Fun Learning 4e

[Great Dragon]

Ok. Here is your chance to Convince me that the Title is true.

I'll start to (slowly) read through the other Threads in this section.

I'll most likely be editing in lots of (silly) Questions.
Oh, and making comparisons to every other Edition of D&D and making (hopefully Friendly) Grognard comments.

Original Post

Spoiler: Anonymouswizard

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You made the claim, so you back it up. For the record this is the reasoning we're using for why 4e is the most balanced:

'All classes use the same resource structure and their damage dealing abilities use the same mechanics, with status effects having standardised durations. Characters also have defined roles that explicitly call out their focus, making trap builds less likely.' (I could go a bit deeper, but it's ten to twelve as I'm typing it.)

No, it's not an attempt to do a tabletop MMO.

It is a skirmish-level miniature wargame, as well as an RPG, but it has very little in common with MMOs. Do people really not look past the Defender/Striker/Leader/Controller setup? Because that's the only bit I can see that's in common with MMOs (it's also in quite a few single player CRPGs, as well as quite a few RTS and TBS games).

Honestly, I have a small list of things I wish had been kept from 4e. Healing Surges are one, Defender/Striker/Leader/Controller is another (Racial Powers are the third). Most of the rest I can leave, they work in 4e but wouldn't in a game with different assumptions, but I've found myself using Healing Surges in my homebrew systems and would use a Defence/Damage/Support/Control setup if I was going something combat related (I haven't for a while).

The problem is that spell scaling is not linear, a 4th level spell is more than twice as powerful as a 2nd level spell (most of the time). Now I can't remember how the official spell point scaling works (I remember it comes out to over 200 points a day at the highest levels), but the problem is that they don't lose anything for that additional versatility. I'd probably argue that if you're moving directly to spell points you have to cut 'mana capacities' to roughly 80% at higher levels, while keeping it equal at higher levels.

No, what I'm saying is that casters need to be taken down in terms of power and versatility. They need less spells (particularly at high levels, not so much at lower levels), and they need to have their power capped at a lower level (I like to suggest 6th level). They don't strictly need to do their spells less often, but they need to not:

1. Do more things than the mundanes can do.
2. Do it better than the mundanes.

So while we're on this topic, cards on the table, I hate D&D, and I hate it for exactly this reason. I love playing spellcasters, and D&D makes it feel like I have too much power. My favourite character pulled off about three rituals in the entire campaign (but had some passive abilities they could pull off), and the one I played just after him had three 'effects' he could call on but no more. I adore having to work around awkward rituals, strange components, limited mana, and all those limitations other systems give magicians. I hate that D&D magic is easy, because it ruins that feeling of all your preparation and sessions of setting up candles in various parts of the city finally paying off.

I'll edit comments another time.

I'm a slow learner, since I learn by seeing things done and doing them myself; plus I'm usually stuck on my phone, so please be patient.

[Dimers]

4e is my favorite RPG for several reasons. But I don't think my opinion is something that I can convince you of. People's tastes differ, and it's pretty apparent by this time that most people don't want what 4e offers.

Spoiler: It's fun because ...

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I like the structure of 4e for being clear and well-referenced. Almost every power, feature and feat is crystal clear on how it works. (Yes, there are exceptions, and they are less numerous in the totality of 4e than just the Player's Handbook of 5e.) That means no rules-lawyering, arguments, confusion or retconning to get in the way of enjoying a game.

I like that it conforms best to heroic and cinematic 'reality' rather than real reality. Sometimes, your PC will be awesome because they don't have to bow to the throne of physics. Frequently, the monsters will be more vivid and threatening because they don't have to, either.

I enjoy the lax and approximate skill structure, complemented for OOC stuff by rituals and occasionally powers, because I personally haven't seen gameplay (in any game*) improved by fine-grained adjudication of social exchanges or athletic challenges or research groundwork. Close enough is good enough when there's not a dragon trying to eat your face.

I like that you'd have to actively dis-optimize to make a character that can't contribute to an adventuring group. And simultaneously, I like that optimization can take you well beyond the baseline. I do subscribe to the Snowbluff Axiom.

I love that the DMG discusses different players' styles and desires; it helps a less experienced or less studious DM make the game more fun for everyone including herself.

I like the party orientation of combat. PCs' actions affect other players' choices far more than any other D&D. The interactivity gets everyone more involved, more present -- and it makes the tactical possibilities more interesting when everyone can do so much to change the board and the odds. Plus, I'm a bit of a Pollyanna, and I like to build up goodwill between players.



*Although I have yet to experience the White Wolf ancient Rome system for public-speaking battles. If it works the way it looks to me, it'd be fun and worthwhile, if rather limited in scope.

[Great Dragon]

Anyone know where I can find the 4e SRD?
The only site that i found was obviously a homebrew;
and I want to learn the RAW/RAI, and then convert those into RAF.

@Dimers:
Ah, but see - you're opinion of 4e is actually what I'm interested in, here.

Since I couldn't find anyone wanting to play this Edition (on its own Merritt) with me, I didn't get any of the books, and as such have no understanding beyond very basic ideas of it.
Mostly based on the hype (I wasn't interested in a tMMO), and negative feedback I saw.

Edited in more Comments.

Spoiler: Dimers: It's fun because ...

Show

I like the structure of 4e for being clear and well-referenced. Almost every power, feature and feat is crystal clear on how it works. (Yes, there are exceptions, and they are less numerous in the totality of 4e than just the Player's Handbook of 5e.) That means no rules-lawyering, arguments, confusion or retconning to get in the way of enjoying a game.

That would have been nice, though most times I refused to discuss Game Mechanics on Game Day.

I like that it conforms best to heroic and cinematic 'reality' rather than real reality. Sometimes, your PC will be awesome because they don't have to bow to the throne of physics. Frequently, the monsters will be more vivid and threatening because they don't have to, either.

I never did understand why people insist on applying Physics to a Fantasy World.

I enjoy the lax and approximate skill structure, complemented for OOC stuff by rituals and occasionally powers, because I personally haven't seen gameplay (in any game*) improved by fine-grained adjudication of social exchanges or athletic challenges or research groundwork. Close enough is good enough when there's not a dragon trying to eat your face.

I did find a very nice way to quickly resolve Diplomacy/Persuasion, but it would take some time to find it.

I like that you'd have to actively dis-optimize to make a character that can't contribute to an adventuring group. And simultaneously, I like that optimization can take you well beyond the baseline. I do subscribe to the Snowbluff Axiom.

Not sure what that means.

I love that the DMG discusses different players' styles and desires; it helps a less experienced or less studious DM make the game more fun for everyone including herself.

It does seem that the 5e Devs ignored the things they learned from any of the past Editions.

I like the party orientation of combat. PCs' actions affect other players' choices far more than any other D&D. The interactivity gets everyone more involved, more present -- and it makes the tactical possibilities more interesting when everyone can do so much to change the board and the odds.

Plus, I'm a bit of a Pollyanna, and I like to build up goodwill between players.

We could use some more of that type.

*Although I have yet to experience the White Wolf ancient Rome system for public-speaking battles. If it works the way it looks to me, it'd be fun and worthwhile, if rather limited in scope.

Humm, word battles.... interesting.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

4e is probably my favorite edition, for a couple of reasons.

First, as Dimers mentioned, it is incredibly easy to use. You do want to print out all of your powers (or perhaps organize them well digitally); bonus points for making them into little cut out paper cards like the descriptions are designed for.

Second, my play experience with 4e had a really high concentration of 'memorable moments'. The tactical, often movement or cooperation based powers mean it's really easy to pull off a cool trick. Coordinating the team to shove every enemy into the same 5ft campfire, exploiting the terrain to keep enemies moving past the defender if they want to reach you, being the arrow in the knee archer and ruining the boss's adventuring career first turn, lobbing the gnome into suspected ambushes and then teleporting him back out, sliding the paladin back a step so he can charge on his turn... these are all cool tricks that you could probably pull off in any edition of D&D. In 5e I've found these are relatively rare, maybe once a session, and often the loose mechanics of the system made them just not work (or far more trouble than was reasonable). In 3.5, either the party or the DM will probably pull one off most encounters, if you're feeling creative. But in 4e, every character will probably be doing something memorable and cool in every encounter. The easy but varied mechanics, cinematic design, and easy encounter building (from the DM side of things) are all so conducive to these memorable moments.

[OracleofWuffing]

Anyone know where I can find the 4e SRD?
The only site that i found was obviously a homebrew;
and I want to learn the RAW/RAI, and then convert those into RAF.

I dug it up through Archive.org, just click the "System Reference Document" link on the right. Don't know what the current location is these days.

Be warned that you probably are not looking for the SRD, as it does not contain RAW/RAI useful for running a game. Allegedly, Wizards viewed the openness of 3.0/3.5's SRD as a detriment to the system, and responded by making 4's SRD incredibly bare bones. In its run, the biggest "mine" of RAW information was probably achived through D&D Insider's Character Builder, Monster Builder, and Rules Compendium which... appears to be still running on its subscription-based service, but I dunno how long or stable that is gonna be. The online version that you can only get through D&DI is a Silverlight application, so running it can be finicky. They don't distribute the offline version directly anymore.

While having a character builder is awesome, it would probably be less investment to pick up used copies of the Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide/Rules Compendium, and Monster Manual. The books Heroes of the Fallen Lands and Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdom were part of a... "Not a Reboot" of the system, and were meant for people outside of 4e's base, but had a divisive reception.

[Great Dragon]

@OracleofWuffing: Thanks for the link. It's at least a start.
Ah - it's a PDF. Excellent.

I did some research, and found that there are three PHBs for 4e.
Not sure if I'm going to get all that information off that Archive, but will look.

Right now, I shouldn't need the DMG, unless someone says there are relative information about a Class or Race.
************************************************** **********
Ok, so please treat me a little like a total noob, and go step by step for creating a PC.

Don't focus on Ability Scores

instead just list base numbers. I can add modifiers after.

I'm not going fancy, so say Human. (I'll try to get that info, as well.)

Defender, Striker, Leader, Controller

Then go down the Class List, one at a time.

[Jaeda]

First, you should pick your race and class. Each of the 3 PHBs introduce several of each and contain what you need for those classes (some books, like Arcane Power, provide new options for certain classes, but the PHB 2 and PHB 3 don't really expand on the PHB 1 classes). The PHB1 also includes the rules to the game.

PHB 1 classes: Cleric (divine leader), Fighter (martial defender), Paladin (divine defender), Ranger (martial striker), Rogue (martial striker), Warlord (martial leader), Warlock (arcane striker), Wizard (arcane controller)
PHB 2 classes: Avenger (divine striker), Barbarian (primal striker), Bard (arcane leader), Druid (primal controller), Invoker (divine controller), Sorcerer (arcane striker), Spirit Shaman (primal leader), Warden (primal defender)
PHB 3 classes: Ardent (psionic leader), Battlemind (psionic defender), Monk (psionic striker), Psion (psionic controller), Rune Priest (divine leader), Seeker (primal controller)

Each class has a power source (which usually is a flavor thing but occasionally interacts with things, mostly magic items) and a role (which determines what you are good at doing in combat. So if you want to play a martial character who heals and buffs people, you can be a Warlord. Many of the power source/role combinations exist, although there are some holes. Also, most classes can be backups for one or two roles, depending on the build and powers you pick, but usually not as good as a dedicated member of that role. For example, paladins are secondary leaders and warlocks (especially star-pact) are secondary controllers.

After you pick your race and class, each will give you a list of features that you add to your character. Many classes will also give you a choice of builds to pick such as the pact that a warlock takes. In contrast to 3rd or 5th editions, you get all of your class features at level 1; most of your other customization will come from powers, which you will pick later. You will get additional features when you take your paragon path at level 11 and your epic destiny at level 21.

Now that you have your race and class chosen, you can pick your ability scores. Most classes will favor 1 primary ability score and 2 secondary abilities, although some of them (mostly PHB 1 classes) have 2 primary abilities and 2 secondary abilities. Generally, these three will be the highest ones. Usually you use a point-buy rather than rolling and there is a table of some potential selections.

Next, you can choose your skills. Which and how many you get is determined by your class. You are either trained in a skill or not. Each skill check is based on an ability modifier, adding +5 if you are trained. Each race (except human) also gets +2 to two skills. Humans instead are trained in an additional skill.

You can also compute your HP. Each class has a base number to which you add your Con SCORE (not modifier). Each additional level also gives you a fixed number of HP (not affected by constitution). You can also compute your bloodied value at 1/2 max hp and your healing surge value at 1/4 max hp. Being bloodied (reduce to half hp) doesn't directly do anything, but some abilities are connected to it. You also get a number of healing surges determined by your class and affected by your Con MODIFIER. Hp represents your short-term endurance and surges represent your long-term endurance. Using a surge (either by resting or by a power like a cleric's healing word, lets you recover hp equal to your healing surge value.

Next, we'll choose your powers. At first level, you get 2 at-will (green) attack powers, which you as often as you want; an encounter (red) attack power, which you need to take a short (5 min) rest before you can use again; and a daily (black) attack power, which you need to take an extended (6 hour) rest to recover. You choose each of these from a short list determined by your class. Your class may also give you special feature powers, like the cleric's healing word. Most races also give you a racial power, but humans get an extra at-will attack power instead (unless you use the variant in the errata). You get additional powers when you gain levels.

You also get a feat at 1st level. There is a table of them; make sure that you take a heroic-tier (not paragon or epic-tier) feat and that you meet the prerequisites. Most feats make you better at something that you can already do. You gain additional feats at odd levels.

Next, you can pick your equipment. You get 100 gp to spend on stuff. You should make sure that you pick the best armor that your class is proficient in, the standard adventurers kit, and any other accoutrements that your class needs.

Once you have your armor, you can set your defenses. If you wear light armor, your AC is 10 + Armor + Dex / Int (whichever is better). If you wear heavy armor, it is just 10 + Armor. Shields give you an additional bonus. You'll later get magic armor that gives a bonus to AC.

You also have 3 other defenses, Fort (Str / Con), Ref (Dex / Int) and Will (Wis / Cha). These are 10 + Better Ability + Class Bonus. Shields also give a bonus to reflex. Later, you will get magic amulets or cloaks that give a bonus to these non-AC defenses.

That should give you a good run-down on how to build a character. Be sure to fill out your name!

[Great Dragon]

Keep in mind that I'm stuck on my phone most of the time, so don't have access to major sites or PDFs.
Limited Time on Tablet to access that information.

Remember to show your work, please.
Also, Referencing information needs Book and page number. So I can quickly find that myself. Thanks.

<Cleric Moved !!>

Which didn't really help. The PDF was just a long list of options, but without any explanations for how many I got at level 1, what those options did, or how to use them within the context of the mechanics (Combat, mostly)

Continuing:

Creatures get three actions per turn in combat -- one standard, one move, one minor.
Free actions are unlimited. On other creatures' turns, you can sometimes use an immediate action (once per round) and/or opportunity action (once per turn -- everybody has a better version of 3.5's Combat Reflexes). Most attack powers require a standard action

three at-will attack powers*, one encounter attack, one daily attack and no utilities beyond the class features

Thanks!!

[MeeposFire]

I find going to much into details with someone who does not know the game clouds the point trying to be made so I am just going to say what I find are 4e's strength.

For me the best part of 4e as compared to any other edition is the tactical play. More so than any other edition classes are designed to interact with each other and build off of each other. Your rogue may have an ability that make opportunity attacks made against him fail almost every time and so you may provoke those attacks on purpose to get an enemy to attack you so that your fighter friend makes an extra attack against him. Your warlord friend could give you the ability to move off your turn and could give you an extra attack with bonuses all sorts of potential fun stuff.

Another great thing is that I have found it relatively easy to teach and to play. Making a character is sadly not quite as easy but it is not really any worse than making a 3e character in many ways (though what makes it difficult is not the same but I find the process mostly a wash).

I also found it to be a relatively easy game to DM. The encounter rules work fairly well and the later monsters are relatively easy to use and more fun to fight. The game tends towards giving out less fluff (much like later 3e products) so if you need that I would steal fluff from other editions or games and just port it to the 4e game.

[Beoric]

For me the best part of 4e as compared to any other edition is the tactical play.

This is the primary reason I play 4e. Where a character stands is important. How a character moves is important. How much a character can accomplish in a round is important.

This is true of all characters; all of your character's combat abilities, in terms of powers, items and feats, just vary how you manage those three items (and those three items limit how you can use those powers, items and feats).

I have a player who heavily optimizes and is crap at tactical combat, and another who chooses all of his options for flavour and is a skilled tactician. The skilled tactician regularly fights circles around the optimizer. My particular optimizer still has fun because he has so many buttons to push, but there is no escaping the fact that the game holds more for a person who enjoys and/or is skilled at tactics and strategy.

[Dimers]

Anyone know where I can find the 4e SRD?

Doesn't exist, really. I haven't seen a resource that describes the structure and underlying rules, only ones that tell you what specifics you can drape onto said structure.

Since I couldn't find anyone wanting to play this Edition (on its own Merritt) with me, I didn't get any of the books, and as such have no understanding beyond very basic ideas of it.
Mostly based on the hype (I wasn't interested in a tMMO), and negative feedback I saw.

I didn't see the grotesque ad campaign they used to "promote" 4e, just because I see very little advertising at all. And I joined this forum well after I'd started learning 4e and thus formed my own impressions before hearing it trash-talked. So my introduction was lucky.

Snowbluff Axiom

Not sure what that means.

The GitP user Snowbluff said, basically, "I think games should be unbalanced and exploitable, because that allows games for different preferences and different levels of skill." Solid reasoning, if not especially newbie-friendly.

I did some research, and found that there are three PHBs for 4e.

The only one you'd need to learn the rules is PHB1. Like Jaeda described above, the other player-oriented books (i.e. almost all of them) just give more options. There were some rules changes from what the PHB1 says, all updated in the Rules Compendium, but also in the free pdf listing all errata. The last one produced was August 2014. I can't quickly find a copy online, but if you wanna PM your email address, I can send it to you. The two differences I can think of are a tweak to stealth rules and some changes to gating for once-a-day effects from magic items. Originally, a heroic-tier character (levels 1-10) could only use one daily item power per day, no matter how many toys she had. Later, the cap was removed and item rarity was used to restrict the more abusable items.

The PDF was just a long list of options, but without any explanations for how many I got at level 1, what those options did, or how to use them within the context of the mechanics (Combat, mostly) ...

Referencing information needs Book and page number. So I can quickly find that myself. Thanks.

Yeah. The PHB1 does a good job explaining that. Going into detail here is gonna take quite a while, even ignoring the most common complications like backgrounds and themes. I can add book&page references to my Wall Of Text below if you actually have a PHB to reference ... ?

Creatures get three actions per turn in combat -- one standard, one move, one minor (p267). Free actions are unlimited. On other creatures' turns, you can sometimes use an immediate action (once per round) and/or opportunity action (once per turn -- everybody has a better version of 3.5's Combat Reflexes). See p268 for how those work. Most attack powers require a standard action.

A L1 human cleric has 12 HP plus their Constitution score and a number of daily healing surges equal to 7 plus their Constitution modifier (p60). Healing surges (see p293) represent how much abuse you can bounce back from in a day. Fighters and paladins have more than wizards and rogues, as well as more hit points. Most times that you use a healing surge, you get back 1/4 your hit points. Once you're out of surges, you can only get healing from potions that are both crappy and expensive.

You're trained in the use of simple weapons, moderate armor and the use of holy symbols for implement attacks (p60). Most PC attacks are either weapon or implement; a cleric that emphasizes Strength will mostly use weapon attacks, while a Wisdom-heavy cleric will mostly use implement attacks. (As you look through the powers in the chapter, you'll see the Weapon keyword ones are mostly Strength vs AC and the Implement ones are Wisdom vs F/R/W.) Weapons have a damage die that you however many times the power tells you to -- a dagger only deals d4 per roll, a mace or crossbow would roll d8s, a scythe or greatclub would be 2d4 each time. (See "Weapon Damage Dice" on p276.) Implement damage isn't derived from anything -- the power tells you to roll, say, 2d6 or 1d10 or what-have-you.

Your first-level human cleric automatically gets Divine Fortune and Turn Undead powers and is able to use one or the other each encounter. Turn Undead is a standard action to damage and push undead that are close to you, Divine Fortune gives a dinky bonus to one attack or save but doesn't cost you an action. You can use Healing Word power twice per encounter as a minor action; each time, you or one nearby ally can spend a healing surge and get back an extra d6 HP. That's a nice change from 3.X -- a serious healing power that doesn't tank your action economy. Class features (including Divine Fortune / Turn Undead under "Channel Divinity") on p61, with the powers' mechanics on p62.

Your other class features are a bonus to healing powers (Healer's Lore) and the ability to use slow, expensive noncombat magic (Ritual Casting; pages 298-315 cover this topic). "Slow and expensive" doesn't really sell it, eh? Well, it's the only way to do stuff like divination, raising the dead or removing curses, and you get the ability for free, anyway.

A 1st-level human cleric has three at-will attack powers*, one encounter attack, one daily attack and no utilities beyond the class features (powers-known table is on page 29). You'll learn more as you level up. I won't subject you to dozens of specifics, but you pick powers that accomplish what you want (high damage? control? team bonuses? debuffs?) in the way you've chosen to accomplish it (basically either Wis+implement or Str+weapon).

* A very popular later option lets humans pick a great reactive self-buff to use once per encounter, instead of a third at-will attack. But I'm just working with PHB stuff, here.

You're trained in Religion and four other skills chosen from among Arcana, Diplomacy, Heal, History and Insight (p60, with the concept of class skills explained briefly on p52 and the skill descriptions on p180-189). Most human clerics will have a lot of skills in common, partly because humans get one more training than other races do. (All info on humans is p46-47.)

Your statmods will add to your Fortitude, Reflex and Will defenses (see p274-275 for the full rundown). Humans have an additional +1 to each of those, and clerics get +2 Will (p60). Each should be targeted about one-sixth of the time. For your AC defense, targeted about half the time, you're probably best off adding a larger flat number for heavy armor rather than a smaller number plus statmod for light armor (see p212 for why, and p214 to compare chainmail against light armor you're trained in). Only Intelligence or Dexterity would add to lightly-armored AC, and clerics emphasize neither of those.

Finally, you get two feats (nonhumans would only have one). Those are a whole 'nother screed.

Do I choose a Domain? Doesn't seem so, just pick a Deity that fits the desired Role (Leader)?

You do pick a deity, and it does restrict your choosable domains, but the domains don't change anything without spending feats (that's all in the book "Divine Power"). Depending on the DM, patron deity might also restrict which Channel feats you can use, all of which add options in play but conflict with your use of Turn Undead or Divine Fortune. Channel feats are spread throughout the Heroic tier of the feats chapter, p193-201. All the feats with red power blocks are Channel feats.

[Great Dragon]

Thanks, All !!

@Dimers: that is most helpful.

Oh, and my email is [email protected].

Doesn't exist, really. I haven't seen a resource that describes the structure and underlying rules, only ones that tell you what specifics you can drape onto said structure.

That's annoying. But then, WotC having the 3e SRD was said to have undermined their book sales.

I didn't see the grotesque ad campaign they used to "promote" 4e, just because I see very little advertising at all. And I joined this forum well after I'd started learning 4e and thus formed my own impressions before hearing it trash-talked. So my introduction was lucky.

Lucky indeed. Not only did I get all the ads to attract MMO players to the "new" version of D&D plus all the Old Players poo-poo-ing 4e and running to Pathfinder; and I had over $500 worth of 3.x books that I was familiar with;
and like I said, didn't have anyone interested in playing, plus I wasn't interested in doing a tMMO at the time.

The GitP user Snowbluff said, basically, "I think games should be unbalanced and exploitable, because that allows games for different preferences and different levels of skill." Solid reasoning, if not especially newbie-friendly.

Humm. I can agree on exploitable - since that's just being a smart Player; but prefer as much balance with Game Mechanics (at least as close as possible between classes - I'm still working on giving Martials better choices for 5e).

The only one you'd need to learn the rules is PHB1. Like Jaeda described above, the other player-oriented books (i.e. almost all of them) just give more options. There were some rules changes from what the PHB1 says, all updated in the Rules Compendium, but also in the free pdf listing all errata. The last one produced was August 2014. I can't quickly find a copy online, but if you wanna PM your email address, I can send it to you.

Yes, please!

The two differences I can think of are a tweak to stealth rules and some changes to gating for once-a-day effects from magic items. Originally, a heroic-tier character (levels 1-10) could only use one daily item power per day, no matter how many toys she had. Later, the cap was removed and item rarity was used to restrict the more abusable items.

Humm...

Yeah. The PHB1 does a good job explaining that. Going into detail here is gonna take quite a while, even ignoring the most common complications like backgrounds and themes. I can add book&page references to my Wall Of Text below if you actually have a PHB to reference ... ?

I did manage to find someone with an old 4e PHB 1, that I can borrow from time to time, so yes - please include Book and page numbers for ease of looking up

Creatures get three actions per turn in combat -- one standard, one move, one minor. Free actions are unlimited. On other creatures' turns, you can sometimes use an immediate action (once per round) and/or opportunity action (once per turn -- everybody has a better version of 3.5's Combat Reflexes). Most attack powers require a standard action

Not much difference from other versions of D&D.

A L1 human cleric has 12 HP plus their Constitution score and a number of daily healing surges equal to 7 plus their Constitution modifier. Healing surges represent how much abuse you can bounce back from in a day. Fighters and paladins have more than wizards and rogues, as well as more hit points. Most times that you use a healing surge, you get back 1/4 your hit points. Once you're out of surges, you can only get healing from potions that are both crappy and expensive.

Just a flat number of Hit Points?
No Hit Dice to roll each level?

Everyone getting Healing Surges is interesting.

You're trained in the use of simple weapons, moderate armor and the use of holy symbols for implement attacks. Most PC attacks are either weapon or implement; a cleric that emphasizes Strength will mostly use weapon attacks, while a Wisdom-heavy cleric will mostly use implement attacks. Weapons have a damage die that you however many times the power tells you to -- a dagger only deals d4 per roll, a mace or crossbow would roll d8s, a scythe or greatclub would be 2d4 each time. Implement damage isn't derived from anything -- the power tells you to roll, say, 2d6 or 1d10 or what-have-you.

So either melee weapon or Spell.
Not many Ranged weapon options?

Your first-level human cleric automatically gets Divine Fortune and Turn Undead powers and is able to use one or the other each encounter. Turn Undead is a standard action to damage and push undead that are close to you, Divine Fortune gives a dinky bonus to one attack or save but doesn't cost you an action. You can use Healing Word power twice per encounter as a minor action; each time, you or one nearby ally can spend a healing surge and get back an extra d6 HP. That's a nice change from 3.X -- a serious healing power that doesn't tank your action economy.

So far, so good.

Your other class features are a bonus to healing powers (Healer's Lore) and the ability to use slow, expensive noncombat magic (Ritual Casting). "Slow and expensive" doesn't really sell it, eh? Well, it's the only way to do stuff like divination, raising the dead or removing curses, and you get the ability for free, anyway.

I kinda didn't like the spell Remove Curse.
Instantly negating a curse really shouldn't be a thing. Especially since, as the DM, I'll do my best to think of Quest Plots to get rid of the Curse.

If the Player (or Party) isn't interested in doing Quests like that, they can just tell me OoC, and we'll work something out.

A Ritual-based Remove Curse is actually something I'm interested in using for that purpose.

A 1st-level human cleric has three at-will attack powers*, one encounter attack, one daily attack and no utilities beyond the class features. You'll learn more as you level up. I won't subject you to dozens of specifics, but you pick powers that accomplish what you want (high damage? control? team bonuses? debuffs?) in the way you've chosen to accomplish it (basically either Wis+implement or Str+weapon).

I'll have to do some reading to see all the options, and compare differences.

* A very popular later option lets humans pick a great reactive self-buff to use once per encounter, instead of a third at-will attack. But I'm just working with PHB stuff, here.

Well, at least I know.

You're trained in Religion and four other skills chosen from among Arcana, Diplomacy, Heal, History and Insight. Most human clerics will have a lot of skills in common, partly because humans get one more training than other races do.

Check.

Your stat mods will add to your Fortitude, Reflex and Will defenses. Humans have an additional +1 to each of those, and clerics get +2 Will. Each should be targeted about one-sixth of the time. For your AC defense, targeted about half the time, you're probably best off adding a larger flat number for heavy armor rather than a smaller number plus stat mod for light armor. Only Intelligence or Dexterity would add to lightly-armored AC, and clerics emphasize neither of those.

That was another thing I saw, and heard lots of compliments on. Being able to choose between two Abilities. Where it was lots easier to just get nice numbers for the three you cared about, and dump the others. I do like that 5e gives more benefits to each Ability, although some (Int) could use a little more love.

Finally, you get two feats (nonhumans would only have one). Those are a whole 'nother screed.

I'll go down that rabbit hole later.

You do pick a deity, and it does restrict your choosable domains, but the domains don't change anything without spending feats. Depending on the DM, patron deity might also restrict which Channel feats you can use, all of which add options in play but conflict with your use of Turn Undead or Divine Fortune.

More research.

[Vhaidara]

The thing with ability scores is that, as you develop system mastery, you can learn to play around with different combinations. Dimers is just going over what the normal associations are, but there's a lot of variety, especially when you get into hybrid classes and the more complete array of powers. Some of the stranger examples I've seen/played. These are going to be fairly exotic, and not builds i recommend to new players, I'm just using them as examples of weird things you can do when you know how to make the system dance
Bard|Druid (Sentinel) running Wis/Con. Bard is normally a Cha based class, but they have some good daily and encounter options that either don't attack (the encounter option) or do their most important parts simply from being used, regardless of hit or miss (in the power's "Effect" line instead of the "Hit" line). This character is actually a beastmaster build, using sentinel's animal companion and druidic summoning dailies in combination with a powerful Con bard Paragon Path to make them properly threatening.
Lazylord: Warlord is normally Str based, but they have a lot of powers that are simply "your ally makes a basic attack". Lazylord is honestly not very GOOD, and is highly reliant on a party that plays nice with it, but it is a workable gimmick build. Personally I prefer the next variant (having played both)
Basiclord: Warlord also has a number of powers that only require the warlord to make a basic attack, which is something very easy to base off of a stat other than Str, and which a lot of hybrid classes work VERY well with. The one I'm currently playing is a Vampire|Warlord who uses warlord powers to enable her allies while she slaps them around with radiant energy (fluffwise she is a fallen angel)

There are also classes that, depending on your power selection, don't really care about their secondary ability score. Most of them, honestly. I've seen Barbarians, Fighters, and Rangers who played to Str/Int to take advantage of the racial support offered by Genasi, I've seen warlocks run Dex secondary instead of Int to get a different array of skills, I've seen more Con/Int and Con/Dex Battleminds than Con/Wis or Con/Cha (the second set being their official secondary stats).

The thing I love about 4e though is honestly running it. It is so easy. If I want to be lazy, I can go into a session with a basic storyline planned out, improvise most of it, and run any combats from a couple of buttons and tables to provide the numbers for the monsters (adding in effects as appropriate). A common resource that the group I'm in provides to people who want to try DMing is this. You can run a combat off of that business card. There's a more expanded table that breaks it down into actual numbers for each level and dice+statics for the damage, but this can at least ballpark it.The math mostly takes care of itself. I run for a pretty high op group that tends to use good tactics, so at higher levels I'll up the damage and give the monsters some more gimmicks, but I have actually run an Epic level session for some really optimized characters off of this business card.

[Jaeda]

Just a flat number of Hit Points?
No Hit Dice to roll each level?

Everyone getting Healing Surges is interesting.

Yes, you get a static amount of hit points. Hit points are your short-term (encounter level) endurance and healing surges are your long-term (daily) endurance.

So either melee weapon or Spell.
Not many Ranged weapon options?

No clerics don't get very many powers that work with ranged weapons. Other clases, like ranger and rogue do. As a cleric, you are expected to be using your implement powers for ranged attacks or to make basic attacks with a javelin (if you are a Str-based cleric).

Most of the non-combat spells like teleport, raise dead, and sending are now rituals, and all rituals have longer cast times and costly material components, which helps keep them from being over-used. I also really like using teleportation circle as a mid heroic ritual and keeping teleport as an epic-tier one since it gives you a more straightforward use case of cutting out overland travel between places you've visited without the headaches of being able to teleport into the villain's sanctum.

It is worth mentioning that you get two channel divinity powers (turn undead and divine fortune), but they both key off the same resource, so using one also expends the other. If you add one with your god's channel divinity feat (like armor of Bahamut), this likewise also expends your channel divinity.

I also found it to be a relatively easy game to DM. The encounter rules work fairly well and the later monsters are relatively easy to use and more fun to fight. The game tends towards giving out less fluff (much like later 3e products) so if you need that I would steal fluff from other editions or games and just port it to the 4e game.

This. I was a little iffy on 4e when starting out, but after I started DMing it, I knew I wasn't going to go back to 3e, and probably my biggest disappointment from running 5e. Each monster has everything you need to know right there and it is really easy to combine several monsters together for an encounter, unlike 3e and 5e where you need to look up the spells that the monster carries and single monsters is the default.

[Dimers]

I did manage to find someone with an old 4e PHB 1, that I can borrow from time to time, so yes - please include Book and page numbers for ease of looking up

I've edited page references into my Wall Of Text in bold.

[Great Dragon]

@Jaeda: Some of those spells as Rituals might be something I add to my 5e game.

Something to ponder.

I've edited page references into my Wall Of Text in bold.

Thanks!!

[Dimers]

Some of those spells as Rituals might be something I add to my 5e game.

On a related note, check out 3.5's "incantations" if you're not familiar with them already. Like 4e rituals, incantations use money and skills to activate specific magic that anyone can potentially use, caster or non-.

Ooh, note to self, a ritual casting boost could be a good Skill Trick ...

[HouseRules]

Hit Points

4E = Constitution at Level 1 + Maximized Hit Dice Every Level
This Constitution at Level 1 is practically the same as an extra d10 (or d11 for odd constitution scores)

3E/PF = Maximized 1st Hit Dice + Half Round Up Other Hit Dice

NPC Abilities

4E: NPCs with Class Levels only keep the 4 highest levels of each category of AEDU abilities, players keep all that they gain through leveling up.
Thus, players have more Encounter and Daily abilities that are useful, and those extra At-will abilities are too low level to be useful.
Thus, for the same level, NPCs are always weaker than PCs, unless you go Elite or Solo.

3E: NPCs with Class Levels are built to the same rules as PCs so they are stronger with special reduced Challenge Rating effects if possible.
There are ways to reduce Challenge Rating relative to Effective Character Level, making NPCs "stronger" than PCs.

Minion, Regular, Elite, and Solo

Minions gives ¼× experience, and immune to automatic damage on missed. However, they only have 1 hit points.

Regulars gives normal experience, and typically four of them at the same level as the player would give 50:50 change.

Elite gives 2× experience, and have double hit points.

Solo gives 4× experience, however, heroic have 4× hit points, paragon have 5× hit points, and epic have 6× hit points!
Thus, it is harder the higher you go when fighting Solos.

Experience

4E: follows the preferred number sequence of 4, 5, 6, 7, and double every 4th level.
Balanced to level up every 10 balanced encounters or equivalent.

3E/PF: follows the preferred number sequence of 2, 3, and double every 2nd (aka even) level.
Go look up level independent experience in unearthed arcana for 3.5 version; the exception to preferred number is at level 1 where a character needs 1000 xp and level 2 needs 2000 xp, skipping a 1500 xp level between level 1 and level 2.
Balance to level up every 40/3 balanced encounters or equivalent; it's actually closer to 14 more often than ⅔'s of the time.
For medium xp in pathfinder, level up every 20 balanced encounter or equivalent.
For slow xp in pathfinder, level up every 30 balanced encounter or equivalent.

AD&D: follows the geometric series of double every level
Balanced to level up every 100 balanced encounters or equivalent (without treasure xp) (varies by classes, some need more and others need less)
Exception: from level 1 to 2, 200 encounters (without treasure xp) (varies by classes, some need more and others need less)
Exception: from level 2 to 3, 50 encounters (without treasure xp) (varies by classes, some need more and others need less)

Party

4E: Assumes and balance5 equal level party members

3E/PF: Assumes and balanced for 4 equal level party members

[erikun]

D&D4e does indeed have a SRD. And it is indeed as bare bones as you have seen. WotC thought that the D&D3e SRD stifled sales but they still wanted content available for 3rd party publishers, and so they tried something different for D&D4e. What they "tried" involved basically just a listing of keywords from D&D4e as the "SRD". This meant that publishers could still publish books that used terms like Powers and At-Will and Warlord in the same context as D&D4e, but they wouldn't be able to just reprint the D&D4e PHB for their book. People would be required to buy an official D&D4e PHB to get the full rules.

It also meant no online resource can (legally) print the D&D4e rules to find.

There are indeed three Player's Handbooks, along with three Monster Manuals and I think two Dungeon Master Guides. One thing that D&D4e tried to do was make "Everything is Core!" and so, when they had new classes to add to the system, they just released a new PHB with the new classes. I'd say this didn't work out well, because apparently a lot of people just didn't want to keep buying new books for half a dozen classes, but it's the reason why you have so many similar books like Martial Power 2.

For the actual game rules, you just need PHB1 and DMG1. There was a rebalance which changed the numbers for Skill Challenges and for Monster Generation (for the better) but those are probably the only real "updates" you'd need to find. Any other new rules are optional and/or ways of changing the game, not required to run it.

@Jaeda: Some of those spells as Rituals might be something I add to my 5e game.

This is actually something that D&D5e already does. Some spells have the ritual tag. If you have that spell memorized, then you can cast it without expending a spell slot (even when you have no spells) by spending 15 minutes casting. Wizards might be able to cast rituals straight out of their spellbook without even memorizing, but I'm not as familiar with that class.

[Great Dragon]

This is actually something that D&D5e already does. Some spells have the ritual tag. If you have that spell memorized, then you can cast it without expending a spell slot (even when you have no spells) by spending 15 minutes casting. Wizards might be able to cast rituals straight out of their spellbook without even memorizing, but I'm not as familiar with that class.

Yeah, all the 5e Wizard needs is to have the Ritual in their Spellbook, and the materials and time to do the spell.
am I mean because I'll roll for Encounters during this time?

I was looking at some of the spells that I don't remember being on the list, Like Sending.
Cleric could use some more Rituals - Raise Dead, for when it's too late to use Revivify.

[ve4grm]

am I mean because I'll roll for Encounters during this time?

Only if you make it expend the materials/money/whatever if they get interrupted.

[NomGarret]

So, we're building a PHB1 Human Cleric. Gotcha. Others have done a pretty good job of laying the foundation, so let's go a little deeper.

Your main ability scores are going to be Strength, Wisdom, and Charisma, not necessarily in that order. This is going to mean a few things. Reflex will typically be your weak defense, whereas Fortitude and particularly Will should be really good. As an aside, one of the big differences in 4e is that the attacker always rolls. So whereas in other editions it might be a ranged attack roll to hit vs your static defense with a small ball of fire and a reactive roll to dodge vs a static attack against a big ball of fire, it's always a roll to attack vs a static defense regardless of the size of the fire.

Another thing your ability scores are going to influence is your choice in armor. Light armors (cloth, leather, hide, and their variants) add your Dex/Int bonus to AC. Heavy armors (chain being the one you start proficient in) do not. Given your likely lackluster Dex/Int, you'll probably switch to heavy armor if you don't start there from the beginning. Now, for a feat (and we'll cover that soon ... probably) you can use scale armor, but here's one of the interesting quirks you'll run into quite soon - magic weapons and armor are often restricted to certain types, so you may find that the cool class feature-boosting armor doesn't come in scale.

Beyond that, let's get to power choice. You're a human, so you get 3 At-Will powers to choose from.

Lance of Faith - Wisdom-based. Short range (close enough a dwarf could walk there in a single action). Deal some radiant damage (damage types are a common optimization route, but don't sweat it now) and give an ally a bonus to hit that target.

Priest's Shield - Strength based. Melee. Do some damage and give an ally an AC boost.

Righteous Brand - Strength based. Melee. Do some damage and give an ally an attack bonus vs that target.

Sacred Flame - Wisdom based. Short range. Bit of radiant damage and ally gets either Charisma based temp HP or a saving throw (which in 4e is a roll to shake off ongoing effects).

So you'll get a mix of melee and short range powers. You're going to stay up in the thick of things to reach your allies and your enemies.

[Yakk]

...

Like 1/3 of the statements about 4e are wrong. Please don't.

4E = Constitution at Level 1 + Maximized Hit Dice Every Level

No.

4E: NPCs with Class Levels only keep the 4 highest levels of each category of AEDU abilities, players keep all that they gain through leveling up.
Thus, players have more Encounter and Daily abilities that are useful, and those extra At-will abilities are too low level to be useful.
Thus, for the same level, NPCs are always weaker than PCs, unless you go Elite or Solo.

Nonsense.

Regulars gives normal experience, and typically four of them at the same level as the player would give 50:50 change.

No.

Solo gives 4× experience, however, heroic have 4× hit points, paragon have 5× hit points, and epic have 6× hit points!
Thus, it is harder the higher you go when fighting Solos.

False.

4E: follows the preferred number sequence of 4, 5, 6, 7, and double every 4th level.

Confusing even tho true.

[tiornys]

It's not how I'd typically phrase it, but I think the assertion about four regulars per player being a 50/50 battle is correct. I think it should be emphasized that a standard encounter is one same-level enemy per player character, with the expectation that an average group has 4-5 player characters.

I remember a level+4 encounter being defined as roughly a coinflip, where the monsters have equal chances of winning as the PCs. Typically I think of this as one level+4 monster per PC (e.g. 5 L9 monsters vs. 5 L5 PCs), but as the XP budget of a L9 monster is equal to 4x the XP budget of a L5 monster, the same XP budget gets you 20 L5 monsters, or 4x the number of players. It appears that this L(n+4) XP = 4x L(n) XP formula holds throughout the level ranges.

edit: never mind. I just double-checked and Ln+4 XP is only twice Ln XP, so the correct formula would be double the number of same level enemies. I don't know how I screwed that up in my head when I looked yesterday.

[Great Dragon]

@ NomGarret: Thanks!

Only if you make it expend the materials/money/whatever if they get interrupted.

Depends on a few factors: Type of Ritual and how close they got to completion.
You know, what the PCs are usually doing to the Cultists?

@tiornys
Might need some help with translation of that…
Let me see. if I'm level one - need two CR 1 monsters for XP boost?

@Yakk
I'll see if I can borrow the Book, either today, or Monday, and post what I find here.
**
Opps - ran out of time.
I'll try to get the book again next week.
Edit - Managed to get ahold of friend, and quickly confirm some info.

<Cleric moved>

[PoeticallyPsyco]

It would probably be worth checking your local library for the books you want. That's what I've done every time I was playing 4e, and the Seattle Library system at least has a lot of them (PHB I, II, and III, Martial Power, Adventurer's Vault, Monster Manual, DMG, Player's Guide to Faerun, Divine Power, probably a few others I'm forgetting). I was able to get every book I wanted, although sometimes I had to wait a week or two on hold. Now that 5e is the current edition, the 4e books are probably in even less demand.

[Great Dragon]

It would probably be worth checking your local library for the books you want.

Right now all I need is the PHB 1, although once I get a basic grip on that, I'll check for the others you listed at the Portland Library.

The last time I tried to get D&D books at the (different state) library, they said that they couldn't keep copies in stock, because people would check them out, and never return them.

[Vhaidara]

Str 10 Dex 10 Con 10 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 10

Just a note, 4e does not work if you skip ability scores. If you want to keep things simple, I would just take a basic array (probably 16/16/12/12/10/8), but the system completely falls apart if you try to run without a real statline

Hit Points: 12 (+0 Con). (+5/lv)

This is incorrect, level 1 HP adds CON Score, not CON mod. Low level 4e characters are extremely durable by the standards of other editions.

[Jaeda]

@tiornys
Might need some help with translation of that…
Let me see. if I'm level one - need two CR 1 monsters for XP boost?

You probably should ignore most of that. The normal encounter is 1 monster per PC (not for the party like in 3e/5e) of approximately their level (LV -1 to LV+2ish), with elites counting as 2 monsters and minions as 1/4. The attack bonus math means that going above LV+4 or below LV -2 is likely to make them either frustrating or trivial. You are probably better adding more monsters if you want to make the fight harder.

Human: +2 to one Ability Score.
One Bonus At-Will Power from Class.
+1 to Fortitude, Reflex and Will defenses.
Characteristic: Tolerant.

I believe humans also get training in one additional skill.

Hit Points: 12 (+0 Con). (+5/lv)
Armor Class:
(Still looking for Starting Equipment)

Fortitude Defense: +0 Con = 0
Reflex Defense: +0 Dex = 0
Will Defense: +2 class + 1 Wis = 3 (?)

Your starting HP should be 22: you add your Con SCORE not modifier here. You do use your Con modifier for computing how many healing surges you get. Your defenses are a static DC number and should be 10 higher; Fort 10, Ref 10, Will 13.

Cleric (divine leader)
Do I choose a Domain? Doesn't seem so, just pick a Deity that fits the desired Role (Leader) ?

No you don't choose a domain. The closest thing is that your deity affects which channel divinity feats (like Armor of Bahamut) are available to you which give you an alternate use of your Channel Divinity ability. Remember that once you use a Channel Divinity ability, like Turn Undead, you can't use the others until your Channel Divinity recovers after a short rest.

Do you have a character sheet? This one will help guide you through a lot of the math and stuff.

[Great Dragon]

Made some Edits to Cleric.

Just a note, 4e does not work if you skip ability scores. If you want to keep things simple, I would just take a basic array (probably 16/16/12/12/10/8), but the system completely falls apart if you try to run without a real statline

Since this PC is stuck in the White Room; they are mostly just helping me to get the Basics down, for 4e. I'm a little odd, in that I believe that even a straight 10 PC should still be able to engage in the game, not just PCs with High Stats and only one or two Low stats.

This is incorrect, level 1 HP adds CON Score, not CON mod. Low level 4e characters are extremely durable by the standards of other editions.

Thanks!

You probably should ignore most of that.

That explanation make a lot more sense !! Thanks !!

No you don't choose a domain.
Do you have a character sheet?

Thanks for the PC sheet.

Any suggestions on which Deity to pick?
Bahamut looks like a good pick, but what other options are good?

Comparing different Channel Divinity powers is what I'll most likely do the next time I get the book.