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2017-09-25, 05:41 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2016
Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
I must say I was definitely engaging in hyperbole when I said a massive amount of damage, however I recall that back in 2nd ed katana's were definitely above other swords being faster and deadlier than 99% of medium weapons. In 3.5 they were automatically considered masterwork bastard swords. And in Palladium (if I recall correctly) they were the most powerful sword not including some unique one offs. So we're up to about 6 systems including some of the most popular of the past 40 years. I'd say my acquired distaste is justified.
Firm opponent of the one true path
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2017-09-25, 05:53 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2009
- Location
- In my library
Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
On the plus side, I remember them being just as expensive. I believe it was more of a case of 'each one took a long time and was made as good as possible, so they were masterwork'. Which in all honesty wasn't a massive boost, and was only really relevant for the first few levels.
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2017-09-25, 06:00 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2016
- Location
- The Lakes
Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
ASoIaF -- a perfect example of a work more fixated on trope-busting than actual quality fiction. It tries so hard that it just becomes its own set of cliches.
And yet it's loved by many, which I just do not get.It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2017-09-25, 06:10 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2015
Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
On ASoIaF: ... Does that stand for A Song of Ice and Fire? That's the only thing I can think of but it is a rather awkward short form. I got about half way into chapter 1 before I stopped reading that.
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2017-09-25, 06:19 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2016
- Location
- The Lakes
Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2017-09-25, 06:28 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2013
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2017-09-25, 06:29 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2013
Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
The writing is solid, but the world building is utter garbage. So much just feels utterly arbitrary without even a token nod or lampshade or anything and everyone is dumbfoundingly stupid, incredible sadistic for no good reason, a puppet, or some mix of these. Everyone. It's like diet FATAL at times honestly.
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2017-09-25, 07:23 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2015
- Location
- Gondor, Middle Earth
- Gender
Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
<Number> <Important Thing> that the hero needs to get.
Slay the three dragons of evil, find the four crowns of destiny, raise the three hammers high, etc.
Okay, maybe I like that last one.I'm a Lawful Good Human PaladinJustice and honor are a heavy burden for the righteous. We carry this weight so that the weak may grow strong and the meek grow brave
— The Acts of Iomedae, Pathfinder
Avatar made by Professor Gnoll
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2017-09-25, 07:28 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2009
- Gender
Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
It always amazes me how often people on forums would rather accuse you of misreading their posts with malice than re-explain their ideas with clarity.
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2017-09-25, 07:37 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2008
Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
Ugh, repetitive gathering quests. They're obnoxious enough when they show up in video games, but plots this bad cropping up in actual books are just terrible. This is one of the reason the Deltora Quest novels are terrible - sure, they're aimed at young children with limited taste, but there's decent writing in that category and those aren't it.
I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.
I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that. -- ChubbyRain
Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.
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2017-09-25, 07:45 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2013
Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
I disagree.
Back in the Golden Age, the farts were more powerful and so smelly that great heroes could weaponise them. The majestic sight of fart-powered wizards strafing the Dark Lord's goblin hordes could bring tears to your eyes. Indeed, some sages believe that the Great Bean Blight of '36 was responsible for the ending of the Golden Age.
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2017-09-25, 07:49 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2016
- Gender
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2017-09-25, 07:59 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2012
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2017-09-25, 08:11 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2016
Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
I like to deconstruct this by having it that the gods chose them by picking their name out of a hat.
Hey, that could be a quest or even an entire campaign. The gods' magic hat with the names of all intelligent beings in it has been stolen by the dark lord. It's become clear that a bunch of normal prople are going to have to go after it because the gods cannot choose champions without it."If you want to understand biology don't think about vibrant throbbing gels and oozes, think about information technology" -Richard Dawkins
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2017-09-25, 08:14 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2005
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Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
It's not so much that I consider it a trope/cliche that annoys me as I consider it to be dull writing most of the time. I mean, it can be done well, like Akatsuki no Yona, where the protagonist sets out to find the four legendary dragon warriors - it is actually really well done, IMHO.
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2017-09-25, 08:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
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Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
Well if I were deconstructing it, I'd just turn it from a fighting of objective good and evil into a fight between two warring gods neither better than the other, using propaganda to paint the other side as evil and their chosen one as the champion, and that either chosen one winning would be bad, because one god would conquer over the other god do a lot of oppression upon the people who worship that god. and yes you can still have action with that kind of set up, think medieval fantasy gundam without the mecha.
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2017-09-25, 09:31 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2015
Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
The four elements are slightly over done, and by slightly I mean a lot. Still they are different and I would take that over 4 different pieces of ancient demon slaying armour. And no one has really managed to "improve" the elemental system very much. Even other stories that I have enjoyed with different systems, well there systems are a bit odd. Like ice is really "not fire" when you get down to it.
Also what is your opinion on elemental bending?
I'll agree they were not great, but I wouldn't call them terrible. Any other particular reasons?
I have absolutely nothing of significance to say, except I have it open on the other tab. And yes I'm enjoying it.
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2017-09-25, 09:46 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2012
- Gender
Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
A scarcity of inhumane punishments in an otherwise medieval society is a big one for me. Traitors, murderers, spies and a host of lesser criminals shouldn't be getting thrown in a cell for years without a good reason, they should be getting public executions. Strangely common quality among humans until fairly recently was horrific public executions for a host of crimes.
Second is the good kingdom that has been good and ruled by good people for centuries. It strains my belief that there's been no political murders, cultural frenzies akin to the anti-Jew or anti-Spaniard paranoia that would occasionally run through England, rebellions by peasants or nobles, religious conflict, regime changes, insane or just unpleasant rulers, major wars, plagues, famines or gross misamanagment of the realm for even 30 years, let alone hundreds of them.Sanity is nice to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.
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2017-09-25, 10:04 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2015
- Location
- LA, California
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Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
Aroo? I didn't disagree with myself at all.
My gods aren't anything like the example I gave there. They aren't all-knowing, they just have access to powerful divination magics that can give them the ability to see things if they want to, and they did take a very active role in solving world problems for a long time. The problem is, imagine being revered as this all-knowing, all-powerful entity which is the guise they used, and being expected to solve all the problems for everyone all the time. Millions of people praying to you, all wanting different things, and you having to dedicate all your time to problem solving and cleaning up other people's messes. And these aren't eternal, cosmic entities that were basically birthed by the universe to serve this function, these were former adventurers. They just got tired of the whole thing. After everyone they knew and cared about died of old age, after their children and children's children live their lives and died of old age, they just got kind of tired of it all.
It's like working a high stress, high maintenance job without vacations for thousands of years and finally just getting fed up with it and quitting.
My deities still exist, and they created their own servants (like solars and devas) with very construct-like absolute mentalities that continue to channel power to followers and occasionally answer prayers from the truly devout and so on, but the "gods" themselves as it were created their own little paradises they dwell in and they just don't really care much about the world anymore and kind of stopped checking in on it, like an old video game they just got tired of playing.
But these aren't your typical gods. They don't know everything, they aren't all powerful, it's all just a big sham anyway to make people believe that. Because FAITH is stronger than the reality. And just like the real world, people who believe in it can't be convinced otherwise regardless of the fact prayers never really get answered and evil is allowed to exist, the faithful always make up excuses for why their deity doesn't do certain things. And they credit them for "answering prayers" everytime they pray for something and it does just happen to happen, like the real world. Unlike the real world though, the clerics are in fact gifted with some measure of divine power which helps build faith and belief in the people and it does prove to some extent that there is certainly something there.
They just don't realize it's a bunch of retired veterans who are all soaking it up on a never ending beach drinking fruity beverages surrounded by beautiful women in another reality they created for themselves for their own amusement.
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2017-09-25, 10:16 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2016
- Location
- Back home
- Gender
Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
Originally Posted by Pex
This is one of the reason the Deltora Quest novels are terrible - sure, they're aimed at young children with limited taste, but there's decent writing in this category and those aren't it.
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2017-09-25, 10:53 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2009
- Gender
Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
Bending is great in that one setting defined by it, and the two cartoon series that were defined by that setting.
But put bending in some other setting for the sake of "bending is cool" and you'd have missed the point entirely.
The thing that sells bending as cool to me is the way they are all connected to an approach to problem-solving that is adopted like a philosophy by the elementally color-coded people in the world, like how earthbending is about being stubborn and withstanding things while waterbending is about change and adaptation. Take bending out of that context and say a wizard in your fantasy setting can move water by gesturing, and it's suddenly become really bland and awful.It always amazes me how often people on forums would rather accuse you of misreading their posts with malice than re-explain their ideas with clarity.
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2017-09-26, 01:03 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2014
Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
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2017-09-26, 01:06 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2012
- Location
- Lakewood, Colorado
- Gender
Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
Humanoid species used to represent real life races. Instead of using, say, moon elves to symbolize black people, why not just write black people?
Anything with swords and horses being called "medieval".
Pragmatism = cowardice.
Guns being dishonorable.
The main character being either always right or always wrong.
Morality being always black and white or always gray, instead of having all of them in the same setting.
I'm sure I'll think of more.I imagine Elminster's standard day begins like "Wake up, exit my completely impenetrable, spell-proofed bedroom to go to the bathroom, kill the inevitable 3 balors waiting there, brush my teeth, have a wizard fight with the archlich hiding in the shower, use the toilet..."
-Waterdeep Merch.
Laphicet avatar by linklele.
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2017-09-26, 01:44 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2016
Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
"If you want to understand biology don't think about vibrant throbbing gels and oozes, think about information technology" -Richard Dawkins
Omegaupdate Forum
WoTC Forums Archive + Indexing Projext
PostImage, a free and sensible alternative to Photobucket
Temple+ Modding Project for Atari's Temple of Elemental Evil
Morrus' RPG Forum (EN World v2)
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2017-09-26, 02:37 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2009
- Location
- In my library
Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
You see, I dislike it enough to just avert it. Any prophecies about chosen ones are bunk, in fact anything smaller than a town can't be prophesized (and even then you want a decent sized city for good results).
To get me to subvert or deconstruct a troops I have to actually care about it. Most of the time I don't.
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2017-09-26, 03:34 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2015
- Location
- Berlin
- Gender
Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
"Evil is always self-destructive and stupid" annoys me to no end. "Might makes right" even more so, especially when the protagonist has to steadily learn ever greater "power" of one sort or another to overcome the opposition.
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2017-09-26, 06:54 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2015
Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
That was just supposed to be a reference to those two series, not actually about bending. Maybe I should have reference the series directly. Probably. But still the first series is definitely built around an elemental themed fetch quest, although A) they start with one and B) it is practice and not an object that is being "fetched".
To 90sMusic: No you didn't disagree with yourself. It was just a little joke about the phrasing of the quoted section.
Hero's Home is Destroyed:
Not always bad but often overused and rarely has the emotional impact it is supposed to because I (the reader) don't know these people nor to they feel like real people yet and the protagonist tends to move on so quickly or... actually that's the main on. I suppose there is plenty of room for edgelord from it but I don't see that so often.
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2017-09-26, 09:37 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2008
Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.
I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that. -- ChubbyRain
Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.
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2017-09-26, 10:09 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2013
Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
DND was awful about this until 3rd ed. 2nd Ed AD&D not only were elves absolutely amazing as a race but also they were biologically immortal. When they grew to old they would simply leave. IIRC it was literally to the West.
One of the tropes I hate the most is the Awesome Super Race that is Better Than You. I watch a lot of sci-fi so I know more advanced races appear and having them intimidating and advanced without turning it into an anatomy waving contest is hard and, in my opinion, this trope is generally handled well but, when they fail it hurts and pretty much guarantees I cannot take the story/world/mythos etc seriously anymore. For me the biggest offender were the elves in the Eragon books but there are other examples.
Otherwise I am generally okay with tropes as long as they fit into the narrative/world well for reasons beyond that they are tropes.
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2017-09-26, 11:00 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2014
- Gender
Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
The fact that in most fantasy settings magic is consequence free.
Last edited by S@tanicoaldo; 2017-09-26 at 11:00 AM.