Quote about fantasy?

[Narren]

I suppose that this is best place for this question.

I've been trying to remember that quote from Rich about fantasy literature. It's popped up a few times here. Something about it only being worthwhile for what it tells us about the real world....or something.

My Google-fu is weak, and I can't find it.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

This is the quote you seek.

[Keltest]

Our resident banana keeps a well stocked thread with a large number of the Giant's comments. Conveniently the one(s) you are looking for are right at the top, under "recent additions"

[Narren]

Much obliged.

[Arcite]

I see that quote often in a signature line, and I am really rubbed the wrong way by it every time. Like it really irks me.

Maybe "petty escapism" is what some people might want or need after a day of hard work? There is nothing wrong with that. Not all fiction has to be a statement about reality; just entertainment can be valid too.

I think it is a quote that makes more sense if you are person whose job involves fantasy stuff all day, rather than it being after-work in your spare time.

Just my humble opinion. I probably wouldn't have as much feeling about it except for having read it so many times.

[zimmerwald1915]

Maybe "petty escapism" is what some people might want or need after a day of hard work? There is nothing wrong with that. Not all fiction has to be a statement about reality; just entertainment can be valid too.

Reality is outrageous. It can be comforting to leave it behind for a time. Unfortunately, after you've come back, reality will still be the same, and you will not have spent your time away equipping yourself to change it or even to feel outraged at it.

[Unisus]

Yes, but maybe i spent the time away feeling good, not worrying - sometimes you just need a time-out.

[Keltest]

Reality is outrageous. It can be comforting to leave it behind for a time. Unfortunately, after you've come back, reality will still be the same, and you will not have spent your time away equipping yourself to change it or even to feel outraged at it.

Perhaps not, but if you could never, for example, go home from work, don't you think that you would perform significantly worse at your job? I don't just mean go home at the end of the day, I mean eat, sleep, go to the bathroom, everything. Never leave your office building. Sometimes the best thing you can do to aid yourself in a task is to stop doing it for a while and rejuvenate yourself.

Personally what rubs me the wrong way about that statement is the word petty. Rich literally just insulted everyone who reads for fun, including me. I doubt that was his intent if only because Rich usually tries to avoid insulting a demographic unless its based on deliberately provoking him in some way. But you know, if you go slinging around words like petty, you better be darn sure that's the word you want to use.

[Unisus]

Ok, just looked up "petty" and i agree with you - at least out of the context the sentence lacks respect for the worth of taking a step back from everyday problems to gain new strength.

In the context it was used you could say it was an antipole to "worthwhile" to underline what the Giant was trying to say.

[Koo Rehtorb]

It's a pretty silly quote, yes.

[Keltest]

Ok, just looked up "petty" and i agree with you - at least out of the context the sentence lacks respect for the worth of taking a step back from everyday problems to gain new strength.

In the context it was used you could say it was an antipole to "worthwhile" to underline what the Giant was trying to say.

I don't think that makes it any less disrespectful. If its being used as a counterpoint to "worthwhile" that implies that it isn't worthwhile, ie a waste.

[Unisus]

I don't think that makes it any less disrespectful. If its being used as a counterpoint to "worthwhile" that implies that it isn't worthwhile, ie a waste.

That's why i said in context - the discussion was about the significance (? not sure if it's the right word, but i hope you understand what i try to say) a story may have.

I'll try an analogy: if i evaluate food in regard to the energy it provides, fibers are worthless. So in a discussion on that topic a comment saying so would be appropriate. If the discussion was about a healthy diet, it would't be.

[Keltest]

That's why i said in context - the discussion was about the significance (? not sure if it's the right word, but i hope you understand what i try to say) a story may have.

I'll try an analogy: if i evaluate food in regard to the energy it provides, fibers are worthless. So in a discussion on that topic a comment saying so would be appropriate. If the discussion was about a healthy diet, it would't be.

And in that context its still disrespectful. As you mentioned, it is completely dismissive of the beneficial effects of taking a step back and not worrying about things for a little while, and when discussing the value of a story that is absolutely relevant to the discussion. Ironically, it would have made the point you're claiming it was trying to make better had it just left it as a neutral statement rather than making it derogatory.

[Unisus]

So you say if i want to read a story to broaden my mind, it is of no importance if the story i read does not provide any wisdom?

Don't get me wrong, i also think thet the word "petty" was a poor choice, and in the form the quote is presented here in the forum it is questionable at least, but i think in the given context it was acceptable.

[Keltest]

So you say if i want to read a story to broaden my mind, it is of no importance if the story i read does not provide any wisdom?

Don't get me wrong, i also think thet the word "petty" was a poor choice, and in the form the quote is presented here in the forum it is questionable at least, but i think in the given context it was acceptable.

I think if you want to redo your roof, you shouldn't buy a saw to use as a hammer. I have no problems with the idea that stories can be used to give across a message, but im rather offended by the idea that that is the only worthwhile reason to read or write a story. If you want books filled with wisdom, a little investigating will usually turn up plenty of books to suit your tastes; no need for a blind trial and error method, so you cant even argue that "for fun" books impede those seeking wisdom.

[Unisus]

Maybe i read it different from how you do. If the Giant's comment is about the value of literature in general, then i agree with you. I read it more as a comment about literature which wants to transport a message.

[Keltest]

Maybe i read it different from how you do. If the Giant's comment is about the value of literature in general, then i agree with you. I read it more as a comment about literature which wants to transport a message.

Statements like "No fiction is meaningful" and "Fantasy literature is only" as a rule are very inclusive statements. Its difficult to read "No fiction meant to transport a message is meaningful..." when the actual sentence lacks the "meant to transport a message" part.

[SouthpawSoldier]

I'm glad to finally read the context and qualifiers for that quote. As someone who was practically raised by fiction, "petty escapism" is a broad brush that could be (and was) read as dismissive.

It's fairly easy to point at literature that was influencial during my formative years. Authors like Robert Heinlein use their writing more as a platform for commentary than simple story telling. It's more difficult to relate Tolkein to the real world. I still find it enriching, and not "petty".

[Unisus]

Statements like "No fiction is meaningful" and "Fantasy literature is only" as a rule are very inclusive statements. Its difficult to read "No fiction meant to transport a message is meaningful..." when the actual sentence lacks the "meant to transport a message" part.

That's what i took from the context, as the discussion was about the messages the Giant wants to transport. At least that's what i get from it. But again, of course i could be misinterpreting it.

[Keltest]

That's what i took from the context, as the discussion was about the messages the Giant wants to transport. At least that's what i get from it. But again, of course i could be misinterpreting it.

context cant really change the meaning of a statement. If someone says "all vegetables are gross" then context cant change that to mean anything other than what it says, even if theyre talking about green leafy vegetables up until that point.

[Unisus]

context cant really change the meaning of a statement. If someone says "all vegetables are gross" then context cant change that to mean anything other than what it says, even if theyre talking about green leafy vegetables up until that point.

But if you take "meaningful" as "able to transport a message", the statement is correct. No fiction can transport a message (reasonably), if the message isn't valid outside the story.

And then the other sentence (which gets quoted out of context...) is to be read in context to this.

But of course, without a statement of the Giant setting this straight we won't know if he actually is against escapism.

[Keltest]

But if you take "meaningful" as "able to transport a message", the statement is correct. No fiction can transport a message (reasonably), if the message isn't valid outside the story.

And then the other sentence (which gets quoted out of context...) is to be read in context to this.

But of course, without a statement of the Giant setting this straight we won't know if he actually is against escapism.

that requires you to ignore context actually. Specifically, the part where he established that he believes the point of all fiction is to transmit a meaningful message.

[Aedilred]

Over the years I've seen Rich make a number of comments regarding fiction or literary principle or whatever. I've probably disagreed with the majority of it, and a subset of that has actively annoyed me. He does also have a habit of coming across as rather dismissive towards his own readers. I guess it goes to show that you can enjoy a creation independently of its creator's "private" opinions.

In fact, I've long felt that fiction (in whatever medium) is probably improved if you don't get to see the man behind the curtain, and I don't think I'm alone in that. I'm aware that the modern world, with its social media, making-of documentaries longer than the actual feature, and so on, has torpedoed this idea and machine-gunned the survivors, but I still think it holds good in principle. Webcomics are particularly vulnerable, since by their nature there's no marketing, PR, or indeed editorial department to keep the creator on a leash, and it's very easy for a creator to blurt something out at any time.

[Unisus]

that requires you to ignore context actually. Specifically, the part where he established that he believes the point of all fiction is to transmit a meaningful message.

Actually i did not ignore that as i did not read it. But after multiple times reading the comments in that thread i agree that you could read it as that.

[Keltest]

Actually i did not ignore that as i did not read it. But after multiple times reading the comments in that thread i agree that you could read it as that.

Im very confused now. You didn't actually read the entire post? But youre arguing based on context...

excuse me while I go into the next room over to ponder how that even works.

[Unisus]

Im very confused now. You didn't actually read the entire post? But youre arguing based on context...

excuse me while I go into the next room over to ponder how that even works.

Maybe i'm blind, but i didn't find the phrase "i believe the point of all fiction is to transmit a meaningful message" anywhere, so it must be implied in what he actually wrote. Implied content is always up to interpretation, and what i was saying is that i didnot interpret it like that. If he actually wrote that phrase, then i just did not see it and would be glad if you could point it out to me.

[jere7my]

context cant really change the meaning of a statement. If someone says "all vegetables are gross" then context cant change that to mean anything other than what it says, even if theyre talking about green leafy vegetables up until that point.

Keltest said, "All vegetables are gross."

Would reading that quote of yours in context change its meaning?

[Keltest]

Maybe i'm blind, but i didn't find the phrase "i believe the point of all fiction is to transmit a meaningful message" anywhere, so it must be implied in what he actually wrote. Implied content is always up to interpretation, and what i was saying is that i didnot interpret it like that. If he actually wrote that phrase, then i just did not see it and would be glad if you could point it out to me.

If you are going to dismiss any themes or subtext present in any fantasy story as simply not applying to our world because that world has dragons and ours doesn't, then you have largely missed the point of literature as a whole, and are likely rather poorer for it.

emphasis mine.

[Unisus]

Sorry, but that i read as "the appearance of totally fictional content does not remove the validity of transported messages", not as "all literature has to transport messages", but as i said, it's an implication and thus subject to interpretation.

And by the way, statements can well be dependent on their context and have a very different meaning when used without that context.

[Keltest]

Sorry, but that i read as "the appearance of totally fictional content does not remove the validity of transported messages", not as "all literature has to transport messages", but as i said, it's an implication and thus subject to interpretation.

And by the way, statements can well be dependent on their context and have a very different meaning when used without that context.

If you are choosing to read statements that are not there, that's your prerogative. Horse, water, drink, etc... But understand that just because you choose to interpret something a certain way does not mean that it lends itself to that interpretation.

Whether or not you think that's what the Giant meant, you definitely understand how its what he said to a great many people, so my point is made.