Erfworld 62 - Page 56

[Psychosomatic]

But dwagons with strength depending on colour would mean that a pink dwagon goes to sleep after a battle and awakes as a green one. And instead of breathing those bubbles he now has to boop these boop bolts...

Not necessarily. Red dwagons could be just be outright stronger than yellow ones and so on; they could even cost more to produce or have a higher upkeep.

[tomaO2]

Hurray for 300 replies!

This is the first Erfworld. thread to ever break the 300 mark. None of the other threads come close. Time to break out the champagne and celebrate.

The lesson here? In order to really get a bunch of interest and discussion, you gotta have more strategy and less, um, non... erm, strategy... stuff.

Like plot and character development.

Yea...
So you guys get on that.

[Monan]

Yeah this thread has gone strong!!!!! Proof will be in the pudding when the next comic comes out...or maybe in a couple after the next. :)

[Ganurath]

Hurray for 300 replies!

This is the first Erfworld. thread to ever break the 300 mark. None of the other threads come close. Time to break out the champagne and celebrate.

The lesson here? In order to really get a bunch of interest and discussion, you gotta have more strategy and less, um, non... erm, strategy... stuff.

Like plot and character development.

Yea...
So you guys get on that.

That's not what's important. Giving people something to discuss, that's how you get the numbers. Stimulus, response. Comic gives room for speculation, 300 replies accumulate. Parson establishes a circle of dwagons with a weak rear, Ansom circles around. A highly disruptive event causes a localized panic, and the program I run makes a dinging noise. Stimulus, response.

[TheTurnipKing]

I think I had an epiphany at work. Ansom doesn't know that those Dwagons are all fresh units, does he?

He's not planning on this being a suicide mission, he genuinely thinks that within a turn, he and his units are going to be able to polish off the whole donut.

[Waldgeist]

I think I had an epiphany at work. Ansom doesn't know that those Dwagons are all fresh units, does he?

He's not planning on this being a suicide mission, he genuinely thinks that within a turn, he and his units are going to be able to polish off the whole donut.

As I understand it he is going to enter the central hex from the rear, where the "donut" seems the weakest. He want's to make it to the center, because he expects the "A" dwagons, which attacked the column, to be sheltered there. Ansom sees the donut (just as Parson did, before he knew about Ansom's bad intelligence) as a mobile fortification and tries to "enter" it, to hit its heart.

I don't know whether he hopes that his units survive the counterattack by the "donut dwagons" or whether he knowingly sacrifices his units, because it seems to be a good (or at least necessary) "exchange"...

[Krelon]

I wonder how much this discussion influences the strips to come or whether Rob already has the next 10 strips in his drawer and just sits in front of his screen laughing diabolically...

I'm not sure what will happen next... If Ansom really goes in there (and leaves as soon as he recognizes a trap or whatever) that will break the alliance's moral...
If he doesn't go in there he will break it anyway because he'll be called a chicken for running away from the enemy...

No matter what the donut o' doom holds for him, it wont be nice. I wonder whether it's actually possible to build physical traps (like those jungle fighters use) or whether it's only possible to deploy units and make them "hide". Another question: Does Ansom know the territory the central hex is (from a map or so). What if it is some kind of a mud pool or swamp that slows his units down even further than the thick forest already does... That would quit immobilise his woodsies for a while and either stop the whole column to wait for them or leaves them seperated from the large group making both more vulnerable.

I mean, obviously this is not the position Parson would have chosen in the first place for his donut. It's to close to the column not to be found... So he wants it to be found... har har har... and then... we wait for Saturday...

Does Ansom know the territory the central hex is? Indeed, an excellent question!

I believe Ansom has never been there before, it is Stanley core territory. So what if in the middle there is a mountain? Parson could even put the wounded dwagons on top of that cause only flyers (and probably mountaineering units) can enter mountains but for sure not the forest capable units that went all the long way only to sit and watch.

[Waldgeist]

Does Ansom know the territory the central hex is? Indeed, an excellent question!

Of course, I asked it...

Another thing I just stumbled over:

Ansom mentions "as many as two dozen heavily wounded dwagons" which makes me feel like there were 5 attacks of 5 dwagons (=25, that's two dozen for an engineer ) + 3 warlords each. Ansom obviously doesn't notice that only the wounded dwagons were cycled out and overestimates the forces he is about to attack by one fourth. Still he is willing to attack them...

And about that mountain thing...

Earth Physics teach us that you would be able to see a mountain that covers the area of "one hex" from as far as... far.

Erfworld Physics teach us that the bats exploring the area have only a visual range on "0" (they can only see the hex they are in, so 0 hexes around them). Thus a mountain would be invisible to them until they get very close.

I wonder whether there are units with higher "visual range" (e.g. as special ability: "scout" or "keen eyes"). Hightend positions don't seem to help. Otherwise the bats could just have flown higher up to get a better look...

[xKiv]

Of course, I asked it...
And about that mountain thing...

Earth Physics teach us that you would be able to see a mountain that covers the area of "one hex" from as far as... far.

Not if you are between high trees that block your view ...
I mean, if you are 2 metres tall and there is a 10 meters tall tree 20 metres from you, it can block 500 metres tall mountain 1000 metres far.

Of course, I don't know how big the hexes are.
I kind of doubt that they are more than couple dozen metres on the inside, but they can be hundreds apart.
I don't think it's miles - that's good visibility on Earth (for a human, horizon is somewhere between 3 and 6 miles far), with nothing to obstruct your line of sight (like trees, hills, other units, uneven terrain [what if the road is lower than the rest?]).

And the road takes the whole hex (it isn't just a line through the hex - the whole hex's type seems to be road).

Also, in real world, there would be something interesting (even from military standpoint) for every few miles of road.

On the other hand, we have flying units with ~50 hexes of move ... per day ... I can *walk*, say 30 miles per day (once, on a very good day, on straight road, without much gear, if I am guaranteed freshening points, fine weather, ...).

Fast real-world fliers can do dozens of miles per *hour*.


Mmm, wrote too much again.
Anyway, it boils down to
1) how big a hex is
2) what's actually in the column hexes
3) how conspicious the mountain would be
( 20 metres of vertical rock would IMO pretty much stop all non-flying non-siege and still go unnoticed from a few miles away)

[TheTurnipKing]

As I understand it he is going to enter the central hex from the rear, where the "donut" seems the weakest. He want's to make it to the center, because he expects the "A" dwagons, which attacked the column, to be sheltered there. Ansom sees the donut (just as Parson did, before he knew about Ansom's bad intelligence) as a mobile fortification and tries to "enter" it, to hit its heart.

I don't know whether he hopes that his units survive the counterattack by the "donut dwagons" or whether he knowingly sacrifices his units, because it seems to be a good (or at least necessary) "exchange"...

Not that good - we know that without the Warlords, they're no longer capable of selective targetting, but those things are still wreckingly powerful and should be able to take out a goodly number of column stacks before they croak,

[SteveMB]

Not that good - we know that without the Warlords, they're no longer capable of selective targetting, but those things are still wreckingly powerful and should be able to take out a goodly number of column stacks before they croak,

And then Gobwin Knob is even worse off that they were to start with, having lost their "greatest remaining threat". They simply can't afford to trade casualties for casualties, unless the casualties they inflict are strategically worth at least twenty-five times as much as the casualties they take.

[Thayus]

I think he thinks that without warlords to relay commands, the Dwagons will have to just sit there until Stanley can relay new orders to them.

-Thayus

[shakes019]

I noticed on page 22 (linked by SteveMB) that Ansom states that the ArkenPliers turn most uncroaked to dust (emphasis mine).

I wonder if he'll find that uncroaked warlords are immune to that effect.

[SteveMB]

I noticed on page 22 (linked by SteveMB) that Ansom states that the ArkenPliers turn most uncroaked to dust (emphasis mine).

I wonder if he'll find that uncroaked warlords are immune to that effect.

Hmmm... good catch. Obviously he knows that some uncroaked are resistant to the Arkenpliers' effect, or he wouldn't have said "most"....

[Freederick]

Hmmm... good catch. Obviously he knows that some uncroaked are resistant to the Arkenpliers' effect, or he wouldn't have said "most"....

I suppose Vinny must be resistant, else he would be leery of rubbing shoulders with Ansom. Accidents have a way of happening when you wave unsheathed weapons about for emphasis.

[TheTurnipKing]

And then Gobwin Knob is even worse off that they were to start with, having lost their "greatest remaining threat". They simply can't afford to trade casualties for casualties, unless the casualties they inflict are strategically worth at least twenty-five times as much as the casualties they take.

Which is Parson's problem, not Ansoms.

If Parson DID lose the Warlords, he'd probably withdraw the Dwagons, but Ansom doesn't know that. Hell, he thinks the Tool is still in charge. He either needs to eliminate the dwagons he THINKS are there, or else he's going to have to prep for casualties next turn, even if they're not that strategically significant.
Either this offence is Ansoms defence, or else Ansom has overlooked the defence of his column this turn - and that could come back to hurt him big time, knowing what we do about Gobwin Knob's A & B Dwagons.

[Maelore]

Greetings,

I think there is more evidence of this being a trap. If you look at Page 48 panel 8 one can see two yellow, two pink and one black dwagon nestling into the woods. But in page 56 panels 3 and 6 none of the hexes with dwagons shown hold this combination of dwagons. And in fact there does not seem to be any black dwagons shown on Ansom's map. Either Vinnie misreported its color or some of those dwagons in those hexs are not B dwagons. I just happend to notice this while looking for dwagon panels to show someone how cute they are for monstrous engines of death and destruction

[Monan]

Greetings,

I think there is more evidence of this being a trap. If you look at Page 48 panel 8 one can see two yellow, two pink and one black dwagon nestling into the woods. But in page 56 panels 3 and 6 none of the hexes with dwagons shown hold this combination of dwagons. And in fact there does not seem to be any black dwagons shown on Ansom's map. Either Vinnie misreported its color or some of those dwagons in those hexs are not B dwagons. I just happend to notice this while looking for dwagon panels to show someone how cute they are for monstrous engines of death and destruction

Nice catch! I can't wait till Pg 57 comes out. this is good stuff.

[BurntOfferings]

Vinnie seems awfully confident about the colors of the dragons. Seems odd, since the bats appear to be colorblind.

I had an uncle who bought a pink car once because the dealer told him it was blue. He caught a lot of grief for that. Never trust car dealers!

Edit: Whoops, the color issue has been mentioned already in Phylactery's post. I searched the thread for "colorblind" and "color blind" but not "monochrome".

[Ozzymindous]

If he put 1 dwagon in the center square to make it look like he had a warlord(s) in the center stoping everything else from attacking then Ansom would attack presuming that it was full. Parson loses 4 dwagons. (3 from weak back square and 1 from anti scout trick) Anson loses all forest forces, some air, and the Pliers.


This may have been mentioned before but I dont have time to read through 11 pages of info.

Excuse my spelling its after 11 and i'm in high school.

[Boojum]

So what if in the middle there is a mountain?

When you see the dwagons flying away after the attack in the last panel of 50, there do appear to be hills rising out of the forest off in the distance that they're heading towards.

[kunou126]

Nice catch! I can't wait till Pg 57 comes out. this is good stuff.

Page 39:

Did you know? When flying units are over water, mountains, or heavy trees, they can only be attacked by other fliers?

Page 56:

Air Cover?

Not a lotta that can reach.

Only she and five top griffons, plus Charlies Archons have enough move to reach the center of that hex. I will hold her in reserve

Air units are not going to the battle.

Our forest units will attack.

Ground based.

Ansom's going to run his ground troops away from the collumn, exhaust their move, and they are not going to be able to touch the dwagons.

[Fuzzy_Juan]

yeah, anyone who watched enough B&W TV for long enough will tell you that after awhile you start to not notice that it is Black and white and you just see color. I watched a small black and white for a long time and I could tell all the different colors...in fact, i got so good at it, I sometimes forgot that it was black and white and barely noticed the difference (besides screen size) when watching the same shows on a color TV.

there have been some great guesses on the actual plans for that center hex...probably the best I heard was from someone (I wish I could give them credit) and it made alot of sense...

Spoiler

Show

If The bats cannot identify wounded dwagons (see current hit points), It is just as likely that the B and A Dwagons swapped locations for the most part. All the A dwagons that took part in the raid are in the forward hexes of the ring accompanied by 1 B dwagon that rises from the hex to take out scouts (and hopefully hide the status of the others)...the rear hex has 3 unwounded B dwagons because the enemy suspects that rear hex has 3 unwounded dwagons...and the center hex is home to 19 dwagons like the enemy suspects...19 unwounded B dwagons possibly led by the 3 warlords...possibly not...Since Ansom doesn't have many forces that can reach the center hex, he is likely to get crushed.

[Kraggi]

Forest units can attack them, I beleive it was said somewhere. Sorry, don't remember where.

[Fuzzy_Juan]

fliers, archers, and forest capable units (woodsy elves and forrest Gumps).

Those are the forces that can attack the dwagons in the woods...against the hex with no warlords, he might bring some other units that cannot attack as a screen. If they can't direct attacks, might as well throw some cannon fodder to increase the number of units capable of attacking dwagons that survive.

[Zeku]

Just wanted to mention that the discussion about Ansom's attack being suicidal is completely irrelevant.

Ansom has no choice but to attack, because if he doesn't he loses all of the siege next turn. We have to assume that Ansom is a powerful unit, and that losing him is worth killing 25 dwagons and 3 warlords.

We can also assume that Ansom's forces have enough forest and air units to engage and defeat all the B dwagons, even at full health, provided that they are properly moved and distributed through the column, which shouldn't take more than a turn or two. (As well as the fact that non-forest units can engage and destroy the dragons if the dragons don't park in the forest.)

And especially don't forget that Jillian being held in reserve is the reason why the dwagons can be engaged and defeated anywhere they choose to park, including, we can safely assume, where they are right now.

[BarGamer]

Hurray for 300 replies!

This is the first Erfworld. thread to ever break the 300 mark. None of the other threads come close. Time to break out the champagne and celebrate.

The lesson here? In order to really get a bunch of interest and discussion, you gotta have more strategy and less, um, non... erm, strategy... stuff.

Like plot and character development.

Yea...
So you guys get on that.

Will there be quantum-probability-jelly-filled, bubble-gum-(and other flavors)-dragon-sprinkled, Donuts of Doom for Ansom? Be careful when you bite, lest you get it all over your shirt (and column!)

Ok, I've filled my pun quota for tonight. :D

[Freederick]

Greetings,

I think there is more evidence of this being a trap. If you look at Page 48 panel 8 one can see two yellow, two pink and one black dwagon nestling into the woods. But in page 56 panels 3 and 6 none of the hexes with dwagons shown hold this combination of dwagons. And in fact there does not seem to be any black dwagons shown on Ansom's map. Either Vinnie misreported its color or some of those dwagons in those hexs are not B dwagons. I just happend to notice this while looking for dwagon panels to show someone how cute they are for monstrous engines of death and destruction

Actually, that's a brown dwagon, not a black, in Erfworld 48. But the fact remains, that there is a mismatch. Possibly it's a blooper; on the other hand, those shown in Erf48 might be group "A" replacement dwagons, waiting to be cycled in.

[Fuzzy_Juan]

Actually, I think the mismatch is not a blooper, but an indication of one theory...

Spoiler

Show

The dwagons in the outer ring are (mostly) the dwagons that attacked the column with the exception of the rear hex and one dwagon in each of the other 5 outer rings...the ones in the middle are all B dwagons...waiting for someone 'foolish' enough to break through the hex of 3 dwagons to get at the 'wounded' dwagons that attacked the column...

Since the colors in the group that attacked (red, red, green, green, pink) and the one we see in the twees nestling in (yellow, yellow, pink, pink, brown) don't show up on the map in any group we can assume 2 things...

1: Since the origional plan involved the 'b' dwagons remaining stationary and they apparently are not where they were, one can only assume that they have either been shifted for no reason in the circle, or they have moved into a new hex as a trap.

2: The 'a' group that attacked first does not show up in any of the outer ring hexes...which means that they are either in the center hex, in the fog, or have been dispersed into the ring. SInce it is unlikely that Parson has moved anything unnecessarily (like shuffling the 'b' dwagons around the ring), it goes to reason that the movement is deliberate and necessary. It wouln't be necessary to move anyone in the ring unless the wounded were going into the ring...and if the wounded went into the ring, the 'b' dwagons had only one place to go if they were going to cause damage on Ansom's turn...

Spoiler

Show

If they are going to do somethign that Parson says 'for starters' about, his dwagons have to be in place to strike without moving...which means placing his troops where the enemy is sure to strike with a force that you are fairly sure you can destroy...what better place than a hard to reach hex that only a few can get to and fight in effectively that has a hole just inviting attack...

Soon they will learn that Stanly is no longer the mastermind behind the forces of Gobwin Knob...at that time, they will probably get alot more careful about how they attack and move.

[Maelore]

Actually, that's a brown dwagon, not a black,

You are correct. Actually comparing the panel on two different pc's I now realize that my work pc is showing everything as at least a shade darker than my home pc. Very odd.

As an aside to the dwagon discussion, am I the only person who finds the gwiffon Jillian is mounted on to be adorably huggable looking?