Spiderman: Far from home

[Douglas]

I knew there was a 95 per cent chance that Mysterio was going to turn out to be fake, simply because it's fricking Mysterio. But upon hearing he was "the last survivor of his alternate Earth," my disbelief increased to 100 per cent. How were the four Elementals so powerful that they could destroy an entire world, but so coincidentally so weak that they could be defeated by a single warrior?

I think they had a pretty good explanation for that, actually. They absorb things of their element and grow, and the bigger they get the more powerful they are and the more they can absorb. It's a runaway feedback loop, easy to stop if you catch it right at the start but impossible if you wait too long, and presumably the inter-universe trip has costs or restrictions that force them to start over. Mysterio's made up alternate Earth didn't notice and respond to the elementals until it was too late, while MCU Earth has warning (and Mysterio) to detect and take them out the moment they show up.

They even made a big point about this, with Fire being able to tap into the heat of the Earth's core if it gets big enough, and that enormous heat source instantly powering it up to unstoppable levels. Later in the climactic fight, one of Mysterio's lines is a claim that the composite elemental is already drawing on the Earth's core, which would make his final victory considerably more impressive. If only Peter hadn't ruined the plan.

[Tom Kalbfus]

I'd rank it as another middle-tier Marvel movie. I still really like Tom Holland's take on Spiderman, and I liked the theme of trying to move on after the events of Endgame. This was the most "traditional" superhero flick we've had in the MCU for some time, and I think that kinda hurt it. I did like their take on Mysterio.

Overall, I'd say it's about a B.

Spoiler

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Also, I'm grateful that they didn't try to kick-start a multiverse here. I was waiting for the twist that Mysterio was creating the elementals, but fully expected them to be real things he was conjuring, or for them to be illusions but he really was from a parallel universe.

Giving the MCU some time to settle before moving onto the next big thing seems wise.

Oh, and I liked the post-credits scene revealing that Fury and Hill were Skrulls. Fury was far too trusting throughout, and he should have known who "Mysterio" was beforehand thanks to his dealings with Stark and his general paranoia. The Skrulls don't have the same level of paranoia and were much easier to fool.

Oh, and I agree about Peter taking his mask off too often, by the way. I've never seen Amazing Spiderman so can't comment there.

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It appears Spiderman doesn't have a secret identity anymore. Most of the Avengers don't anyway. Captain America doesn't, the Hulk doesn't, Thor doesn't, Iron Man is well known to be Tony Stark. Spiderman was one of the few superheroes that had a secret identity, until JJJ let the cat out of the bag.

[Giggling Ghast]

Mmm, fair enough. I suppose that’s plausible.

In any case, I don’t have an issue with Beck turning out to be a murderous glory hound. An undeserved massive ego is pretty common among the various incarnations of Mysterio.

[Douglas]

Another thing I thought of, his plan was pretty well done when considered in isolation, but I don't think he thought through the future implications very well. He's living in a world where "Avengers level threats" are an actual real thing that happens, and his entire plan is designed specifically to convince the world that he can handle threats on that scale. So what was he going to do the next time an actual Avengers level threat showed up?

[Delicious Taffy]

So what was he going to do the next time an actual Avengers level threat showed up?

Get killed off by a single weak enemy within the first 45 seconds while Aunt May fights off an army of them effortlessly, if I had to guess.

[Douglas]

Perhaps I should have asked what he was planning to do. Or, since I doubt he actually had a plan for it, what he would have tried to do.

[Razade]

Perhaps I should have asked what he was planning to do. Or, since I doubt he actually had a plan for it, what he would have tried to do.

Let the real Avengers handle it.

[Zalabim]

He might have thought that an army of stealth-capable drones armed with disorienting holo-projectors and a wide array of destructive tools could handle it.

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Now here's what I want to know. Did he really accidentally get shot, or was that part of the hologram too? Because I know Spider-man didn't kill him, but it seems like weirdly quick thinking and more guts than I expected for him to stand up so well if he did actually get shot. I just assumed he had a few more holograms being remote controlled by his tech and not by EDITH.

[Razade]

He might have thought that an army of stealth-capable drones armed with disorienting holo-projectors and a wide array of destructive tools could handle it.

Spoiler

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Now here's what I want to know. Did he really accidentally get shot, or was that part of the hologram too? Because I know Spider-man didn't kill him, but it seems like weirdly quick thinking and more guts than I expected for him to stand up so well if he did actually get shot. I just assumed he had a few more holograms being remote controlled by his tech and not by EDITH.

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He really got shot but then used that to try and trick spiderman. Then he falls over.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Perhaps I should have asked what he was planning to do. Or, since I doubt he actually had a plan for it, what he would have tried to do.

"If that talentless hack, glory-and-inventions stealin' Tony was able to handle it, me, a genius, with all my genius lackeys, can definitely handle it too".

The thing about massive egos is that they don't tend to think there is anything that can beat them.

Grey Wolf

[Giggling Ghast]

He might have thought that an army of stealth-capable drones armed with disorienting holo-projectors and a wide array of destructive tools could handle it.

Spoiler

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Now here's what I want to know. Did he really accidentally get shot, or was that part of the hologram too? Because I know Spider-man didn't kill him, but it seems like weirdly quick thinking and more guts than I expected for him to stand up so well if he did actually get shot. I just assumed he had a few more holograms being remote controlled by his tech and not by EDITH.

Although it’s always possible that it was an illusion, I’m pretty sure he’s dead. It was definitely him in the scene where he tries to shoot Peter.

[Cozzer]

He might have thought that an army of stealth-capable drones armed with disorienting holo-projectors and a wide array of destructive tools could handle it.

Also, it's likely that with access to EDITH, he might eventually have gotten to the point where he could develop Avengers-tier technology and weapons. Or he thought he would, at least. That's why EDITH was the lynchpin of his plan, I guess.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Oh, one little thing I really appreciated about Mysterio was that he was actually part of an entire team, a whole crew that put the operation together. I loved that, it's a very different take from other MCU villains. (Sure, Vulture had his crew, but on the whole, he was very much a self-made man. Here, the team members all played indispensable roles in the deception.)

[Aotrs Commander]

Just got back from seeing it!

Excellent, as per usual.

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I was about 50% convinced that Mysterio was on the level to start with and I was wondering where they were going with it. They did a good enough job to lay sufficient doubt. Kudos!

Zendaya makes a good, if rather different, MJ.



Those mid/post credit sequences, though!


Especially that last one, I was like "oh, we're doing secret invasion? But that guy, isn't he the one from Cap Marvel and... Ohhhhhhhh. Nick! Really...!"

[Reddish Mage]

Also, it's likely that with access to EDITH, he might eventually have gotten to the point where he could develop Avengers-tier technology and weapons. Or he thought he would, at least. That's why EDITH was the lynchpin of his plan, I guess.

Note that if EDITH is that sort of lynchpin, for an army of drones, that makes it almost exactly like both the Ultron initiative and Hydra's Project Insight.

Does anyone have an argument that EDITH is anything other than this?

Oh, one little thing I really appreciated about Mysterio was that he was actually part of an entire team, a whole crew that put the operation together. I loved that, it's a very different take from other MCU villains. (Sure, Vulture had his crew, but on the whole, he was very much a self-made man. Here, the team members all played indispensable roles in the deception.)

I'd have appreciated it more if the team actually were more of a factor rather than in the background except for two scenes.

Just got back from seeing it!

Excellent, as per usual.

Spoiler

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I was about 50% convinced that Mysterio was on the level to start with and I was wondering where they were going with it. They did a good enough job to lay sufficient doubt. Kudos!

Zendaya makes a good, if rather different, MJ.



Those mid/post credit sequences, though!


Especially that last one, I was like "oh, we're doing secret invasion? But that guy, isn't he the one from Cap Marvel and... Ohhhhhhhh. Nick! Really...!"

Apparently, everything has been thoroughly spoiled for the thread.

If you thought Mysterio was just as likely or not to be on the level you weren't being very critical. Everything about the guys earnestness, likability, and the set up that was perfect for his comic-book illusion powers, all screamed that this guy was a fraud.

I think however, that's what they were going for. They figured with sincere-looking acting the audience would just go along for the ride and not see Mysterio for what he is until they confirmed it was all fake.

That Nick Fury fake out was great. Its better because they telegraph it in the movie (he says things like "your world" instead of "our world"). However, the best end credit scene was the great unmasking, reminiscent of the first Iron Man movie.

You could have left after that and gone away satisfied without knowing Nick Fury was fake the entire movie.

[Zalabim]

EDITH is not autonomous like Ultron nor is it predictive in the way that Project Insight was supposed to be. It doesn't try to think for you, beyond the obvious. Like google's predictive text with the option to kill people.

[Ramza00]

EDITH is not autonomous like Ultron nor is it predictive in the way that Project Insight was supposed to be. It doesn't try to think for you, beyond the obvious. Like google's predictive text with the option to kill people.

Level 5 autonomy with self driving cars it is not, but it is at least level 3 (really it is level 4 but lets accept it is at least 3.) The difference between 3 and 5 may not matter in 90% of scenarios.

[Cozzer]

That Nick Fury fake out was great. Its better because they telegraph it in the movie (he says things like "your world" instead of "our world"). However, the best end credit scene was the great unmasking, reminiscent of the first Iron Man movie.

You could have left after that and gone away satisfied without knowing Nick Fury was fake the entire movie.

I remember I felt like something was wrong with Nick's personality for the whole movie, but I thought it was simply the writers slightly mischaracterizing him. It was very satisfying to see the movie acknowledging my suspicions and making them into a minor plot point.

[Reddish Mage]

EDITH is not autonomous like Ultron nor is it predictive in the way that Project Insight was supposed to be. It doesn't try to think for you, beyond the obvious. Like google's predictive text with the option to kill people.

So like the Iron Legion from early on in Age of Ultron? Tony spoke about his autonomous armor as a stop-gap measure that wouldn't take the pressure off the Avengers.

So all Peter Parker gets is the keys to basically spy and hack using any technology (recall what he sees and can do to his classmates phones) and a drone army that takes his every command. Also, note Happy had him use the tank programmed with a series of customizable spider-suits.

Seems entirely appropriate for Tony's chosen successor...until Peter reminds us he's just a teenager awkwardly trying to be normal.

Well that last ship has sailed...

[Psyren]

So Nando released a video today that sums up basically all my problems with EDITH, and how the movie could have been done better without it:



To reiterate, I liked this movie a lot, and Tom Holland is still my favorite Spiderman. But I'm with Nando on this one, EDITH is the worst part of this otherwise great film.

[Zalabim]

In a nutshell, Nando wants to revisit the least enjoyable parts of Spider-man 2 and retread a lot of plot points that were covered in Homecoming.

Spoiler: I don't know if we're still using spoilers, but this is kinda ranty

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As to "Does EDITH not have any safeties about blowing up the bus it's on," obviously EDITH knows Peter is Spider-man and Beck is just human, so it treats Beck with more care to avoid him getting hurt. Peter can take it. (I still believe that "ignore the safeties; fire everything" was fake. )

Update: I read articles talking about Mysterio's death. The scene where Beck gets hit by stray machine-gun fire from a drone after he said ignore the safeties? Not real. He doesn't get injured there. Beck is hit by the ricochet after Peter avoids his final shot. So no, EDITH does not have those safeties, and presumably the terrible Bus Scene is a hint to reveal that that particular event is faked, much like Beck getting the universe's number wrong is intentional.

[Psyren]

In a nutshell, Nando wants to revisit the least enjoyable parts of Spider-man 2 and retread a lot of plot points that were covered in Homecoming.

Neither of these are true. Homecoming was pre-Snap and I don't see the Spiderman 2 connection at all.

EDIT: Oh, do you mean the attenuation of his abilities? Here's the thing, that made no damn sense in Spiderman 2. FFH Peter has been through actual trauma that could explain something like that, and this movie had some of it anyway.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Just saw the movie today. It might be my favorite Spider-Man movie of all, primarily because the main villain in it is one of my favorites of Spider-Man's rogues' gallery and in comics in general, and the movie nailed the portrayal!

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God, I was grinning from ear to ear with delight during the "villainous reveal" scene, and then the nightmarish illusion battle.... Plus Mysterio's vanity (multi-tasking orders to get his suit in immaculate condition so he'll be ready to shake the Queen's hand after wards, as he's lying to Fury on another line and plotting the "attack" out), his use of misinformation (crazy to think how ahead of its time the character was considering how extremely relevant that is today!), just...everything.
I've wanted a big screen portrayal of Mysterio for decades, and it was honestly everything I ever wanted it to be!
I actually was surprised by the big reveal, despite knowing full well who the character is (and when it happened, just thinking, "this is such classic Mysterio!"). I think the credit (if you want to call it that) goes to Marvel's prior history of terrible villain writing, especially regarding Mr. "We subverted your expectations, why aren't you happy?" Mandarin. I could TOTALLY see the MCU re-writing Mysterio as a completely different character given past let downs, and was gradually emotionally trying to ease myself into that reality ("well, at least they made him bad ass and really charming..."). It was a huge relief, and IMO a "subversion" of its own (in that they didn't butcher a character to subvert the audience's expectations this time), when it turned out it was one big con after all.

I did think it was possible he'd end up the villain, but figured that accessing EDITH would corrupt his mind somehow, or a similar plot device, where the character is robbed of his own agency. So glad that it wasn't the case.

[Devonix]

Neither of these are true. Homecoming was pre-Snap and I don't see the Spiderman 2 connection at all.

EDIT: Oh, do you mean the attenuation of his abilities? Here's the thing, that made no damn sense in Spiderman 2. FFH Peter has been through actual trauma that could explain something like that, and this movie had some of it anyway.

The Spider-man 2 thing always made a lot of sense to me. It had nothing to do with trauma. I don't think Trauma could have caused it. It was his body fighting with his desires. This was Spider-man getting in the way of Peter Parker. And so he rebelled against himself. He never lost his powers he was just forcing himself not to use them.

[Majin]

Well I hope they don't use Spider-Man 2 plot, I didn't really care for the Peter losing his abilities part, it was just kind of dull. Neither JJJ or I want pictures/movies of Peter Parker, but Spider-Man!

[Devonix]

Well I hope they don't use Spider-Man 2 plot, I didn't really care for the Peter losing his abilities part, it was just kind of dull. Neither JJJ or I want pictures/movies of Peter Parker, but Spider-Man!

Ehh to me the Peter Parker stuff has always been the most interesting thing about Spider-man. With out Pete, there is now Jamison. J Jona is funny because of Spider-man, but he's compelling because of Peter.

Pete without his powers have been some of the most interesting Spiderman stories in comics.

[Psyren]

Just saw the movie today. It might be my favorite Spider-Man movie of all, primarily because the main villain in it is one of my favorites of Spider-Man's rogues' gallery and in comics in general, and the movie nailed the portrayal!

Spoiler

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God, I was grinning from ear to ear with delight during the "villainous reveal" scene, and then the nightmarish illusion battle.... Plus Mysterio's vanity (multi-tasking orders to get his suit in immaculate condition so he'll be ready to shake the Queen's hand after wards, as he's lying to Fury on another line and plotting the "attack" out), his use of misinformation (crazy to think how ahead of its time the character was considering how extremely relevant that is today!), just...everything.
I've wanted a big screen portrayal of Mysterio for decades, and it was honestly everything I ever wanted it to be!
I actually was surprised by the big reveal, despite knowing full well who the character is (and when it happened, just thinking, "this is such classic Mysterio!"). I think the credit (if you want to call it that) goes to Marvel's prior history of terrible villain writing, especially regarding Mr. "We subverted your expectations, why aren't you happy?" Mandarin. I could TOTALLY see the MCU re-writing Mysterio as a completely different character given past let downs, and was gradually emotionally trying to ease myself into that reality ("well, at least they made him bad ass and really charming..."). It was a huge relief, and IMO a "subversion" of its own (in that they didn't butcher a character to subvert the audience's expectations this time), when it turned out it was one big con after all.

I did think it was possible he'd end up the villain, but figured that accessing EDITH would corrupt his mind somehow, or a similar plot device, where the character is robbed of his own agency. So glad that it wasn't the case.

I actually thought the Mandarin subversion was great. Where I think they stumbled is that Aldirch Killian should have ended up being a different villain entirely; "Mandarin" should have just been the persona Trevor Slattery chose for the ruse, and in the meta-narrative, as a fakeout for the audience. In the Extremis Iron Man comic that IM3 is based on, the super-powered terrorist he fights is named Mallen, so they could have just gone with that, or folded him into a different IM villain. Aldrich purporting to be the actual MCU Mandarin at the end was nonsense, and Marvel clearly agrees with that because they're now rolling their Author Saving Throw with the Shang-Chi movie.

Pete without his powers have been some of the most interesting Spiderman stories in comics.

That may be but I find depowering heroes completely to be boring. It's the Kryptonite problem again - in Superman movies that's always the way to weaken him, and it turns him into a pushover, and that isn't fun to watch. That's why I like Nando's take - Peter still has his powers, they're just a lot weaker (and his "tingle" nonexistent) because of everything that's on his mind post-Endgame, until he rallies in Act 3.

[Ramza00]

I actually thought the Mandarin subversion was great. Where I think they stumbled is that Aldirch Killian should have ended up being a different villain entirely; "Mandarin" should have just been the person Trevor Slattery chose for the ruse, and in the meta-narrative, as a fakeout for the audience. In the Extremis Iron Man comic that IM3 is based on, the super-powered terrorist he fights is named Mallen, so they could have just gone with that, or folded him into a different IM villain. Aldrich purporting to be the actual MCU Mandarin at the end was nonsense, and Marvel clearly agrees with that because they're now rolling their Author Saving Throw with the Shang-Chi movie.

The problem with Iron Man 3 is the Villian. Aldrich Killian or whatever his name is.

You see the tension in Iron Man 3 is the tension of Tony's PTSD and his anxiety. The tension rises and falls, no matter what Tony does it keeps on coming back, no matter how prepared he is, no matter how many suits he makes, no matter how hypervigilant Tony is, he is always getting surprised and due to PTSD the surprise is always a disaster for PTSD makes it hard sometimes impossible to bring your best self to the situation when surprise and tension hits.

Thus Trevor Slattery being a Terrorist makes sense as a Villain to be the for for Iron Man in IM3, for surprise of terrorism naturally flows in a synergistic fashion with PTSD trauma. Each time Tony has internal tension the audience really believes there is an external existential threat for the nature of terrorism is fear and deadly threat that comes from surprises. Iron Man 3 is about horror as in a horror movie and not even a super prepared, technical superhero can escape the horror.

And the fake out when Trevor Slattery is revealed to be a fraud also makes sense from a tension standpoint, it how's how corrupted and manipulatable Tony is capable of being. Even released from the terror of the Mandarian, Tony still has PTSD and the PTSD corrupts everything. And now Tony knows it for he feels relief when he finds out the Mandarian is not real, but he still has problems ahead.

Enter the real antagonist (but not the villian for the Mandarin and the PTSD occupy Tony's thoughts for so much of the movie.) The real antagonist appears in act 3 as the antagonistic threat but he was barely there in act 1 and 2. He was a distraction in act 1 and 2.

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The problem is Aldrich Killian as a Villain, he talks to much. He is vain and shallow, empty, when the Villian that Iron Man needs in the 3rd act (after Trevor's facade is revealed) needs to be seen as a force of nature with the feeling of power, terror, and INEVITABLY. Have a moment where Tony realize the mistakes in the past were mind based, him losing due to fear, a then reverse it again for the Extremis foes threat is the power of their body, they are so overwhelming in force that not even Tony's Iron Suits can protect him.

The movie was bad for Aldrich Killian did his reveal "I am the Mandarin," he felt like a joke. No instead imagine an Aldrich Killian who used to be anxious fifteen years ago, but he was reborn via extremis, who is now the cocky but tough and silent type. The man who sees everything but dresses down the humans who are beneath him but does not overly boast. Imagine an Aldrich Killian who feels like a predator, who feels above fear now, yet is a man who instills fear in others.

Making Aldrich Killian vain is his undoing as a serious Villain, what you needed with him is cunning, power, and forcefulness that he can bring to bear. Everything Tony is not, Aldrich Killian should be, for he should be Tony's projection of Tony's inadequacies.

[Reddish Mage]

So Nando released a video today that sums up basically all my problems with EDITH, and how the movie could have been done better without it:



To reiterate, I liked this movie a lot, and Tom Holland is still my favorite Spiderman. But I'm with Nando on this one, EDITH is the worst part of this otherwise great film.

While we've been over all the ways EDITH is a dumb idea already beaten to death the rest of these changes are pretty superfluous. You can take EDITH out of the movie, Mysterio can have the drone tech on his own (which he already did in fact for the first four elementals), and almost everything plays out in the exact same way.

Nando goes further to rewrite the entire movie around the Iron Spider Suit as EDITH substitute. The problem with this concept is, two-fold: First the Iron Spider Suit is a suit. Its custom clothing made for Peter Parker. Beck clearly can't fit in it. Moreover, the tech is very distinctive even if it somehow could stretch, Mysterio wearing the suit wouldn't be Mysterio, he'd be Spider-man... or Night-Monkey.

Moreover, the plot about Peter learning that he's more than a suit was the entire point of Homecoming. Homecoming did that. Nando wants to repeat that arc because he hates the aesthetics of a Spider-Man with access to a real lab and support team. He calls his video "The Iron Spider Mistake." Clearly, Nando is much more disturbed by MCU's Spiderman having a fancy suit than he is about EDITH.

Really this isn't a problem except for hardcore fans that can't stand the change to Peter's powers and backstory. We see from Far From Home that a Peter can still be the awkward teenage Peter we all know even if he is mentored by Tony Stark and given a plane, a drone-commanding omnihacking AI, and a fancy suit...maker machine.

Finally, Nando wants to fix the fridge-logic hole point that Beck, being a fake without real powers, should be exposed sooner or later when the next threat to Earth emerges and the Avengers are around (although there's a plot point about how they all appear to be busy). Only, it doesn't fix that point. Beck's original plan still sucks, the plan 2.0 once Peter gives him the suit is still basically to carry on only do it bigger with fancy new tech.

I'm sure there could be something else to fill in the space EDITH takes up. However, like the last attempt at suggesting a fix, this one is a swing and a miss.

The problem with Iron Man 3 is the Villian. Aldrich Killian or whatever his name is.
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The problem is Aldrich Killian as a Villian, he talks to much. He is vain and shallow, empty, when the Villian that Iron Man needs in the 3rd act (after Trevor's facade is revealed) needs to be seen as a force of nature with the feeling of power, terror, and INEVITABLITY. ...

The movie was bad for Aldrich Killian did his reveal "I am the Mandarin," he felt like a joke. No instead imagine an Aldrich Killian who used to be anxious fifteen years ago, but he was reborn via extremis, who is now the cocky but tough and silent type. The man who sees everything but dresses down the humans who are beneath him but does not overly boast. Imagine an Aldrich Killian who feels like a predator, who feels above fear now, yet is a man who instills fear in others.

Making Aldrich Killian vain is his undoing as a serious Villian, what you needed with him is cunning, power, and forcefulness that he can bring to bear. Everything Tony is not, Aldrich Killian should be, for he should be Tony's projection of Tony's inadequacies.

You want fake!Mandarin to be something as terrifying (or more) as the real one, and for the main to be a deadly serious villain that makes a great opposite of Tony. That could actually work.

However, they very clearly decided for a big joke. This was the problem.

I still think turning the Mandarin into a substitute for Osama bin Ladin rings hollow (pun un-intended) in many, many ways. I can't take serious a faux terrorist organization stylized after Al Qaeda saying its headed up by "The Mandarin." That's just all kinds of wrong. Like tossing falafel in with General Tso's chicken.

[Draconi Redfir]

Beck clearly can't fit in it. Moreover, the tech is very distinctive even if it somehow could stretch, Mysterio wearing the suit wouldn't be Mysterio, he'd be Spider-man... or Night-Monkey.

i imagine the intention is for Beck to take and reverse-engineer the technology, use the nannites to make a nano-tech mysterio suit for himself, not wear the iron-spider suit as-is.

the plan 2.0 once Peter gives him the suit is still basically to carry on only do it bigger with fancy new tech.

to be fair, if he had access to better tech like the suit, or even EDITH really, and he WASN'T actively trying to be a villain, i could see him using the technology to actually fight real threats in the same way Tony did. He'd just also be using some illusions to either confuse the enemy, or make his own attacks look more flashy.