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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Default how to deal with a dragons high attack roll

    Alright so I may be misunderstanding things but I hope you guys and gals can help me. Many party is group of 5 all level 14. Our dm has allowed ALL books made by wizards legal for game play. We will be fighting a dragon soon as part of a quest for a legendary weapon he made for one of the players. My problen is this an adult red dragon has a +31 attack and a BAB of +22. How do you not get hit everytime? And with a breath weapon that does 12d10 how do you not insta die? If I left out anything important to answering these qyestions let me know and I will provide more info.

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    Default Re: how to deal with a dragons high attack roll

    Don't get hit. It sounds silly, but that's the way to do it. You're a five-person level 14 party. You can get 50% miss chances with spells like Displacement and Greater Blink. Use Celerity and Wall of Force to stop breath weapons, and Solid Fog to keep the dragon locked down (hopefully he doesn't have Freedom of Movement.) Or just use spells like Hide From Dragons and be on your way. Basically, it comes down to USE LOTS OF MAGIC.

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    Default Re: how to deal with a dragons high attack roll

    What you do is get some fantastic halfings to use you as a mount!

    Or, more seriously, magic that gives a miss chance is good, just remember he has blindsight so some things don't work blindsense so they know your location within 60', but they still have a miss chance. Summons can soak up some of his natural attacks and provide flanking. They can also potentially aid another to increase your AC.

    Breath Weapon is easy. Energy Resistance. Cover can also help. Try to not fight the dragon in the open so it can't fly. Remember, the breath weapon only averages 65 damage, so that's manageable if 30 of it is negated. There's also Energy Immunity, but I don't recall what spell level that is (hmm, if it is 8th you are out of luck).

    What sorts of ACs does your group have? How much money to spend on creating/buying new items?
    Last edited by Drachasor; 2013-07-09 at 05:31 PM. Reason: Fixed due to Jeraa

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    Default Re: how to deal with a dragons high attack roll

    What's your party makeup? Are you 5 fighters? 5 Rogues? 5 Wizards? A traditional Fighter/Cleric/Rogue/Wizard/Bard party? At 14th any level, the kind of magic you have at your disposal is going to make a serious difference.
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    Default Re: how to deal with a dragons high attack roll

    Quote Originally Posted by plaugebearer View Post
    And with a breath weapon that does 12d10 how do you not insta die?
    At your level, Resist Energy (a 2nd level spell) gives fire resistance 30. Thats enough to halve the breath weapon on average. Protection from Energy (3rd level spell) would give outright immunity to fire, but can only absorb 120 points of damage total (enough for almost 2 breath attacks). Even at the minimum caster level, Protection from Energy will still prevent 50 points of fire damage.

    As for the attack roll, get a miss chance. Blur gives a 20% miss chance, while displacement gives a 50% miss chance. A potion of Displacement costs 750 gp, and will cause half of the attacks that would of hit you to now miss you. (Dragons have Blindsense, not Blindsight. Blindsight negates concealment, Blindsense does not.)

    Or, more seriously, magic that gives a miss chance is good, just remember he has blindsight so some things don't work. Summons can soak up some of his natural attacks and provide flanking. They can also potentially aid another to increase your AC.
    Blindsense, not Blindsight.
    Last edited by Jeraa; 2013-07-09 at 05:28 PM.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: how to deal with a dragons high attack roll

    One of the big rules of fighting dragons is, do not let them get off a full attack. If this means you don't get to full attack, so be it. Basically, you have to be prepared to have a way to get out of the dragon's reach if you're melee, or attack from outside of it somehow. This may mean coordinating with another PC to teleport/etc you out, though thats obviously costly on actions.

    The 12d10 breath isn't so bad if you know you're going to be facing a dragon and know what type, since its always some kind of energy type and you can just prepare resistances appropriately.

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    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: how to deal with a dragons high attack roll

    Quote Originally Posted by NichG View Post
    One of the big rules of fighting dragons is, do not let them get off a full attack. If this means you don't get to full attack, so be it. Basically, you have to be prepared to have a way to get out of the dragon's reach if you're melee, or attack from outside of it somehow. This may mean coordinating with another PC to teleport/etc you out, though thats obviously costly on actions.

    The 12d10 breath isn't so bad if you know you're going to be facing a dragon and know what type, since its always some kind of energy type and you can just prepare resistances appropriately.
    Wait, most DMs don't give their dragons breath weapon substitution/admixture? Maybe my players have a reason for being angry at me.

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    Default Re: how to deal with a dragons high attack roll

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuulvheysoon View Post
    Wait, most DMs don't give their dragons breath weapon substitution/admixture? Maybe my players have a reason for being angry at me.
    Haha, in the games I've played, all my dragons are always highly proud of their element and consider others far inferior, never deigning to substitute mighty fire for a piddling chilly breeze.

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    Default Re: how to deal with a dragons high attack roll

    Also, just going to point this out...

    12d10 averages to 66 damage.

    Even without the reflex for half, a level 14 character should be able to absorb that. (Assuming minimum of d4 HD & 14 CON, a wizard should have at least 74hp. More when you factor in empowered false life, hero's feast, CON boosting items, etc).

    If your dragon wastes one of its rounds on an attack that is
    A.) Probably not going to hit everyone [note: SPREAD OUT, but not out of delay death/buff range]
    B.) Has a fairly easy save
    C.) Won't kill anyone at 14th level...

    Then your dragon isn't being played intelligently and you should be fine
    Last edited by mregecko; 2013-07-09 at 06:30 PM.

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    Default Re: how to deal with a dragons high attack roll

    Quote Originally Posted by Nettlekid View Post
    Haha, in the games I've played, all my dragons are always highly proud of their element and consider others far inferior, never deigning to substitute mighty fire for a piddling chilly breeze.
    You've obviously never met a red dragon painted white living in an ice cave. Or a white dragon painted red living in a volcano. They use Bluff and breath weapon substitution to make you think they are actually whatever color they're painted.
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    Also, the rock will probably be lighter than the Shrieker, allowing it to be used as a improvised thrown weapon should the need arise.

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    Default Re: how to deal with a dragons high attack roll

    Quote Originally Posted by Vedhin View Post
    You've obviously never met a red dragon painted white living in an ice cave. Or a white dragon painted red living in a volcano. They use Bluff and breath weapon substitution to make you think they are actually whatever color they're painted.
    A mighty Red Dragon is far too proud to lower itself to behaving like a common White! And the barbaric, slovenly, and remarkably unintelligent White Dragons coming up with a scheme as cunning as that, unthinkable.

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    Default Re: how to deal with a dragons high attack roll

    Quote Originally Posted by Nettlekid View Post
    A mighty Red Dragon is far too proud to lower itself to behaving like a common White! And the barbaric, slovenly, and remarkably unintelligent White Dragons coming up with a scheme as cunning as that, unthinkable.
    White dragons aren't that unintelligent. Once they hit adult, they are as smart as your average human. Juveniles are only slightly unintelligent (Intelligence 8). If humans can disguise themselves, then so can dragons.

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    Default Re: how to deal with a dragons high attack roll

    Immunity to fire, fire resistance, evasion and imp. evasion are all answers to breath weapons.

    Answers to attacks, as has been mentioned, miss chance (potions of improved invis?), not letting it get a get full attacks, etc.

    Another option, optimize AC! Do you have a druid and a wizard? If not, just pay for buffs. Druid has Enhancement to your existing natural armor bonus spells (barkskin is one, I think), in addition to enhancement bonus to natural armor. So a +5 barkskin and another nat armor +5 spell is +10. Upgrade items for a few more, an animated +1 heavy shield is another 4 AC (screw mithral, this one doesn't even touch that casters arm!) a druid can get high nat armor in wildshape, hell, a wildshape druid can consistently stun him most rounds, probably.

    Then there's Combat Expertise, fighting defensively, PrC (if you can take a level before facing him) for Con or Wis to AC (can get con to AC at least twice).

    My level 12 wildshaping druid got low 70s AC (granted, after extensive research so that I could prove my DM wrong in tanking his made-to-loose encounter, took one all-day buff, 2 12 hour buffs, 1 10 minute buff and the first 2 rounds of combat buffing, so scrying was key). My level 15 fighter had 52 AC, so straight tanking a dragon is possible.

    Although I have to say, the best defense, is a good offense. Do you have an ubercharger to charge it for about 100 damage? 200-250 if he is optimized and a little lucky with good rolls? A wizard to do a save-or-suck debuff? a cleric that can do another save-or-suck debuff? Or maybe several casters that can do a save-or-die, on 3 or 4 saves, the odds of losing 1 are much higher.
    Last edited by Immabozo; 2013-07-09 at 07:13 PM.
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    Certainly if you have magic, or magic items that specify that is how that goes, it does. why? Because MAGIC! Does that mean that is how that works in general? Well, the same way that a wizard cast a finger of death on something and that means that whatever he points at must make a save or die. Well, I guess thats ok, cause in D&D, death doesn't stop them from living.
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    Default Re: how to deal with a dragons high attack roll

    Don't use spells that have saves on dragons. It's not worth the spell slots and actions.

    Unless you can guarantee very high DCs.
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    Default Re: how to deal with a dragons high attack roll

    Quote Originally Posted by Nettlekid View Post
    A mighty Red Dragon is far too proud to lower itself to behaving like a common White! And the barbaric, slovenly, and remarkably unintelligent White Dragons coming up with a scheme as cunning as that, unthinkable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeraa View Post
    White dragons aren't that unintelligent. Once they hit adult, they are as smart as your average human. Juveniles are only slightly unintelligent (Intelligence 8). If humans can disguise themselves, then so can dragons.
    Agreed. Methinks that in your games, you play up the arrogance and superiority complex that dragons (can) have, while others (like Jeraa and myself) play up their (usually) formidable intellects.

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    Default Re: how to deal with a dragons high attack roll

    Quote Originally Posted by Immabozo View Post
    Druid has Enhancement to your existing natural armor bonus spells (barkskin is one, I think), in addition to enhancement bonus to natural armor. So a +5 barkskin and another nat armor +5 spell is +10. Upgrade items for a few more, an animated +1 heavy shield is another 4 AC (screw mithral, this one doesn't even touch that casters arm!)
    For what it's worth, while AC pumping is a valid tactic (that requires, generally, moderate to significant investment for most characters), these suggestions aren't so great. Enhancement bonuses to natural armor do not stack with themselves, and animated shields explicitly still have ASF and ACP just as normal. Alter self or polymorph into something with high NA is a good base for then barkskinning it, though. Further effort depends on getting deflection and armor bonuses (such as (greater) luminous armor for casters), and maybe stacking up other miscellaneous boosts like defending weapons.
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    Default Re: how to deal with a dragons high attack roll

    Quote Originally Posted by Nettlekid View Post
    Haha, in the games I've played, all my dragons are always highly proud of their element and consider others far inferior, never deigning to substitute mighty fire for a piddling chilly breeze.
    Sorry if this has been stated already, but that's consistent at least with the red dragon mindset. They're convinced of their own superiority, and insanely proud. Blues are smarter, but still they're dragons, and all dragons consider themselves to be the superior life form.

    To the OP, if a party member can become a dragon him/herself, that might help

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    Default Re: how to deal with a dragons high attack roll

    Quote Originally Posted by Nettlekid View Post
    Haha, in the games I've played, all my dragons are always highly proud of their element and consider others far inferior, never deigning to substitute mighty fire for a piddling chilly breeze.
    I said that wrong, didn't I? I meant WITH a breeze, not FOR a breeze. Oops.

    Quote Originally Posted by ericp65 View Post
    To the OP, if a party member can become a dragon him/herself, that might help
    And I think this is excellent advice. Especially for Epic levels, Shapechanging into a Wyrming Force or Prismatic Dragon is one of the best ways to negate all the power of that same dragon against you.
    Last edited by Nettlekid; 2013-07-09 at 08:17 PM.

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    Default Re: how to deal with a dragons high attack roll

    Well, the easiest way is, like others have suggested, not get hit in the first place. The various miss chance spells are nice for that.

    Also, make sure you move around (either flight or teleport, or both) to keep it from Full-Attacks.

    Range is your best option, especially ranged touch attacks (dragons are the perfect opponents for the infamous Orb of … spells.
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    Default Re: how to deal with a dragons high attack roll

    Quote Originally Posted by tuggyne View Post
    For what it's worth, while AC pumping is a valid tactic (that requires, generally, moderate to significant investment for most characters), these suggestions aren't so great. Enhancement bonuses to natural armor do not stack with themselves, and animated shields explicitly still have ASF and ACP just as normal. Alter self or polymorph into something with high NA is a good base for then barkskinning it, though. Further effort depends on getting deflection and armor bonuses (such as (greater) luminous armor for casters), and maybe stacking up other miscellaneous boosts like defending weapons.
    True, enhancement bonuses do not stack, but a wording peculiar to some of the druid +NA spells is that it is "An enhancement bonus, to your existing natural armor bonus" now, unless I wildly misunderstand the wording, I believe that is an enhancement bonus, to an enhancement bonus, making the two "stack"

    Not that this is game breaking, nor is it cheese (might be a little pedantic, on the scale of cheese, this isn't even that orange plastic "cheese" they call American cheese, the ones in the peel-able plastic wrappers we got in our lunches as kids), I think you can get a +8 enhancement to NA and a +5 enhancement bonus, to the NA enhancement bonus.

    But in the game of stacking AC, there is a good large difference between 35 and 40.

    I didn't know that about the shield keeping the ASF, thanks for correcting me.

    EDIT: On second thought (a brand new player vs a, now, year and a half experienced player) doubts what I said now and would not be surprised to be wrong.
    Last edited by Immabozo; 2013-07-09 at 09:30 PM.
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    Certainly if you have magic, or magic items that specify that is how that goes, it does. why? Because MAGIC! Does that mean that is how that works in general? Well, the same way that a wizard cast a finger of death on something and that means that whatever he points at must make a save or die. Well, I guess thats ok, cause in D&D, death doesn't stop them from living.
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    Default Re: how to deal with a dragons high attack roll

    Quote Originally Posted by Immabozo View Post
    True, enhancement bonuses do not stack, but a wording peculiar to some of the druid +NA spells is that it is "An enhancement bonus, to your existing natural armor bonus" now, unless I wildly misunderstand the wording, I believe that is an enhancement bonus, to an enhancement bonus, making the two "stack"

    Not that this is game breaking, nor is it cheese (might be a little pedantic, on the scale of cheese, this isn't even that orange plastic "cheese" they call American cheese, the ones in the peel-able plastic wrappers we got in our lunches as kids), I think you can get a +8 enhancement to NA and a +5 enhancement bonus, to the NA enhancement bonus.

    But in the game of stacking AC, there is a good large difference between 35 and 40.

    I didn't know that about the shield keeping the ASF, thanks for correcting me.

    EDIT: On second thought (a brand new player vs a, now, year and a half experienced player) doubts what I said now and would not be surprised to be wrong.
    The two enhancement bonuses don't stack. You can't enhance an enhancement with an enhancement. Enhancement.

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    Default Re: how to deal with a dragons high attack roll

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuulvheysoon View Post
    The two enhancement bonuses don't stack. You can't enhance an enhancement with an enhancement. Enhancement.
    I thought (when I was new) that that is what it said.

    But now, I am not surprised to be wrong. Thanks!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Immabozo View Post
    Certainly if you have magic, or magic items that specify that is how that goes, it does. why? Because MAGIC! Does that mean that is how that works in general? Well, the same way that a wizard cast a finger of death on something and that means that whatever he points at must make a save or die. Well, I guess thats ok, cause in D&D, death doesn't stop them from living.
    Quote Originally Posted by eggynack View Post
    Barbarians are sweet at first level, especially if the main goal is indiscriminate murder.

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    Default Re: how to deal with a dragons high attack roll

    Quote Originally Posted by Nettlekid View Post
    A mighty Red Dragon is far too proud to lower itself to behaving like a common White! And the barbaric, slovenly, and remarkably unintelligent White Dragons coming up with a scheme as cunning as that, unthinkable.
    ....hahahahaha. Funny mortal.
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    Default Re: how to deal with a dragons high attack roll

    Quote Originally Posted by Spuddles View Post
    Don't use spells that have saves on dragons. It's not worth the spell slots and actions.

    Unless you can guarantee very high DCs.
    Nitpick: Don't use spells which are completely negated by a save on dragons. If you can tricks to get off two spells like Ray of Exhaustion, then wham, you got an exhausted dragon, save or no save. Or you have an exhausted dragon and an extra action, if you get lucky and it fails its first save. Don't, however, use spells which are completely negated by saves, like charm monster.

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    Default Re: how to deal with a dragons high attack roll

    It's one of those things were the difficulty of a Dragon depends almost entirely on how the guy DMing plays them up. I mean, by the time you're dealing with Dragons like your OP example, they've faced CENTURIES of Adventurer's trying to kill them. And were smarter, tougher, and faster than them all. They have spellcasting, they are tough beasts. If your DM is really playing them up well... no. Just go home. You're not going to go into HIS turf, the place he's probably killed THOUSANDS of people just like you, and has centuries of experience defending, and be the one group that somehow has it all figured out.

    Dragons are, or should be, one of the most "Paranoid, optimized, overcautious" things in a campaign. Racial memory, long lives, spellcasting, a bunch of powers, always some group of mere mortals looking to kill them... if your Adventurers are of the Paranoid Contingency types, your Dragons should be 10 times as much.

    ... sadly most people don't really play up dragons like that. They make them complacent, stupid, the fact that they have 16 int somehow means they act like a rabid dog of 1 Int... for some reason... that tends to happen. Note the "Stupid" thing above about White Dragons. 8 int is a "Normal" range of intelligence for a humanoid. You wouldn't think of them as stupid. But dragon with 8 int? They act like it's amazing that they can figure out how not to keep running into their cave walls over and over. Note also that a Familiar with 8 int is often treated like a super genius (Or at least above average human intelligence) even though it's only average. *shrug* It's the weirdness of perceptions. I blame the dragon thing on fantasy authors, like the White Dragon in Dragons of Winter's Night... who was too stupid to figure out "Hmm... humans on a ship that cannot actually hurt me. I could kill them and retrieve the dragon orb as ordered with no risk".

    Your worst fear really isn't the Full Attack of Smashing. It's not even being given the chance to use your Action Economy on them. Note that most of the high powered spells that people suggest against dragons don't have that much range. A dragon can just be coasting along, flying outside of spell range, maybe go drop rocks on you or the like... do a power dive and breath weapon strafe you before climbing again...

    If you're only worried about the BAB. Your DM probably isn't making tough dragons, or you have dumb "MMO AI" mob enemies. So I wouldn't worry too much. You WANT the dragon to try to melee you all. Get in range where your wizard can just drain it's Dex away, or you can flank and cut it apart, etc.

    Oh. And watch out for that breath weapon. I know people are saying that the average is only 66 so you can probably take one to the face, no problem... but that's JUST high enough to trigger the "Death from Massive Damage" rules. You probably will pass that saving throw... it's only DC15... but plenty of people have been laid low by it.
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    Default Re: how to deal with a dragons high attack roll

    Quote Originally Posted by Immabozo View Post
    True, enhancement bonuses do not stack, but a wording peculiar to some of the druid +NA spells is that it is "An enhancement bonus, to your existing natural armor bonus" now, unless I wildly misunderstand the wording, I believe that is an enhancement bonus, to an enhancement bonus, making the two "stack"
    It's an enhancement bonus to a natural armor bonus. No more, no less. Just like the amulet of natural armor.

    So far as I know, there are no enhancement bonuses to enhancement bonuses; the system simply does not use that level of indirection.
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    Default Re: how to deal with a dragons high attack roll

    Group makeup is as follows: rogue, necromacer, ranger, fighter, and a homebrew alchemist which basically throws gerandes and uses rod of wonder on every atack. It is a bad group make up but we have 3-4 toons and were asked individually away from the others which one we would use for this campaign. We were also promised that which ever toon we brought would be given the chance to complete one goal of his choice.

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    Default Re: how to deal with a dragons high attack roll

    Quote Originally Posted by ArcturusV View Post
    Dragons are, or should be, one of the most "Paranoid, optimized, overcautious" things in a campaign. Racial memory, long lives, spellcasting, a bunch of powers, always some group of mere mortals looking to kill them... if your Adventurers are of the Paranoid Contingency types, your Dragons should be 10 times as much.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kymme View Post
    You've got good reasoning, though the Akastarepti is never the best example.

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    Default Re: how to deal with a dragons high attack roll

    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowFireLance View Post
    ....hahahahaha. Funny mortal.
    Actually, he's right. The red might be worth some scheming, but whites are quite dumb. It'd be kind of like a DM using OoC knowledge for it to try anything that would work.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
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    Default Re: how to deal with a dragons high attack roll

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    Actually, he's right. The red might be worth some scheming, but whites are quite dumb. It'd be kind of like a DM using OoC knowledge for it to try anything that would work.
    On the other hand, the White Dragon has a lot of experience being a dragon and potentially dealing with people trying to kill it. That's potentially really good training. The PCs might be more like amateurs at dragon-killing, even if they are much more intelligent.

    Experience and skill can make up for a lot. Intelligence sometimes needs to play catchup before it is superior.

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