Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Sorry for drillin ya, Mr Tribble. I picked out your build immediately (mostly due to the story format/content), but had to score you that way. I hope you understood all of my justification, especially the part about the adjusted ability scores and the subbing out of the SLAs.

No apologies necessary, especially if Prinny sent you a certain note. I drilled a bit as well

Highlights include:
Tummo has three attacks by his first level, not 2 by 20th.
Snowflake Wardance doesn't require Inspire Courage.


To judges in general
I'm not writing a story for points. I'm writing it because it helps me focus on creating. I've also judged here before and a story definitely helps. I'm gonna keep writing them either way.

[senrath]

Y'know, I completely missed the fact that you had natural weapons as well when I was judging. Ah, well, it wouldn't have made any difference, as the 0.5-1.0 extra points that would've given you from me wouldn't have been enough to bump you up a place.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Y'know, I completely missed the fact that you had natural weapons as well when I was judging.

Which, by 20th level, means 3 secondary attacks all at the same BAB.

Example: Instead of 20/15/10/5 it'd be 20/15/15/15.

Ah, well, it wouldn't have made any difference, as the 0.5-1.0 extra points that would've given you from me wouldn't have been enough to bump you up a place.

Most likely not... though other judges missed it too. Could have added up.

Either way, the winners deserved the win.

[Draz74]

Hmmm, so now my two Iron Chef submissions have won 1st and 2nd place. I guess I can be pretty happy with that even if my hopes for MiLaash were even higher, right?

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It doesn't count as boasting as long as I point out that Akal Saris's record is still far more impressive, right?

I'm not sure how to feel about all these people saying they were rooting for MiLaash, though. I'm flattered, but it also makes me a little frustrated to know what I should have done better ...

Not that she was a perfect build. There are lots of little things that have been pointed out that could have improved her a bit -- some of which I don't even recognize. Hexbands? I've sadly never noticed their existence before.

I will point out that, in some cases, I just didn't feel like going to the level of detail and effort to point out every little magic item or other optimization trick that the basic build could stack onto it. For example, I just assumed that any build with high Intimidate would naturally take the Never Outnumbered skill trick. Hmmm, what's the right balance to strike between spelling out everything (and making a really loooooooong entry to read) and assumptions?

Anyway, congrats to Arbitrarity for a great build and a common interest in Hexblade/Pyro synergy.

Since part of the reason I gave MiLaash a low Eligance score was a misunderstanding on my part, I am revising that score to 2.0, giving an overall score of 11.5 and an average of 2.875.

Thanks, and apologies if my comments had an angry tone.

Edit: Prinny, I feel I should point out that the trophies spell "optimiZation" wrong.

[IdleMuse]

Edit: Prinny, I feel I should point out that the trophies spell "optimiZation" wrong.

Heh, I'd say they're spelt correctly, but that's just the anglo-american 'z' divide.

Anyway, well done to all, I learnt a fair bit, and will probably take part again in the future?

[Amphetryon]

When's the next one? Scion of Tem-Et-Nu

[true_shinken]

I'll throw a vote to Ardent Dilettante again for the next Iron Chef.
Or some class with it's own casting. Vigilante, perhaps?

[Private-Prinny]

Edit: Prinny, I feel I should point out that the trophies spell "optimiZation" wrong.

It depends on which side of the pond you're on. It's the same difference as "color" and "colour." Heliomance spells it "optimisation," for example.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

I'd like to propose a suggestion again.

Is there any possibility of a standardization of basic presentation? Enough so that they are basically the same so judges can find everything, but can be added to as the entrant wishes?

I try to change mine up each time to keep it from being obviously my entry, but most of the change-ups are subpar, and no offense to the other entrants, but half the time its very difficult to go through yours and find everything. I'm not saying mine is the best, but I've experimented until I found what is, to me, the easiest to go through.

[IdleMuse]

I'd like to propose a suggestion again.

Is there any possibility of a standardization of basic presentation? Enough so that they are basically the same so judges can find everything, but can be added to as the entrant wishes?

I try to change mine up each time to keep it from being obviously my entry, but most of the change-ups are subpar, and no offense to the other entrants, but half the time its very difficult to go through yours and find everything. I'm not saying mine is the best, but I've experimented until I found what is, to me, the easiest to go through.

*agrees*

Being as this was my first contest, I found it fairly difficult to work out what format would be best for presenting my build. A standard would be great.

[Private-Prinny]

I try to change mine up each time to keep it from being obviously my entry,

Vorpal, we all know which entry is yours.

Still, it's a good idea. I'll try and write up a table.

[Arbitrarity]

I will point out that, in some cases, I just didn't feel like going to the level of detail and effort to point out every little magic item or other optimization trick that the basic build could stack onto it. For example, I just assumed that any build with high Intimidate would naturally take the Never Outnumbered skill trick. Hmmm, what's the right balance to strike between spelling out everything (and making a really loooooooong entry to read) and assumptions?

Anyway, congrats to Arbitrarity for a great build and a common interest in Hexblade/Pyro synergy.

Agh, I dunno. I spend a bit too much time on these, since I feel I MUST find every trick, spend all my skill points manually, and point things out, otherwise there's a good chance a judge will miss something. Examine what happened to Tummo, where misunderstanding of Snowflake Wardance and missing that he had natural weapons cost him significantly in the power department. Examine how both of us got called "one trick ponies" who just attack. I feel, as a contestant, it's my job to present my build as accurately and completely as possible. Heck, I even try to spend money on my magic items, though I'll probably stick to a list of useful items next time.

Of course, that effort is mostly worthwhile. Looking at the compiled scores, you can see a pretty serious gap between the top 4 builds and the rest, and that's based on effort.

[Amphetryon]

Examine how both of us got called "one trick ponies" who just attack. I feel, as a contestant, it's my job to present my build as accurately and completely as possible.

This was true for most contestants, I'd wager.

[Ingus]

Well, congrats to everyone. I was dying to tell the one who posted the Dr. Marvin after the character of the Stand: whoah! great choice. So go for it Amphetryon.

I feel I could have done much better, this time. And let me tell you, Kesnit: Balko may effective be weak on certain casters, but to pick Elminster as example couldn't be the best: being a CR 39 and the epitome of the annoyingly unkillable NPC, he would be above any of the entries.

Hmmm, what's the right balance to strike between spelling out everything (and making a really loooooooong entry to read) and assumptions?

For my experience, if you use a well known trick or a plain class-PrC advancement, you can go with assumptions pretty surely. The more the mechanics are complex, the more you need to explain to be sure of being understood. Judging is complex and if you explain the trick, the judges only have to check if it works by rules. Else, you can face a "and so, what's the big deal?"

That said, I will maybe forfait the next: if all goes good, I'll be on holidays

[Akal Saris]

I didn't actually recognize VT's entry until it was unveiled, but I don't pay too much attention to that stuff ^^;;

[Kesnit]

I feel I could have done much better, this time. And let me tell you, Kesnit: Balko may effective be weak on certain casters, but to pick Elminster as example couldn't be the best: being a CR 39 and the epitome of the annoyingly unkillable NPC, he would be above any of the entries.

Point taken, but a similar result would be likely against many full casters.

[dextercorvia]

Congrats to everyone who posted a build, and especially to Draz74 and Arbitrarity. I feel like I learned so much more about the contest, just for attempting a build this time. I've read some of the past contests, and tried to think about what I would do with GSA, but it was definitely different, sitting down, level by level and making sure it all worked. It was also much more exciting to follow the entries, because I knew what it was like to try to work with the secret ingredient. I hope to get further next time.

[Ozymandias9]

Congratulations to the winners. And to all the contestants, in fact: it was an impressive competition.

To judges in general
I'm not writing a story for points. I'm writing it because it helps me focus on creating. I've also judged here before and a story definitely helps. I'm gonna keep writing them either way.

When I judge, I generally don't look at the quality of the story writing when scoring. Instead, the story is an earmark for elegance-- basically, it's proof of concept that the build can realistically result in a believable character for collective storytelling. If anything, a story that is too well laid out demonstrates this less well than one that is more flexible.


Anyhow, I wasn't able to compete in this one, but as I've watched I had an idea and I wanted to know if any one had some feedback.
The basic concept is:

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Swordsage 5/Pyro10/Shadowsmith5 with Vow of Poverty taken at level 14 or so (when the character hits Shadowsmith 3). Shadowsmith will use the recommended adaptation of a fire theme for the class abilities, and the smoke adaptation for the mysteries. Swordsage would focus as much as possible on Desert Wind.

Shadowsmith and Pyro both provide non-permanent, non-valuable weapons-- so you can bypass the limitation to simple weapons. VoP will give those weapons an enhancement bonus, Pyro will give it the Weapon Afire chain, and Swordsage will net an initiator level of 12. Shadowsmith will also eventually be high enough to provide similar armor if you choose.

The character would also have a decent source of self-powered flight:
IIRC, there was a thread here on GitP a while back that reached a consensus that Body Fuel with Strongheart Vest could be used to freely replenish PP by RAW. While I doubt that many DMs would allow it for an actual manifester (or even, perhaps, at a table with actual manifesters), but since its only being used to power one class ability here, I imagine that most DMs would probably let it pass.

[Ingus]

@Kesnit: Just for laugh Glad you've taken this way

@Ozy: Uhm... Not bad, really, expecially Pyro/Shadowsmith. I'm perplexed by VoP: in general, is a bad choice and it get worst if you give up the feats it grants. It would become really effective if taken early and with the allowance of non-exalted bonus feats (a bunch of "Martial study", for example, would be sweet). Else, I never understand why to give up DMG, MIC, Weapon and Equipment, Weapon of Legacy (expecially MIC has very cheap and powerful magic items).
Also, while expecially fitted by the character taste, Desert Wind is the worst school: most of offensive moves are Ref half (so weak with Evasion), most of maneuvers are Su (AMF and you're out) and there are other ways to move around as per (or better than) the mobility maneuvers.


My first idea was Githyanki, Swordsage 5, Pyro 9, Telflammar Shadowlord 3. The problem was Shadowlord qualification: given the same un-elegant qualification with mobility armor and Assassin's Stance, there was the shadow jump/dimension door problem. Only solution was to add the +1LA template associated, but doing so meant only 8 levels of Pyro and the loss of the only other ranged attack. (not to mention the possible "how in the hell a Githyanki can take a template allowed only to eastern, faerunian races?" background problem).

[WinWin]

So far:

1 challenge based on a PrC from Complete Divine
2 from complete scoundrel
2 from complete warrior
1 from complete arcane
1 from book of vile darkness
1 from expanded psionic

May I suggest something from complete mage, psionic or adventurer?

[Amphetryon]

So far:

1 challenge based on a PrC from Complete Divine
2 from complete scoundrel
2 from complete warrior
1 from complete arcane
1 from book of vile darkness
1 from expanded psionic

May I suggest something from complete mage, psionic or adventurer?

Reasonable. As we just finished a quasi-psionic class, Mage or Adventurer would be most appropriate, with CAd having the advantage of more 10 level classes without full casting (which are generally too popular for the general tenor of Iron Chef).

[Strategos]

Well, as much as I'd like to suggest Mindbender; if we go with one from the other two books I'd suggest either Wild Soul or Nightsong Enforcer.

[ex cathedra]

It's difficult to find a flavorful class that's both interesting to build around and not associated with large amounts of premade optimization. For example, I consider a lot of the prestige classes in CAdv inappropriate for the contest, because they either lead to obvious builds (for example, Wild Plains Outrider, Master of Many Forms) or they don't really bring anything interesting to the challenge (Ollam, Tempest).

For the next challenge, I'd like to suggest Soulbow, honestly. It's most often dipped and forgotten, and it has a rather unique ability. However, the fact that we just finished Pyrokineticist makes me think that it's a bit inappropriate. Taking that into consideration, as well as the sources that have been used... I'd actually like to see Daggerspell Mage in the next contest. But that's just me.

[Amphetryon]

For the next challenge, I'd like to suggest Soulbow, honestly. It's most often dipped and forgotten, and it has a rather unique ability. However, the fact that we just finished Pyrokineticist makes me think that it's a bit inappropriate. Taking that into consideration, as well as the sources that have been used... I'd actually like to see Daggerspell Mage in the next contest. But that's just me.

My 2cp, take it for what it's worth: Soulbow is problematic as an Iron Chef entrant because there are limited paths in, the timing of another psionic-based PrC immediately after Pyrokineticist notwithstanding. DSM, on the other hand, is a 9/10 casting class, which feels more powerful than the general tenor of any of the previous Secret Ingredients. This might make it a poor choice.

Dread Pirate could be fun. Arrrr.

[Strategos]

Dread Pirate could be fun. Arrrr.

Ooh! Yeah, I forgot about that one. I think that'd be a good choice.

[ex cathedra]

Dread Pirate grants leadership as its capstone.

I mean, seriously.

[Amphetryon]

Shiver me timbers. It gives a Leadership-like ability - followers only - as its capstone, which probably means a bad choice.

EDITS: 1) I was ninja'd regarding a pirate. Style points for aethernox.

2) Any thoughts on Bloodhound? It was fairly cool back in the day, but doesn't get much discussion time these days.

[Strategos]

Oh right I forgot about that as well...

[WinWin]

Animal Lord and Bloodhound have simple entry requirements.

Vigilante could be cool. I'd flavour my entry like an insane superhero wannabe.

Virtuoso seems pretty flexible in terms of entry.

Exemplar is bound to be entertaining.

Flayerspawn Psychic could be fun, but it seems to be very mind-effecting focused.

Complete mage classes are heavy-weight casters/invokers for the most part, so a gentlemans agreement might be needed to avoid some caster cheese.

[Amphetryon]

Animal Lord and Bloodhound have simple entry requirements.

Vigilante could be cool. I'd flavour my entry like an insane superhero wannabe.

Virtuoso seems pretty flexible in terms of entry.

Exemplar is bound to be entertaining.

Flayerspawn Psychic could be fun, but it seems to be very mind-effecting focused.

Complete mage classes are heavy-weight casters/invokers for the most part, so a gentlemans agreement might be needed to avoid some caster cheese.

Animal Lord is a good choice, probably better than Bloodhound, due to Bloodhound's 10-minute requirement.

Vigilante is just so bad, though I'd love to argue for the table to be used RAW.

Virtuoso is a 9/10 casting class; see my previous objection on that.

Examplar gets bandied about in some TO work, so a gentleman's agreement will be needed there as well.

Flayerspawn Psychic has the problem of following on the heels of another Psionic class.

Just my random thoughts and opinions.