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2013-06-06, 05:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
Well, yes, there is some evidence for this. But my point is that, if you can blame Shojo for these kinds of increased chaos, then it also makes him look like a net force for evil, not good. If, on the other hand, Shojo cannot be blamed for the bickering nobles left after his reign, then there is little evidence that he made his city, on balance, more chaotic than he found it. And if he actively tried to reign them in and keep the city politically stable, he could even, by Tarquin's warped standards, be lawful.
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2013-06-06, 05:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
One might imagine that worshiping Vecna strongly tends to lead towards evil alignment, for the reasons you cite. If you do not play the same game as the others, how exactly are you going to climb the ranks? A few might succeed through adventuring, but those must be peculiar oddballs. One might find a Neutral sect that emphasizes a particular non-evil aspect of Vecna over the others, however.
I owe Peelee 5 Quatloos. But I am going double or nothing that Durkon will be casting 8th level spells at the big finale.
I bet Goblin_Priest 5 quatloos that Xykon does not know RC has the phylactery at this point in the tale (#1139).
Using my Bardic skills I see the fate of Belkar...so close!
Using my Bardic skills I see the fate of goblinkind!
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2013-06-06, 05:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
I really hope someone with a forum account comissioned a Tarquin and Shojo crayon drawing. It must be seen and I know those are the two I'd have picked had I had the money.
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2013-06-06, 05:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
Vecna is a Neutral Evil god whose portfolio includes Magic, Secrets, Magical Secrets, and Magical Secrets That Will Allow Vecna to Kill All of the Other Gods and Rule Creation. In the World of Greyhawk, worship of Vecna is illegal almost everywhere,
evenespecially in the Empire of Iuz. I'm not sure that a True Neutral character can worship a God that isn't also True Neutral; you can't be a True Neutral cleric of a god that isn't True Neutral.
The goal of the washerwoman who joined the cult is to get personal power. The cult assigns her to spy on her neighbors in the hopes that they will get valuable blackmail material. Plus she's risking her life by being a member of the cell, since in most areas worship of Vecna is punishable by summary execution. I'd say that she should be considered Evil.Last edited by Sir_Leorik; 2013-06-06 at 05:44 PM.
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2013-06-06, 05:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
That is a totally plausible scenario. But my point is that, if keeping the nobles in check in order to protecte the city works out as a Good thing to do, it also counts as a net win for Team Law.
Trying to save the world by going behind the backs of Paladins, faking senility to free himself from fear of assassination and with it any obligation to pander to the nobles, these are very very clearly Chaotic Good acts.
In terms of approaches, the key difference is their respective general tendencies. Tarquin achieves his goals by using, upholding, and even strengthening the legal system and the rigidness of its enforcement. Shojo simply ignores the law whenever he sees fit, but it is always because he thinks it serves the greater good. Sure, Shojo turned out to be wrong that some of those actions were the best ones, but we don't penalize people for ineffectiveness.
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2013-06-06, 05:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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2013-06-06, 05:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2012
Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
The problem is that such a detection would only go so far. Detect Evil wouldn't have stopped Haley from swindling her fellow party members. It wouldn't have stopped Elan's thefts or prevented him from helping a known murderer from escaping from jail. It wouldn't have prevented Roy's fraud or abandoning a fellow party member to brigands. And it wouldn't have stopped Vaarsuvius from murdering Kubota simply to avoid a tedious trial. Good people can do evil things--sometimes very evil things. Conversely, an evil person might only ever commit minor evil acts. Also, just because a person is evil doesn't make them indiscriminately evil. For instance, a human may delight in torturing goblins, yet would never dream of harming a fellow human.
Would a society really want to choose a Good person who doesn't agree with the current government's policies and who actively works against it, over an Evil person who only commits evil against that society's enemies? Being Good doesn't mean a person will always do what you want, and being Evil doesn't mean a person will always be conspiring against you.
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2013-06-06, 05:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
Exactly. And while the worship of Vecna may be illegal, illegal does not make it inherently evil.
And I certainly agree that the woman in the example above is evil. I'm simply pointing out that it's not the inherent fact of worshipping him that makes him evil (and RAW allows this interpretation). It's her motivations and actions that make her evil.
Now, if a specific DM wants to say in their campaign that Vecna and his cult specifically do not allow worshippers to get away with sitting on the sidelines, I'd be fine with that if it was made clear upfront to any PC considering worship."That's a horrible idea! What time?"
T-Shirt given to me by a good friend.. "in fairness, I was unsupervised at the time".
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2013-06-06, 06:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
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New Marut Avatar by Linkele
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2013-06-06, 06:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
It does, but Shojo's attitude is the important factor here. It's not that he's using Chaotic means (deceiving the entire Sapphire Guard) to achieve Lawful ends; he's using Chaotic means to achieve Good ends, and a side effect is a decrease in Chaos in the political structure. His indifference to the increase in Law might not be a Chaotic aspect of his personality in and of itself, but it pales in comparison to the Chaotic means he uses.
As I mentioned earlier, there is nothing terribly altruistic about self-preservation. Shojo could be trying to save the world and remain in power out of a genuine and selfless concern for others' well-being. He could just as easily be trying to save his own skin, because he would obviously not survive the end of the world. Taken in isolation, these decisions don't tell us he's particularly moral.
But Tarquin's explicitly declared motive is also, after a fashion, 'for the greater good'- the reduction of violence and conflict and suffering across the continent- which means that if his policies don't actually have that effect, he can also use the "okay, so it didn't work out that well" defence. If, on the other hand, ostensibly good intentions are not enough, and you have to actually produce beneficial results, then that might send Tarquin straight to hell, but it's also not good news for Shojo.
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2013-06-06, 06:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
Shojo is not responsible for the fact that the nobles of Azure City bicker over politics, hire ninjas to assassinate their rivals or don't like Meat Loaf's music.* He is responsible for pretending to be senile for decades, not actively trying to rein in the nobles, lying to the secret order of Paladins he led, sending Miko off on missions to foreign countries unsupervised, or breaking an oath he swore to uphold.
Let me explain to you the difference between Lord Shojo's deceptions and Tarquin's deceptions, and you'll see why Shojo is Chaotic and Tarquin is Lawful. Shojo pretended to be senile for years in order to avoid assassination. However, everyone in Azure City acknowledged him as the rightful ruler, even scum like Daimyo Kubota. By acting in a senile manner Shojo was thus undermining his own authority.
Tarquin is officially the General of the Empress of Blood. If anyone asks, he'll insist that's all he is. If anyone asks the Empress of Blood, she'll probably eat them and then forget the question. What Tarquin is doing is concealing how much power he has; if anyone questions him, he'll say that the Empress ordered him to do it, and no one in their right mind will confront her (she's trying to level up and learn Arcane spells you know). Tarquin thus has more room to manuever and he avoids repeating the mistake he made early in his career. Plus he can always say that he's acting in the Empress' interests while she gorges herself. If he decides she's a liability or he needs to switch to a new patsy, he'll probably slowly poison her meals (and tell her that eating more is the best way to cure an upset tummy!) and when she's dead he'll blame the herdsmen who feed the cows, and then stage an improptu "coup" led by the patsy. General Tarquin and Minister Malack will withdraw, and two of the others take over. At the same time they will have replaced their currents patsies with new ones in the other two kingdoms and the game continues on schedule.
So why aren't their schemes identical? Because Shojo's plan demeans the role of Azure City's leader, cuts that leader off from his closest allies (since Shojo can't confide in them without passing on Mr. Scruffy's "wisdom") and sows confusion among the populace. Tarquin's scheme involves making a figurehead look like a tyrant. The fact that he chose a Red Dragon is probably because "Lord Tyranar the Bloody" was such a disappointment. His schemes make the central government more feared, make each of the three fiefs more feared and secure his position of power.
*Or it could be they don't like to eat too much meat loaf.Last edited by Sir_Leorik; 2013-06-06 at 06:10 PM.
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2013-06-06, 06:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
No, of course he wasn't literally popped out of his mother's womb Chaotic Good. I meant that the character was created that way, and that I then had him take the actions that I had him take because I had already determined his alignment. Or, that he came into adulthood already CG due to events in his childhood, and lived his life that way.
"Feudal warlords?" Huh, I didn't know that I had put any of those in the strip. Oh, wait, that's because I didn't. The nobles of Azure City have small personal defense forces. Each noble has maybe 20 samurai and 100 men-at-arms, at most, plus some casters and maybe ninjas if they lean that way. They use them for self-defense and messing with other nobles. There may be a few dozen nobles total. There are no armies to pillage the countryside, and your assertion that this was a likely outcome is pulled from thin air. There was no immediate danger, during Shojo's rule, of some sort of civil war where the nobles massed their armies against the crown. That is not how the civilization was structured.
This is not a treatise on alignment. This is a comic strip. The scenes you mentioned were there for entertainment purposes. A detailed accounting of the political dealings of a minor character who has been dead for 500 strips is the exact opposite of entertaining.
I have limited time and energy to create comics, I am not going to spend even one moment drawing scenes that only you seem to think are necessary. Everyone else seems to get it, and I can't imagine any way to make such things interesting or funny or relevant to anything.
I'm pretty sure the moral lesson of Shojo is already front and center. There is a difference between, "This story has a lesson about the consequences of your actions," and, "This story is a textbook for you to dissect about how to play a character of this alignment."
This is how this conversation has gone:
You: I insist that you justify this thing.
Me: OK, here's my justification.
You: That's not good enough.
Me: Um...OK.
You: And I feel these three points you made about the alignment system are wrong.
Me: OK, well, that's why you don't understand what I wrote. I don't think they are wrong, I think they are right, and I based my writing on them.
You: Why aren't you justifying it??
I don't know what to say at this point. You are doomed to be unsatisfied with my explanation, because my explanation relies largely on aspects of the alignment system that you reject. Of course it's not going to make sense to you. I guess I'll have to settle for the other 99.9999999% of my readers who understand what I was trying to do.
Then why aren't you doing so??? If you can fill in the blanks yourself, then fill in the blanks! Stop wasting my time demanding answers that you can deduce yourself.
No, because that is not my job. I'm not writing a sourcebook here. If you can't draw anything useful from Shojo's characterization, that's not my problem. This isn't, "The Amazing Adventures of Shojo," he's a minor character with a limited role in the narrative. I describe the broad strokes, anything else is beyond the scope of my work.Rich Burlew
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2013-06-06, 06:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
The rules are that a Cleric can't be True Neutral unless he worships a True Neutral deity; I'm trying to remember if this holds true for regular worshippers or not. If it doesn't then Vecna could have non-cleric worshippers who are True Neutral (though why they'd want to is another story...)
EDIT: Okay, I double checked my copy of the 3.5 PHB; technically a non-cleric can worship any deity they wish. The PHB notes that characters usually worship deities whose alignments are close to their own. So a True Neutral character can worship Vecna, but I don't think the character would remain Neutral for long.Last edited by Sir_Leorik; 2013-06-06 at 09:34 PM.
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2013-06-06, 06:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
Vecna is generally more interested in long term schemes with big payoffs than in quick schemes that have to be done last week, now hop to it! (That's Cyric's ball of wax.) Generally Vecna's cultists recruit people who can report secrets back to them; think of Varys' "little birds" from "Game of Thrones". Plus in certain editions of D&D deities like Vecna draw power from their worshippers; giving Vecna a bit of juice to power Citadel Cavitius or keep his link to the Hand and Eye of Vecna going is probably an Evil act.
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2013-06-06, 06:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
Actually, there's some supplementary material in "War and XPs" that gives us Azure City in the style of Greyhawk Gazeteer.
Trials make extensive use of divine magic, with most verdicts being made on the basis of divination results. In important cases, beings from the Upper Planes are summoned to serve as jurists.
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2013-06-06, 06:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
Evil actions are against the law, not evil thoughts or indeterminate past behavior. Presumably in a world where discerning alignment is possible, characters with a definite alignment got it by taking certain actions, but "did bad things at some point in the past, and I don't know what they were" isn't very strong grounds for "exile, jail, or otherwise tak[ing] care of [...] people."
The unlawfulness of activity that creates the potential to take evil actions is very rarely codified, unless there is a strong correlation between that behavior and the "evil" outcome (e.g. drunk driving).
I realize that's a somewhat modern/Western take on justice and morality, but "thoughtcrime is not a good basis for secular laws" is not a particularly new or localized idea.Last edited by rodneyAnonymous; 2013-06-06 at 06:39 PM.
I like semicolons; they make me feel smart.
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2013-06-06, 06:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2007
Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
One of the many annoying things about the D&D alignment system is that it does seem to set alignment at birth (possibly they are CG, maybe they just grow into it). Some characters may fall, others may be redeemed, but most muddle through with thier initial alignments.
Presumably Eric Greenhilt was either born lawful good or became such rather quickly. Maybe he was just granted a chance to reunite with his family (nuetral good would make as much sense for kids).
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2013-06-06, 06:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. A good noble might, in some circumstances, murder the lawful leader if s/he is convinced the alternative is destruction of the city at the hands of a goblin horde because the leader is unable to prevent it and someone else can. I would expect a Deva judging the case would have access to what actually would have happened in the alternative case, and could determine whether it really did result in the greatest good for the greatest number or was simply delusion.
I think the nobles of Azure City had a real reason to believe Hinjo was unqualified. Surely they knew him from birth and have been observing his career with great interest ? In the panel I showed, he asked for their support and they seem to have instead come to the conclusion that he was weak and ineffectual, no proper replacement for Shojo. And , let it be pointed out, Hinjo lived down to their expectations. He lost the war and the city, just as they anticipated.
Really? You think Soon handed over leadership of his paladin order to a habitual liar?
I think Soon would expect that any leader of a city lies from time to time. Tarquin is lawful and does so. Hinjo disguised himself to participate in a sting. The fact that the lying reached a point where the son actually flipped over from lawful to neutral to chaotic may or may not have happened when Soon was present. Recall also that Soon was an adventurer and may not have spent enough time with his son to realize how different they had become. Or maybe he knew full well what he was and handed over the city anyway because he trusted him more than anyone else in the city even so.
But, as I said, it's all speculation. The father may have been as lawful as Soon was, but absent backstory there's no way to know.
Respectfully,
Brian P."Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid."
-Valery Legasov in Chernobyl
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2013-06-06, 06:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
Within D&D, the alignment system brings with it certain mechanics. I would not claim that they are good or great mechanics, but, overall, most players seem to believe they add to the fun, rather than subtract.
Changing one's alignment is allowed, but, without some kind of oversight, could easily be used to game the system. Formalizing such alignment changing mechanics is arduous and would probably not add fun to the game. Because the formal mechanics do not exist, most players simply do not bother trying (and they probably would not try even if the mechanics existed).
One could play D&D without any of the alignment system. It would trivial to make the necessary changes, if desired.I owe Peelee 5 Quatloos. But I am going double or nothing that Durkon will be casting 8th level spells at the big finale.
I bet Goblin_Priest 5 quatloos that Xykon does not know RC has the phylactery at this point in the tale (#1139).
Using my Bardic skills I see the fate of Belkar...so close!
Using my Bardic skills I see the fate of goblinkind!
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2013-06-06, 06:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
Originally Posted by theNater
"The needs of the plot is greater than the needs of the NPCs". Ah, now I understand.
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2013-06-06, 06:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
Last edited by Porthos; 2013-06-06 at 06:56 PM.
Concluded: The Stick Awards II: Second Edition
Ongoing: OOTS by Page Count
Coming Soon: OOTS by Final Post Count II: The Post Counts Always Chart Twice
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No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style - Jhereg Proverb
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2013-06-06, 07:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
Anybody know when the Know Alignment (second level cleric spell, reversable to Mask Alignment (DM's choice to allow good clerics to reverse the spell*)) spell was removed from D&D? It was included in 1e, but isn't in d20srd.org, so I assume it was removed either in 2e or 3e, presumably to require an extreme aura.
I could see Belkar's (and Xykon and Redcloak if they showed without an army) evil aura being sufficient "probable cause" to have a large chunk of the police force sent to tail him wherever he goes.
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2013-06-06, 07:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
So how many house rules are you proposing here? A homebrew spell that detects "legitimate target." You haven't addressed or even acknowledged multiple people pointing out that Detect Evil is easy to fool...but let's assume your homebrew spell is also, somehow, impossible to fool. You're proposing a city ruled by someone with unlimited access to this spell, who uses it to determine who can enter the city and who gets slaughtered for trying, correct? And everyone in the city's government knows that the ruler is not actually a Lawful Evil cleric of Vecna who is ecstatic about the excuse to kill anyone she wants to kill--somehow?
What you call "minor" looks huge and gaping to me. And there's the fact that "impossible to fool" is, bluntly, something you simply cannot have, even if you're fine with pushing your "4th level at most" all the way to epic; there's always a bigger spell.
Annndd I do believe that's the sound of us going to the wrong side of the no-Morally-Justified-threads rule, or the real-world politics rule, or both. Sorry, pendell; I can't address this here.Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2013-06-06, 07:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
That is not something that every "good" person agrees with, anyway. Also an evil person may think so. The individual-group axis does not align with the law-chaos axis either.
Last edited by rodneyAnonymous; 2013-06-06 at 07:15 PM.
I like semicolons; they make me feel smart.
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2013-06-06, 07:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
And I'm sure their withdrawing of their support (and all of their troops) from the active defense of the city had nothing to do with the city falling, of course.
I would also point out that if a certain paladin had been delayed by even twelve seconds, the city wouldn't have fallen.
Mustn't overlook that minor fact.Last edited by Porthos; 2013-06-06 at 07:28 PM.
Concluded: The Stick Awards II: Second Edition
Ongoing: OOTS by Page Count
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No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style - Jhereg Proverb
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2013-06-06, 07:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
This only seems to hold true when you conflate chaos with evil. Would the death of Lord Shojo have had the same net increase in evil (not chaos) had an epic sorcerer and his cleric side-kick not been knocking on the gates of Azure City with an army of goblins at their back?
If we're going to compare and contrast characters, then let's start with two Lawful Evil characters (both confirmed as such by WoG): Tarquin and Kubota.
Tarquin seeks to solidify his power base in the Western Continent by creating kingdoms of law - where he controls the laws. The people oppressed by these laws often rise up and overthrow these kingdoms, which is why he's only a general, not king, emperor or democratically elected president for life; while the peasants kill the figurehead, he makes good his escape. Tarquin sends death squads to kill his enemies and warps his harsh legal system to work to his benefit (he doesn't just throw the bounty hunters into the arena/dungeon, he makes evidence disappear so that the bounty hunters are found guilty - and then thrown into the arena for his entertainment).
Tarquin believes that procedure is important, which is why he smiles when Elan announces that a "climatic duel is the proper procedure for dramatically defeating corrupt tyrants!" ("On a rooftop, no less. Exquisite.") Also, it's immediately after he says "Procedure is important, Elan."
Kubota lacks Tarquin's power base, and thus has to work on a lower level as one noble among many. But like Tarquin, he also sends death squads to kill his enemies, and seeks to twist the legal system to work in his favor. When captured by Elan, Kubota is happy to submit himself to the legal process, sure that he has manipulated the situation enough that the law will be unable to convict him (V disintegrating him without trial was undoubtedly a Chaotic act, one that V would have been punished for if Elan had not covered for him; although Hinjo asks Lien to go down and investigate, it's not (yet) revealed if Kubota's armor (the only remaining evidence, blown overboard by V's Gust of Wind) is ever recovered and the truth revealed).
Now, to thrust Shojo into the mix:
Someone (likely Kubota) attempted to assassinate Shojo for an unpopular law he had passed (how could you not like Meat Loaf Day? It's delicious!). I assume the poor were given free meat loaf once per week, which was funded by the nobles - which would make it popular with the people, but not with the ruling class. It's also a rather unusual solution to feeding those below the poverty line, which may be an indication of Shojo's Chaotic alignment (I could be completely wrong and Meat Loaf day could be a government-enforced meal choice, a national holiday celebrating the dish, or a recognition of Shojo's love for the song "I'd Do Anything For Love - But I Won't Do That"; but this is the explanation which - to me, at least - most easily reconciles with the other actions we've seen Shojo take). However, rather than launch an official investigation into the assassination attempt or set up a sting operation (ala Hinjo), Shojo decided to fake senility in order to confuse his enemies to the source of the laws that he continued to pass (again, I'm assuming the unpopular laws are normally only unpopular with the nobles; poor commoners generally have better things to spend their gold on than regicide). This chaotic action (in that it disregarded due process, as would be laid out in the law) allowed Shojo to continue to pass laws which kept the citizens of Azure City happy, well-fed on free meat loaf, and not fighting for their lives in unnecessary death matches for the entertainment of their "betters".
Shojo also disregarded due process when he entered into an agreement with Eugene to subvert the courts of Azure City; as Haley realizes when the Order is found "not guilty by reason of it having been necessary at the time"; the judgement probably would have been "guilty" - because they ACTUALLY did weaken the fabric of the universe; but with reduced punishment due to it having been necessary to stop Xykon.
The senility, the lies, the subversion or outright ignoring of due process are all Chaotic actions. That they were done with both the intention to AND the effect of helping others is why they are Good ("Everything I did, I did for my people.")
Now, had Kubota seized power from Hinjo, he would likely have made the same mistakes as young Tarquin, and discovered that his newly-won empire was harder to hold on to than to win - after all, it's much harder to be the single point of focus for a couple of dozen ambitious nobles than it is to be one of the nobles.
NB: TheGiant has already weighed in on this topic since I started writing this reply, but I'll post it anyway. I've italicized the parts that are me doing as he suggested:
Originally Posted by TheGiant
EDIT: I no grammar good.
EDIT 2: Pointing out how unusual Meatloaf Day is, as a law - to the point of being a Chaotic Law, if one could imagine such a thing. Also, that my definition of what Meat Loaf Day actually consists of is entirely my own creation and (as far as I am aware) has no canonical evidence to back it up; much like actual Meat Loaf, no-one knows what's really in it.Last edited by NZNinja; 2013-06-06 at 10:51 PM.
There are no mistakes, because there are no rules. NONE. No, not even that one.
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2013-06-06, 07:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
Being evil is not a crime in our world, because we live in a society that's structured on that type of law. But it's far from the only type of law available.
Side note: the assumption that 'law' is something to be enforced by the state is another of those very modern ideas that may be blinkering us. Before the invention of the telegraph, 'law' was enforced at local levels; and before the state was rich enough to afford professional police and prisons, it was often doled out by very random authorities indeed - local aristocrats, family heads, scholars, the church - without regard to any formal authority delegated to them by anyone. All it took was a significant faction of people who respected you enough to let you sort out certain kinds of messes.
(Think of 'The Godfather', dispensing favours and hearing petitions. It's easy for us to think of this as a sort of 'shadow' equivalent of the state enforcing its laws, but the truth is almost exactly the opposite - it's a much more ancient system that the state has mostly replaced, at least in the first world.)
However, that train of thought leads us into (basically) medieval feudalism. So let's assume that we are talking about a centralised state, with taxation high enough (and well enough collected) to support a centralised structure with police, courts, prisons, and all the other paraphernalia of justice that we've seen in more lawful places in OOTS.
Then the accusation of 'being evil' needs to be treated like a criminal charge. There needs to be a formal hearing, the charge is read out, tested in court, arguments heard (there may be some mitigating reason, it may be a false positive (as caused by Roy's carrying Xykon's crown), or the suspect may have radiated evil earlier but doesn't now - whatever), and sentence passed.
What would be an appropriate sentence?
'Death' seems excessive, if 'evil' may mean something as low-key as a shopkeeper who consistently short-changes her customers. Moreover, death means that the suspect has no possibility to repent and atone, so it's actually counter-productive to the cosmic balance - in the long run, it increases the number of people who end up on the lower planes. (As a DM, I would certainly rule that someone who routinely kills evil people for no other reason than their alignment, is themself evil, for precisely this reason - they're not just killing, they're condemning them to eternal torment.)
'Indefinite imprisonment' (until they no longer ping as 'evil') is both expensive and inhumane. If you set up your prisons to rehabilitate the Evil, they will be more humane, but extremely expensive, and there is still every possibility that many inmates will never be released. Even 'good' citizens might start to balk at the sheer expense of keeping 'evil' people in such conditions permanently.
'Exile' is problematic. If there is a country out there that welcomes 'evil' people, then surely the last thing we want is to keep sending it able-bodied people who (a) know our country well, and (b) have a grudge against it? Alternatively, if we ourselves go to the expense of maintaining a large penal colony, it's only a matter of time before it grows into an independent nation governed by the descendents of our convicts (who are themselves innocent), and at that point we have to normalise relations and stop sending our refuse there.
So what does that leave?
One possibility is reduced freedoms (the evil person must report to the police every week, not allowed in certain places, not allowed to associate with other evil people, sign contracts or get married or whatever without official permission, etc.). This can be done, but it's a huge amount of work to enforce. And if the fraction of evil people in the population is at all signficant - anything above about 1% - it's a recipe for ghettos and whole sub-communities of evil people who will eventually break out and terrorise those around them.
Another would be fines - basically, extra taxes for evil people. This is entirely possible, and it'd probably be my personal recommendation if I were asked for one. Of course it carries its own problems - the idea that you could buy your way out of wrongdoing is a dangerous one to plant, plus evil people aren't known for their open attitude to paying taxes - but I think these problems are relatively manageable."None of us likes to be hated, none of us likes to be shunned. A natural result of these conditions is, that we consciously or unconsciously pay more attention to tuning our opinions to our neighbor’s pitch and preserving his approval than we do to examining the opinions searchingly and seeing to it that they are right and sound." - Mark Twain
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2013-06-06, 07:41 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2004
Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
Actually, while I still can't address the general argument for utilitarianism, I realized I do have a response to certain of your specific claims. Or rather--someone else does.
I think the nobles of Azure City had a real reason to believe Hinjo was unqualified. Surely they knew him from birth and have been observing his career with great interest ? In the panel I showed, he asked for their support and they seem to have instead come to the conclusion that he was weak and ineffectual, no proper replacement for Shojo.
And , let it be pointed out, Hinjo lived down to their expectations. He lost the war and the city, just as they anticipated.
Speculation. We don't know whether the sonwas a habitual liar or not. If he was, he may have developed that method of dealing with aristocracy after Soon passed away. Or he may have concealed it quite carefully from Soon. Detect Evil doesn't tell you whether a person is chaotic or not, and not every chaotic person lies.
I think Soon would expect that any leader of a city lies from time to time. Tarquin is lawful and does so. Hinjo disguised himself to participate in a sting. The fact that the lying reached a point where the son actually flipped over from lawful to neutral to chaotic may or may not have happened when Soon was present. Recall also that Soon was an adventurer and may not have spent enough time with his son to realize how different they had become. Or maybe he knew full well what he was and handed over the city anyway because he trusted him more than anyone else in the city even so.
But, as I said, it's all speculation. The father may have been as lawful as Soon was, but absent backstory there's no way to know.
Respectfully,
Brian P.Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2013-06-06, 07:46 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2012
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2013-06-06, 08:31 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2003
- Location
- Philadelphia, PA
- Gender
Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
People keep making assertions like this, and they don't have any real relevance. "Instability" does not mean "civil war." It means, "uncertainty." Uncertainty can be resolved by conflict, or it can be resolved by reform. This idea that all governmental Chaos leads directly to warfare, and all warfare is evil, so therefore Chaotic rulership is evil is ridiculous.
If you take away the external threat of Xykon, the most likely outcome of Shojo's rule is that he dies (whether from Miko or old age), and the more Lawful Hinjo takes over. He reforms the system and the nobles either fall in line or get crushed by his much larger army. The only reason Kubota takes the risky actions he takes is because Hinjo has virtually no army anymore, and Kubota has no ancestral holdings to lose. It is a highly unusual vulnerability on Hinjo's part that certainly could not have been predicted by Shojo.
Further, this idea that Shojo "should have known" that his actions would lead to open rebellion is silly. They didn't. They led to 50+ years of prosperity, peppered with a few instances of violence against him. Which I'm sure he would argue was his risk to take. This is the whole point behind his final lines: He has no regrets over his actions, because he did it all for his people at the possible expense of his own safety or liberty should his transgressions be discovered.
I can't really wrap my head against this idea that his reign wasn't Good because the things he did could have lead to other people performing Evil acts at some vague future point, even though it didn't. The only way his rule would be non-Good is if there was no other outcome except for there to be an increase in Evil, AND he knew it. And we know that isn't the case because that's not what happened. Compare Tarquin, who knows that his rule will bring about more Evil the longer it continues because he and his evil cronies will be the ones committing it.
Alignment is not determined by what could have happened but didn't, or by what other people with free will may or may not choose to do in response. The fact that the nobles "could" have rebelled is not nearly as important as the fact that they did NOT rebel.Rich Burlew
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