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  1. - Top - End - #1021
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    Default Re: Roy's level

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    Control Weather is a 7th level spell, which we know Durkon could cast by this point in time.
    Actually, unless you're thinking of a time other than the time in Cliffport, no; he used a scroll there.
    And most people agree that clerics are more powerful than fighters.
    As far as that goes, Roy is bitterly aware that Eugene would never consider him the equal of--

    --well, Eugene and Roy argued over whether Roy was as powerful as his third level wizard sister in the section of strips under debate, if you recall. Whatever motivated Eugene to say that Roy was the highest level Good character on the field, we can cross "the Internet's D&D tier system" off the list of possibilities.

  2. - Top - End - #1022
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    We have seen characters wearing gloves in OOTS. Namely, Thor has been seen wearing gloves, as has, if you want a more human-sized example, the Azurite blacksmith. We also know that Haley isn't wearing gloves of dexterity.
    While I'd agree with this in the general case, the description here means we can't take it to be true in the specific case:
    Gloves of Arrow Snaring
    Once snugly worn, these gloves seem to meld with the hands, becoming almost invisible. Twice per day, the wearer can act as if he had the Snatch Arrows feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites for it. Both gloves must be worn for the magic to be effective. At least one hand must be free to take advantage of the magic.

    Faint abjuration; CL 3rd; Craft Wondrous Item, shield; Price 4,000 gp.
    Given that they're almost invisible when worn, it's quite probably they wouldn't be represented in the art.
    Last edited by Gilphon; 2012-05-04 at 01:10 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #1023
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Actually, you got that the wrong way for Robilar's Gambit: it specifically says that your AoO comes after the attack that provoked it.
    Whoops. That's what I get for glancing at my book at sunset without turning on the light. Curse you penny-pinching!

    I would still definitely go with Sidestep Charge in this case though, because
    1. OotS very rarely uses non-core material, much less non-SRD material, so when presented with two possible explanations it's much better to go with the SRD one.
    2. What Tarquin did unambiguously looks like a sidestep charge, while the visual cue for Robilar's Gambit is much more subtle (although his stance in the last panel of 850 does look like it might qualify).
    3. Tarquin's AC has been shown to be quite high, but I seriously doubt it's not-get-hit-by-a-charging-fighter-while-using-Robilar's-Gambit high.
    My own personal preference would be for this too, but I'll wait for consensus to form before committing to anything.

    While I'd agree with this in the general case, the description here means we can't take it to be true in the specific case:
    Gloves of Arrow Snaring
    Once snugly worn, these gloves seem to meld with the hands, becoming almost invisible. Twice per day, the wearer can act as if he had the Snatch Arrows feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites for it. Both gloves must be worn for the magic to be effective. At least one hand must be free to take advantage of the magic.

    Faint abjuration; CL 3rd; Craft Wondrous Item, shield; Price 4,000 gp.
    Given that they're almost invisible when worn, it's quite probably they wouldn't be represented in the art.
    Hmm. Time for another consensus drive then. Does the existance of the magic item mean we can't assume either until futher proof comes up, or do we keep the feat until proof that it's the item presents itself?
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  4. - Top - End - #1024
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by RMS Oceanic View Post
    My own personal preference would be for this too, but I'll wait for consensus to form before committing to anything.

    Hmm. Time for another consensus drive then. Does the existance of the magic item mean we can't assume either until futher proof comes up, or do we keep the feat until proof that it's the item presents itself?
    Sidestep Charge, thumbs up. Snatch Arrows, thumbs down.

  5. - Top - End - #1025
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Sidestep Charge, thumbs up. Snatch Arrows, thumbs down.
    Same here.

  6. - Top - End - #1026
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Sidestep Charge thumbs up Snatch arrows thumbs up. Occam's Razor applies here. Assuming a magic item is multiplying entities
    Last edited by Lvl45DM!; 2012-05-04 at 06:42 AM.
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  7. - Top - End - #1027
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lvl45DM! View Post
    Sidestep Charge thumbs up Snatch arrows thumbs up. Occam's Razor applies here. Assuming a magic item is multiplying entities
    A basic feat is neither more nor less of an entity than a common magic item. So no.

    You can argue that Snatch Arrows is an entity which you are comfortable assuming exists here, but not that there are fewer entities in "Snatch Arrows" than in "Gloves of Missile Snaring." In fact, Snatch Arrows, which has the prerequisites of Dex 15, Deflect Arrows, and Improved Unarmed Strike, would thus constitute four entities, while Gloves of Missile Snaring, which has no prerequisites, constitutes one. Note, please, that I'm not trying to invalidate your vote, merely take issue with the misuse of Occam's Razor.
    Last edited by Kish; 2012-05-04 at 08:36 AM.

  8. - Top - End - #1028
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sith_Happens View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RMS Oceanic View Post
    Robilar's Gambit from PHB2 was proposed as another explanation for the AoO, but I disagree with it. RG says you resolve your AoO before your opponent strikes, and in the comic it's clear Roy attacks and misses before Tarquin responds, which is the order that Sidestep Charge dictates things happen. I may have missed it, but I didn't notice another explanation for how Tarquin did this.
    Actually, you got that the wrong way for Robilar's Gambit: it specifically says that your AoO comes after the attack that provoked it.
    Exactly. So Robilar's Gambit is perfectly applicable to the situation.

    I would still definitely go with Sidestep Charge in this case though, because
    1. OotS very rarely uses non-core material, much less non-SRD material, so when presented with two possible explanations it's much better to go with the SRD one.
    Robilar's Gambit is from Player's Handbook II, which is part of Core material.

    Sidestep Charge is listed among Psionic feats in the SRD, and originally comes from the Expanded Psionics Handbook, which is quite far away removed from Core rules. The feat itself was originally labeled as psionic, and only afterwards errataed to "general".

    In the comic, AFAIK, we haven't so far seen any serious involvement of psionic rules/mechanics, apart from the token joke appearance alongside the other "obscure classes" during O-Chul's interrogation in Azure City (which included Tome of Battle characters as well, btw).

    2. What Tarquin did unambiguously looks like a sidestep charge, while the visual cue for Robilar's Gambit is much more subtle (although his stance in the last panel of 850 does look like it might qualify).
    What Tarquin did looks like a dodge, nothing more. He dodged the blow. It does not point to the Sidestep Charge feat any more than to a high Dex/Dodge bonus to AC. His movement to the side of Roy is shown in the second panel, and is likely a part of his trip attack with his foot.

    3. Tarquin's AC has been shown to be quite high, but I seriously doubt it's not-get-hit-by-a-charging-fighter-while-using-Robilar's-Gambit high.
    This is a valid point. The combined bonuses from RG and charging do make up a hefty +6 to hit for Roy. However, this isn't anything that can't be mitigated by a, for instance, high-level item with a large AC bonus. So it's circumstantial evidence at best.

    Anyway, if Tarquin's build has a boatload of Fighter levels (which is obviously the case IMO), then there's no reason he couldn't take both Robilar's Gambit and Sidestep Charge (considering he spent a feat on something as useless as Snatch Arrow).

    But at the very least it has to be one or the other, so I believe we could list it on the first page as "Robilar's Gambit or Sidestep Charge".

    Quote Originally Posted by RMS Oceanic View Post
    Speaking of best-looking explanation, what's your opinion on the Arrow Snatching? I initially marked it as the feat and its prerequisites, but then my attention was drawn to the magic item. Is that enough to withdraw the feat entry, or would you say it's better to assume the feat until the magic item can be proven?
    Personally, I would loathe to waste a feat on Snatch Arrow. However, Quick Draw and Deflect Arrows are both reasonable choices for a Fighter with feats to spare, and Snatch Arrow does have the interesting bonus of giving you the ability to make an extra attack off your turn, even if it's with an improvised weapon (which can nevertheless be magically enhanced).

    Also, Snatch Arrow is a very dramatic action, which could appeal to Tarquin with his fondness for the theatrical.

    The Gloves of Arrow Snaring are a much worse choice, IMO. You spend an equipment slot for the ability to snatch an arrow twice per day. That's a very low number of uses for a melee fighter who by nature has a weakness against ranged attackers. Remember, the Gloves don't give any uses of the Deflect Arrows or Quick Draw feats, which are themselves quite useful.

    And finally, as you said, it's just more likely to be a feat than a (weak) magic item.

    TL;DR:
    Robilar's Gambit or Sidestep Charge
    Snatch Arrow, not Gloves of Arrow Snaring
    Last edited by Lothston; 2012-05-04 at 11:24 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #1029
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    Default Re: Roy's level

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    --well, Eugene and Roy argued over whether Roy was as powerful as his third level wizard sister in the section of strips under debate, if you recall. Whatever motivated Eugene to say that Roy was the highest level Good character on the field, we can cross "the Internet's D&D tier system" off the list of possibilities.
    He never says that Roy's sister was as powerful as Roy. Just that she could cast feather fall - implying that if Roy was able to do it, he wouldn't be dead, himself. That's no measure of power. A third level wizard would most likely be dead after a meteor swarm.

  10. - Top - End - #1030
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    PHB II is NOT core, core are PHB, GDM and MM I, strictly

  11. - Top - End - #1031
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sr.medusa View Post
    PHB II is NOT core, core are PHB, GDM and MM I, strictly
    Call it Expanded core if you like (I've had this debate too many times to care), it's still much closer to core than the Psionics Handbook.

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    Default Re: Roy's level

    Quote Originally Posted by sgtpimenta View Post
    He never says that Roy's sister was as powerful as Roy. Just that she could cast feather fall - implying that if Roy was able to do it, he wouldn't be dead, himself. That's no measure of power. A third level wizard would most likely be dead after a meteor swarm.
    Truth be told, a well-played third level wizard would be more powerful than a badly played 15th level fighter.

  13. - Top - End - #1033
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Call it Expanded core if you like (I've had this debate too many times to care), it's still much closer to core than the Psionics Handbook.
    If there's anything which would count as "expanded core", surely it would be the SRD? It's core not because it's applicable to everyone, but because it's near-universally available.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    vs. Xykon? Let's not get ridiculous, please? ;)
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lothston View Post
    In the comic, AFAIK, we haven't so far seen any serious involvement of psionic rules/mechanics, apart from the token joke appearance alongside the other "obscure classes" during O-Chul's interrogation in Azure City (which included Tome of Battle characters as well, btw).
    Wait, it did? What Tome of Battle characters does it mention? The only obscure class I remember from that scene was something about an Incarnum user.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by rgrekejin View Post
    Wait, it did? What Tome of Battle characters does it mention? The only obscure class I remember from that scene was something about an Incarnum user.
    Right you are, my bad. I thought ToB was among them, but no, psion and Incarnum user only (and apparently it was a hard time figuring out if they're even using psionics in this world :D).

    So all in all, we don't know if Rich even has ToB to make use of it in the comic. Therefore, martial adept levels should be saved for cases when we absolutely have no other explanation for what is happening.

  17. - Top - End - #1037
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    If there's anything which would count as "expanded core", surely it would be the SRD? It's core not because it's applicable to everyone, but because it's near-universally available.
    No, the SRD are only the rules which have been released under the Open Game license. They're a motley mix of core and obscure supplements, such as the Expanded Psionics Handbook, Deities and Demigods, Unearthed Arcana etc., some of which are even 3.0 (Deities).
    Last edited by Lothston; 2012-05-04 at 12:07 PM.

  18. - Top - End - #1038
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by sgtpimenta View Post
    Well… when you say things like “where could he have gained XP without his party?”, you gotta understand the reason I say people keep asking about XP.
    Fair enough. Understand, though, that it's merely an intermediate way of saying "The party is equally leveled and faces equal challenges, so should level equally."

    Quote Originally Posted by sgtpimenta View Post
    That’s because Thog is leaning away to avoid Roy’s attack. He is clearly in a defensive position (his upper body inclined backwards, the axe positioned to hold the sword’s movement). Thog's position is pretty much the same as shown in the panel above this one, where he is dodging.
    Actually, it's much closer to his position in the previous panel (where he was attacking), just rotated. Again, ambiguous. Is he starting an attack, or trying to block?

    Quote Originally Posted by sgtpimenta View Post
    One can always argue that The Giant is not drawing a single round here, but that would lead to the question: "why isn't Thog attacking back". 'Cause he's not.
    I don't know. Why did Thog and Roy spend a panel just looking at each other and not attacking? There's no clear indication that every action is being tracked until Roy starts his overhead attack routine.

    Quote Originally Posted by sgtpimenta View Post
    Roy is in a different position in this panel because he's drawn in the movement between positions, shifting from the dodge shown last panel to a more aggressive behavior. His dialog reflects that shift: at the same panel, he gives an example of not- opposites (as he was doing last panel), then he presented his closing arguments. His attacks against Thog begins with him yelling "NO! That's not a good point". He will finish this sequence with another furious yell ("NOTHING!").

    Each panel shows, closer and closer, a slightly different position of both characters: Roy is increasingly offensive (he's beating down Thog with both sword and words) and Thog, on the other hand, is portrayed increasingly vulnerable (he seems harmless at first, then scared, then hurt). He don't even have a chance to answer (neither with a line or a swing of his axe).

    The relative positions of both character also changes: Roy is shown in a higher and higher position each passing panel - which is a visual clue used by the artist to further reinforce the idea of gradual victory over Thog. These gradual changes reinforce the sense of continuity and movement, binding these panels together in a single sequence.
    In the next strip, the end of Roy's unarmed full attack also constitutes the beginning of a single sequence establishing Thog's dominance, but nobody could argue that it was actually Thog's attack. There's no clear correspondence between a single "sequence" and a single round. Especially true when you haven't adequately defined a sequence or why we should care about it--I mean, is this a sequence? How about this?

    The mere fact that this is a discussion where both points of view can legitimately be held (at least where that specific round is concerned) only illustrates how this evidence is not as good as other full-attack evidence. In those cases, every attack was unambiguously an attack by the same character in the same round.

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    I was aware that you said that, but the fact that he's the party leader is irrelevant in the context of Eugene's statement, because it has nothing to do with his level. Eugene has absolutely no reason to point out that Roy is the highest-level character on the field unless he is arguing that Roy being higher level than the other Good characters makes him responsible, in some way, for the fall of Azure City. At no time does Eugene mention the fact that Roy leads his party, unless you count his use of the phrase "your ineffective leadership," a phrase he uses in a conclusion rather than an argument.
    However, Eugene's statement is only effective in the context of his overall argument, in which Roy's ineffective leadership of the Order is surely an effective counterargument against any possible defense Roy could muster on those grounds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    Control Weather is a 7th level spell, which we know Durkon could cast by this point in time. And most people agree that clerics are more powerful than fighters. Aside from this, Word of Giant from one of the sourcebooks - I can't remember which - calls Durkon "even more competent/responsible (can't remember which word) than Roy."

    So if you assume that Eugene is simply making stuff up - fully aware that Roy can call him out for lying - when he calls Roy "the highest level character," the only thing he could say if Roy said "now you're just inventing random nonsense" would be "Well, you technically lead the party!" But Eugene's point is that "with great power comes great blame." (Or at least that's how Roy interprets it, and Eugene agrees with this interpretation.) If Roy is not the most powerful member of the party in some sense, then nothing Eugene says here makes any sense.
    Durkon might be responsible, even competent, but is he a leader? Check his Cha. Read the comic and count the instances where he demonstrates leadership skills.

    And now you're reading "with great power comes great blame" as "with unrivaled power comes great blame." Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    First, Eugene only "plays with the truth" when he knows the person he is talking to does not know the facts. Lying to somebody's face when they already know the truth is mind-bogglingly stupid.
    But getting the rhetorical maximum out of a barb when you know the person you're needling can't effectively retort is not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    I don't know why anybody is still arguing that Eugene is lying about the Order's levels here - the notion that Eugene somehow has more knowledge about the OOTS's levels than Roy does is absurd. (Roy, as a responsible and detail-oriented commander, presumably knows the levels of his colleagues.)
    They both know the levels, and they each take for granted that the other knows the levels. That's a premise of my argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    Second, Haley is a fine leader herself. Rich calls her "a natural leader" in the DSTP commentary.
    Again, if you'd like to provide some evidence from BEFORE Roy died and forced Haley to pick up leadership skills, feel free to do so. Rich has to note that Haley's a natural precisely because she hasn't done any leading thus far in the comic, or displayed any indication (besides high Cha) that she would be good at it. Heck, Roy had just suffered through hundreds of strips where Haley couldn't communicate, and thus couldn't lead a child to an ice cream truck. Unless he really is a future psychic, he can't know that Haley is an effective or competent leader.

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    I agree that Roy is higher level than anyone else who could be considered responsible for the battle, and more responsible than anyone else who could be considered high level, but only marginally so. If we were to assume equal levels, we would have to conclude that, contrary to Eugene's assertion, Durkon is both more responsible and more powerful than Roy. Haley is also a good leader and is probably the same level as most of the rest of the party (I see no reason why she would be substantially behind Roy, Vaarsuvius, Elan and Durkon in XP). In short, at least one member of the Order is equal to or even surpasses Roy in every metric that counts, except level and actual leadership status. And Eugene hasn't mentioned Roy's role as head of the party. He has mentioned Roy's level.
    If you're going to mention XP, there's equally no reason why Roy would be substantially ahead, so your argument falls apart on that count as well.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Math_Mage View Post
    They both know the levels, and they each take for granted that the other knows the levels. That's a premise of my argument.
    Ironically, it is also the premise of mine.

    I have repeatedly asked why Eugene would bother to lie to Roy about something he knows that Roy knows the truth about and, as of yet, have not recieved an answer.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by FujinAkari View Post
    I have repeatedly asked why Eugene would bother to lie to Roy about something he knows that Roy knows the truth about and, as of yet, have not recieved an answer.
    I does not matter to Eugene in regard to the point he makes. He wants to get that point across and does not directly lie, but does not consider the truth to be all that important.
    Is it equal, above or below one level? It does not matter for Eugene and he probably does not spend a fraction of a second pondering this, as long as he can make his point (which he does).
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by FujinAkari View Post
    Ironically, it is also the premise of mine.

    I have repeatedly asked why Eugene would bother to lie to Roy about something he knows that Roy knows the truth about and, as of yet, have not recieved an answer.
    He's not lying. He just doesn't care if some members of the Order might be Roy's level, since Roy is their leader and thus can't shove the blame for the battle off on them anyway. It's certainly snappier than "You were the highest-leveled Good character on the battlefield except for a few that are effectively under your command anyway, it was your fight to lose."

    Why WOULDN'T Eugene skirt that technicality? How would Roy call him out on it without inviting another reprisal?

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lothston View Post
    Right you are, my bad. I thought ToB was among them, but no, psion and Incarnum user only (and apparently it was a hard time figuring out if they're even using psionics in this world :D).

    So all in all, we don't know if Rich even has ToB to make use of it in the comic. Therefore, martial adept levels should be saved for cases when we absolutely have no other explanation for what is happening.
    Yeah, this seems like an eminently reasonable conclusion to me. Rich has used very few non-core things, and almost all of them were in throwaway gags that specifically drew attention to themself (with one or two very notable exceptions).

    By my count, here are the instances of non-core classes:

    1. Ninja (Therkla, Azure City ninjas, Goblin ninjas. Complete Adventurer)
    2. Dashing Swordsman (Elan, Julio Scoundrel. Third-party sourcebook)
    3. Unspecified Psionic classes (Blue goblin, The Little Psion that Could, Psteve the Psion from the Dragon comics. Expanded Psionics Handbook)
    4. Unspecified Incarnum classes (Redcloak mentions one, one appears as an intern adventurer in the Dragon comics. Magic of Incarnum)
    5. Spellthief (Intern adventurer in Dragon comics. Complete Adventurer)
    6. Warlock (Tavern Brawl. Complete Arcane)
    7. Possible Soulknife (Tavern Brawl, Expanded Psionics Handbook)

    So, that's a total of only seven classes, spread across only five books (only four of which even actually exist), and some of those are from the Dragon comics, whose audience would be more likely to know about those specific classes than a general reader. There are of course additional non-core shoutouts (Redcloak's three skeletal minions, Tsukiko's non-core spells, Thog's Dungeoncrasher ability and the acid-born shark come to mind), but they've been specifically called out each time, either in-comic or on these forums by Rich. Something as substantive as the actual class of a major antagonist would be unlikely to rely on a niche rulebook from the 3.5 system. Sure, Therkla was a major player in the comic, but she was a ninja, and everybody knows what ninjas do, even if they don't know the DnD rules for them. The things from the Tome of Battle are rather clearly invented just for DnD, and would not be immediately clear to someone who wasn't familiar with that rather specific niche splatbook. So unless we at some point get specific in-comic mention of Tarquin being a martial adept of some sort, Rich explicitly says he is one here, or he does something that simply cannot be explained through any other mechanism, Tarquin should not be assumed have a Tome of Battle class.

    ...wow, that whole wall of text was only vaguely on topic. But I took the time to write it, so I'm going to post it anyway. Sorry.
    Last edited by rgrekejin; 2012-05-04 at 01:54 PM.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    It seems to me that we're putting far too much effort into analyzing a pretty simple and minor quote. Especially given that no interpretation of it gives conclusive evidence for Roy being 13+.

    Also, although I argued against it earlier, I do find Snatch Arrows to be more likely than the alternative.
    Last edited by Gilphon; 2012-05-04 at 01:59 PM.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Math_Mage View Post
    He's not lying. He just doesn't care if some members of the Order might be Roy's level, since Roy is their leader and thus can't shove the blame for the battle off on them anyway. It's certainly snappier than "You were the highest-leveled Good character on the battlefield except for a few that are effectively under your command anyway, it was your fight to lose."
    But NOT better than "You commanded the highest-leveled fighting force on the field, it was your fight to lose!" That even sounds better, frankly. His whole point was that Roy went and tried to go mano-e-mano against a magic user and met the fate fighters should meet when they do that. If he had the chance to drive that point home.

    It just feels like you are attempting to dismiss the quote based on nothing but conjecture... you don't seem to have a single shred of evidence that contests Eugene's contention, you just want it to be false, from what I can see.
    Last edited by FujinAkari; 2012-05-04 at 02:14 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Thank you, FujinAkari.
    Continuation of ThePhantasm's awesometacular post

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by FujinAkari View Post
    But NOT better than "You commanded the highest-leveled fighting force on the field, it was your fight to lose!" That even sounds better, frankly. His whole point was that Roy went and tried to go mano-e-mano against a magic user and met the fate fighters should meet when they do that. If he had the chance to drive that point home.

    It just feels like you are attempting to dismiss the quote based on nothing but conjecture... you don't seem to have a single shred of evidence that contests Eugene's contention, you just want it to be false, from what I can see.
    My arguments work fine whether Roy is 13 or 14. I just find Eugene's statement inconsistent with knowing that everyone was the same level at the start of the comic, and that Roy hasn't had any opportunity to get ahead of the others. I'm trying to resolve that inconsistency, is all.

    I rather doubt Eugene would use Roy's party against him with wording such as you describe; he's never evinced any interest in their capabilities or activities before, but for an incomprehensible prophecy regarding Haley's nat 20.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Actually, unless you're thinking of a time other than the time in Cliffport, no; he used a scroll there.
    Oh, you're right. Thanks for reminding me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    As far as that goes, Roy is bitterly aware that Eugene would never consider him the equal of--

    --well, Eugene and Roy argued over whether Roy was as powerful as his third level wizard sister in the section of strips under debate, if you recall. Whatever motivated Eugene to say that Roy was the highest level Good character on the field, we can cross "the Internet's D&D tier system" off the list of possibilities.
    As someone else pointed out, Eugene probably does not take the absurd view that Julia is actually currently more powerful than Roy. He simply thinks she has a better shot of growing up to the point where she is able to defeat Xykon, and he points out one (insignificant) advantage that his daughter would have had over Roy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Math_Mage View Post
    However, Eugene's statement is only effective in the context of his overall argument, in which Roy's ineffective leadership of the Order is surely an effective counterargument against any possible defense Roy could muster on those grounds.
    Eugene's assertion is that Roy is an ineffective leader (and not specifically of the Order - I interpreted his statement to mean "of the entire side of Good"). An assertion is not an argument at all. His evidence is that Roy is "the highest-level Good" character, which I discuss below.

    Quote Originally Posted by Math_Mage View Post
    Durkon might be responsible, even competent, but is he a leader? Check his Cha. Read the comic and count the instances where he demonstrates leadership skills.

    And now you're reading "with great power comes great blame" as "with unrivaled power comes great blame." Why?
    I'm reading that phrase as "with preeminent power comes preeminent blame," because Eugene's obvious implication is that Roy bears more responsibility for the fall of Azure City than any single other individual.

    Also, when it comes to taking down Xykon, what matters more, the formal status of leading the party or raw power? I'd argue the latter, although I don't suppose the answer is clear-cut enough to be provable. But it doesn't matter what you or me think the answer is, because the supporting evidence Eugene gives for his assertion that Roy "led" the battle is no more and no less than the following: "You were the highest level Good character on the field, and a PC to boot. It was your fight to lose." Eugene says nothing about Roy heading the party. I still don't understand why you're arguing that a marginally plausible implicit statement (that Eugene is blaming Roy because he led the party) is more important than an explicit statement (that Eugene is blaming Roy because he was "the highest level Good character on the field"). Barring extraordinary circumstances, empirically explicit statements are always better evidence than debatable implicit statements.

    Quote Originally Posted by Math_Mage View Post
    But getting the rhetorical maximum out of a barb when you know the person you're needling can't effectively retort is not.
    Sample retort: "Dad, you have no idea what you're talking about. I wasn't even the highest level Good character on the field. If you want to blame me for losing to a sorcerer - what, eight levels higher than me? - fine, but don't pull made-up crap out of your rectum to try and satisfy your compulsive need to blame me for everything."

    I'm sure Roy could come up with something wittier on the spot; he usually does. But the point is, he can effectively retort, and Eugene knows it, presumably having an Einstein-esque Intelligence of around 20.

    Quote Originally Posted by Math_Mage View Post
    Again, if you'd like to provide some evidence from BEFORE Roy died and forced Haley to pick up leadership skills, feel free to do so. Rich has to note that Haley's a natural precisely because she hasn't done any leading thus far in the comic, or displayed any indication (besides high Cha) that she would be good at it. Heck, Roy had just suffered through hundreds of strips where Haley couldn't communicate, and thus couldn't lead a child to an ice cream truck. Unless he really is a future psychic, he can't know that Haley is an effective or competent leader.
    That's true. Point conceded.

    Quote Originally Posted by Math_Mage View Post
    If you're going to mention XP, there's equally no reason why Roy would be substantially ahead, so your argument falls apart on that count as well.
    Why are we assuming that Roy was always at exactly the same level as the rest of the Order? As far as I know, there's no good reason for making that assumption.

    It's also possible that Roy got enough XP to level beyond the rest of the party from defeating Miko and dozens of ninjas. That's gotta be a lot more XP than the five Order members would have gotten from defeating three members of the Linear Guild.
    Last edited by Emanick; 2012-05-04 at 02:54 PM.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    Eugene's assertion is that Roy is an ineffective leader (and not specifically of the Order - I interpreted his statement to mean "of the entire side of Good"). An assertion is not an argument at all. His evidence is that Roy is "the highest-level Good" character, which I discuss below.
    I think I need to clarify my position here:
    Roy is higher level than 99.9% of the Good people on the field + Roy is already the leader of the remaining 0.1% by agreement = Roy is the leader of the Good side, whether or not the remaining 0.1% are Roy's level.

    I should also reemphasize, I'm not really looking for a best explanation of this individual scene, I'm trying to create room to fit it into existing knowns, which is the next topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    Why are we assuming that Roy was always at exactly the same level as the rest of the Order? As far as I know, there's no good reason for making that assumption.
    From this strip, where everyone gains a level but Belkar, who was "a little behind us" at the start of the comic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    It's also possible that Roy got enough XP to level beyond the rest of the party from defeating Miko and dozens of ninjas. That's gotta be a lot more XP than the five Order members would have gotten from defeating three members of the Linear Guild.
    This is true, and I hadn't thought about it. Not more than one, but one level is plausible, given the potential for off-panel encounters.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by rgrekejin View Post
    Yeah, this seems like an eminently reasonable conclusion to me. Rich has used very few non-core things, and almost all of them were in throwaway gags that specifically drew attention to themself (with one or two very notable exceptions).

    By my count, here are the instances of non-core classes:

    1. Ninja (Therkla, Azure City ninjas, Goblin ninjas. Complete Adventurer)
    2. Dashing Swordsman (Elan, Julio Scoundrel. Third-party sourcebook)
    3. Unspecified Psionic classes (Blue goblin, The Little Psion that Could, Psteve the Psion from the Dragon comics. Expanded Psionics Handbook)
    4. Unspecified Incarnum classes (Redcloak mentions one, one appears as an intern adventurer in the Dragon comics. Magic of Incarnum)
    5. Spellthief (Intern adventurer in Dragon comics. Complete Adventurer)
    6. Warlock (Tavern Brawl. Complete Arcane)
    7. Possible Soulknife (Tavern Brawl, Expanded Psionics Handbook)

    So, that's a total of only seven classes, spread across only five books (only four of which even actually exist), and some of those are from the Dragon comics, whose audience would be more likely to know about those specific classes than a general reader. There are of course additional non-core shoutouts (Redcloak's three skeletal minions, Tsukiko's non-core spells, Thog's Dungeoncrasher ability and the acid-born shark come to mind), but they've been specifically called out each time, either in-comic or on these forums by Rich. Something as substantive as the actual class of a major antagonist would be unlikely to rely on a niche rulebook from the 3.5 system. Sure, Therkla was a major player in the comic, but she was a ninja, and everybody knows what ninjas do, even if they don't know the DnD rules for them. The things from the Tome of Battle are rather clearly invented just for DnD, and would not be immediately clear to someone who wasn't familiar with that rather specific niche splatbook. So unless we at some point get specific in-comic mention of Tarquin being a martial adept of some sort, Rich explicitly says he is one here, or he does something that simply cannot be explained through any other mechanism, Tarquin should not be assumed have a Tome of Battle class.

    ...wow, that whole wall of text was only vaguely on topic. But I took the time to write it, so I'm going to post it anyway. Sorry.
    I'd further note that, as I've said in the past, we really don't know whether the ninjas seen in the comic actually had any sort of ninja class or not.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Was Kubota's aristocrat-friendly prestige class based on an actual class?
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    He didn't specify a name for the prestige class. So, to list one, you'd need to prove a negative. ("I assert that there is no other prestige class in all the D&D books and the imagination of Rich Burlew to which Kubota could have been referring!")

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