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2019-04-25, 06:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2013
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Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL
Just when I thought we are safe from either extremely basic decks that don't interact like Token Druids nor insanely boring decks that take 40+ turns like control warrior, yet here we are again.
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2019-04-25, 08:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2006
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- Washington, D.C.
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Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL
What do you mean by "interactive"? I think of Interactivity in Hearthstone as "can disrupt my enemy's game plan with counterplay". So Token Druid would be interactive, you can remove their board and they can't burst you from hand with any empty board. Aggro/Midrange is usually interactive; they need to stick minions over multiple turns to kill you and you can interact with removal, healing, minion combat/taunt. Token Druids can be frustrating because if they stick one board for one turn, they can burst you for stupid damage, but you get at least a chance to stop their gameplan.
"Non-interactive" would be decks that are usually described as "solitaire", but are generally combo decks. Things like Mecha'thun Druid/Warlock or Exodia Mage, where their deck is mostly card draw and all they care is about surviving long enough to draw their entire combo and then they win.
And I agree, I hate Control Warrior when it's good and it's really good right now.
Love this brawl. It's good to see the unnerfed cards and historical decks. I remember them and remember how to play them, so it's a nice reminder of past Hearthstone.
One of the interesting decks from the Worlds competition is Killinallday's Nomi Priest. It runs the Miracle package (Auctioneer, Pyro, Acolyte, Northshire and a bunch of 0 cost spells) to draw through the deck by turn 9-10 and then drop Nomi three times (Nomi + Seance) to win. It's not an Elysiana deck, but it does make you go to Fatigue ;)
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2019-04-25, 10:00 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2012
Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL
The outrage around Token Druid is so hilarious to me. For more than a year, every time it was mentioned it was like "Token Druid sucks, Blizzard please it needs more support because it's mid-tier at best" and now that it has support it's just nothing but "OMG BLIZZARD THIS IS SO BROKEN WHY DID YOU SUPPORT THIS ARCHETYPE?"
On a similar vein, since Token Druid runs both Blessing of the Ancients and The Forest's Aid, it's interesting to see Twinspell be a good effect. So often the Keyword for an expansion is pretty bad or forgettable - how many things with Overkill are actually worth talking about? Or Inspire? There were a couple Recruit cards that were worthwhile but not many. Twinspell is actually super good, and I honestly hope it sticks around.
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2019-04-25, 10:05 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2008
Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL
Was the free pack of Rise of Shadows stacked deliberatly, or did I just get lucky with mine (at least based on density of rares, eipics and legendaries, I don't know if they are actually good cards themselves)?
"It doesn't matter how much you struggle or strive,
You'll never get out of life alive,
So please kill yourself and save this land,
And your last mission is to spread my command,"
Slightly adapted quote from X-Fusion, Please Kill Yourself
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2019-04-25, 10:36 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2004
Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL
The problem is that you're treating ThePlayerbase as one person.
Everyone who wanted to play Token Druid was unhappy it was weak; everyone who didn't want to play against it was happy it was weak. Now, everyone who wants to play Token Druid is happy that it's strong, and everyone who doesn't want to play against it is unhappy that it's strong. No inconsistency, nothing to find hilarious unless you find the fact that people in general are more likely to complain loudly than to volunteer that they're happy about something loudly to be amusing.Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2019-04-25, 10:50 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2012
Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL
I do find that amusing, at least on community sites like Reddit. Obviously the player base is disparate, but the community is kind of a voice of the people, for lack of a better term, and it will always find things to complain about. I find it much easier to point and laugh at most complaints, save the ones that are actually problematic for the health of the game.
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2019-04-25, 12:39 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2016
Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL
I get the hate for Control Warrior (no other Control deck even compares right now, and their plays feel extra oppressive because of it) but Token Druid? Token Druid isn't even that good, in the grand scheme. You just need to "tech" board clears into any deck you run.
It runs over heavy Aggro decks right now because they can't clear fast enough, but any midrange or Control deck worth its salt will run right over it. If my abominations of Hunter and Paladin decks can beat Token Druid, so can everyone else.
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2019-04-25, 01:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2010
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Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL
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2019-04-25, 01:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2008
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- Star Road, not Star Way
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Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL
That's... not quite the case. Token Druid has a lot of board reload: Wispering Woods, Archmage Vargoth into Landscaping, Keeper Stalladris with Power of the Wild or Mark of the Loa, Forest's Aid, and then there's Soul of the Forest to further reinforce that. According to HSreplay, Token Druid is favored against Bomb and Dragon Warrior, and is almost a coin flip against Control Warrior (Druid 48.27% to Warrior 51.72%) When those decks run Warpath, Brawl, and Dynomatic. Often times Druid wins because you can't answer their board turn after turn after turn.
Also according to HSreplay, Token Druid is unfavorable to Zoolock of all things, though I would attribute that one to most Zoolock decks also running Knife Juggler and Magic Carpet for repeatable answers.
That said, Naturalize HOF makes it vulnerable, as Hunter often wins with a Unleash + Scavenging Hyena to turn a wide board to a detriment, Tempo Rogue can make a giant Edwin.you know that I'm more than just a doll do you?-Geno
Add me on Steam!
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and current made by me.
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2019-04-25, 02:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
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- San Francisco
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Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL
Token druid loses to tempo. Their plays almost all involve them doing a bunch of stuff to put minions on the board and not reducing, preventing, or healing any damage. The decks that beat them are the ones, like tempo rogue and Zoo, that build up their own board while briefly keeping Druid down. You kill the first ~5 treants while dealing a little damage, and then swing face for 20 by the time they put out a board that is completely impossible to remove.
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2019-04-25, 02:34 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2016
Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL
^That.
You don't just use a board clear and sit on your hands the next turn, you clear while making sure your own minions stick. In short yeah, Token Druid wins if your deck has absolutely zero aggression, but they have literally nothing that lets them reload and deal damage the same time. They are utterly at the whim of their opponent's draw and how much tempo they have.
Yeah, if you get behind against Token Druid it's hard to retake the lead...but the same is true for Token Druid, Mech Hunter, Murloc Shaman, Big Shaman, Control Warrior, etc. etc. every other deck in the game right now since comeback mechanics are weak for everyone ATM.
I can believe Control/Bomb Warrior (because they're basically the same shell) lose to Token Druid a lot because they essentially spend their entire turn clearing most of the time until way, way late game.Last edited by Rynjin; 2019-04-25 at 02:36 PM.
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2019-04-25, 04:58 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2008
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Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL
I wish I could get the Control Warrior matches you guys complain about. Last time I played it was nothing but nonstop aggro - Tempo Rogue, Murloc Shaman, Zoolock, and the occasional Token Druid. Not very fun.
While objectively "non-interactive" is the wrong way to put it, I do think I can explain why aggro decks can feel that way to some of us (myself included). It's because if their basic gameplan works out, they win too fast, basically. If you don't draw anything that can sufficiently slow them and make the game feel like it actually has some back and forth, they just play their strongest minions on every turn, hit face, maybe throw a spell or two at your face to end things, and you're dead by the mid-game. It winds up giving you the feeling that you didn't even actually get to play the game, in effect, which is a similar feeling to facing a combo deck as a Control deck that lacks a way to disrupt them, even though it feels that way for very different reasons.
I like seeing the unnerfed cards ("Oh right, Blade Flurry used to actually be good!"), but am nonetheless not a big fan of this Brawl. Maybe if you could choose which deck you want it would be another story, but I'm not thrilled with getting a random one that I may not like, or in some cases even know how to play effectively. Like the Oil Rogue I alluded to with the Blade Flurry aside - never played that deck back when it was a thing, so I have no clue how to use it now, but it was the first one I got handed. Bleh.Toph Pony avatar by Dirtytabs. Thanks!
"When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." -C.S. Lewis
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2019-04-26, 04:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
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- San Francisco
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Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL
Nobody knows how to play the Patron Warrior deck and it is giving me so many free wins while I try out other decks. Honestly, getting a chance to figure out complex decks is my favorite part of this brawl. I think I've played most of them at one time or another, but playing somebody's amazing tournament deck and fumbling around with it gives insight into likely mulligan choices and class styles. All of these decks represent archetypes that are still relevant, albeit with different cards, and so offer insight into standard play now.
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2019-04-26, 04:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2010
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2019-04-26, 04:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
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Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL
The issue is that lack of knowledge of how to play them and lack of interest in playing them usually goes hand in hand. I don't know how to play Oil Rogue because I never played it, which is because I never wanted to play it. I still don't. Same goes for Patron Warrior, for that matter.
Like I said, if I could pick which deck I got, I might play it. Getting a random one? I'll pass, thanks.Toph Pony avatar by Dirtytabs. Thanks!
"When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." -C.S. Lewis
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2019-04-27, 03:20 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2013
Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL
The big problem I have with the Brawl is that you can get the same deck multiple times. I'd be interested in giving the Priest deck a shot for nostalgia's sake, but the game never handed it to me. Even if they just had the "pick a class" option it would work, although I suppose Paladin not existing as a class in the list precludes that.
Actually, that's probably it. That's why it's random. There's multiple from the same class, and no Paladin. This means they would have to design an entire GUI screen for selecting the decks, which isn't worth their time for a mere Tavern Brawl. Disappointing, but I understand why they did it this way.
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2019-04-27, 11:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Massachusetts
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2019-04-28, 01:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
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- Ashland, Kentucky
Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL
geezus
just got FLATTENED in an arena match
turn 10 he drops his SIXTH Dalaran Crusader (5/4 divine shield)
yeah..coined one out turn 4 and dropped one every single turn after thatPonies not only make ME want to be a better person than I was before they entered my life, they make me want to HELP OTHERS be better people too.
And that is a GOOD thing by any definition.
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2019-04-28, 02:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2013
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- Germany
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2019-04-29, 08:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2006
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- Washington, D.C.
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Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL
Cubelock also felt insane. No weapon destruction, no silences, maybe 2 polymorph effects. Lots of AoE and healing, and then a top-end burst combo against Control.
Firebat's Zoo and Hunter decks felt the weakest. His Druid was fun, mostly because of the old Force of Nature + Savage Roar combo where you just burst someone from nowhere.Last edited by Joran; 2019-04-29 at 08:45 AM.
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2019-05-01, 04:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
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Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL
So we have Ragnaros vs Nefarian back once again this week. I'm always happy to see this particular Brawl, it's probably my overall favorite, personally. Just a very fun shift from normal gameplay, and nothing like the RNG-fest Brawls.
Toph Pony avatar by Dirtytabs. Thanks!
"When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." -C.S. Lewis
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2019-05-08, 01:53 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
- Location
- Ashland, Kentucky
Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL
brawl this week:
so you want to work for E.V.I.L.?
bad ones
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Mr Chu--just straight up not very good..few minions which means 2 of the bosses barely help you and Lazul tends to make you overdraw
Russell--gets hard countered if opponent takes Hagatha boss
good ones
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Myra and George both work very nicely with Dr Boom
George works well with Lazul
Raeth with Hagatha can get sick because of his reincarnatesPonies not only make ME want to be a better person than I was before they entered my life, they make me want to HELP OTHERS be better people too.
And that is a GOOD thing by any definition.
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2019-05-08, 03:07 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2010
Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL
I'm so far of the opinion that the only two good ones are George (for being significantly above the power curve) and Russel, who soft counters George and can potentially hide a questing behind annoy-o-trons before George builds an answer. I've played 8 matches and won 7, and I only feel I lost the one match because I was trying out the different recruiters and picked hagatha (the evolve isn't good at all, even when evolving tokens).
I'd say that dr boom can work, but honestly I'm having way more success with Togwaggle. Drygulch Jailor is (so) good with it, and you have a tutor for the dry gulch. The ability to burst out an extra few mana or 3 1/1s for 0 mana is worth so much when trying to set up your combos to buff a board full of recruits. Divine Favor can reload you in the rare event you run out of cards. And really, all you need is to build a board and maintain it as Divinity is oppressively strong when ahead on board.Last edited by Epinephrine_Syn; 2019-05-08 at 03:08 PM.
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2019-05-08, 03:50 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2012
Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL
Vex is good if you choose boom and your opponent doesn't. Which has been the case when I did it but I think my opponents just didn't think their choice through.
Last edited by Hamste; 2019-05-08 at 03:50 PM.
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2019-05-08, 05:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2005
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Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL
If my text is blue, I'm being sarcastic.But you already knew that, right?
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2019-05-08, 06:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
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Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL
From my experience so far, I'd say most of the characters can be quite strong. George, Myra, Candlebeard, and Russel (if he ever gets to use his hero power, at least) seem to be the standouts, but Voodoomaster Vex with Boom and Raeth with Hagatha can be strong.
The one that seems by far the weakest to me is Mr. Chu, who is basically Control Warrior without the armor hero power (and with the replacement doing nothing) and with a lot of very bad deck design decisions. He still has some of the good cards (Weapons Project, Warpath, Brawl), but so much of the deck is weighed down by high-cost cards for the "Big Warrior" theme and some just bafflingly bad choices (Doctor Boom's Scheme! Why?!) that he's often got a mostly-useless hand until turn 7+, and is too far behind by then to compete.
Sephira Dusktalon seemed rather iffy to me when I played her too, though perhaps that's because I chose Hagatha as her... buff? Patron? Whatever, I chose Hagatha, and evolving doesn't go great with a deck that turns out to be very heavy on buffs. Also, her hero power is dependant on your opponent playing spells, which will vary wildly depending on who you get and which villain they pick.
Only fought against Ivan, not as him, but he seemed fine. Maybe just because I was playing Chu at the time, but still.Last edited by Zevox; 2019-05-08 at 06:36 PM.
Toph Pony avatar by Dirtytabs. Thanks!
"When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." -C.S. Lewis
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2019-05-08, 06:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
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- San Francisco
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Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL
Togwaggle Candlebeard is pretty broken in this brawl. Not perfect, but significantly advantaged against most of the heroes.
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2019-05-08, 07:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
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Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL
Indeed.
As far as the villain choices go, I think Boom is pretty strong for most of the heroes and an auto-pick when up against or playing as Vex, Togwaggle is a reasonable to good choice for most and auto-pick for Candlebeard, and Hagatha is good with specific ones (Raeth, and I guess Chu if you actually play him) but otherwise iffy to bad. Lazul seems like the worst one since she tends to cause clogged hands with spell-heavy heroes like Chu and Sephira and is probably not as good as the others for most of the more minion-heavy ones, but I think she may be arguably strong with Myra, who doesn't want Boom or Hagatha and has a decent but not very high number of spells to throw around.Last edited by Zevox; 2019-05-08 at 07:59 PM.
Toph Pony avatar by Dirtytabs. Thanks!
"When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." -C.S. Lewis
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2019-05-09, 02:39 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2013
Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL
I did win against a Lazul George while playing as Boom Mr. Chu. I played Boom on 7 and then just did the Control Warrior thing, which was just as effective against Odd Paladin as always once you're stabilized. Using the micro-bots with the Boom deathrattle proved especially useful at clearing out the Divine shields.
My Raeth game ended in a draw because I kept resurrecting draw minions. I was playing with Boom though, so I killed everything on the board on the final turn. 2 damage to my opponent to kill them, and around 60-70 damage to myself to finish at -55 HP. Hilarious though, and it counted towards the quest.
I was hoping that the special quest and Brawl meant we'd be getting the Adventure soon, but apparently they're going to be doing a preview stream on the 14th and still aren't announcing the date. Which means probably at least another week after that before we see it. Grumble grumble.
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2019-05-09, 08:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2018