How to Rend Fiends and Immolate People: A Guide to Sorcery

[SharkForce]

I get that you're upset but it dictates you protect the creature when you cast the spell. Read the first sentence again.

Whether or not you or I like the ruling (I don't) is of no consequence; when you write a guide you stick to the rules, not what you want the rules to be. Heck I wrote an entirely new sorcerer guide because of how much errata and JC tweets changed / clarified. My first guide assumed it worked with Stinking Cloud, and Web rating it very highly. Since Evil Anagram can update his in realtime he should be honest with players instead of misleading them.

Does it make careful spell a steaming pile of crap? Yep. And if you go into standard play or AL the DM is forced to consult the rules they will make the same ruling. Guides are for standard play and the assumption you adhere to the rules.


You don't write guides based on homebrew right?

it doesn't say you protect them only on the turn it was cast. it just says you protect them. it said that 3 years ago. it still says it now. and it will continue to say that until errata is issued. they can say whatever they like about what they wanted it to say. if they want to change something, they have the power to do it, and they haven't done it. if that tweet said "it was supposed to be on the turn of casting only, and we're going to issue errata on that next time errata comes out", then fine, but just a vague "oh, here's how we intended it", well, i don't care how you intended it. how you intended it was for it to be a steaming pile of suck, and i'm sure as hell not going to give weight to your intentions to make something useless, whether you happen to have been around when that ability was designed or not.

when they issue errata, *then* it is required for AL play.

[tieren]

1. Thank you for the guide, overall I find it very useful.

2. I am playing a Sea Sorcerer in a STK campaign.

As a sea sorcerer I don't have the good AC of a draconic sorcerer, and moreover the particular character concept I have is very good mentally and poor physically, so my Dex and Str are below average, therefore my AC is poor (literally a 10).

Also as a sea sorcerer I have a class feature that pushes me towards cold and lightning damage types, which at my current level (2) means mostly cold. Cold spells seem to have a shorter range than similar fire spells.

Since I don't want to get hit because of my poor AC staying far away from the combat seems desirable, and I think is a specialty I'd like to build the character around a bit.

Therefore I have decided my level 3 metamagics are going to be Distant and Quicken. At level 4 I am also going to take spell sniper for absurd range abuse.

Now I get in a dungeon crawl it may not come up much, but I am figuring we are going to be fighting giants and big things in big open areas a good bit in this campaign and I want to do it from as far away as possible.

I'll miss out on the twin hyjinx (at least until level 10 when I pick my next metamagic) but I think it fits my character well and is something I'll enjoy.

Also with my class features will allow some neat effects (like lightning lure someone 60 feet away and pull them 25 feet towards my melee friends)

[samcifer]

it doesn't say you protect them only on the turn it was cast. it just says you protect them. it said that 3 years ago. it still says it now. and it will continue to say that until errata is issued. they can say whatever they like about what they wanted it to say. if they want to change something, they have the power to do it, and they haven't done it. if that tweet said "it was supposed to be on the turn of casting only, and we're going to issue errata on that next time errata comes out", then fine, but just a vague "oh, here's how we intended it", well, i don't care how you intended it. how you intended it was for it to be a steaming pile of suck, and i'm sure as hell not going to give weight to your intentions to make something useless, whether you happen to have been around when that ability was designed or not.

when they issue errata, *then* it is required for AL play.

Just let the DM decide. That's how I'd resolve the issue.

[werescythe]

Hello, my name is Werescythe and I was hoping that someone could offer some ideas/suggestions for a character I am working on.

I am working on creating a Yuan-ti Shadow Sorcerer character for my brother's campaign. I would prefer to avoid multi-classing if possible. Does anyone who has played a shadow sorcerer (or has considered the idea) have any suggestions on what types of spells I should use?

The reason I am asking is because this guide (while very helpful) seems to aim a bit more toward Draconic Sorcerers/Melee Sorcerers (which I could see a shadow sorcerer being possibly) but not so much on shadow sorcery. So any suggestions would be very helpful.

Thank you.

[X3r4ph]

Hello, my name is Werescythe and I was hoping that someone could offer some ideas/suggestions for a character I am working on.

I am working on creating a Yuan-ti Shadow Sorcerer character for my brother's campaign. I would prefer to avoid multi-classing if possible. Does anyone who has played a shadow sorcerer (or has considered the idea) have any suggestions on what types of spells I should use?

The reason I am asking is because this guide (while very helpful) seems to aim a bit more toward Draconic Sorcerers/Melee Sorcerers (which I could see a shadow sorcerer being possibly) but not so much on shadow sorcery. So any suggestions would be very helpful.

Thank you.

Shadow Sorcerer basically gets Heighten metamagic for free. So, I would suggest anything that has a save or suck effect.
Subtle Spell and Quicken are great start of metamagic picks. At 10 take Twin.

But. Since you are using UA, and talk about going melee, why not the Stone Sorcerer? It's pretty kick ass. After your level 6 ability you could go 14 Rogue for some serious Sneak Attack action in other people's turn. Anyways. Stone Sorcerer is also great with a little Hexblade or Paladin.

[werescythe]

Shadow Sorcerer basically gets Heighten metamagic for free. So, I would suggest anything that has a save or suck effect.
Subtle Spell and Quicken are great start of metamagic picks. At 10 take Twin.

But. Since you are using UA, and talk about going melee, why not the Stone Sorcerer? It's pretty kick ass. After your level 6 ability you could go 14 Rogue for some serious Sneak Attack action in other people's turn. Anyways. Stone Sorcerer is also great with a little Hexblade or Paladin.

You'll have to forgive me, I'm not too familiar with the term save or suck. lol.

As for the UA, the reason I am going with Shadow Sorcery is kind of due to a theme/story idea I had for the character and the world my brother is using for his campaign.

Any suggestions on what would be good spells to pick? Also I was thinking of taking Actor as my first feat as that would put my Charisma to 18(+4) while also allowing me to imitate voices (great from roleplaying with the Darkness ability), what do you think?

[X3r4ph]

You'll have to forgive me, I'm not too familiar with the term save or suck. lol.

As for the UA, the reason I am going with Shadow Sorcery is kind of due to a theme/story idea I had for the character and the world my brother is using for his campaign.

Any suggestions on what would be good spells to pick? Also I was thinking of taking Actor as my first feat as that would put my Charisma to 18(+4) while also allowing me to imitate voices (great from roleplaying with the Darkness ability), what do you think?

A save or suck spell is a spell that has a really nasty effect if the target doesn't scceed it's save. Like Hold Person. Really nasty spell.

As for feats I wouldn't take anything else than Ability Increases until Charisma is 20. If you have half scores, like a 15, add the other point in Constitution.
Once Charisma is maxed, pick Resilient: Constitution. Getting the most out of your Concentration check is paramount.

[EvilAnagram]

Hello, my name is Werescythe and I was hoping that someone could offer some ideas/suggestions for a character I am working on.

I am working on creating a Yuan-ti Shadow Sorcerer character for my brother's campaign. I would prefer to avoid multi-classing if possible. Does anyone who has played a shadow sorcerer (or has considered the idea) have any suggestions on what types of spells I should use?

The reason I am asking is because this guide (while very helpful) seems to aim a bit more toward Draconic Sorcerers/Melee Sorcerers (which I could see a shadow sorcerer being possibly) but not so much on shadow sorcery. So any suggestions would be very helpful.

Thank you.

As X3r4ph suggested, the save-or-suck is perfect for the Shadow Sorcerer.

To explain more fully, a save-or-suck is a spell that forces its target to make a save against a harmful effect. These spells include Hypnotic Pattern, Hold Person, Slow, and Banishment. I would also throw in Sleet Storm as a way to force some particularly nasty Concentration saves against enemy spellcasters.

[werescythe]

As X3r4ph suggested, the save-or-suck is perfect for the Shadow Sorcerer.

To explain more fully, a save-or-suck is a spell that forces its target to male a save against a harmful effect. These spells include Hypnotic Pattern, Hold Person, Slow, and Banishment. I would also throw in Sleet Storm as a way to force some particularly nasty Concentration saves against enemy spellcasters.

So I was just wondering in the case that another character can't see in the Darkness "spell" cast my the shadow sorcerer do they have a disadvantages on saves when it comes to sight. Like if I were to cast a save-or-suck spell on an enemy in darkness to they have a disadvantage on the save?

Just curious.

[EvilAnagram]

So I was just wondering in the case that another character can't see in the Darkness "spell" cast my the shadow sorcerer do they have a disadvantages on saves when it comes to sight. Like if I were to cast a save-or-suck spell on an enemy in darkness to they have a disadvantage on the save?

Just curious.

Not unless you convince your DM. It's not in the rules as written.

[Grog Logs]

How useful would multiclassing into Bard and using Twinned Spell with Vicious Mockery be? You'd have two creatures with Disadvantage on their first attack.

Maybe not the most powerful, but you could do it throughout the day if you cannibalized your spell slots with Flexible Casting.

If you went up to Lore Bard 5, you could add in some additional shut down to enemy attacks with Cutting Words that replenish on short rests.

Would this ideas work better as a Sorcerer multiclassing into Bard or a Bard dipping into Sorcerer (only three levels needed in Sorc if cannibalized your spell slots heavily)?

[EvilAnagram]

How useful would multiclassing into Bard and using Twinned Spell with Vicious Mockery be? You'd have two creatures with Disadvantage on their first attack.

Maybe not the most powerful, but you could do it throughout the day if you cannibalized your spell slots with Flexible Casting.

If you went up to Lore Bard 5, you could add in some additional shut down to enemy attacks with Cutting Words that replenish on short rests.

Would this ideas work better as a Sorcerer multiclassing into Bard or a Bard dipping into Sorcerer (only three levels needed in Sorc if cannibalized your spell slots heavily)?

The problem with this strategy is that you're essentially eating your spell slots to cast cantrips a bit more effectively. The further you go into Bard, the less often you'll use your Sorcery Points. That's less effective than just casting Hypnotic Pattern, which is the same save.

A dip into Bard is pretty effective because Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Dissonant Whispers, and Vicious Mockery are amazing with Twin, but I can't recommend more than a dip because Sorcery Points are too precious.

[Grog Logs]

...less effective than just casting Hypnotic Pattern, which is the same save...A dip into Bard is pretty effective...but I can't recommend more than a dip because Sorcery Points are too precious.

That makes a lot of sense. Thank you

[werescythe]

Not unless you convince your DM. It's not in the rules as written.

I talked with my GM about this and he said that in his opinion that unless the character is able to see while they are in darkness they are considered blinded.

So I guess it would depend upon the GM (I'm just lucky in my case).

[Gydian]

I love this guide. I used it when creating my first sorcerer and still refer to it. do you think you could update the archetypes to Xanathar's by December? I know I need to change my drag-queen name to Divine now, so I can pick which bonus spell I get.

[EvilAnagram]

I love this guide. I used it when creating my first sorcerer and still refer to it. do you think you could update the archetypes to Xanathar's by December? I know I need to change my drag-queen name to Divine now, so I can pick which bonus spell I get.

I will definitely be updating by then.

[Back Stabbath]

Any advice on multiclassing with Bard beyond dipping for BI and Dissonant Whispers + a couple other useful spells?

I was thinking of doing some kind of gish build with Dragon Sorcerer (at the start, for RP reasons), dipping into Hexblade, and then going Bard of the Sword college. Does this sound viable or does it sound like a trainwreck?

[EvilAnagram]

Any advice on multiclassing with Bard beyond dipping for BI and Dissonant Whispers + a couple other useful spells?

I was thinking of doing some kind of gish build with Dragon Sorcerer (at the start, for RP reasons), dipping into Hexblade, and then going Bard of the Sword college. Does this sound viable or does it sound like a trainwreck?

The big problem you're going to run into with this build is that you won't get second-level spells until level 6, and you won't get an extra attack until ~level 9 (I don't have Xanathar's yet). So, you're basically lagging behind in everything but cantrips. At level 9 you'll be alright, but until then it might be rough.

[Back Stabbath]

The big problem you're going to run into with this build is that you won't get second-level spells until level 6, and you won't get an extra attack until ~level 9 (I don't have Xanathar's yet). So, you're basically lagging behind in everything but cantrips. At level 9 you'll be alright, but until then it might be rough.

What would an ideal sorcerer/bard multiclass look like? In general, not just for gishing

[EvilAnagram]

What would an ideal sorcerer/bard multiclass look like? In general, not just for gishing

Ideally, because they're both full casters, you're going to dip into one and spend the rest of your time in the other. Generally, take the first level in Sorcerer for the Con save and bloodline features, then either go Bard the rest of the way or take three levels in Bard before heading back to Sorcerer for your remaining levels.

The three levels in Bard give you either Lore goodies or medium armor and a shield with Valor, plus skills, expertise, and Bardic Inspiration. Those can mesh very well with a Sorcerer, especially a disabling/buffing build.

The only reason to stick around with Sorcerer for more than a one-level dip (when you're primarily something else) is metamagic, and it's hard to justify putting off spell progression for two more levels to use metamagic once or twice a day the rest of your career. Maybe if you really want Heighten and don't mind only using it twice a day it's for you.

Edit: Also, that's a killer screen name.

[Back Stabbath]

Ideally, because they're both full casters, you're going to dip into one and spend the rest of your time in the other. Generally, take the first level in Sorcerer for the Con save and bloodline features, then either go Bard the rest of the way or take three levels in Bard before heading back to Sorcerer for your remaining levels.

The three levels in Bard give you either Lore goodies or medium armor and a shield with Valor, plus skills, expertise, and Bardic Inspiration. Those can mesh very well with a Sorcerer, especially a disabling/buffing build.

The only reason to stick around with Sorcerer for more than a one-level dip (when you're primarily something else) is metamagic, and it's hard to justify putting off spell progression for two more levels to use metamagic once or twice a day the rest of your career. Maybe if you really want Heighten and don't mind only using it twice a day it's for you.

Edit: Also, that's a killer screen name.

Thanks!! Appreciate the help

[Raif]

First, wanted to thank you for the thread. It was immensely helpful as a first time player who chose sorcerer. Just looking for some advice.

I'm currently playing a Phoenix Sorcerer multi-classed into Hexblade Warlock with a 5/2 split in Princes of the Apocalypse (no spoilers please!). I just realized that I will be missing out on the level 14 feature and level 8 spells since my DM said it will go to level 15 with how he is running the adventure. Is missing out on those 2 features really that big a deal? I multiclassed in general because it fit the character and truly felt a little underpowered and not so useful due to the phoenix sorcerer's limitation of the once per day features.

What is the general "best" time to multiclass into the "sorlock" build? Right away, as in 1 level sorcerer then 2 into warlock then back into sorcerer?

Also last but not least, spell help! I'm working on a final spell list for progression and have come up with the following for a level 15 build (sorcerer 13/warlock 2):

Sorcerer
1st - shield, absorb elements
2nd - hold person, misty step
3rd - haste, fireball, counterspell, dispell magic
4th - banishment, dimension door, greater invisibility, sickening radiance
5th - animate objects, synaptic static
6th - mental prison, sunbeam
7th - crown of stars or reverse gravity


Warlock
1st - protection from evil and good, hex, comprehend languages

Problem is I have 4 too many spells from sorcerer. I'm going for a buff/debuff type and already have quickened spell and twinned spell. I'm good on damage with Eldritch Blast with Hex and the Hexblade Curse as well. Party composition is Path of the Storm Primal Barbarian, Lore Bard, Grave Cleric, Mercers Gunslinger, Fighter. .

Any advice on what to drop? Having a hard time letting go of 3 of them. This is of course if my DM lets me use the spells from Xanthar's, though he did let me use Hexblade. If I can't use Xanthar's spells this becomes a lot easier.

[Byke]

What is the general "best" time to multiclass into the "sorlock" build? Right away, as in 1 level sorcerer then 2 into warlock then back into sorcerer?

It really comes down to personal preference. I have been playing a lot of Sorclock recently and my path is to take 3 levels of sorcerer first for 2nd level spells and MM and then 2 levels of Warlock. Warlock really doesn't come online until 5th when you get 2 EBs.

Also last but not least, spell help! I'm working on a final spell list for progression and have come up with the following for a level 15 build (sorcerer 13/warlock 2):

Sorcerer
1st - shield, absorb elements
2nd - hold person, misty step
3rd - haste, fireball, counterspell, dispell magic
4th - banishment, dimension door, greater invisibility, sickening radiance
5th - animate objects, synaptic static
6th - mental prison, sunbeam
7th - crown of stars or reverse gravity


Warlock
1st - protection from evil and good, hex, comprehend languages

Any advice on what to drop? Having a hard time letting go of 3 of them. This is of course if my DM lets me use the spells from Xanthar's, though he did let me use Hexblade. If I can't use Xanthar's spells this becomes a lot easier.

Your spell selection is solid (I wish Sorcs got 4 extra spells known).The issue I see is you have to many concentration spells. Things I would change

1st - Armor of Agyth (Non-conc + HP), Hex, Shield

Sorcerer
1st - Absorb Elements
2nd - Misty Step
3rd - Haste, Fireball, Counterspell, Dispel Magic
4th - Banishment, Dimension Door, Greater Invisibility,
5th - Animate Objects, Synaptic Static
6th - Mental Prison (Sunbeam may be better as you are Pheonix)
7th - Reverse Gravity (You don't have a problem with damage)

Haste really depends on you party comp and MM selection. If you are running a melee centric party and Twin then it may be worth it. If not I would swap it out for Polymorph (which can be used offensively, defensively and for utility)

Misty Step and Dimension Door you have two mobility spells. I get that one is a bonus action vs action, but I would only pick one.

[Raif]

It really comes down to personal preference. I have been playing a lot of Sorclock recently and my path is to take 3 levels of sorcerer first for 2nd level spells and MM and then 2 levels of Warlock. Warlock really doesn't come online until 5th when you get 2 EBs.



Your spell selection is solid (I wish Sorcs got 4 extra spells known).The issue I see is you have to many concentration spells. Things I would change

1st - Armor of Agyth (Non-conc + HP), Hex, Shield

Sorcerer
1st - Absorb Elements
2nd - Misty Step
3rd - Haste, Fireball, Counterspell, Dispel Magic
4th - Banishment, Dimension Door, Greater Invisibility,
5th - Animate Objects, Synaptic Static
6th - Mental Prison (Sunbeam may be better as you are Pheonix)
7th - Reverse Gravity (You don't have a problem with damage)

Haste really depends on you party comp and MM selection. If you are running a melee centric party and Twin then it may be worth it. If not I would swap it out for Polymorph (which can be used offensively, defensively and for utility)

Misty Step and Dimension Door you have two mobility spells. I get that one is a bonus action vs action, but I would only pick one.

Thanks for the input!

Haste is very good for my party. I've got a cleric/pally, fighter/pally, barbarian, and a gunslinger (variant fighter that uses guns but gets all the fighter stuff).

A few questions:

1. Does Warlock get shield in Xanthar's? I didn't see that they did..
2. Sickening Radiance - not a fan?
3. Sunbeam - I don't believe it gets affected by Phoenix sorcerer since it's not fire damage.
4. Hold Person - Why the drop? Too many concentration spells?

[Byke]

Thanks for the input!

Haste is very good for my party. I've got a cleric/pally, fighter/pally, barbarian, and a gunslinger (variant fighter that uses guns but gets all the fighter stuff).

A few questions:

1. Does Warlock get shield in Xanthar's? I didn't see that they did..
2. Sickening Radiance - not a fan?
3. Sunbeam - I don't believe it gets affected by Phoenix sorcerer since it's not fire damage.
4. Hold Person - Why the drop? Too many concentration spells?

1) 99.9% sure they do...but don't have the book in front of me
2) Sickening Radiance: Few reason i dislike it, Con save and 4th level already has to many good spells competing for those slots. It could have a niche spot on the list if your DM uses lots of cover or invisibility in his encounters. As is goes around corners, it could be used to flush enemies out. Just feels to situational for me to give it a spot on the list.
3) Then definitely Synaptic Static
4) Yes exactly that...concentration. If you want another control spell then I would choose Web.

You group seems to have little to no "utility" spells. I would definitely ditch one of the mobility spells and snag Polymorph. Aside from the twin T-Rex shenanigans. It was instrumental to my group surviving a TPK last game.

**Last game my group was crossing a section ocean to get to our next objective, when we get attacked by a dragon turtle and our Barb/Fighter was pulled/grappled underwater. The Barb couldn't escape to save his life, but a twin Poly (giant shark) on the Rogue and Paladin saved the day (The bard poly'd himself as well). It just has to many application to pass up**

Our group has Barb/Fighter, Paladin/Hex, Monk/Rogue, Bard (Lore) and my Sorclock (Shadow/Hex)

***EDIT Thunder Step might be a decent replacement for MS and DD****

[Raif]

1) 99.9% sure they do...but don't have the book in front of me
2) Sickening Radiance: Few reason i dislike it, Con save and 4th level already has to many good spells competing for those slots. It could have a niche spot on the list if your DM uses lots of cover or invisibility in his encounters. As is goes around corners, it could be used to flush enemies out. Just feels to situational for me to give it a spot on the list.
3) Then definitely Synaptic Static
4) Yes exactly that...concentration. If you want another control spell then I would choose Web.

You group seems to have little to no "utility" spells. I would definitely ditch one of the mobility spells and snag Polymorph. Aside from the twin T-Rex shenanigans. It was instrumental to my group surviving a TPK last game.

**Last game my group was crossing a section ocean to get to our next objective, when we get attacked by a dragon turtle and our Barb/Fighter was pulled/grappled underwater. The Barb couldn't escape to save his life, but a twin Poly (giant shark) on the Rogue and Paladin saved the day (The bard poly'd himself as well). It just has to many application to pass up**

Our group has Barb/Fighter, Paladin/Hex, Monk/Rogue, Bard (Lore) and my Sorclock (Shadow/Hex)

***EDIT Thunder Step might be a decent replacement for MS and DD****

I do have a lore bard that has tons of utility (polymorph,counterspell,dispell magic, fear, slow, etc.) But poltymorph is definitely one id like to get. I can drop DD maybe in this case.

As i mentioned im running princes of the apocalypse(again, please no spoilsers) o lots of close quarter dungeons. Sickening radience might not be good then.

[Byke]

I do have a lore bard that has tons of utility (polymorph,counterspell,dispell magic, fear, slow, etc.) But poltymorph is definitely one id like to get. I can drop DD maybe in this case.

As i mentioned im running princes of the apocalypse(again, please no spoilsers) o lots of close quarter dungeons. Sickening radience might not be good then.

Never played Princes, but definitely come back and tell me how is worked out for you. I haven't had a chance to play with Sickening Radiance...I'm just going on gut feel.

[Raif]

Never played Princes, but definitely come back and tell me how is worked out for you. I haven't had a chance to play with Sickening Radiance...I'm just going on gut feel.

Will do.

I just checked regarding Warlocks and shield in Xanthar's and no, they don't get shield as a spell. I'll have to pick that up from sorcerer spell list and drop dimension door for it, so no polymorph unless I drop something else.

[samcifer]

Will do.

I just checked regarding Warlocks and shield in Xanthar's and no, they don't get shield as a spell. I'll have to pick that up from sorcerer spell list and drop dimension door for it, so no polymorph unless I drop something else.

Actually, Hexblades get shield, but yeah, only that Patron Pact gets it.

[Raif]

Actually, Hexblades get shield, but yeah, only that Patron Pact gets it.

totally forgot to check their expanded spell list. thanks!