Stellaris: Paradoxian Space Stategy.

[tonberrian]

So ... Mr. GloatingSwine,

You seem to have strong opinions on ship design. Well reasoned ones, too. If I were to try to summarize those opinions from what I remember, I'd say:

- Build cruisers
- With much armor
- And weapons (and it doesn't matter too much which ones - except not missiles)

Would that be borderline correct?

(anyone else with designs on proper ship design are welcome to chip in too, of course)

Armor's great... vs. AI. Against humans you want shields. At least that's what I gather, since Armor Penetration is so good. You don't want disruptors because they'll focus on ships with shields instead of bringing down a vessel so it won't attack - this is going to be fixed somewhat in 1.8, though how it actually will shake out will require some testing. Range is king, so bring your Kinetic Artillery where you can.

[Kaptin Keen]

Armor's great... vs. AI. Against humans you want shields.

Oh, I'd never play against my fellow man =)

[Silverraptor]

So I stopped suppressing the economic faction and they were immediately back up to 60%. They were basically saying "Oh yeah, cool. No problem." So yeah, that's a thing.

Also, apparently on the other side of the UNE was a xenophilic Fallen Empire that wanted a human pop for preservation. I decided sure, since I'll likely invade them at a later point and it would be nice to have a human population with them. Couldn't hurt anyways. Atleast that's what I thought. Suddenly mass unrest everywhere! I even had my very first revolution ever, on Earth where they tried to take over the planet. Fortunately I already had max garrison on the planet with a general and every army had drone swarms (I just added the attachments because it was early game and I wanted to experiment.) Unrest is now going down slowly but surely, but now the xenophilic empire is +80 to me. I've never had a fallen empire anything but 0 or negative to me in memory, and keep in mind in the couple dozen games I've played, I've only ever had a xenophilic Empire in my game 2 or 3 times. None of which were border to me, so this is a first. So, any advise on getting them to gift stuff to me? Since I'm achievement hunting, going for this one as well seems like a worthy goal.

[factotum]

I may be wrong, but I don't think a regular Fallen Empire will ever gift you anything no matter how friendly you are with them? If they're Awakened that may change, though....

[boomwolf]

If a FE gives you a request and you agree, they tend to reward you some time later. about a decade or two.
Nothing reliable, but it tends to happen.

[GloatingSwine]

So ... Mr. GloatingSwine,

You seem to have strong opinions on ship design. Well reasoned ones, too. If I were to try to summarize those opinions from what I remember, I'd say:

- Build cruisers
- With much armor
- And weapons (and it doesn't matter too much which ones - except not missiles)

Would that be borderline correct?

(anyone else with designs on proper ship design are welcome to chip in too, of course)

Yeah, in single player build cruisers with as much armour as you can stack. Until 1.8 hits it's also good to fit a single regenerating shield to futz with AI target choices a bit.

Plasma has the best DPS as long as the target has more than about 37% armour which most things reach trivially.

For general use, fit one Kinetic Battery, one Large Plasma, two Medium Plasma. (Or 4x Medium, if like me you care about fashion souls because all the L front cruiser slots are uggo).

vs. Unbidden fit 2x Kinetic Battery, 2x Medium Plasma.

vs. Scourge fit 2x Large Plasma, 2x Medium Gauss.

In multiplayer, everyone knows about plasma so armour is less valuable but who cares because naked corvettes all day until 1.8, then shield stacked cruisers with that Unbidden layout after that.

Armor's great... vs. AI. Against humans you want shields. At least that's what I gather, since Armor Penetration is so good. You don't want disruptors because they'll focus on ships with shields instead of bringing down a vessel so it won't attack - this is going to be fixed somewhat in 1.8, though how it actually will shake out will require some testing. Range is king, so bring your Kinetic Artillery where you can.

Actually every weapon that does bonus damage to shields will stop shooting at something when its shields go down to shoot at something that has shields instead, and will make all the other guns on the ship shoot at their new target. Kinetic Batteries though fire slowly so the other weapons on the ship get two shots in between being made to change target. (Plus they have long range)

(Also, entertaining thing re: factions. In my current empire most of my slaves are happier than the egalitarian pops that want to free them....)

[boomwolf]

Yea, all your combat adive is going to be rendered moot soon though...

Entering 1.8, first of all the components balance and AI setups change so armor may no longer be the go-to choice, missiles are retargeting (to a degree, the more retargets they had the less likely they are to retarget again) and ships do not retarget instantly once shields are down (they retarget after a random interval of time)

[Kaptin Keen]

For general use, fit one Kinetic Battery, one Large Plasma, two Medium Plasma. (Or 4x Medium, if like me you care about fashion souls because all the L front cruiser slots are uggo).

vs. Unbidden fit 2x Kinetic Battery, 2x Medium Plasma.

vs. Scourge fit 2x Large Plasma, 2x Medium Gauss.

... but isn't range king? I heard that somewhere.

By which I mean (of course) that kinetic weapons outrange plasma. So wouldn't that be the better choice?

[GloatingSwine]

... but isn't range king? I heard that somewhere.

By which I mean (of course) that kinetic weapons outrange plasma. So wouldn't that be the better choice?

In most cases cruisers are the best, and cruisers dive straight into short range so their weapons range matters a little less.

Yea, all your combat adive is going to be rendered moot soon though...

Entering 1.8, first of all the components balance and AI setups change so armor may no longer be the go-to choice, missiles are retargeting (to a degree, the more retargets they had the less likely they are to retarget again) and ships do not retarget instantly once shields are down (they retarget after a random interval of time)

Price balance will be changing so it's no longer going to be as valuable to just never upgrade, and hull cost balance is changing so corvettes will be less infinitely efficient, but this is not going to be the big combat and war overhaul, unless every other weapon gets AP near to Plasma or Plasma gets nerfed massively, armour is still going to be super effective, and unless the AI starts mounting proper guns (not, eg. all disruptors and neutron torpedoes which it sometimes does) it will still dominate single player.

Shield stacking is going to get less effective because the shield targeting bug is potentially going to be fixed, but I suspect that will make armour even more valuable not less.

[Kaptin Keen]

I have a question. Maybe I'm just being silly, but how many have looked at that one alien, thought 'wow - that's Randall Boggs' ... and made a Boggian empire, or something similar?

[boomwolf]

I have a question. Maybe I'm just being silly, but how many have looked at that one alien, thought 'wow - that's Randall Boggs' ... and made a Boggian empire, or something similar?

Not with that name, but they are one of the two fanatic purifiers I have running around my games. (got a mod that made purifier more flexible to pick, so the two are not the same.)
(basically I made a pile of custom empires, got a mod that disables the regular ones, and set all my customs to "must appear", so I have more empire that MUST be in the game, than there actually are. this leads to any non-fallen empire being on of my pool, except when someone pops into existence mid-game.)

[Silverraptor]

Okay. Quickly help please. One of the neighboring Fallen Empires have woken up and I've already rejected becoming their subjects. They also neighbor me. I've already been building a war fleet for another neighbor, but now I'm still cranking out ships for this awakened empire. I'm at about 110k Fleet power and they are still superior to me in fleet strength it says. So advice on tackling this awakened empire (keepers of knowledge). What Fleet strength should I shoot for? And I have my Battleship designed with tacheyon lances in the XL slot, the tech 2 kinetic Artillery in all the large slots, and plasma cannons in all the other slots. I am researching dragon scale armor right now as I just killed the Ether drake in my space and can easily get giga cannons in exchange for the lances. I've never beaten an awakened empire before when they buffed them and made the fallen empires more dangerous. Before then, I would conquer them easy, but so much has changed, I don't know what's safe or optimal against them anymore...

[GloatingSwine]

Okay. Quickly help please. One of the neighboring Fallen Empires have woken up and I've already rejected becoming their subjects. They also neighbor me. I've already been building a war fleet for another neighbor, but now I'm still cranking out ships for this awakened empire. I'm at about 110k Fleet power and they are still superior to me in fleet strength it says. So advice on tackling this awakened empire (keepers of knowledge). What Fleet strength should I shoot for? And I have my Battleship designed with tacheyon lances in the XL slot, the tech 2 kinetic Artillery in all the large slots, and plasma cannons in all the other slots. I am researching dragon scale armor right now as I just killed the Ether drake in my space and can easily get giga cannons in exchange for the lances. I've never beaten an awakened empire before when they buffed them and made the fallen empires more dangerous. Before then, I would conquer them easy, but so much has changed, I don't know what's safe or optimal against them anymore...

You're probably about in a good place.

Switch out the lances for more plasma cannons, keep the kinetic artillery, have a mix of medium and large to hit their escorts most effectively, then arrange the fight so that they jump in on top of you (reasonably easy if you can make them chase you, just go one system and stop when they reach you)

You can beat fallen empires at a close to 2:1 power disadvantage. A point blank engagement means you lose less of your fleet as well.

[Kaptin Keen]

You're probably about in a good place.

Switch out the lances for more plasma cannons, keep the kinetic artillery, have a mix of medium and large to hit their escorts most effectively, then arrange the fight so that they jump in on top of you (reasonably easy if you can make them chase you, just go one system and stop when they reach you)

You can beat fallen empires at a close to 2:1 power disadvantage. A point blank engagement means you lose less of your fleet as well.

I tried something very nearly identical to this, my last game. Got the ass-whuppin' of a lifetime for my efforts. Likely I was doing it wrong - I don't doubt your expertise - but I can't fathom what, precisely.

I didn't get them to jump on top of me - and I had Gigacannon rather than lances (or more plasma, as you suggest).

Oh, and I had a mix of battleships and cruisers.

[GloatingSwine]

Giga Cannons have shield damage bonus so they'll spread fire ineffectively, they're also far worse against armour, which FE ships have, than lances. They're pretty much only for fighting Unbidden.

A mixed fleet means all their fire will direct to your battleships first, all the FE's battlecruisers will focus on that small portion of your fleet first, meaning their fire spreads out less than it would if you only had one ship type.

The point of engaging at point blank with cruisers is that it denies the FE the maximum use of their XL weapons because they can only fire forwards, and cruisers drive around and constantly leave forward arc. (In my current game I've just conquered the AFE, went in with 95k vs 171k and lost about 20 ships. In this game I'm not using shields though, armour only, so I didn't have the advantage of messing up their targeting via cheese which would have about halved my losses).

[Kaptin Keen]

Some games you just have to laugh.

One of the less approachable Fallen Empires blocks off an entire galactic arm. Borders closed to everyone. And I alone have engines capable of jumping past them - to the whole swathe of unexplored habitable planets (which I can all see for some reason. I see every habitable planet in the galaxy. No idea why).

17 planets that only I can access. Mwahahahaha ...!! =)

[Silverraptor]

You're probably about in a good place.

Switch out the lances for more plasma cannons, keep the kinetic artillery, have a mix of medium and large to hit their escorts most effectively, then arrange the fight so that they jump in on top of you (reasonably easy if you can make them chase you, just go one system and stop when they reach you)

You can beat fallen empires at a close to 2:1 power disadvantage. A point blank engagement means you lose less of your fleet as well.

Okay. I'm guessing because they are likely to have better XL weapons that is why I should choose plasma over Lances? What about the fact my fleet is almost entirely battleships currently? Is that still fine? Also, I have Wormholes so I'm the least mobile of the 3 FTL. Any tips on tricking an Awaken Empire to enter a specific system with a built fortress and my fleet ready to ambush them at point-blank?

[Spacewolf]

My current game has gotten quite interesting I managed to pick up afew pieces of fallen empire tech and two of their planets thanks to jumping into a war they were having with the most powerful federation in the Galaxy after which a nearby fallen empire awoke, declared war on one someone I was guaranteeing the independence of but thanks to some shenanigans I managed to get a white peace but they then declared war on the first fallen empire and took it over completely. Based on my estimations their fleet is about 10x more powerful than the fleet of the next nearest empire who they did declare war on but neither side is actually doing anything this time.

Out of curiosity when do leviathans spawn? I havn't found any in my exploration of the Galaxy. In fact apart from afew ruined mega structures I haven't found much from the expansion so far. With the only things being a big pirate fleet and a crystal station both of which died quite awhile ago now.

[Silverraptor]

My current game has gotten quite interesting I managed to pick up afew pieces of fallen empire tech and two of their planets thanks to jumping into a war they were having with the most powerful federation in the Galaxy after which a nearby fallen empire awoke, declared war on one someone I was guaranteeing the independence of but thanks to some shenanigans I managed to get a white peace but they then declared war on the first fallen empire and took it over completely. Based on my estimations their fleet is about 10x more powerful than the fleet of the next nearest empire who they did declare war on but neither side is actually doing anything this time.

Out of curiosity when do leviathans spawn? I havn't found any in my exploration of the Galaxy. In fact apart from afew ruined mega structures I haven't found much from the expansion so far. With the only things being a big pirate fleet and a crystal station both of which died quite awhile ago now.

By my reckoning, they spawn at start. I once encountered a Ether drake in the 3rd system one of my 3 corvettes traveled to. Suffice to say, I had to rebuild a new corvette immediately at game's start.

[Olinser]

My current game has gotten quite interesting I managed to pick up afew pieces of fallen empire tech and two of their planets thanks to jumping into a war they were having with the most powerful federation in the Galaxy after which a nearby fallen empire awoke, declared war on one someone I was guaranteeing the independence of but thanks to some shenanigans I managed to get a white peace but they then declared war on the first fallen empire and took it over completely. Based on my estimations their fleet is about 10x more powerful than the fleet of the next nearest empire who they did declare war on but neither side is actually doing anything this time.

Out of curiosity when do leviathans spawn? I havn't found any in my exploration of the Galaxy. In fact apart from afew ruined mega structures I haven't found much from the expansion so far. With the only things being a big pirate fleet and a crystal station both of which died quite awhile ago now.

They spawn at the start of the game.

Easiest way to find them is to talk to the scientist Enclave and buy information, they mark systems with leviathans in them, 1 at a time (if you're not playing on Ironman you can cheese it by buying the info then reloading the game to save the cost).

[Kaptin Keen]

I have a bit of a luxury problem: My neighbor has been an annoyance since forever - so I decided to gift half their empire to my friends, and take the rest for myself.

Which I did. All planets conquered, all fleets destroyed, all spaceports destroyed - all mining stations destroyed, everything done.

They still refuse my peace offers (which, admittedly, will mean they exist no more). How do I push them when they have nothing left that gives me war score?

Edit: They do have an ally who politely declined the invitation and stayed home for the war. Would I get points for killing off some of their fleet, despite having nothing to do with the actual war goals?

[Istarial]

I have a bit of a luxury problem: My neighbor has been an annoyance since forever - so I decided to gift half their empire to my friends, and take the rest for myself.

Which I did. All planets conquered, all fleets destroyed, all spaceports destroyed - all mining stations destroyed, everything done.

They still refuse my peace offers (which, admittedly, will mean they exist no more). How do I push them when they have nothing left that gives me war score?

Edit: They do have an ally who politely declined the invitation and stayed home for the war. Would I get points for killing off some of their fleet, despite having nothing to do with the actual war goals?

I'm guessing their allies are TECHNICALLY in the war, just not fighting?
If so, you're right, you'll need to go conquer them a little bit too. Warscore acquisition is unrelated to what your actual war goals are, just to how much you've beaten up the opposing team.
(And, in independence wars, the length of the war.)

[Kaptin Keen]

I'm guessing their allies are TECHNICALLY in the war, just not fighting?
If so, you're right, you'll need to go conquer them a little bit too. Warscore acquisition is unrelated to what your actual war goals are, just to how much you've beaten up the opposing team.
(And, in independence wars, the length of the war.)

Or wait ... it turns out their resistance decays over time.

Also, in a stunning display of negligence and shame, it appears someone missed one of their planets when the admiralty drew up the plans. So now they have one, single annoying little planet left in the middle of my glorious span of stars.

I can almost hear the conversation in the debriefing room: 'What planet? Wait, that was also theirs? Who was responsible for counting their systems?'

Darn it!

[Spacewolf]

They spawn at the start of the game.

Easiest way to find them is to talk to the scientist Enclave and buy information, they mark systems with leviathans in them, 1 at a time (if you're not playing on Ironman you can cheese it by buying the info then reloading the game to save the cost).

Ah tried that it just told me about 1 system on the other side of the galaxy with an automated dread, which has now been killed I believe. But I can't check because I have closed borders to that empire so still cant buy new information.

I think most of the wonders of the Universe are dead actually, which is a problem I noticed last time I played as well unfortunately.

[boomwolf]

Or wait ... it turns out their resistance decays over time.

Also, in a stunning display of negligence and shame, it appears someone missed one of their planets when the admiralty drew up the plans. So now they have one, single annoying little planet left in the middle of my glorious span of stars.

I can almost hear the conversation in the debriefing room: 'What planet? Wait, that was also theirs? Who was responsible for counting their systems?'

Darn it!

They possibly settled it after the war began, and if they do that there is nothing you can do.

The prefixed war goals system is so absurd, I really wish someone would manage to fix it.

[Kaptin Keen]

They possibly settled it after the war began, and if they do that there is nothing you can do.

The prefixed war goals system is so absurd, I really wish someone would manage to fix it.

It's a weird system, yea. They changed it, tho - didn't they? I mean now, at the end of a war, I seem to get planets that are still conquered and held by troops. The war after the one above, I took their capital world (different empire, obviously), and I still have that, even though I specifically went for the planets in their SE corner - to add them to my glorious Annex.

Now, I have their capital too, isolated in the middle of their empire, behind closed borders. Which just means I'll have to declare on them again, and make a corridor.

Anyways, on the original topic, I'm pretty sure they didn't settle it. I just ... missed it, like a goon.

[Aotrs Commander]

They possibly settled it after the war began, and if they do that there is nothing you can do.

The prefixed war goals system is so absurd, I really wish someone would manage to fix it.

Why the frack they used CK2-wargoals, not EUIV-wargoals, for Stellaris still utterly baffles me.

[Eldan]

Yeah. THere's tons of stuff in general that EuIV had that Stellaris could really use.

Missions. I always thought those were a big missing part in CKII too. It always gives you a goal when you can't think of one yourself.

Interior politics. Sure, those only really became a major thing in EUIV later, but how great would it be if your factcions were a bit more like the estates in EUIV? I mean, sure, they are similar already, with happiness and influence, but what if they each gave individual boni, based on their politics? Like, say, a militarist faction gives you better admirals? Or if they occasionally made demands, instead of just a list of happiness?

Trade. Currently, there's strategic resources, but honestly, those are pretty boring. More reasons to take certain planets, please. Increased income from being friendly with your neighbours, maybe. Trade networks and international trade.


Currently, I'm at a point with Stellaris where I've played four long-ish games (though none to victory) and decided I just don't find it that interesting and went back to EUIV. It just too often feels I'm not doing anything for ages except build up for no good reason and not even in a particularly engaging way.

[Kaptin Keen]

So ... finding an entire galactic arm full of planets no one but I could reach meant my first ever victory before the endgame crisis. I quite literally settled my way to an early victory.

So that was kinda weird.

Not without a lot of fighting though. Obviously, sooner of later someone else got engines that could hop far enough to reach my winter wonderland of unsettled worlds. Which brings me to something else:

Did they change the AI?

My problem in games like this is that I don't get in enough wars. I'm perfectly happy to let others get on with their thing - as long as they let me get on with mine.

But this game, it was like everyone else was just begging me to trounce them. Rivalries and insults flooding in from every corner. I don't recall if anyone actually declared war on me, specifically - they might have - but otherwise everyone was just pushing it to the point that I decided harsh lessons must be taught.

All in all, it was a remarkably succesful game =)

[GloatingSwine]

My problem in games like this is that I don't get in enough wars. I'm perfectly happy to let others get on with their thing - as long as they let me get on with mine.

But this game, it was like everyone else was just begging me to trounce them. Rivalries and insults flooding in from every corner. I don't recall if anyone actually declared war on me, specifically - they might have - but otherwise everyone was just pushing it to the point that I decided harsh lessons must be taught.

All in all, it was a remarkably succesful game =)

The AI only declares wars it thinks it can win. And if you have the aggressiveness on default it wants a pretty big margin before it will try it on.

Which means that unless you deliberately lowball your power you can expect it to leave you alone.