[Nexus] The Wall III: Wall Harder

[Lord Magtok]

I am still far greater because of my god, which is obviously better than yours!

Suppose for a moment that I decided to convert, and now have the same god as you. Now, I've never turned Reinholdt into a vampire before. Not even once, even though the idea sounds kinda cool. Hypothetically speaking, doesn't this automatically make me better than you, by your own definitions of greatness?

[Earl of Purple]

My Deity is dark. Very dark; humanoid-sacrifice-accepted-but-not-entirely-necessary dark. And yet, after my death, I fully expect to be honoured with a position of power and prestige, doing His will and enjoying myself in my spare time. As opposed to, say, being devoured alive in a sea of flesh eating beetles for the rest of eternity. This is because only stupid deities, regardless of relative light or dark, punishes those that serve it for the rest of eternity. Maybe if my soul was tricked from me, or if I didn't worship Him but murdered people for fun, or whatever, then maybe I'll be tortured for eternity. Especially if I instead worshipped a deity who claims to represent the 'light' and had a host of constantly singing angels. My deity, rather than forcing anybody to sing 24/7, gives its extraplanar followers tasks that matter to Him but most of all lets them do what they want most of the time.

[Hattish Thing]

Hmm...lemme think about that...

Dude, trust me, just shut up now...they'll find you.

No, it wouldn't...technically....Mainly because my father was a high priest, and yours...was not I presume. Though....being a high priest didn't help him in the end when we found his body twisted backwards and upside down...stabbed with his own stake...ew....that was foul. My father was a priest, therefore I'm better by bloodline! That, and I've done my fair share of good deeds! Like....arresting that Aceford guy! And uh....killing whatshername...and...uh....killing those rioters...and....uh...

[OrchestraHc]

My Deity is dark. Very dark; humanoid-sacrifice-accepted-but-not-entirely-necessary dark. And yet, after my death, I fully expect to be honoured with a position of power and prestige, doing His will and enjoying myself in my spare time. As opposed to, say, being devoured alive in a sea of flesh eating beetles for the rest of eternity. This is because only stupid deities, regardless of relative light or dark, punishes those that serve it for the rest of eternity. Maybe if my soul was tricked from me, or if I didn't worship Him but murdered people for fun, or whatever, then maybe I'll be tortured for eternity. Especially if I instead worshipped a deity who claims to represent the 'light' and had a host of constantly singing angels. My deity, rather than forcing anybody to sing 24/7, gives its extraplanar followers tasks that matter to Him but most of all lets them do what they want most of the time.

You worship a crappy religion. No seriously, you put faith in a cockroach based off of insect population and flawed theoretical ecology.

That it has any worshipers at all is disgusting. It is disgusting that people would worship something that would gladly eat their own brother.

Dalachrech worshipers are slavers and sacrifice sapient creatures. Spread the word.

[Lost_Deep]

In a world where a mushroom can grow a cult overnight...

[Earl of Purple]

When I was growing up, I had a choice. I could worship the deity of the man who saved my life, or the deity whose followers imperilled my life and killed my family. That is no choice. One of my titles is 'the Divine Cockroach'. This is because when I was eight, my village was attacked by paladins searching for rebels- or more accurately, anybody that didn't follow the monotheistic religion of the Lord of Tyranny. I was stabbed through the shoulder and left for dead; everyone else died. I was taken in by a tinker, who raised me in the faith of Dalachrech. Then, when I was twenty four, my homeworld was destroyed. Again, I was the only survivor. Dalachrech, again, saved me. My religion may practice slavery, but it doesn't in Inside, at my Temple, though slavery was not only common and accepted, but near ubiquitous. There weren't laws against it, but killing a slave, even your own, was murder, and harming one without the owner's permission was property damage, and both had hefty sentences.

[Hattish Thing]

Dalachrech scum!

[happyturtle]

Wait, how do you know that you turned Reinholdt into a vampire? Isn't that still a secret to almost everybody IC? Duuuude, don't you know there's a special circle of Hell for the sin of using OOC knowledge?

Wait, Jeanne, how do you know he's using OOC knowledge when you have no way of knowing who really knows Reinholdt's secret?

Decker, how do you know its Jeanne talking instead of one of the other people who use red text? Isn't that metagaming too?

Moff, who invited you to this conversation? Get lost!

THIS WALL POST HAS BEEN CANCELLED DUE TO EXTREME SILLINESS.

[OrchestraHc]

Wah! Wah! Sad backstory! Wah! Pathos! Wah!

A lot of us have sad history's, self included. Peddle that else where.

No that's not entirely fair. Maybe you were choosing the lesser of two evils at the time. Unimportant now.

We don't practice slavery. Talk to those other guys.

You also don't condemn those of your religion who do. Do more to separate yourself from them than say your a "reformed" dung beetle worshiper. Saying you don't practice slavery HERE means nothing. You have to denounce it everywhere. You also say nothing about human sacrifice which you should also do something about. If he doesn't necessitate it, than why do it? Condemn those who do or you are just as responsible

Slavery was totally okay where I'm from. Our slavery was totally nicer than regular slavery too.

Slavery is abominable. Regardless of the form. Objectionably abominable. If you disagree, become a slave yourself and see how happy you are.

I restate: Dalchrech's worshipers are slavers and sacrifice humans to an evil roach.

Q.E.D.

~Quid era die-in-a-fire

xOxO Blondie

[The Alexandrian]

If your cult is as unblighted as you preach, why don't you relate to these good readers the other side of the story, Dalach-wretch-ian.

Your cult doesn't practice slavery in Inside because your temple would be curbstomped by Remnant if you did, bless their souls! You fear them. You conveniently neglect to mention that we slaves didn't vend ourselves to you! It wasn't our choice! We followed your priestesses or we were tortured with dull knives and barbed whips. And you could've been one of us. Doesn't that strum the shredded strings of your black, shriveled heart? Were you born under different circumstances by no fault of your own, you'd have spent your life in a cage. Like an animal. Treated worse than an animal until you were bought as a toy by a power-mad, curtain-addicted, and abusive witch. But that's not the worst scenario that we could've been trapped in! Not by a long shot.

I'm not launching a scurrilous verbal attack against you, but I am dauntlessly calling you out. Slavery is wrong and you know it! Now give us back our sister and we'll simmer down. If you don't, we'll see to it that you're persecuted by even the serpents that crawl on their bellies through the dirt!

And all you slavers out there, you're going to burn. Someday, you're going to burn. And the world isn't going to miss you. You'll be left for the crows and forgotten before your body is cold!

[Earl of Purple]

I have no authority over whomever it is that holds your sister, I am afraid, nor do I know where to find her. I am not privy to the exact locations of my cousin temples. However, I know the 'slaves' of the Riverside Temple. They are the property of Dalachrech, meaning that undue harm is not allowable, nor is raping them. This means they are treated with the utmost respect and rarely mistreated. This is important, as they are all mute, and all illiterate. If they are freed, they cannot support themselves- illiteracy and muteness are rarely prime candidates for a decent-paying job, and as they currently have food, drink, and clothing provided for them they want for nothing. I am not saying that slavery is right, even in this circumstance, just that without it, they'd either be dead, homeless, or forced into slavery elsewhere, somewhere that won't necessarily look after them as well as they are now.

[Lost_Deep]

(...)

Slavery is abominable. Regardless of the form. Objectionably abominable. If you disagree, become a slave yourself and see how happy you are.

I restate: Dalchrech's worshipers are slavers and sacrifice humans to an evil roach.

Q.E.D.

~Quid era die-in-a-fire

xOxO Blondie

8/10

Very nicely done. Systematic disassembly of an argument is always nice to see.

[OrchestraHc]

8/10

Very nicely done. Systematic disassembly of an argument is always nice to see.

Anything I can do to hit 10/10. I'm a bit of perfectionist.

I have no authority over whomever it is that holds your sister, I am afraid, nor do I know where to find her. I am not privy to the exact locations of my cousin temples. However, I know the 'slaves' of the Riverside Temple. They are the property of Dalachrech, meaning that undue harm is not allowable, nor is raping them. This means they are treated with the utmost respect and rarely mistreated. This is important, as they are all mute, and all illiterate. If they are freed, they cannot support themselves- illiteracy and muteness are rarely prime candidates for a decent-paying job, and as they currently have food, drink, and clothing provided for them they want for nothing. I am not saying that slavery is right, even in this circumstance, just that without it, they'd either be dead, homeless, or forced into slavery elsewhere, somewhere that won't necessarily look after them as well as they are now.

They're mute because you have a nasty habit of cutting out tongues. I've seen that Dalachrechian handiwork. Undue harm my ass.

Literacy can be taught and muteness can be overcome. Sign language and text to speech devices are both real things. Don't try to rationalize.

Die slowly and painfully.

xOxO Blondie

[happyturtle]

GLoG provides food, housing, and refuge for escaped or rescued slaves.

[Hattish Thing]

Wait, how do you know that you turned Reinholdt into a vampire? Isn't that still a secret to almost everybody IC? Duuuude, don't you know there's a special circle of Hell for the sin of using OOC knowledge?

Wait, Jeanne, how do you know he's using OOC knowledge when you have no way of knowing who really knows Reinholdt's secret?

Decker, how do you know its Jeanne talking instead of one of the other people who use red text? Isn't that metagaming too?

Moff, who invited you to this conversation? Get lost!

THIS WALL POST HAS BEEN CANCELLED DUE TO EXTREME SILLINESS.

I believe Thenadier actually talked to him before I left for a while.

[Earl of Purple]

These slaves were mute when they were bought. Literacy is possible; they have refused to learn. They were born to slaves, and literacy makes one more valuable and more likely to be split from family, friends and so on. They have been told they won't be sold, but they still refuse. They are still treated as colleagues by the clerics that work there, and that won't change.

[ThirdEmperor]

GLoG provides food, housing, and refuge for escaped or rescued slaves.

And I'll make robotongues for them!

Dalachrech sucks!

[happyturtle]

Notice:

Understanding that Remnant does not have jurisdiction outside of the city of Inside, I would like to personally offer a bounty for anyone who captures or kills a member of the Orthodox or Middling branches of the Dalachrechian cult, as well as a bounty for every slave or potential sapient sacrifice rescued. I know my views on racial mixing are unpopular, but I strongly believe that the behaviour of the Dalachrechians is abhorrent, whether directed towards humans or other sapients, and should be stopped by whatever means necessary.

Please contact Starling on <number> for questions or to collect.

((OOC: Check with Earl of Purple before sending PCs after his cult, please, to make sure he's up for it and that the power levels involved are reasonable. ))

((OOC: You can use the Inside thread for telephoning Brian Starling. I usually follow it, but poking me is fine too.))

This offer is still open.

[OrchestraHc]

These slaves were mute when they were bought. Literacy is possible; they have refused to learn. They were born to slaves, and literacy makes one more valuable and more likely to be split from family, friends and so on. They have been told they won't be sold, but they still refuse. They are still treated as colleagues by the clerics that work there, and that won't change.

Don't act as though allowing them to be servile is some amazing feat of kindness. Even if that was all true, which empirical data suggests it isn't, slavery is slavery.

[Earl of Purple]

If we're banning servitude, perhaps we should fire all those who make their living serving others. Servants, cooks, maids, butlers, dogsbodies, cleaners, launderette workers, farmyard helpers, car washers, waiters, bell boys, and the like. I dare say some make do with smaller homes and less food than High Priest Defelent supplies to the slaves that work for him. Or, to make more people unhappy, perhaps everybody that enjoys being dominated in a recreational manner should be locked up. Or for another extreme, doctors, nurses, farmers, firefighters and the police all serve the public good. Maybe they should be fired, too. Servility is not a sin, and I assure you that Defelent treats the slaves attached to his Temple with more respect than a nobleman treats the maid that makes his bed or the cook that makes his breakfast.

[Lost_Deep]

That's not what was said at all.

Servile: slavishly submissive or obsequious; fawning.

Slavery specifically refers to unpaid and/or unwilling servants.

[OrchestraHc]

At least those people know they are free!

Butlers aren't bound to a family. They can quit, they can leave, they can seek better, they can choose to not be a butler anymore and be a fireman or a police officer.

You act like letting people, who probably don't understand that freedom is a thing that can happen to them, be your slaves is an act of immeasurable kindness!

Anyone can serve another, but they should do it of their own will, not because they belong to someone!

[Earl of Purple]

How about a housemaid? She's free. She goes home from work with less money than it takes for her needs. She can choose heating, or food. So she quits, tries to find another job. But all she's qualified for is being a maid; nobody else wants her. Her last position's already filled, and they wouldn't want her back anyway- she proved she had low morale by quitting, and maybe certain things went missing after she left, or just before. Even if she didn't take them, they'll suspect she did. So she finds another job- it's a housemaid again, but there's less money. Is that free? Yes, it's free to starve, get kicked out due to non payment of rent, free to live on the streets.

As for you, DarkGreen (or maybe just Green; I'm not too good at guessing) if one is unpaid, they are a slave, even if they are willing? So is one a slave if they are unwilling, but paid?

[Lost_Deep]

Your point in my direction is made. An operational definition is in order.

Slavery: Any situation in which one person is owned by another person.

As for the hypotheticals:

Unpaid, willing: I think this is either charity or a mental disorder.
Paid, unwilling: Indentured servitude.

[OrchestraHc]

How about a housemaid? She's free. She goes home from work with less money than it takes for her needs. She can choose heating, or food. So she quits, tries to find another job. But all she's qualified for is being a maid; nobody else wants her. Her last position's already filled, and they wouldn't want her back anyway- she proved she had low morale by quitting, and maybe certain things went missing after she left, or just before. Even if she didn't take them, they'll suspect she did. So she finds another job- it's a housemaid again, but there's less money. Is that free? Yes, it's free to starve, get kicked out due to non payment of rent, free to live on the streets.

My heart goes out to the hypothetical housemaid. A free life is hard and unfair, but at least it's free. She can still try to eke out a better life, she is still her own woman, and she can still have hope.

As for you, DarkGreen (or maybe just Green; I'm not too good at guessing) if one is unpaid, they are a slave, even if they are willing? So is one a slave if they are unwilling, but paid?

Not who you directed it to, but still, screw it. Volunteers are willing yet unpaid, but they can leave and seek something difference. A slave can be willing yet unpaid but should he become unwilling he wouldn't suddenly get paid or be allowed to leave.

If your forcing someone to work and shoving dollars in their hand they're still slaves.

[Earl of Purple]

She wasn't hypothetical. She was a parishioner, who turned to religion to find solace. Fortunately, I had an opportunity and found her a placement with an elderly gentleman, a retired entomologist specialising in biological pest control, who needed somebody to help feed his pet spiders since he can no longer go to the loo on his own. He had a nurse, but she hates spiders and wasn't willing to touch even the millipede. Without my help, she would likely have found work in a brothel to stay alive and the old gentleman's invertebrates would have starved. Or escaped and started preying upon the neighbourhood cats.

As for the unwilling, paid worker: I think that makes everybody, at some point, a slave. When they're ill, but can't afford a day off. When they'd rather be with their family on a sunny afternoon than cooped up in an office. When they know there's a great party going on but need to get up in the morning to miss rush hour. Sure, they could leave- but they won't. They think they need the job, or the money, or whatever.

[Lost_Deep]

If they don't get up and walk, it's their own fault.

If they are held at gunpoint, it's slavery.

[OrchestraHc]

She wasn't hypothetical. She was a parishioner, who turned to religion to find solace. Fortunately, I had an opportunity and found her a placement with an elderly gentleman, a retired entomologist specialising in biological pest control, who needed somebody to help feed his pet spiders since he can no longer go to the loo on his own. He had a nurse, but she hates spiders and wasn't willing to touch even the millipede. Without my help, she would likely have found work in a brothel to stay alive and the old gentleman's invertebrates would have starved. Or escaped and started preying upon the neighbourhood cats.

So your argument has almost nothing to do with discussion on slavery and was just a chance to show that your religion isn't JUST slavery and human sacrifice. Nice try, but ineffective. Because of all the slavery and human sacrifice you do.

Glad she life rolled her way. Glad she's not a prostitute. Shame she follows a religion of a bunch of slavers and murderers. I'm sure she's a nice lady.

You didn't actually answer my argument.

As for the unwilling, paid worker: I think that makes everybody, at some point, a slave. When they're ill, but can't afford a day off. When they'd rather be with their family on a sunny afternoon than cooped up in an office. When they know there's a great party going on but need to get up in the morning to miss rush hour. Sure, they could leave- but they won't. They think they need the job, or the money, or whatever.

Choice is key here. Short term it seems to them like they are bound because they need the money, but in the end the choice is always theirs.

[The Alexandrian]

We were being paid? And treated well? Why wasn't I ever informed of that? This is news to me! We were barely fed enough nutriment to ward off death and sustain our bodies so that we were alive and warm whenever our mistress could be troubled to feed us and shackled in the upright position to a stone wall while we slept! With one of us sitting atop the other whenever your priestess wasn't curtaining one of us without our consent!

The slavers were bad, but they didn't do that to us because they'd lose money if we weren't...you know.

But I'm not about to retaliate against Dalachrech just yet. I'm wish to do the world a favor and bring the slavers that bred me to justice.

Love ya, Blondie and DarkGreen. This world needs more people like you who are willing to stand up for what they believe in and believe in virtue and the rights of the individual.

[Earl of Purple]

This is a different Temple, and a discussion about the slaves attached directly to that Temple rather than to the individual priests, or in this case, paladins.

As for your argument, 'Blondie', she had lost hope. That's why she turned to religion- she was looking for some to replace that she'd lost. She chose ours only because our Temple was closest. Every religion is a religion of murderers, even if they don't practice human sacrifice. That guy earlier, saying his religion was better than ours, is a murderer. He freely admitted it, too. He's not the only one. Every religion wants power, and for most that is through converting people from other religions. Sometimes this is achieved through preaching on street corners. Often, it's faster and more efficient to just find a heathen village, kill everyone who resists and torture those that are left until they convert. It's not acceptable, but it's still done. And not just by deities whose PR is poor to begin with, either. When the devout hear of it, sometimes they rejoice in the knowledge that those survivors have had their souls saved from eternal torment; sometimes they refuse to believe it and declare it a lie spread by the filthy heathens whom are going to damnation for far greater sins than lying.