders, stationed a short ways inside the boundary, detect them and move out to engage, at which point it's basically just a straight-up fight. Naturally, you have to account for flight, which means it's more of a dome than a circle, but still not out of the question.

An obvious improvement is to get some kind of anticipate teleport barrier up surrounding the forbiddance field, in order to provide a better buffer and make detection a bit more reliable, as well as giving more time to deploy. All kinds of further refinements are possible to reduce the reliance on huge buffer zones, improve golem performance and deployment speed, and reduce maintenance costs. But you don't need all that to figure out the general defense strategy.

[WarKitty]

Ok, so...other than the whole teleport circle mess, what are the requirements for "magic completely rewrites the rules of society"? Keeping tippyverse just as based on the one spell seems sort of...boring.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Ok, so...other than the whole teleport circle mess, what are the requirements for "magic completely rewrites the rules of society"? Keeping tippyverse just as based on the one spell seems sort of...boring.

That "teleport circle mess" really is the core of the idea.

It effectively eliminates travel time between major points and the economic and political ramifications of that are what pulls the whole thing together.

Everything else after that is just applying magitech.

[WarKitty]

That "teleport circle mess" really is the core of the idea.

It effectively eliminates travel time between major points and the economic and political ramifications of that are what pulls the whole thing together.

Everything else after that is just applying magitech.

Well yeah, but I'm not terribly interested in the specific idea (I had no clue it referred to something so specific or I'd have worded the first post differently). I'm interested in where magic starts really messing with the structure of society.

Basically, I'm interested in what level you get the "mages take over and totally revamp everything" hitting.