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2012-05-03, 11:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Roy's level
Actually, unless you're thinking of a time other than the time in Cliffport, no; he used a scroll there.
And most people agree that clerics are more powerful than fighters.
--well, Eugene and Roy argued over whether Roy was as powerful as his third level wizard sister in the section of strips under debate, if you recall. Whatever motivated Eugene to say that Roy was the highest level Good character on the field, we can cross "the Internet's D&D tier system" off the list of possibilities.Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2012-05-04, 01:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
While I'd agree with this in the general case, the description here means we can't take it to be true in the specific case:
Gloves of Arrow Snaring
Once snugly worn, these gloves seem to meld with the hands, becoming almost invisible. Twice per day, the wearer can act as if he had the Snatch Arrows feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites for it. Both gloves must be worn for the magic to be effective. At least one hand must be free to take advantage of the magic.
Faint abjuration; CL 3rd; Craft Wondrous Item, shield; Price 4,000 gp.Last edited by Gilphon; 2012-05-04 at 01:10 AM.
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2012-05-04, 02:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Actually, you got that the wrong way for Robilar's Gambit: it specifically says that your AoO comes after the attack that provoked it.
I would still definitely go with Sidestep Charge in this case though, because
1. OotS very rarely uses non-core material, much less non-SRD material, so when presented with two possible explanations it's much better to go with the SRD one.
2. What Tarquin did unambiguously looks like a sidestep charge, while the visual cue for Robilar's Gambit is much more subtle (although his stance in the last panel of 850 does look like it might qualify).
3. Tarquin's AC has been shown to be quite high, but I seriously doubt it's not-get-hit-by-a-charging-fighter-while-using-Robilar's-Gambit high.
While I'd agree with this in the general case, the description here means we can't take it to be true in the specific case:
Gloves of Arrow Snaring
Once snugly worn, these gloves seem to meld with the hands, becoming almost invisible. Twice per day, the wearer can act as if he had the Snatch Arrows feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites for it. Both gloves must be worn for the magic to be effective. At least one hand must be free to take advantage of the magic.
Faint abjuration; CL 3rd; Craft Wondrous Item, shield; Price 4,000 gp."They couldn't know that the points from the mainline to the siding were frozen, and the signal should have been set at 'DANGER', but snow had forced it down."
- The Flying Kipper
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2012-05-04, 06:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2012-05-04, 06:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-05-04, 06:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Sidestep Charge thumbs up Snatch arrows thumbs up. Occam's Razor applies here. Assuming a magic item is multiplying entities
Last edited by Lvl45DM!; 2012-05-04 at 06:42 AM.
I Am A:Neutral Good Human Bard/Sorcerer (2nd/1st Level)
Ability Scores:
Strength-14
Dexterity-11
Constitution-16
Intelligence-16
Wisdom-12
Charisma-16
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2012-05-04, 06:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
A basic feat is neither more nor less of an entity than a common magic item. So no.
You can argue that Snatch Arrows is an entity which you are comfortable assuming exists here, but not that there are fewer entities in "Snatch Arrows" than in "Gloves of Missile Snaring." In fact, Snatch Arrows, which has the prerequisites of Dex 15, Deflect Arrows, and Improved Unarmed Strike, would thus constitute four entities, while Gloves of Missile Snaring, which has no prerequisites, constitutes one. Note, please, that I'm not trying to invalidate your vote, merely take issue with the misuse of Occam's Razor.Last edited by Kish; 2012-05-04 at 08:36 AM.
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2012-05-04, 10:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Exactly. So Robilar's Gambit is perfectly applicable to the situation.
I would still definitely go with Sidestep Charge in this case though, because
1. OotS very rarely uses non-core material, much less non-SRD material, so when presented with two possible explanations it's much better to go with the SRD one.
Sidestep Charge is listed among Psionic feats in the SRD, and originally comes from the Expanded Psionics Handbook, which is quite far away removed from Core rules. The feat itself was originally labeled as psionic, and only afterwards errataed to "general".
In the comic, AFAIK, we haven't so far seen any serious involvement of psionic rules/mechanics, apart from the token joke appearance alongside the other "obscure classes" during O-Chul's interrogation in Azure City (which included Tome of Battle characters as well, btw).
2. What Tarquin did unambiguously looks like a sidestep charge, while the visual cue for Robilar's Gambit is much more subtle (although his stance in the last panel of 850 does look like it might qualify).
3. Tarquin's AC has been shown to be quite high, but I seriously doubt it's not-get-hit-by-a-charging-fighter-while-using-Robilar's-Gambit high.
Anyway, if Tarquin's build has a boatload of Fighter levels (which is obviously the case IMO), then there's no reason he couldn't take both Robilar's Gambit and Sidestep Charge (considering he spent a feat on something as useless as Snatch Arrow).
But at the very least it has to be one or the other, so I believe we could list it on the first page as "Robilar's Gambit or Sidestep Charge".
Personally, I would loathe to waste a feat on Snatch Arrow. However, Quick Draw and Deflect Arrows are both reasonable choices for a Fighter with feats to spare, and Snatch Arrow does have the interesting bonus of giving you the ability to make an extra attack off your turn, even if it's with an improvised weapon (which can nevertheless be magically enhanced).
Also, Snatch Arrow is a very dramatic action, which could appeal to Tarquin with his fondness for the theatrical.
The Gloves of Arrow Snaring are a much worse choice, IMO. You spend an equipment slot for the ability to snatch an arrow twice per day. That's a very low number of uses for a melee fighter who by nature has a weakness against ranged attackers. Remember, the Gloves don't give any uses of the Deflect Arrows or Quick Draw feats, which are themselves quite useful.
And finally, as you said, it's just more likely to be a feat than a (weak) magic item.
TL;DR:
Robilar's Gambit or Sidestep Charge
Snatch Arrow, not Gloves of Arrow SnaringLast edited by Lothston; 2012-05-04 at 11:24 AM.
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2012-05-04, 11:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Roy's level
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2012-05-04, 11:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
PHB II is NOT core, core are PHB, GDM and MM I, strictly
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2012-05-04, 11:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-05-04, 11:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-05-04, 11:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Call it Expanded core if you like (I've had this debate too many times to care), it's still much closer to core than the Psionics Handbook.Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
—As You Like It, III:ii:328
Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide
Current Homebrew: 5th edition psionics
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2012-05-04, 11:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
vs. Xykon? Let's not get ridiculous, please? ;)
Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, Queen Cersei, King Joffrey, The Tickler, The Hound, Ser Amory, Polliver, Raff the Sweetling, Weese, Dunsen, Nale, Ser Gregor Clegane and Chiswyck: Winter is coming!
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2012-05-04, 11:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-05-04, 12:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Right you are, my bad. I thought ToB was among them, but no, psion and Incarnum user only (and apparently it was a hard time figuring out if they're even using psionics in this world :D).
So all in all, we don't know if Rich even has ToB to make use of it in the comic. Therefore, martial adept levels should be saved for cases when we absolutely have no other explanation for what is happening.
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2012-05-04, 12:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
No, the SRD are only the rules which have been released under the Open Game license. They're a motley mix of core and obscure supplements, such as the Expanded Psionics Handbook, Deities and Demigods, Unearthed Arcana etc., some of which are even 3.0 (Deities).
Last edited by Lothston; 2012-05-04 at 12:07 PM.
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2012-05-04, 12:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Fair enough. Understand, though, that it's merely an intermediate way of saying "The party is equally leveled and faces equal challenges, so should level equally."
Actually, it's much closer to his position in the previous panel (where he was attacking), just rotated. Again, ambiguous. Is he starting an attack, or trying to block?
I don't know. Why did Thog and Roy spend a panel just looking at each other and not attacking? There's no clear indication that every action is being tracked until Roy starts his overhead attack routine.
In the next strip, the end of Roy's unarmed full attack also constitutes the beginning of a single sequence establishing Thog's dominance, but nobody could argue that it was actually Thog's attack. There's no clear correspondence between a single "sequence" and a single round. Especially true when you haven't adequately defined a sequence or why we should care about it--I mean, is this a sequence? How about this?
The mere fact that this is a discussion where both points of view can legitimately be held (at least where that specific round is concerned) only illustrates how this evidence is not as good as other full-attack evidence. In those cases, every attack was unambiguously an attack by the same character in the same round.
However, Eugene's statement is only effective in the context of his overall argument, in which Roy's ineffective leadership of the Order is surely an effective counterargument against any possible defense Roy could muster on those grounds.
Durkon might be responsible, even competent, but is he a leader? Check his Cha. Read the comic and count the instances where he demonstrates leadership skills.
And now you're reading "with great power comes great blame" as "with unrivaled power comes great blame." Why?
But getting the rhetorical maximum out of a barb when you know the person you're needling can't effectively retort is not.
They both know the levels, and they each take for granted that the other knows the levels. That's a premise of my argument.
Again, if you'd like to provide some evidence from BEFORE Roy died and forced Haley to pick up leadership skills, feel free to do so. Rich has to note that Haley's a natural precisely because she hasn't done any leading thus far in the comic, or displayed any indication (besides high Cha) that she would be good at it. Heck, Roy had just suffered through hundreds of strips where Haley couldn't communicate, and thus couldn't lead a child to an ice cream truck. Unless he really is a future psychic, he can't know that Haley is an effective or competent leader.
If you're going to mention XP, there's equally no reason why Roy would be substantially ahead, so your argument falls apart on that count as well.
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2012-05-04, 12:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
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English isn't my primary language, so please let me know if something I'm saying doesn't make sense!Continuation of ThePhantasm's awesometacular post
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2012-05-04, 12:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
I does not matter to Eugene in regard to the point he makes. He wants to get that point across and does not directly lie, but does not consider the truth to be all that important.
Is it equal, above or below one level? It does not matter for Eugene and he probably does not spend a fraction of a second pondering this, as long as he can make his point (which he does).Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, Queen Cersei, King Joffrey, The Tickler, The Hound, Ser Amory, Polliver, Raff the Sweetling, Weese, Dunsen, Nale, Ser Gregor Clegane and Chiswyck: Winter is coming!
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2012-05-04, 01:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
He's not lying. He just doesn't care if some members of the Order might be Roy's level, since Roy is their leader and thus can't shove the blame for the battle off on them anyway. It's certainly snappier than "You were the highest-leveled Good character on the battlefield except for a few that are effectively under your command anyway, it was your fight to lose."
Why WOULDN'T Eugene skirt that technicality? How would Roy call him out on it without inviting another reprisal?
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2012-05-04, 01:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Yeah, this seems like an eminently reasonable conclusion to me. Rich has used very few non-core things, and almost all of them were in throwaway gags that specifically drew attention to themself (with one or two very notable exceptions).
By my count, here are the instances of non-core classes:
1. Ninja (Therkla, Azure City ninjas, Goblin ninjas. Complete Adventurer)
2. Dashing Swordsman (Elan, Julio Scoundrel. Third-party sourcebook)
3. Unspecified Psionic classes (Blue goblin, The Little Psion that Could, Psteve the Psion from the Dragon comics. Expanded Psionics Handbook)
4. Unspecified Incarnum classes (Redcloak mentions one, one appears as an intern adventurer in the Dragon comics. Magic of Incarnum)
5. Spellthief (Intern adventurer in Dragon comics. Complete Adventurer)
6. Warlock (Tavern Brawl. Complete Arcane)
7. Possible Soulknife (Tavern Brawl, Expanded Psionics Handbook)
So, that's a total of only seven classes, spread across only five books (only four of which even actually exist), and some of those are from the Dragon comics, whose audience would be more likely to know about those specific classes than a general reader. There are of course additional non-core shoutouts (Redcloak's three skeletal minions, Tsukiko's non-core spells, Thog's Dungeoncrasher ability and the acid-born shark come to mind), but they've been specifically called out each time, either in-comic or on these forums by Rich. Something as substantive as the actual class of a major antagonist would be unlikely to rely on a niche rulebook from the 3.5 system. Sure, Therkla was a major player in the comic, but she was a ninja, and everybody knows what ninjas do, even if they don't know the DnD rules for them. The things from the Tome of Battle are rather clearly invented just for DnD, and would not be immediately clear to someone who wasn't familiar with that rather specific niche splatbook. So unless we at some point get specific in-comic mention of Tarquin being a martial adept of some sort, Rich explicitly says he is one here, or he does something that simply cannot be explained through any other mechanism, Tarquin should not be assumed have a Tome of Battle class.
...wow, that whole wall of text was only vaguely on topic. But I took the time to write it, so I'm going to post it anyway. Sorry.Last edited by rgrekejin; 2012-05-04 at 01:54 PM.
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2012-05-04, 01:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
It seems to me that we're putting far too much effort into analyzing a pretty simple and minor quote. Especially given that no interpretation of it gives conclusive evidence for Roy being 13+.
Also, although I argued against it earlier, I do find Snatch Arrows to be more likely than the alternative.Last edited by Gilphon; 2012-05-04 at 01:59 PM.
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2012-05-04, 02:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
But NOT better than "You commanded the highest-leveled fighting force on the field, it was your fight to lose!" That even sounds better, frankly. His whole point was that Roy went and tried to go mano-e-mano against a magic user and met the fate fighters should meet when they do that. If he had the chance to drive that point home.
It just feels like you are attempting to dismiss the quote based on nothing but conjecture... you don't seem to have a single shred of evidence that contests Eugene's contention, you just want it to be false, from what I can see.Last edited by FujinAkari; 2012-05-04 at 02:14 PM.
Official Incense Aroma Specialist for the Vaarsuvius Fan Club!
English isn't my primary language, so please let me know if something I'm saying doesn't make sense!Continuation of ThePhantasm's awesometacular post
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2012-05-04, 02:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
My arguments work fine whether Roy is 13 or 14. I just find Eugene's statement inconsistent with knowing that everyone was the same level at the start of the comic, and that Roy hasn't had any opportunity to get ahead of the others. I'm trying to resolve that inconsistency, is all.
I rather doubt Eugene would use Roy's party against him with wording such as you describe; he's never evinced any interest in their capabilities or activities before, but for an incomprehensible prophecy regarding Haley's nat 20.
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2012-05-04, 02:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Oh, you're right. Thanks for reminding me.
As someone else pointed out, Eugene probably does not take the absurd view that Julia is actually currently more powerful than Roy. He simply thinks she has a better shot of growing up to the point where she is able to defeat Xykon, and he points out one (insignificant) advantage that his daughter would have had over Roy.
Eugene's assertion is that Roy is an ineffective leader (and not specifically of the Order - I interpreted his statement to mean "of the entire side of Good"). An assertion is not an argument at all. His evidence is that Roy is "the highest-level Good" character, which I discuss below.
I'm reading that phrase as "with preeminent power comes preeminent blame," because Eugene's obvious implication is that Roy bears more responsibility for the fall of Azure City than any single other individual.
Also, when it comes to taking down Xykon, what matters more, the formal status of leading the party or raw power? I'd argue the latter, although I don't suppose the answer is clear-cut enough to be provable. But it doesn't matter what you or me think the answer is, because the supporting evidence Eugene gives for his assertion that Roy "led" the battle is no more and no less than the following: "You were the highest level Good character on the field, and a PC to boot. It was your fight to lose." Eugene says nothing about Roy heading the party. I still don't understand why you're arguing that a marginally plausible implicit statement (that Eugene is blaming Roy because he led the party) is more important than an explicit statement (that Eugene is blaming Roy because he was "the highest level Good character on the field"). Barring extraordinary circumstances, empirically explicit statements are always better evidence than debatable implicit statements.
Sample retort: "Dad, you have no idea what you're talking about. I wasn't even the highest level Good character on the field. If you want to blame me for losing to a sorcerer - what, eight levels higher than me? - fine, but don't pull made-up crap out of your rectum to try and satisfy your compulsive need to blame me for everything."
I'm sure Roy could come up with something wittier on the spot; he usually does. But the point is, he can effectively retort, and Eugene knows it, presumably having an Einstein-esque Intelligence of around 20.
That's true. Point conceded.
Why are we assuming that Roy was always at exactly the same level as the rest of the Order? As far as I know, there's no good reason for making that assumption.
It's also possible that Roy got enough XP to level beyond the rest of the party from defeating Miko and dozens of ninjas. That's gotta be a lot more XP than the five Order members would have gotten from defeating three members of the Linear Guild.Last edited by Emanick; 2012-05-04 at 02:54 PM.
Number of Character Appearances VII - To Absent Friends
Currently playing a level 20 aasimar necromancer named Zebulun Salathiel and a level 9 goliath diviner named Lo-Kag.
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2012-05-04, 03:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
I think I need to clarify my position here:
Roy is higher level than 99.9% of the Good people on the field + Roy is already the leader of the remaining 0.1% by agreement = Roy is the leader of the Good side, whether or not the remaining 0.1% are Roy's level.
I should also reemphasize, I'm not really looking for a best explanation of this individual scene, I'm trying to create room to fit it into existing knowns, which is the next topic.
From this strip, where everyone gains a level but Belkar, who was "a little behind us" at the start of the comic.
This is true, and I hadn't thought about it. Not more than one, but one level is plausible, given the potential for off-panel encounters.
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2012-05-04, 04:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-05-04, 04:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Was Kubota's aristocrat-friendly prestige class based on an actual class?
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2012-05-04, 05:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
He didn't specify a name for the prestige class. So, to list one, you'd need to prove a negative. ("I assert that there is no other prestige class in all the D&D books and the imagination of Rich Burlew to which Kubota could have been referring!")
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II