Word of Recall

[The Giant]

Thinking about it more, I would also suggest that being a cleric of Death and Destruction would have played a part in where Malack drew the line at preparedness. I feel like at a certain point, Malack would have said to himself, "If I take all of these many and varied precautions and am still destroyed, then it is Nergal's unholy will."

Of course, he felt somewhat differently when he was actually being destroyed.

[Defiant]

{SCRUBBED}

[BenjCano]

Or to put it still another way, your argument about "undead psychology" is incorrect, though for some reason you seem to keep changing the subject from it whenever it's challenged.

How exactly? The bad guys in the Dresden novel I referenced scattered when they were unexpectedly charged, Xykon was arrogant and sneering until Soon revealed that he knew his weakness, and immediately moved to flee. The only time in the comic's history that he's done so, despite tangling with Durokon, the silver dragon, and Darth V.

[Ghosty]

I was on the side of wondering why Malack didn't use WoR. It's totally out of character for him not to have it and I find puzzling the comments from posters who claim that his preparing it makes him some sort of Batman. You're telling me that Tarquin is going to rely on a wizard, who works for his treacherous son, to pull his chestnuts out of the fire if the group encounters any of the creatures that BenjCano was talking about?

Nope. He's going to have some independent way of ensuring he gets out. WoR fits into that. Even if Malack didn't memorize it, it's out of character for him to have a scroll of it, or a ring? He's the high priest of an entire kingdom for crying out loud.

Alternately, suppose that despite the above, he doesn't have WoR. He spontaneously converted it to a Harm, whatever. So he's down to his final casting of Protection from Daylight, for him and his thrall. In the middle of a desert where, if it fails, he dies/dies horribly in 12 seconds. Oh, and he's next to two spellcasters who could Dispel this protection at any time. He's not going to have a death grip on the only lifeline he and his kid have, his staff? Additionally, Nale has a shot at grabbing this lifeline from someone who we've already established can pin and drain a melee-heavy-build cleric, someone with a +8 to Strength? It doesn't make sense.

I just hand-wave it by saying that Z cast Dimensional Anchor in the round after the GDM. The GDM hits Malack in the surprise round after his staff gets yoink!-ed. Z flies away from the melee threat. Malack starts to toast, and is too surprised/ in pain to do anything. In Round 1, Z wins initiative, zaps Malack with the DA, and it plays out pretty much the same way. Problem solved. The tough part is getting the staff from Malack, but he has been shown previously in the strip to be rather casual about where he puts it.

I just think that the posters who pooh-pooh the idea of multiple backups and independent backup systems to those, aren't looking at the situation from Malack's perspective. Or the perspective of someone who's used to dealing with hazardous and immediately lethal environments. Redundancy is everything in that context.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

You're telling me that Tarquin is going to rely on a wizard, who works for his treacherous son, to pull his chestnuts out of the fire if the group encounters any of the creatures that BenjCano was talking about?

Nope, we are telling you that Tarquin would depend in one of his large collection of magic objects to pull out, not in the 12th-level cleric that would loose any use if he were forced to account for every contingency.

Yes, Malack is the empire's High Priest, but he is not a powerful cleric. He is powerful because he is a vampire, but with that advantage comes the disadvantage of being a weaker cleric than Durkon, and probably the weakest caster in Nale's group - definitely the weakest caster in Tarquin's team, and thus the last person the group would rely on to get them out of trouble.

Grey Wolf

[Amphiox]

One thing about crazy-prepared that people should remember:

All things being equal, crazy-prepared offence trumps crazy-prepared defence so long as offence gets surprise initiative, which was the case here.

(And this is true both in fiction and demonstrated multiple times in real world history too)

It doesn't matter what sorts of defences and contingencies you might have prepared, if the person who's attacking you already knows what they are before he attacks, then you are hosed.

Malack was going down in this fight because Nale and Z had prepared for this extensively beforehand, likely rehearsed it multiple times, and Nale knew in advance all of Malack's defences. Whether it is Word of Recall or any other defence, if Malack had tried it, Z/Nale would have neutralized it.

So what would you prefer? The comic as is, or one stretched out several more pages with 5 or 6 panels of Malack trying a spell and Z/Nale counterspelling or fizzing it, or whatever, sucking out all the dramatic tension in an interminable sequence of throwaway repetitive gags?

[Kish]

How exactly? The bad guys in the Dresden novel I referenced scattered when they were unexpectedly charged, Xykon was arrogant and sneering until Soon revealed that he knew his weakness, and immediately moved to flee. The only time in the comic's history that he's done so, despite tangling with Durokon, the silver dragon, and Darth V.

I've explained how exactly multiple times. I see little point in my continuing to try to rephrase it; somehow, in your view, it supports your claim of undead prudence when Xykon acts blase about his possible destruction and when he acts concerned about it.

The fact that Xykon has only seemed concerned about possible destruction once is hardly a case for his prudence. The alternatives are not "be incredibly prudent" or "don't show any concern that you might be destroyed, not even once." And "being precisely prudent enough to be impossible to destroy" is not on the table for anyone.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Thinking about it more, I would also suggest that being a cleric of Death and Destruction would have played a part in where Malack drew the line at preparedness. I feel like at a certain point, Malack would have said to himself, "If I take all of these many and varied precautions and am still destroyed, then it is Nergal's unholy will."

Of course, he felt somewhat differently when he was actually being destroyed.

Heheh. Rich (or Giant, whichever you prefer), that is exactly what I was saying on the discussion thread last night before going to bed.

[Fish]

And "being precisely prudent enough to be impossible to destroy" is not on the table for anyone.

Hear, hear. Also, "only perfectly optimized moves can be considered 'in-character' are off the table too.

[crayzz]

The bad guys in the Dresden novel I referenced scattered when they were unexpectedly charged, Xykon was arrogant and sneering until Soon revealed that he knew his weakness, and immediately moved to flee.

The bad guys scattered immediately; Xykon waited until the last second. Xykon only showed hints of prudence.

[Ghosty]

...So what would you prefer? The comic as is, or one stretched out several more pages with 5 or 6 panels of Malack trying a spell and Z/Nale counterspelling or fizzing it, or whatever, sucking out all the dramatic tension in an interminable sequence of throwaway repetitive gags?

I disagree. The fight between Tsukiko and RC went about the way you describe this, and I don't think it lacked any dramatic tension at all. And it short-circuited a lot of the, "Why is this character acting like an idiot all of a sudden?" second-guessing. (It helped that Tsukiko, despite the high INT and WIS needed for her PrC, kinda' was an idiot.) Also any plan that starts with, "First thing we'll do, is rip away the primary magic item from the grasp of the guy with +8 to Strength...," doesn't sound like a plan with a high chance of success.

Grey Wolf, I agree that WoR would be overkill if Malack was with Tarquin and their full party. In that case, yeah, save the spell-slots for healing, because you've got at least one or two others who look like they can Teleport everyone out. But at the start of Girard's Pyramid, it's just the two of them. (Kilkil hasn't been shown to be effective at anything more strenuous than double-entry bookkeeping.) That are reliably on his side, anyway. Unless Tarq has a Helm of Teleportation (which seems like his style, to be true) he's not getting out if he's in the sights of the proposed Copper Dragon family.

Heh, that could be it: if they seriously miscalculate, have Malack run to Tarquin and have him hit the Eject! button. The point is, I can't believe that Tarquin and Malack would have lasted as adventurers all this time, without having some ace in the hole to get them both out if they find themselves neck deep in it. Again, I just think that Z tagged Malack with an in-between panel Dimensional Anchor, and that takes care of most of the nitpicks.

Aside, the idea of being able to counter-spell an instantaneous effect spell, triggered by a single word, is remarkably silly, no matter what RAW says. By the time you know what to counter-spell, the word's uttered and the object of the counter is gone. I know the rules may allow it, but the idea sounds ridiculous. As is the idea that a vampire is allowed to whack an enemy over the head in the round they're immolating, but somehow doesn't have the ability to cast said single word spell.

[S.Carrot]

{SCRUBBED}

See what I meant? You can't even go as far as mention it, and you'd think it'd be in everyone's best interest to know what goes against the policy and what doesn't.

Voice of Mod: We don't allow one poster to tell another poster that they're not following the rules, no. That's what moderators are for. And if people want to know our policies, they should read the Rules of Posting. Now let's drop this tangent.

[Grey Watcher]

You know, the counter-argument to this sort of critique is usually that Order of the Stick is not a high-op setting, and while that is entirely valid and should be respected, I almost wonder if Malack's failure to prepare for this wildly improbable contingency is in part because we've been spoiled by characters who are crazy-prepared (and I do mean crazy). Whether it's Tarquin pulling exotic combat moves seemingly out of nowhere or Vaarsuvius apparently having spell slots to waste on Bixby's Cat-Retrieving Hand or Bugsby's Expressive Single Digit, I wonder if maybe our expectations of the difference between reasonable precautions (which two castings, plus a staff with Protection from Daylight certainly counts as) vs. absurd over-preparedness (such as having Word of Recall ready just in case you are somehow, simultaneously deprived of both castings of Protection from Daylight, your staff, shelter, and any allies able to help) has been somewhat skewed.

Anyway, I just think it's worth stepping back and realizing that Redcloak, Tarquin, Vaarsuvius and others are the exceptions precisely because they manage to prepare for things that would take others by surprise.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Grey Wolf, I agree that WoR would be overkill if Malack was with Tarquin and their full party. In that case, yeah, save the spell-slots for healing, because you've got at least one or two others who look like they can Teleport everyone out. But at the start of Girard's Pyramid, it's just the two of them. (Kilkil hasn't been shown to be effective at anything more strenuous than double-entry bookkeeping.) That are reliably on his side, anyway. Unless Tarq has a Helm of Teleportation (which seems like his style, to be true) he's not getting out if he's in the sights of the proposed Copper Dragon family.

That is where I believe complacency walks into the picture. If Tarquin is the one usually prepared for anything (which he likely is), Malack would be used to Tarquin saving their bacon, not him. Malack did not prepare spells that morning under the assumption that Tarquin would bail out on him, since he is probably too used to Tarquin always being the Man with the Plan. Malack's role in Tarquin's team is being a voice of (Evil) reason, and a surprise element by no-one expecting the Spanish Inquisition vampire cleric, plus light spell support.

Grey Wolf

[Sir_Leorik]

Anyway, I just think it's worth stepping back and realizing that Redcloak, Tarquin, Vaarsuvius and others are the exceptions precisely because they manage to prepare for things that would take others by surprise.

This was explicitly lampshaded in SoD, when Redcloak didn't prepare flamestrike during the Goblin attack against Lirian's Glade, because he assumed that Lirian would be as crazy-prepared as Leeky Windstaff. Needless to say, he completely miscalculated how Lirian was planning to protect her Gate.

Spoiler

Show

She used the Guardian Virus, to prevent spellcasting, rather than cast protection from fire on all the Treants.

Then when he makes his second attempt to seize the Gate, Redcloak uses flamestrike... and sets the forest on fire, destroying the Gate. Being "crazy prepared" didn't exactly help Redcloak. Likewise, using word of recall to escape O-Chul came back to bite Redcloak, after Xykon got a bit displeased with Redcloak's cowardice.

[BenjCano]

The bad guys scattered immediately; Xykon waited until the last second. Xykon only showed hints of prudence.

Check again. He was battling and bantering merrily, telling Soon that he couldn't be destroyed, and then Soon says, "Yeah, then I just get someone to smash the holy symbol." Xykon pauses for exactly one surprised beat panel, then immediately flees.

"Redcloak, stop waving [the holy symbol] around and get the hell out of here. GO GO GO!"

[Doctor Awkward]

In regards to Malack's spell level:

Being a Lizardfolk carries the stiff penalty of two racial hit dice, and a +1 level adjustment when used as a player character (but let's assume he's an NPC). The vampire template adds another insane level adjustment of +8.
Assuming that Malack isn't epic, that leaves only 10 levels of cleric, meaning the highest spell level he has access to is 5.

However, since he's seen casting Harm, and the only way to get Harm as a spell lower than 6th is to use a scroll made by a Blighter (which is an ex-druid prestige class), he is clearly an epic character, and thus any speculation about his available spell resources would require a ridiculous amount of assumptions.

In regards to his tactics and strategies:

Malack is a supremely confident, 200-year-old, undead monstrosity. He has no respect for Nale at all as a leader, strategist, or opponent in general. This is the same Nale he almost killed outright in a single round of combat less than a hundred strips ago. The same Nale that begged his father to save him from Malack by telling them about the gates.
Nale gave Malack zero reasons to think he was any threat to him at all, and in that sense, his scheme was well-played.
There are dozens of good reason for him to not have prepared Word of Recall, and none of them are at all out of character.

In regards to Malack's level of optimization:

Really? Come on now. He is a Lizardfolk... Vampire....
He has a race that gets a +2 bonus to Constitution... and a template that gives him a Constitution score of –.
He has a race that gives him a +4 bonus on jump and swim checks... and a template that gives him Spider Climb and destroys him if he is immersed in running water for three or more rounds.
He has a race that gives him a bonus to avoid suffocation... and a template that removes his requirement to breath.
And finally he picked a primary spellcasting class and stacked it on top of an eight or nine level offset and two racial hit dice.

...Anything else about his optimization competence you'd like to discuss?

[Iago]

Thinking about it more, I would also suggest that being a cleric of Death and Destruction would have played a part in where Malack drew the line at preparedness. I feel like at a certain point, Malack would have said to himself, "If I take all of these many and varied precautions and am still destroyed, then it is Nergal's unholy will."

Of course, he felt somewhat differently when he was actually being destroyed.

On preparedness, I've argued he should have had Word of Recall memorized -- all clerics with 6th level spells do it where I come from -- but let me note:
Plan A: the 1st protection from Daylight (base line of defense, dispelled);
Plan B: I'm inside a pyramid, which provides cover (krackoom);
Plan C: the 2nd preparation of Prot-Daylight (spent on Durkula thinking he wouldn't need it because of Plans A and B)
Plan D: his staff (disarmed)

Should he have burned a charge from the staff to protect Durkon instead of using his backup spell? In hindsight, yeah, but the idea that the building was just going to up and vanish probably didn't enter Malack's mind. But let us further assume that he had not only done that, but had in fact handcuffed his staff to his wrist, and memorized Word of Recall, and had a contingency-teleport cast on him to return him to his safe haven if he started to take sunlight damage (Call these Plans E, F, and G).

The Giant could have fulfilled the plot and wiped Malack out by simply having Zz'dtri pop an Anti-Magic Field instead of Greater Dispel (which are both 6th level spells), and then having Nale tackle him him for a round. No cheese, same result, the end.

[Giggling Ghast]

He's a high-level vampire cleric who can go to gaseous form and regenerate like crazy. And he had several back-ups of the spell needed to guard against his one major weakness. Word of Recall seems kind of redundant, especially when you could burn those sixth-level spells on creating a small army of mummies.

[Ghosty]

That is where I believe complacency walks into the picture. If Tarquin is the one usually prepared for anything (which he likely is), Malack would be used to Tarquin saving their bacon, not him. Malack did not prepare spells that morning under the assumption that Tarquin would bail out on him, since he is probably too used to Tarquin always being the Man with the Plan. Malack's role in Tarquin's team is being a voice of (Evil) reason, and a surprise element by no-one expecting the Spanish Inquisition vampire cleric, plus light spell support...

That I can buy. Perfectly in character to not expect Tarquin to go take a powder, so he wouldn't have selected his spells towards potentially having to go it alone. Or to be able to extricate them from a really bad situation, if Tarquin's the one with the get out of jail card.

Also in character to think that Nale is no threat at all, despite Nale having killed Malack's kids, and that Malack won't therefore have to worry about dealing with Nale until Tarquin gets back. Probably also allowed himself the luxury of fantasizing about how exactly his revenge was going to be carried out. Perhaps (un)-living all of these years, and moving around normally in the daytime, also made Malack contemptuous of the risk and danger that sunlight had for his type?

Edit: I'd like the A-M Field idea, but Malack would have drop-kicked Nale into next week if Nale tried to grapple. Gotta think a 14th level or so cleric with an emphasis on melee is going to be a tougher wrestling opponent than whatever slumgullion of classes Nale is.

[Math_Mage]

Edit: I'd like the A-M Field idea, but Malack would have drop-kicked Nale into next week if Nale tried to grapple. Gotta think a 14th level or so cleric with an emphasis on melee is going to be a tougher wrestling opponent than whatever slumgullion of classes Nale is.

...Until the sun burned him away?

[Snails]

Just because WoR can be countered or negated through Dimensional Anchoring doesn't mean it's not a spell I wouldn't devote a spell slot to every day.

You might. If you were playing a 12th level cleric in a 12th level party, that might be a reasonable enough precaution. However Malack is a 12th level caster in a 15thish level party. He has precious few slots of 5th level or higher, in order to earn his share of the party treasure and XP. While being a vampire has its advantages, it forces Malack to prepare both a Harm (for himself) and a Heal (for friends). He also has Quickened Inflict Moderate to use against Nale. He does not have much left to go on.

[KillItWithFire]

Edit: I'd like the A-M Field idea, but Malack would have drop-kicked Nale into next week if Nale tried to grapple. Gotta think a 14th level or so cleric with an emphasis on melee is going to be a tougher wrestling opponent than whatever slumgullion of classes Nale is.

Malack never struck me as the type to be a very scary opponent in melee, the person who would be however is Durkon, another little line of protection there. Expending a casting of Daylight Protection is easier to justify if it nets you a reasonably powerful thrall to help you out if things get hairy. Too bad said thrall was off grabbing a staff at the time.

[Ghosty]

Malack never struck me as the type to be a very scary opponent in melee, the person who would be however is Durkon, another little line of protection there. Expending a casting of Daylight Protection is easier to justify if it nets you a reasonably powerful thrall to help you out if things get hairy. Too bad said thrall was off grabbing a staff at the time.

He was scary enough to hold Durkon down and drain him. No reason to think he couldn't have beaten Nale about the head and shoulders with his own goatee, if Nale were to try and tackle Malack.

As far as the A-M field, Z'd have to cast it on himself. The effect is centered on the caster, if I'm reading the SRD correctly. (He might want to be a little closer to the ground though when he does it...) Does Nale have enough Sorcerer levels to cast A-M Field?

Then go and try to get near enough to Malack to affect him, but not so close that Malack rips his head off. A toughie. Of course, Malack can switch forms to Dire Bat if he sees Z coming and recognizes the AM Field, and fly away. Probably faster than Z can move, especially since Z can't fly in the Field. And preferably to his powerful javelin née staff.

Better tacticians than myself (which isn't difficult to be in the slightest) can probably come up with better ideas. Neat fight though, and I'm glad the [expletive deleted] is dead. Even if I didn't get to hear Xykon react with horror and admiration upon learning of Malack's long-term goals...

[Psyren]

Edit: I'd like the A-M Field idea, but Malack would have drop-kicked Nale into next week if Nale tried to grapple. Gotta think a 14th level or so cleric with an emphasis on melee is going to be a tougher wrestling opponent than whatever slumgullion of classes Nale is.

Malack never struck me as being that strong. He grappled Durkon pretty effectively, but that was after buffing up with Divine Power - before then he seemed pretty frail.

[Kish]

Indeed. Strength is most likely to have been Malack's dump stat, while Nale's is certainly Wisdom. With Malack's +8 bonus, Malack was likely still a little stronger than Nale...but only a little.

[Blas_de_Lezo]

What if Protection from Daylight would be a 6th level spell? It's a pretty powerfull spell. Problem solved.

[Vaylon]

I just hand-wave it by saying that Z cast Dimensional Anchor in the round after the GDM. The GDM hits Malack in the surprise round after his staff gets yoink!-ed. Z flies away from the melee threat. Malack starts to toast, and is too surprised/ in pain to do anything. In Round 1, Z wins initiative, zaps Malack with the DA, and it plays out pretty much the same way. Problem solved.

The Giant could have fulfilled the plot and wiped Malack out by simply having Zz'dtri pop an Anti-Magic Field instead of Greater Dispel (which are both 6th level spells), and then having Nale tackle him him for a round. No cheese, same result, the end.

Both of these are more plausible than what actually happened.

[crayzz]

He was battling and bantering merrily, telling Soon that he couldn't be destroyed, and then Soon says, "Yeah, then I just get someone to smash the holy symbol." Xykon pauses for exactly one surprised beat panel, then immediately flees.

EXACTLY. Rather than running to regroup and attack on his own terms at the first sign of danger, he sticks it out and fights without really knowing what's going on. He doesn't even know what his opponents are, other than the fact that they're hard to kill and that they hurt when the hit. He still sticks it out.

Xykon only became cautious when someone leveled the worst threat they could. That's not very cautious.

[Cifer]

There most certainly is. And even if there isn't and you define it as "a standard action" - the "attack" is still there, so it would have to be a standard used offensively in some way. Again, this is speaking purely from RAW.

Word of Recall has one purpose and one purpose only - to retreat. Thus it cannot be an attack.

RAW, the exact phrase "attack action" has no meaning - unless you can point me towards a section in the rules where such a thing is explained. That's the funny thing: If it's not written somewhere, it's not RAW.
As for the rest: I'd say that what the writer had in mind here was to seperate the turn of a creature into its two halves and say "you can only use one of those halves". He then misspelled and wrote "attack" rather than "standard" action. What would be the point in having the vampire both possibly possessing the survival instinct to flee (move action) and the presence of mind to still cast spells (Slay Living as an "attack action"), but not combine the two by casting to flee?

He was scary enough to hold Durkon down and drain him. No reason to think he couldn't have beaten Nale about the head and shoulders with his own goatee, if Nale were to try and tackle Malack.

As far as the A-M field, Z'd have to cast it on himself. The effect is centered on the caster, if I'm reading the SRD correctly. (He might want to be a little closer to the ground though when he does it...) Does Nale have enough Sorcerer levels to cast A-M Field?

Then go and try to get near enough to Malack to affect him, but not so close that Malack rips his head off. A toughie. Of course, Malack can switch forms to Dire Bat if he sees Z coming and recognizes the AM Field, and fly away. Probably faster than Z can move, especially since Z can't fly in the Field. And preferably to his powerful javelin née staff.

You're ignoring that Malack doesn't have much time. If Nale can establish the grapple (by a lucky roll of the dice), that's at least one action that Malack can't use to save his own frying bacon because he needs to get out first. Beating Nale about the head? Who cares? An unarmed attack of his inflicts 1d6+Str points of damage, so likely somewhere in the range of 10 points. Compared to the damage rolls that are usually handed around in those levels, that's chump change.

So let's see how it might have gone down:
Nale: Disarm the Staff as a Standard Action (not quite unlikely as it's resolved by comparing attack rolls rather than pure strength), throw it as a Move Action
Zz'dtri: Cast Greater Dispel Magic as a Standard Action, move into the air as a Move Action
Malack (only half a turn in the sun): Command Durkula as a Free Action, move away seeking shelter as a Move Action - oops, Nale trips him as an AoO
Nale: Initiates a Grapple
Malack (only half a turn in the sun): casts Slay Living as a Standard Action (which he technically wouldn't be able to do in a grapple, but who cares?)
Nale: Attack the lizgreaper's cloak
Malack: burns to a heap of ash as a Full Round Action





(That being said: I would have found it fully plausible if Malack had prepared and popped WoR. It's just that I can also imagine a scenario as detailed by the Giant in this story where he didn't without defying believability)