Help with a Ping Pong Paladin Idea [3.PF]

[subject42]

I range far and wide across the Hinterlands in pursuit of scum and villainy. To safeguard my faith in such unholy realms, the Pontifex has granted me this seal of his indulgence. He preemptively grants his atonement for any misdeed I may unwittingly commit.

Knowing this fact, does holding that child in front of you as a shield seem to be the wisest defense against my wrath?

YOU STABBED A BABY!

And I apologized.

BUT YOU STABBED A BABY!

And I was forgiven. Let us continue on in our good work.

AH! AH! AHHH!

One of the problems with Paladins in 3.5/PF is that they can fall. That said, in PF at least, you only need to have someone cast Atonement on you and pay 2,500 gold pieces to be back in the saddle and ready to smite. Specific DMs might have other rules, but that's the only mechanical bit that I can find

Based on that, it should be theoretically possible to create an item that automatically casts Atonement on a Paladin as an immediate action when they fall, or at least one round later.

If I'm reading the rules right, you should be able to create a slotless magic item that does this for 662,000 gp.

Is this within the rules?

If it is within the rules, is there a way to get the cost down to the point where this is a viable tactic, rather than a thought experiment?

[erikun]

I believe that Atonement only works with "unwittingly committing" an evil act. Strapping a baby onto your arm and blocking sword strikes with him/her would not be unwittingly in any sense of the word.

I suppose it might work for a Cleric or Druid who wants to repeatedly violate their oaths, although at a 500 XP cost each time. Please note that doing so involves "interceding with your deity" and as such, your deity may decide that strapping babies to your arm and crafting an item to cast Atonement on yourself is not worth redeeming the caster. It still won't work on Paladins, though, because Paladins cannot get their powers back, even with Atonement, when they intentionally perform an evil deed.

[Caphi]

Actually, the story involves the enemy holding a baby as a shield. The atonement is for "accidentally" harming it in the pursuit of justice.

Isn't this what the Grey Guard class is for?

[subject42]

I believe that Atonement only works with "unwittingly committing" an evil act.

<snip>

It still won't work on Paladins, though, because Paladins cannot get their powers back, even with Atonement, when they intentionally perform an evil deed.

Actually, Pathfinder changed both of those things. Apparently outside of DM disagreement all you need to do to "intercede" is spend money. There isn't even an XP cost anymore.

Additionally, the PF Paladin can atone as per any other divine caster.

However, in the case of a creature atoning for deliberate misdeeds, you must intercede with your deity (requiring you to expend 2,500 gp in rare incense and offerings).

[Ashram]

Yeah, it's to make things easier for the player, so that the DM can't make you perma-fall when he's having a bad day. Granted, if you deliberately screw up, then it's your own fault.

I'm almost positive you can't cast Atonement on yourself, though. Even if you can, making an item that does it for you is in very bad taste and if you plan to fall as a paladin, then you aren't doing your job right. Typically Atonement is cast on you by a high priest of your faith or someone in a position to redeem you; a paladin usually would go to a temple of Heironeous (For 3.5) or Iomedae (For PF).

[subject42]

I'm almost positive you can't cast Atonement on yourself, though. Even if you can, making an item that does it for you is in very bad taste and if you plan to fall as a paladin, then you aren't doing your job right.

Not doing your job right is kind of what I'm going for here. I have a long running WTF contest with another player/DM and I'd like to have this on the stack of potential ideas.

The spell description for Atonement is "living creature touched", so as long as the Paladin isn't also a zombie, it should theoretically work, right?

Is there anything in the RAW that would prevent it, besides cost?

[Popertop]

What kind of contest and how far is this going to go?

If you are the DM then you can do whatever you want,
but it seems like intentionally falling would require some
serious intercession and penalties. At least, that's how
I would go. I have a lot of love for the Paladin, and don't
think his code should be mistreated.

[Kurald Galain]

I'm reasonably sure that using a loophole to weasel your way out of the paladin code is by itself a violation of the paladin code

[subject42]

What kind of contest and how far is this going to go?

I and the other guy switch off between two campaigns for our groups, but we also tend to run a fair number of one-shots to keep things from getting too serious.

Generally when we do the one-shots whoever isn't DMing will make a ridiculous (not necessarily overpowered, but ridiculous) character that makes the other one pore over the sheet, double check a few source books, re-read some rules, and end up saying "yeah, it's legal, but I don't know why you even thought of that, much less statted it up."

It's all in good fun.

[SurlySeraph]

You can use Gray Guard (no xp cost to atone) and/or Shadowbane Inquisitor (doesn't lose all their powers if they fall). Much cheaper.

[Eldonauran]

I'm reasonably sure that using a loophole to weasel your way out of the paladin code is by itself a violation of the paladin code

As a DM, I would agree. Its just as bad as saying "The baby is meaningless, I will be forgiven. My actions are justified regardless of the cost, which is nothing after all." Stabitty-stab-stab-stab-STAB!

No... just no.

Good does not work that way. To overcome evil, good often has to make personal sacrifices. It would be time to kick you into the darker part of the alignment pool.

[Crossblade]

Ya, if I was a DM in this situation, I'd simply tell the player that their Deity doesn't accept the atonement. You're not allowed to make your own Get Out of Jail Free cards.

[Popertop]

I and the other guy switch off between two campaigns for our groups, but we also tend to run a fair number of one-shots to keep things from getting too serious.

Generally when we do the one-shots whoever isn't DMing will make an ridiculous (not necessarily overpowered, but ridiculous) character that makes the other one pore over the sheet, double check a few source books, re-read some rules, and end up saying "yeah, it's legal, but I don't know why you even thought of that, much less statted it up."

It's all in good fun.

:O

And your idea is a paladin that repeatedly falls?

...

*epic frown*

Congratulations sir, only a proud, great and terrible few have managed to produce an epic frown from me.

[subject42]

Congratulations sir, only a proud, great and terrible few have managed to produce an epic frown from me.

Mission accomplished. May I sig that?

[Popertop]

you can has sig