General WoD Discussion #1: Assemble

[ocel]

All WoD fans, both old & new, unite under a common interest as we shall use this thread to discuss, & develop, our campaigns on this forum; & help those interested in this setting/system. First issue of discussion, would anyone wish to establish their WoD homebrew to be archived at a later date?
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• Genius the Transgression
• Leviathan The Tempest

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[Morty]

I'm something of a new World of Darkness fan. I've been aware of it for quite some time now, but I've started playing it seriously only relatively recently. So far, I have played in three Hunter: the Vigil stories and ran one. I joined a PbP Changeling: the Lost game as well. I also plan to run Vampire: the Requiem sometime in the future.

[CN the Logos]

Just got into NWoD myself, and I'm currently Storytelling two chronicles: a Geist game set in an AU, larger and crummier version of Panama City Florida, and a Promethean game set in the distant spacefuture with only one player.

My girlfriend has has also let me indefinitely borrow her copy of Vampire: the Requiem, so in my spare time I'm working on a set of alternate rules to bring vampires more in line with actual folklore. While I understand the reasoning behind some of Vampire's changes, I still don't like many of them, and I figure if nothing else a few alternate rules that make vampires more powerful (and less flammable) might be useful for Storytellers. I hope to have a rough draft of my suggested changes up for suggestions comments and critique by next week or the week after. I expect it'll be rough, because I'm new, but that's why I'd like to get some more experienced players involved.

If anyone is interested in running a one-player play-by-post game of Geist: The Sin-Eaters on this forum, let me know. I have a couple of good character ideas that I don't think I'm ever going to get to play in person, as I am always the GM. Always.

[Selrahc]

I've seen Genius, but Leviathan the Tempest? Anyone want to do a quick explanation? I'm guessing it's some sort of Cthlhuesque splat.

[Urpriest]

A question: has anyone ever homebrewed a Taltos splat?

[Wings of Peace]

Just saying hello. I'm fairly new to NWOD as a whole but I've spent a reasonable amount of time experimenting and researching optimizing with Mages.

[CN the Logos]

I've seen Genius, but Leviathan the Tempest? Anyone want to do a quick explanation? I'm guessing it's some sort of Cthlhuesque splat.

Pretty much. The PCs are descended from Tiamat via one of her children (one of which is in fact Dagon), and can take forms ranging from near human to full blown daikaiju-esque monstrosities, although embracing inhumanity too hard or for too long dings the Karma Meter a bit. There are a lot of psychic type powers, some other stuff I haven't read yet, and most notably, as you are the descendent of a nigh-omnipotent being that predated the gods, mere mortals feel compelled to worship you whether you want the attention or not (the Wake).

The obligatory suffering comes from a few things. They've been steadily declining in influence since their N times great grandmother was killed, and haven't done anything significant since the Bronze Age. They can almost never have an actual friendly relationship with the people around them since the Wake overwrites free will to the extent that the mortals closest to them will eventually just say and do whatever the leviathan wants, like puppets made of meat. While they can live for a very long time, as they grow older, they find it harder and harder to relate to humanity, to the point where they eventually become the gigantic sea monsters of legend, who only remember what they once were in melancholy dreams. Also, there's a brand new hunter organization consisting of cultists dedicated to Marduk, who feel it is their job to murder any leviathans they find (like the Illuminati except dedicated to harpooning you and blasting you with electricity until you die). And sometimes the Wake makes people hate you instead of worship you, and people warped that way become hunters that can track you across the planet.

In short, they don't have it as bad as Prometheans, but they're probably at least as screwed up as the average changeling.

I like what I've read more than I liked many of the official splats, honestly (as I mentioned before, I'm planning to houserule Vampire to death, I don't know what to make of Werewolf, and the True Fae of Changling just don't fit in the cosmology I'm playing with without heavy modification, but Leviathan strikes a chord with me as is). It's a shame the people working on it seem to have given up on releasing a PDF; I hate reading rules off the RPGnet wiki.

[Caliphbubba]

I really love the oWoD. I've played in and ran tons of different games for most of the various sub-systems. Including several LARPs, even ST'd and helped organize a multi-city LARP collective based in Indiana/Ohio for around 5 years.

I never did play in a Wrath game tho.

Currently I'm running a Sabbat infiltration type game and a "First Change" Werewolf game, and am playing a Virtual Adept/Order of Hermes in a Mage game.

Be happy to help brainstorm with folks about their games.

I know next to nothing about the nWoD. I've looked at some of the fluff stuff from the Requiem and Forsaken lines, but really know very little in the grand scope of things.

[ToySoldierCPlus]

I just started looking at the nWoD a few weeks ago, when a friend invited me to join his game. Currently playing a Sin-Eater, and Geist is the only system that I've read in its entirety, though I know a decent amount about the various other sub-systems courtesy of TVTropes and a thread I found on another forum.

Moving on, I do find myself with one question that the core rulebook seems to contradict itself on. How does spending experience work? I know there's a chart in the book, and it's on the bottom of the character sheet, but the text in the book makes me wonder if I've been doing it wrong all this time. Simply put, if I have 3 dots in Occult, and I want to buy a 4th dot, do I have to spend 3 points or 12? Same question for Attributes, Merits, and pretty much anything else. If I want to buy a new dot in an attribute, or a 3-dot merit, am I just paying for the new dots, or am I paying for each dot individually, and stacking the costs?

[The Glyphstone]

It's dot-cost times new dot rank, something that is standardized across the entire NWoD minus special circumstances. Skills cost 3*new dot, and you're buying the 4th dot of Occult, so you'll have to spend 12XP. Dots must be bought sequentially, so if you had Occult 0 and wanted Occult 4, that would be 3+6+9+12=30XP.

(Merits are screwy, since I initially learned WoD via the MET rules that distinguish between flat-cost merits and graduated merits, so I can't really help there.)

[ToySoldierCPlus]

Ah, so I have been doing it wrong. Nuts. Oh well, time to go take the character apart and rebuild him.

EDIT: Alright more questions. Increasing my character's Psyche to 3 dots form the default 1 after character creation should cost me (New Dots x 8) = (2 x 8) for the second dot, and then an extra (3 x 8) for the third dot, for a grand total of (16 + 24) = 40 points, correct?

Further, creating a Vanitas memento should cost (New Dots x 2), so (1 x 2) + (2 x 2) = 6 dots total for the first and second dots of the merit, right? Or would it be only 4 dots, because the merit can't be bought at one dot, it can only be bought in its 2 dot form? I think each memento has to be purchased as a separate merit, so a Charm only costs 2 points, because it's a 1 dot merit, and a Vanitas costs either 4 or 6, depending on which version of my math is right, because it's a 2 dot merit, and having a vanitas doesn't mean I also get a charm. Right?

[The_Jackal]

I'm a big oWoD fan, particularly Vampire in its various incarnations. I never felt the other splats matched Vampire in terms of quality of genre and they certainly fell prey to Supplementitis, where each progressive splat is even more wildly overpowered than the last.

[The Glyphstone]

Ah, so I have been doing it wrong. Nuts. Oh well, time to go take the character apart and rebuild him.

EDIT: Alright more questions. Increasing my character's Psyche to 3 dots form the default 1 after character creation should cost me (New Dots x 8) = (2 x 8) for the second dot, and then an extra (3 x 8) for the third dot, for a grand total of (16 + 24) = 40 points, correct?

100% correct. If you want a higher-than-normal power stat, it's mechanically better to buy it during character generation, because it's horribly expensive via XP.

Further, creating a Vanitas memento should cost (New Dots x 2), so (1 x 2) + (2 x 2) = 6 dots total for the first and second dots of the merit, right? Or would it be only 4 dots, because the merit can't be bought at one dot, it can only be bought in its 2 dot form? I think each memento has to be purchased as a separate merit, so a Charm only costs 2 points, because it's a 1 dot merit, and a Vanitas costs either 4 or 6, depending on which version of my math is right, because it's a 2 dot merit, and having a vanitas doesn't mean I also get a charm. Right?

I have no idea, unfortunately. I think, by Tabletop rules, the Vanitas would cost 6.

[ToySoldierCPlus]

100% correct. If you want a higher-than-normal power stat, it's mechanically better to buy it during character generation, because it's horribly expensive via XP.

At least I have the math right on that one. The only problem with buying a higher power stat during character creation that I have is that it needs to be justified, which I like, but which I can't do so well at character creation, because, you know, the character is pretty much brand new at the whole "being a Sin-Eater" thing.

I have no idea, unfortunately. I think, by Tabletop rules, the Vanitas would cost 6.

I did the math as though it cost six, so for the moment, I'm leaving it there. I presume other merits are the same way? I.e., even if they only come in a 2 or 3 dot flavor, they cost as much as they would if they came in a 1 dot form and I was upgrading from there (so, 2 for the first dot, plus 4 for the second, and so on)?

[Yuki Akuma]

Any merit that only occurs at a specific, higher-than-one dot level costs the same as if you'd bought, say, Resources at that dot level. This is how merits work and how they're nominally balanced.

So a Vanitas costs 6 xp.

At least I have the math right on that one. The only problem with buying a higher power stat during character creation that I have is that it needs to be justified, which I like, but which I can't do so well at character creation, because, you know, the character is pretty much brand new at the whole "being a Sin-Eater" thing.

A good way to justify this with a Sin-Eater is to give him something in his backstory that brings him 'closer to death'. Maybe he grew up in a haunted house, or he was visited by the ghosts of his grandparents, or he survived the holocaust, or whatever.

[The Glyphstone]

At least I have the math right on that one. The only problem with buying a higher power stat during character creation that I have is that it needs to be justified, which I like, but which I can't do so well at character creation, because, you know, the character is pretty much brand new at the whole "being a Sin-Eater" thing.



I did the math as though it cost six, so for the moment, I'm leaving it there. I presume other merits are the same way? I.e., even if they only come in a 2 or 3 dot flavor, they cost as much as they would if they came in a 1 dot form and I was upgrading from there (so, 2 for the first dot, plus 4 for the second, and so on)?

Just explain it as bonding more thoroughly with your Geist than the average new Sin-Eater does - you were reborn with Psyche 2/3 from the start, you didn't come back with Psyche 1 and immediately improve it. Some people are just naturally gifted at mundane skills, no reason that can't apply to supernatural skills as well (if it wasn't meant to be an option for new characters, they wouldn't have made it allowable with starting dots).

On Merits - that's how it works, yeah.

[Friv]

I did the math as though it cost six, so for the moment, I'm leaving it there. I presume other merits are the same way? I.e., even if they only come in a 2 or 3 dot flavor, they cost as much as they would if they came in a 1 dot form and I was upgrading from there (so, 2 for the first dot, plus 4 for the second, and so on)?

You are correct.

You're going to run into confusion on the subject, because the tabletop rules for Merit increases and the LARP rules for Merit increases are not the same. In tabletop, you always pay for every dot, even if the dot doesn't do anything. (So, you technically have to buy Striking Looks 1 to be able to buy Striking Looks 2, at a total cost of 6 XP, even though Striking Looks 1 doesn't actually exist).

In LARP, from what I understand, that's only true if the dot in the middle does something. So you have to buy Allies 1 to reach Allies 2, but you only pay 2 for Striking Looks. I dislike this, as it makes some Merits much better to get at creation, and others much better to get with XP. (Which is already a problem, but I dislike anything that exacerbates it.)

[The Glyphstone]

You are correct.

You're going to run into confusion on the subject, because the tabletop rules for Merit increases and the LARP rules for Merit increases are not the same. In tabletop, you always pay for every dot, even if the dot doesn't do anything. (So, you technically have to buy Striking Looks 1 to be able to buy Striking Looks 2, at a total cost of 6 XP, even though Striking Looks 1 doesn't actually exist).

In LARP, from what I understand, that's only true if the dot in the middle does something. So you have to buy Allies 1 to reach Allies 2, but you only pay 2 for Striking Looks. I dislike this, as it makes some Merits much better to get at creation, and others much better to get with XP. (Which is already a problem, but I dislike anything that exacerbates it.)

It makes more sense in LARP though, because compared to tabletop games, live-action games (at least in organized club play) have a drastically lower rate of XP gain. A group that plays 1/week can gain 20XP/month, while live play caps you at 8XP/month no matter how many games you attend.

[ToySoldierCPlus]

All part of why I don't LARP.

Thanks for the help, everybody, it is much appreciated.

[Pokonic]

For another Fanline game, how about Dragon: The Embers?

Essentialy, you are a dragon. Not a old world of darkness Molk'e, but a real honking big dragon. However, your kinds time on earth ran out when humans started making bronze. Also, you cant repoduce, for a maiting between two dragons is a moderatly supernaturaly aware human. Rather, the only way a new dragon can be made is that a human eats a dragons heart. Oh, there are Hunter groups dedicated to killing and eating of your heart, and there are cannaibles among your kind that get high by eating hearts, further dimishing your races numbers. Oh, most mages would love to kill you for the propertes of your brain. The only supernatural you can realy get along with are werewolves, and thats only after you could convince them your not a overpowered Host.
The only known way to create another dragon heart is to kill 8 direct decendents of a dragon pairing, rip out there hearts, and use a ritual to fuse them together.

Ya, your so screwed to the point your life makes a Changelings seem happy and well ajusted.

[hiryuu]

For another Fanline game, how about Dragon: The Embers?

Essentialy, you are a dragon. Not a old world of darkness Molk'e, but a real honking big dragon.

Mokolé are real big honking dragons. With fire breathing. And the ability to devolve you into a fish.

However, your kinds time on earth ran out when humans started making bronze. Also, you cant repoduce, for a maiting between two dragons is a moderatly supernaturaly aware human. Rather, the only way a new dragon can be made is that a human eats a dragons heart. Oh, there are Hunter groups dedicated to killing and eating of your heart, and there are cannaibles among your kind that get high by eating hearts, further dimishing your races numbers. Oh, most mages would love to kill you for the propertes of your brain. The only supernatural you can realy get along with are werewolves, and thats only after you could convince them your not a overpowered Host.
The only known way to create another dragon heart is to kill 8 direct decendents of a dragon pairing, rip out there hearts, and use a ritual to fuse them together.

And its morality track needs to be looked at. Right now, the only way to get more moral is to be a self-righteous jerk. Which kinda defeats the purpose of a morality chart.

Ya, your so screwed to the point your life makes a Changelings seem happy and well ajusted.

Wait, all most of your enemies want to do is track you down and kill you for parts. How's that make a Changeling's life seem well-adjusted?

I seem to recall that there's references in some of the Hunter books to draconic ENEs that TFV has encountered in the past. There's also the spirit in Innocents, the Imaginaries, that can take draconic forms. Some of the True Fae are said to be dragon-like, as well, and I can imagine a hob that's also such a creature. Dragons appear in the astral, and they wouldn't unless it was some deep-rooted thing in the collective unconscious. There's obviously something there to play with, but unfortunately, unless you start collecting everything that's big and scaly under the heading "dragon," (which our culture appears to do) such monsters are strictly European, and it's not until you get to the Post-Tolkein era that they really talk back with any degree of fluency.

Fafnir became a dragon while being a miser with gold. Greek legend says the Spartans were descended from dragon's teeth, grown into warriors by planting them in the ground. There's a lot of really weird dragon mythology in Europe (and again, if you start collecting stories of anything large and reptilian, you can get a whole bunch more from outside Europe) that I don't see referenced much, and Dragon seems like it doesn't pull from or reference any of that. At all.

The Ulun'suti of Tsalagi folklore is said to be the forehead stone of a poison-breathing snake, and whoever holds it can be a powerful user of magic (actually, it has stats in nWoD! It's a 4-dot relic that lets you reroll any one die roll once per story, 3/story add a +1 equipment bonus to any roll, and shoot Aggravated damage firebolts for 1 Willpower each with Occult + Dexterity die rolls!), even.

Also, a hoard is a store of money or valued objects, typically one that is secret or carefully guarded. A horde is what orcs get up to if you don't go out and purge them every so often.

...I think I'm hard on Dragon because it has the potential to be so much win.

[TheCountAlucard]

Greek legend says the Spartans were descended from dragon's teeth, grown into warriors by planting them in the ground.

Actually, that was the people of Thebes.

The More You Know...

[Pokonic]

Mokolé are real big honking dragons. With fire breathing. And the ability to devolve you into a fish.

The Mokolé are also dinosaurs. And crocodiles. And sea serpents. And everything in between.Realy, anything that is not a snake or turtle.

And its morality track needs to be looked at. Right now, the only way to get more moral is to be a self-righteous jerk. Which kinda defeats the purpose of a morality chart.

Cant argue there.

Wait, all most of your enemies want to do is track you down and kill you for parts. How's that make a Changeling's life seem well-adjusted?

That was a bit much. A Changelings life starts from the moment a Godlike fey snaches them from the world into a alien plain of existace, forced to work for or amuse your kidnapper, and somehow excape. Your life has been replaced by something that looks like you but is off in a way.

Your main objective is to find ways to cope with your life as a person changed with no life to go back to.

Dragons start out after one eats a dragons heart, given willingly as a form of suicide or stolen or forceably taken. Then,after copeing with your newfound dragonhood, you soon realise that there are orginised groups after your heart and brain for varius matters.Then you soon relize how few of you are left, and that there are members of your kind that kill other dragons to gain personal power. Not only that, but your kind are often hunted or outright hunted by the few other supernaturals who are aware of your kinds existance, from vampires who hunt or bargen for your blood too the mages want for that gem in your skull. However, your main method of coping with all these threats is to remove your heart, but that could leave it open to theives and Hunters. Also, your most likly not going to meet another dragon besides the one whose heart you ate until centurys of searching.

Your main goal is to not let your heart get eaten, not get spotted by hunter groups or cannablistic Dragons, find ways to interact peacefuly with other supernaturals, not ding your moral chart to the point you start to grow more heads, and not become a complete monster along the way. Still injoying the immortality?

[TheCountAlucard]

Not only that, but your kind are often hunted or outright hunted by the few other supernaturals...

...

[CN the Logos]

Gotta say, Embers didn't really click with me. The ideas contained therein have some potential, but I think a way better job could have been done of mining actual mythology and folklore for ideas, and the editing job seems to have been... subpar. This is a tremendous shame, as the "final boss" of the Geist chronicle I'm currently running is probably going to be a dragon and I'd really like some good mechanics for it.

Of course, maybe I'm just biased as one of my eventual plans, once I have the system mastery, is to create a nephilim game, and one of my planned X splats is based partially on European dragon myths. So I guess I'm just hoping that if someone beats me to the punch, they do an awesome job of it.

Also, being a dragon in Embers is not nearly as horrifying as being a changeling in Changeling, but I don't consider that a bad thing. I find that tragedy loses its punch if there's absolutely no hope of victory for the tragic hero, and from what I've heard, Changeling's True Fae are unstoppable gods. I'm not sure exactly what they have to do with actual fairies other than the whole "kidnapping people" thing, and their required solipsistic/sociopathic worldview makes them really boring as antagonists, but no one can deny that being kidnapped and then raped/made to eat other sapient beings/vivisected for the lulz for a decade or so is pretty horrific.

Prometheans have it worse in actual gameplay, but they're on the way up. Things can't get worse for them, and they know (or at least have strong reason to believe) that things can get better. Even vampires have Golconda (which believe it or not has a precedent in actual folklore) if they want to pursue that path. Changelings, on the other hand, have the exciting options of keeping their heads down and trying not to attract the attention of their omnipotent former captors, or being dragged back to said captors' basements for more metaphorical (or literal) rapetime. I can see how it might make for some interesting explorations of the nature of victimhood, coping, dealing with grief and rage and so on. I just can't imagine an RPG where I as the protagonist am totally impotent to be much fun. I'm more than happy to mine it for ideas I like, of course.

As always, your mileage may vary. This post bought to you by Concerned Citizens for the Use of Proper Spelling and Grammar in Forum Posts, because a person's arguments are always more persuasive when I can read them without getting a headache.

[Talyn]

I'm busy studying for the bar exam right now, but once that's over, I'm going to start plotting out a Hunter: the Vigil game in earnest for the next time in my RPG group's rotation when its my turn to GM.

It will be a Task Force: Valkyrie (secret government monster catchers with high-tech weapons, for those unfamiliar with Hunter) game set in Seattle - but not the Genius Seattle, because I'm not using the fan-made gamelines.

[Pokonic]

Not only that, but your kind are often hunted or outright hunted by the few other supernaturals...

Arg, this is what happens when I post near one o-clock.

Gotta say, Embers didn't really click with me. The ideas contained therein have some potential, but I think a way better job could have been done of mining actual mythology and folklore for ideas, and the editing job seems to have been... subpar. This is a tremendous shame, as the "final boss" of the Geist chronicle I'm currently running is probably going to be a dragon and I'd really like some good mechanics for it.

I have to agree with you there, there could be more influences from myths and folklore added to the game.

As always, your mileage may vary. This post bought to you by Concerned Citizens for the Use of Proper Spelling and Grammar in Forum Posts, because a person's arguments are always more persuasive when I can read them without getting a headache.

...That hurt.

[Selrahc]

I find that tragedy loses its punch if there's absolutely no hope of victory for the tragic hero, and from what I've heard, Changeling's True Fae are unstoppable gods.

The Fae on earth aren't gods. A powerful enough Motley can stand against the wrath of the Fae, and protect an entire Freehold from it, killing the aspects of the Keepers that are foolish enough to fight them.

The most powerful of the Changelings can even be expected to lead raids against Arcadia itself. Rescuing as many as possible from the clutches of the Keepers or stealing their treasures. Perhaps they can even upset the schemes of their captor, leading other Fae to take them apart.

You can't overturn the whole of Faerie, any more than the Mages can lead a quest through the Abyss to the Supernal world and expel the dark oracles. But you can do some good. You can beat a few villains. That's as much hope as there is in the World of Darkness.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

So, I've got a question: has anyone adapted the rules of nWoD to the fluff of oWoD? Specifically, has anyone done so for Vampire? Also, has anyone written a primer on transferring from oWoD to nWoD?

[TheCountAlucard]

So, I've got a question: has anyone adapted the rules of nWoD to the fluff of oWoD? Specifically, has anyone done so for Vampire? Also, has anyone written a primer on transferring from oWoD to nWoD?

Yes for all three in the case of V:tM. Y'know who did it? White Wolf.