The Way Words Work (or, Truenaming that doesn't make me cry myself to sleep at night)

[Magicyop]

This is a fantastic system. Bravo!

Question on the new one:

How is Necrodeonomy useful? Even to resurrect a rank 1 deity seems near impossible with a DC of 120 and no way to raise Truenaming through items. You could get reasonably maybe +12 from intelligence, +10 from epic skill focus, +5 from synergy, and +5 from other feats. Assuming you get around ten, that's 42 with no skill ranks. That means you need to be level 75 with max ranks in truenaming to even resurrect a rank 1 deity. And at level 75 you could just kill the entire universe and steal all the magic and become a rank 20 deity.

Other than that, looks very fun.

[Draxar]

Good comments!

First on the subject of the memento mori class feature, there are certain abilities and effects that treat you differently if you are undead or not, like negative energy. You don't gain the Undead type, but you can be treated as undead for these effects if you so choose. Like Tomb-Touched Soul, but a bit better.

I would reccomend very specifically wording it so. Specify what does and doesn't affect it. Does positive or negative energy affect the dead? Dead things are objects, and immune to most fortitude save effects. It needs to be quite specific.

As for the lexeme, bear in mind that it gets to change its vocalizations every day and get extra bonuses to its check and a whole bunch of class features besides that the truenamer gets. The truenamer can get the best pure truenaming checks, but there are still plenty of reasons to play a lexeme.

Thanks for the interest!

See, I'd expect the lexeme to be better at truenaming checks, 'cause it gets all those bonuses and is single attribute dependent, not two attribute dependent.

But still, the issue isn't whether it can make the check. The issue is that it's a relatively simple thing for a Truenamer to know who he can Utterance, and who he has to Incant at.

The Lexeme lacks this, it's the main thing putting me off it as the only way to work out if you can Utterance someone is to suck it and see, quite possibly wasting your time doing so. Then, next round, the figher hit it a few more times, it has to be under your limit now surely? Oh, no, sorry. Another wasted action. Etcetera.

Edit: I'd also look at specifying the control you have over the Necronomist's created undead more specifically than

This chant allows her to direct the undead pretty much perfectly for the round.

Does the player get to make all the decisions, as if they were actually being played by them? Or does he issue orders? Can a level 20 guy order each of his 40 undead (who each have 40HD) to move exactly as he chooses, for one swift action?

Also, on that, I predict people will at the higher levels, summon the undead early on, and just spend the day chanting. Especially since the Anima comes back to them an hour after they summon the things, not an hour after the things die...

... in fact, the way you've worded it, there's nothing stopping someone making undead #1, waiting an hour until that Animus returns to him, then re-using its animus to make another undead, up to the limit of the names in his book.

And looking at it, the only thing stopping you doing that with Nightcrawlers all the way is the need for sleep. So a Warforged Necronomist could walk around with 100 Nightcrawlers. And those 100 nightcrawlers? Can then summon between them 900-1600 shadows, 300-600 greater shadows, or 200-400 dread wraiths.

Also, even if something cannot/does not create spawn (the Nightcrawler doesn't) something Energy Drained to death will rise as a wight.

So, Bob the Warforged Necronomist spends a while chanting, and then decides to take on a city, or maybe a country with the 8,800 hit dice of undead he has under his control (100 x 40HD Nightcrawlers, 300 x 16HD dread wraiths). This seems a little too powerful to my mind. Only takes him about 40 hours to summon them all.

[Sdonourg]

One question about necronomist's undead table. "White" is supposed to mean wight, or is it a typo, or do I miss something?

P.S. One of my players now plays as a truenamer and he does pretty good job in combat and social encounters.

[Vauron]

Also, on that, I predict people will at the higher levels, summon the undead early on, and just spend the day chanting. Especially since the Anima comes back to them an hour after they summon the things, not an hour after the things die...

... in fact, the way you've worded it, there's nothing stopping someone making undead #1, waiting an hour until that Animus returns to him, then re-using its animus to make another undead, up to the limit of the names in his book.

I can't agree with your interpetation of what was written.
Relevant Section:

Named souls become manifest at full hit points, no matter their condition the last time they were destroyed. If a named soul is destroyed while animated (including simply lapsing the chant), the necronomist must make a Concentration check against the same DC as her original Truespeak check for the soul or lose her chant on all her named souls currently animated.

In addition, no matter whether she makes the Concentration check, she temporarily loses the anima that was invested in the named soul for 1 hour as it finds its way through the labyrinth of the underworld back to her book. For this hour, she cannot use that particular name, nor can she use the anima that was invested in it.

Notice that you only get the anima back after having to make the concentration check. Now, why are you making the concentration check? Because your minion just died! However, I do think that it should explicitly state what happens to the anima invested into the other named souls.

[Kellus]

Thanks for the interest, draxar! Bear in mind that this is the first draft of the necronomist, and I'm sure there are plenty of loopholes that will need to be adjusted.

I would reccomend very specifically wording it so. Specify what does and doesn't affect it. Does positive or negative energy affect the dead? Dead things are objects, and immune to most fortitude save effects. It needs to be quite specific.

I guess I can describe it more specifically. I think it's fairly obvious what it does, but if you think it's too vague I can touch it up.

See, I'd expect the lexeme to be better at truenaming checks, 'cause it gets all those bonuses and is single attribute dependent, not two attribute dependent.

Meh. The lexeme has a lot of things going for it. It doesn't get recitations, though, so it doesn't get the recitation of the unclouded eye. It might amuse you to know that originally there WAS no recitation of the unclouded eye, and even truenamers had to find out by trial and error what was and wasn't above their limit. It was actually one of the balancing features for having two utterances/round.

Edit: I'd also look at specifying the control you have over the Necronomist's created undead more specifically than

Does the player get to make all the decisions, as if they were actually being played by them? Or does he issue orders? Can a level 20 guy order each of his 40 undead (who each have 40HD) to move exactly as he chooses, for one swift action?

Yes. Although remember that what he has in this scenario is 40 zombies or skeletons. At level 20 a skeleton or zombie of any number of HD is pretty much fodder. The necronomist at high levels is intended to be a kind of war marshal. Although it's pretty silly to actually have 40 summoned monsters running around, a level 20 necronomist can do it if he wants. Obviously it would make more sense to have fewer, stronger monsters. But in answer to your original question, yes he has full control over them.

Also, on that, I predict people will at the higher levels, summon the undead early on, and just spend the day chanting. Especially since the Anima comes back to them an hour after they summon the things, not an hour after the things die...

... in fact, the way you've worded it, there's nothing stopping someone making undead #1, waiting an hour until that Animus returns to him, then re-using its animus to make another undead, up to the limit of the names in his book.

And looking at it, the only thing stopping you doing that with Nightcrawlers all the way is the need for sleep. So a Warforged Necronomist could walk around with 100 Nightcrawlers. And those 100 nightcrawlers? Can then summon between them 900-1600 shadows, 300-600 greater shadows, or 200-400 dread wraiths.

That's obviously an oversight. I'll say it more specifically, but the anima is invested in the named creature. It doesn't return until an hour after it's been destroyed. You don't get to reuse the anima while it's still walking around.

Also, even if something cannot/does not create spawn (the Nightcrawler doesn't) something Energy Drained to death will rise as a wight.

Sure, but not under your control.

So, Bob the Warforged Necronomist spends a while chanting, and then decides to take on a city, or maybe a country with the 8,800 hit dice of undead he has under his control (100 x 40HD Nightcrawlers, 300 x 16HD dread wraiths). This seems a little too powerful to my mind. Only takes him about 40 hours to summon them all.

Yeah, no.

I'm pretty sure the OP specifically says that the anima only comes back an hour after the creature is destroyed, but then again it's a complex ability. I'll make sure to spell it out. Thanks for the comments!


Sdonourg– Yeah, it's supposed to be wight. Although I guess they might be white. I'm glad to hear your truenamer is doing well! I'd be glad if you'd keep me up to date on how he fares in your campaign!


Magicyop–*The real capstone to the class is to have an additional +10 anima at level 20. Necrodeinomy is a fun superawesome campaign ability that will pretty much never come up, so the DC to the skill check is arbitrarily high. It's for use at high epic levels when you're actually messing around with gods. I guess I could lower it a little, but it's not going to be used for real unless you're high into epic and by that point I certainly hope you've found some ways to cheese a great Truespeak check.

EDIT: Okay, typo fixed. Memento mori now simply says "alive or undead" which is more specific as to the effects it's useful against. I added an extra bold sentence specifically mentioning that anima only returns to the necronomist when the undead it is powering is destroyed.

However, I do think that it should explicitly state what happens to the anima invested into the other named souls.

Good point! What happens when you fail the Concentration check is that all of your other animated undead are destroyed, temporarily losing their anima and names. This means that it makes a lot more sense for a necronomist to hold some anima back in case one of her souls is destroyed, potentially leaving her helpless for an hour. The smart necronomist will have at least some anima in reserve for emergencies. This also encourages you to have a few, powerful undead instead of hordes of weaker undead. Since if even a single zombie dies, a botched Concentration check destroys your entire army!

[Magicyop]

Ok, I can see that, but the DC is still too darned high. Make it possible for a level 25 or level 30 character using cheese to be able to do it. Maybe make it 60 + 10 per divine rank? That seems much more fair to me-- high, but achievable.

Speaking of that, any plans in the work for an epic truenamer and/or epic truespeaking feats?

[zz78q5]

Here is a thought: "there is nothing fighters can do, that a spell caster cant, except having a lot of hp" - the way I see it, not even that is true. There is actually one thing Figthers can do that spellcasters cant: having a lot of feats. Other than that, and not considering BaB, the way d&d presents "fighters" just dont match its performance on the campaing. They dont have a lot of skills to pick from, nor a lot of skill points to spend. They dont have fancy tricks (other than what they can achive by very thoughtfull sets of feats) and they dont even have good saves (only Fortitude...). That is why I think they came up with a handfull of "multiclassing" classes for fighters, that mix spellcasting, rogue abilities, etc. And the ULTIMATE "combatant" book: Tome of Battle: The book of the Nine Swords. I am currently running a mid-level campaing, and the Swordsage is simply beautiful. It has nice in-battle supernatural abilities (hence they are not affected by SR, nor anti-magic fields whatsoever), a good skill selection/ammount of skill points, decent out of battle special abilities, coherent saves, and they never run out of special abilities, like spellcasters do, plus, levels taken in another "non-Martial Adept" classes sum half their total to your Initiator Level. I told my players I would completely substitute the fighter with these classes, but they didnt wanted to. The same wordsage I mentioned, has 2 fighter levels, that is 2 more feats, which is the only strong point of fighters in game.

This may seem a little confusing, but what I am trying to say is: there ARE ways to put fighters at the same level that spellcasters without the need of consider them a bag of hit points (same way low level clerics are often considered cure-wounds-wands). Needless to say the Martial Adepts have VERY GOOD hit dices (d8 Swordsage, d10 Crusader, d12 Warblade), so now imagine, a "fighter" pretty much as "powerful" (of course not really as much since they cant stop time, polymorph their "familiars" in 15HD dragons permanently - that can be done, with 1 single spell, i've studied that very carefully - not they can alter reality, still they can bring down quite fast almost any monster you face them with). You see? they are more than HP, have a lot of other tricks, etc, AAANNDD have a lot of hp compared to full spellcasters which are more "powerful" (in game terms, considering a full spellcaster, of lets say 7th level?, can do almost anything outside combat and can bring the battle to an end in 2 rounds). Now, if I would want to "balace" things out for fighter classes to spellcaster classes, I would make SR itmes far common rather than introducing a class with a limitless source of power, that is "more effective" against spellcasters not because they train to kill spellcasters (as Witch Slayer from ToM) but because spellcasters "lacks of physical training" (hp) which to my, just make no sense.

That being said, if I may, I'll adopt this child of yours (the Truenamer) and rise him my way to fit my "expectations" of the class (I maybe even post it here sometime).

Now, regarding the "scry-to-die", I think it would be fair to set the range of a vocalization to a fixed distance. i.e. 30' + 10'/Truenamer level and must have line of effect to the target, even though the guy pulls upon the universe to change things, he could only be able to affect his immediate "universe" (what surrounds him) and that "immediate universe" may expand as he grows in power. That way, the TN can affect whatever he can see and name, withing his "immediate universe" (30'+10'/TN level) but not what is beyond that. This sort of sets a rock-paper-scissors kind of play between melee-TN-spellcasters (melee kills TN, TN kills spellcasters, spellcasters burn the city down to kill the fighter that messed with him last season) according to the herein truenamer rules, and IMHO, is consistent with the idea of the Truenamer without having to set over-specific rules like: cannot affect targets through magic connection which is a rule that some way, I think can be exploited (i havent found a way, yet, but it sounds like that kind of rules, the one that encourage exploiters to think: how can I?).

Well, I relly like this post and I will take a look at the new class now.

Have a nice day everyone.

[zz78q5]

Ok, how about this:

Truenamer gets:
1 Syllable per level.
1 Utterance every 3 levels, starting at level 3 for a total of 6 utterances at level 18
1 Recitation every 6 levels, starting at level 6, for a total of 3 Recitations at level 18

Have not worked "special" every level yet.

Syllables:
Short Vocalizations; Casting Time: 1 Movement. Minor Effects. Once a syllable is learned, it cannot be forgotten.

Utterances:
Formed by 3 or more syllables; Casting time: 1 standar. Average to Major effects. Utterances can be prepared the same way a spellcaster preares his spells for the day, by dedicating 10 minutes of practice. A Truenamer can change his prepared utterances as many times as he likes during a day, but he can only use his prepared utterances.

Recitations:
Chants composed by 2 utterances; Casting time: 1 full round. Major effects. Recitations can be interrupted unless a Concentration check is successful the same way casting spells can be interrupted. They are prepared the same way utterances are, but the time needed is 1 hour per recitation.

Utterances and Recitations have Reverse mode. Syllables dont.

Truespeaking; Int, Trained only- Required to speak Truename Syllables, Utterances and Recitations. The DC for each vocalization is calculated by the Base DC (check each vocalization) plus the target's CR (or HD if a character). If the vocalization does not target a creature, the DC is calculated 10 + Base DC. If it targets yourself, the DC is only the Base DC.

Learning Vocalizations:
There are 3 Lexicons from where vocalizations can be learned:
The Lexicon of the Elements
The Lexicon of the Mind & Body
The Lexicon of the Time & Space

Each contains the three type of vocalizations. To learn a vocalization, a Truenamer must meet the prerrequisites (normally, previuosly learned vocalizations and/or Truespeak ranks).


This is a draft I just made. I'll keep working it out for me, i just wanted to share my idea, 'cause maybe you like it and it helps you (maybe not :D).

[Lix Lorn]

Your idea isn't necessarily bad, but I REALLY doubt Kellus'll change the base mechanics now.

UItterances can be prepared the same way a spellcaster preares his spells for the day, by dedicating 10 minutes of practice. A Truenamer can change his prepared utterances as many times as he likes during a day, but he can only use his prepared utterances.

Also, that makes no sense. I can only remember several sentences at a time? Whuh?

Edit: ...and it's spelt syllable.

[zz78q5]

The idea was not to have kellus change the mechs of his truenamer... XD

ya, sorry for the typo, translating while typing while working isnt really advisable, u can keep track of only 2 or those at the time :P


it is not a "sentence" it is a very-hard-to-pronounce-weird sentence, and it is not that you "remember" it is that you practice it until it can be speach clearly, aloud, and with the minimum concentration possible.

anyways, I'll work from this on to make my own Truenamer XD

namaste everyone.

[Kellus]

You are of course welcome to use this material however you like, including in your own homebrew, but I'd rather you didn't do it in the middle of the thread. If you want to start your own I'd be glad to take a look at it and tell you what I think, but what I'm looking for here is critique and criticism, not new material.

After thinking about it, I think I'll take that suggestion on necrodeinomy and make it a little easier.

[Sir Shadow]

zz78q5, I don't mean to be rude or anything, but you seem to be the only person that thinks it requires such a change. Perhaps you should start your own thread.

EDIT: damned, ninja'd by Kellus :P

[Sdonourg]

Today I DMed another session with a truenamer in. He is as good as dread necromancer in combat. His absolute limit is 60 on 10th level and it's enough for many CR 9-11 monsters. Truenamer has bonus on +25 Truespeak checks, so he almost never fails to vocalize. This player likes this class very much, so do I. But he's complaining on a lack of prestige-classes, that are non-hybrid (he suggests specialized prestige-classes, like "Pyrovocalizer", "Recitator", "Truecrafter" [Words of Creation counterpart of Sinspeaker]).

P.S. Sorry for my bad English. And I noticed, that Necronomist's table still says "necronomy (whites)" and that there are no rules on speaking truename effects underwater.

[Sir Shadow]

most people are unable to speak underwater. So that solves a lot of the problems.

[Ziegander]

Does this system not operate under the assumption that, "The Universe hears you?"

[Lix Lorn]

I'd assume that, if you can make noise underwater, it works.
And no, cause it doesn't work in Silence.

[kryan]

Does being underwater affect verbal spell components?

I like the idea of a Words of Creation version of Sinspeaker, but Truecrafter sounds wrong to me; the Words of Creation are about a lot more than crafting. Honestly, it seems likely that the Words of Creation and the Dark Speech are all actually subsets of Truespeech, possibly corrupted in the case of the Dark Speech.

Kellus, do you accept submissions for things like that? I have half a mind to try my hand at writing up a Words of Creation-based Truenamer PrC. I can put it in its own thread and you can link it (or not, I suppose, if you don't like it), or I could post it here, whichever you prefer. Or I could PM/e-mail it to you, and you could include it with the other PrCs, if you wanted.

[Sir Shadow]

Does this system not operate under the assumption that, "The Universe hears you?"

No, the basis of this skill is that you can articulate the very essence of a creature and by different cadence and nuance you can alter it slightly. If you can't say it properly it doesn't work.

I'm fairly certain that Stormwrack says something about verbal components and water, but I'm far too lazy to look it up. Even without hard rules, if the character can breath underwater, I (as a DM) would probably increase the DCs by 10-15.

[Kellus]

Sdonourg, thanks for the information! I'm glad to hear that the truenamer is keeping up with the dread necro (sounds like a fun party!). I'm sorry to hear he can't find a prestige class that he's interested in. I sort of understand what he's talking about. Most of the prestige classes I've made are to make specific character concepts, like paladin-truenamer or wizard-truenamer viable in the first place. But you're entirely right that there should be some for a straight truenamer to take as well. I think I have the outline of one on my hard drive, so I'll see if I can't dig it out for you.

Kellus, do you accept submissions for things like that? I have half a mind to try my hand at writing up a Words of Creation-based Truenamer PrC. I can put it in its own thread and you can link it (or not, I suppose, if you don't like it), or I could post it here, whichever you prefer. Or I could PM/e-mail it to you, and you could include it with the other PrCs, if you wanted.

Yes! In fact, one of my favourite prestige classes for this, the rhyme witch, was made by someone else! If you want to do homebrew for this system I would be glad to look it over and put it in the main post! Either post it up here for feedback or PM it to me and I'd be glad to look at it.

EDIT: If people want a ruling on underwater vocalizations, I'd say that you need to be able to speak clearly. If you can breathe underwater like a mermaid or a sea elf or something then you can do it no problem. If you can't talk without your lungs filling up because you lack gills or whatever than you can't truespeak, anymore than you could if your mouth was stuffed with chocolate pudding.

[Lix Lorn]

...I can see it now.

FAQ
Can I Truespeak while my mouth is full of chocolate pudding?

[Magicyop]

...I can see it now.

FAQ
Can I Truespeak while my mouth is full of chocolate pudding?

Does a speech impediment mean that you cannot use the power of Truespeak?

[Lix Lorn]

FAQ
What is Cthulhu's True Name?

[Magicyop]

FAQ
What is Cthulhu's True Name?

Answer:
Chuck Norris.

[Kellus]

Answer:
Chuck Norris.

There is no way you're going to succeed on that Truespeak check.

[Tacitus]

Even Pun-Pun couldn't make the DC.

[Realms of Chaos]

FAQ
What is Cthulhu's True Name?

Answer:
Chuck Norris.

There is no way you're going to succeed on that Truespeak check.

Even Pun-Pun couldn't make the DC.

Reading this has just made my day. I can't even begin to express how much I LOVE these forums.

[Lix Lorn]

...
All four of you, can I quote that exchange? XD

[Magicyop]

Yup, fine with me. I laughed reading the responses.

[Realms of Chaos]

Fine with me as well. Spread the word.

[Tacitus]

Aye, I'm fine with it.