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Thread: 4 Ed Elf preview
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2007-12-21, 01:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4 Ed Elf preview
How about this: the elf guides the party in how to keep watchful. Designates a visual search pattern. Or, they have an air of watchfulness that inspires others to be the same way. Or, they have a pseudo-magical aura. Maybe they produce a pheromone that affects the parts of the brain that processes perception in others nearby. Maybe it's an effect of an herb that elves smoke as part of a cultural ritual. The +1 is due to second-hand smoke.
Yeah, lots of fluffy reasons you could put on it. Personally, I like the idea of psychotropic elves over hippie elves, but whatever suits your fancy.
You know, i think this is a bad combination of trying to make all characters team players without making them use actions to do so, and trying to put logical limits on it.
Well, first off, that 'all in the warband' approach works in small scale encounters (as typically seen in minis), but not so well for larger scale activities. For instance, if the elf gets separated fro the group, the ability shouldn't apply.
Here's the big distinction: elf and non-elf go scouting down the hall. The non-elf scout gets the perception bonus. the rest of the party does not get the bonus, should something come sneaking up behind them.
Now, if you want to houserule it for simplicity's sake, go for it.
Ew, houserules on a system that hasn't been finished yet. Maybe we should avoid that for now...
Yeah, I do agree with you there. Though, I would be leary about making it encounter-based, as perception is one thing that is definitively useful outside of an encounter.Last edited by fendrin; 2007-12-21 at 01:52 PM.
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2007-12-21, 02:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4 Ed Elf preview
No one is saying you should necessarily like it. I haven't liked everything about it, nor do I expect anyone to. I haven't been very vocal about my likes or dislikes myself. I don't think there is a game system that is perfect for anyone's needs, but they are working on a best-fit. This seems to support my best-fit so far. Sorry if I seemed a bit blunt with my other post (or even this one).
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2007-12-21, 02:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4 Ed Elf preview
Meh. I don't much like how there aren't racial penalties anymore, since I think that gave the races a lot of their flavor. It just seems weird for all races to be all beneficial.
They're definitely making the elves basically all wood elves. I guess I'm glad that they're splitting off the elves and eladrin, if only because it means we won't have tons of subraces that have nothing in common except pointy ears and "[adjective or environment] elf" in their names.
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2007-12-21, 02:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4 Ed Elf preview
I'll give you a great case against racial penalties: It starts with Half and ends with Orc.
Orcs and Half-Orcs got screwed because they were strong. Then people avoided playing them and found they could make better builds without them.
I admit though, one thing that bothers me about the all positives thing is that it almost forces you to go point buy. It's almost like they are balancing against point buy... however if *everything* is equally strong, then I guess it doesn't matter.
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2007-12-21, 03:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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2007-12-21, 03:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4 Ed Elf preview
My group house-ruled that they get +2 Con as well to be balanced. Elves have -2 Con, Dwarves have -2 Cha, etc., and they're balanced. Drawbacks and advantages should come out equal.
And, though I really like point buy, you're right that they're balancing towards it, and that annoys me a bit. Along with the increasing focus on squares and positioning and whatever the hell that online resource thing they've been talking about is, it seems to me like 4e is going to have a much bigger emphasis on standardizing how to play.
May I sig that?
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2007-12-21, 03:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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2007-12-21, 03:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4 Ed Elf preview
Point taken, but at least meters means something outside of the game, though I always thought it was funny that PC's can automatically know the exact distance of their adversaries at all times. I think I'd have a hell of time knowing if the guy charging me was 30' away or 35' away. So I guess squares are as good as anything.
Point Conceeded.Custom avatar thanks to Abardam.
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Chuang-tzu
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2007-12-21, 03:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4 Ed Elf preview
So, if there is an elf disguised as a human in the group people should find it out because they are more perceptive now? :)
And what happen if he is asleep or unconscious? the group get the bonus all the same?
Yeah, it is wonky, but if you want to play 4e is better than you get used to it, it is just a hint of course, but I have the strong impression that in 4e fluff come after crunch, i.e. first they come up with a mechanic, then they come up with some kind of explanation for it, and if the explanation don't work well, patience, it just mean that "a wizard did it". This is not the first time we have seen it, even late 3.x had the same problem but it seem that here are taking it a step further.I don't make the crazy rules, I just twist them to my purpose
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2007-12-21, 04:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4 Ed Elf preview
The only place I think it really matters, is the place the mighty Wizards are aiming for; the hearts and minds of the player. People who played half-orcs, even a good build, always felt like they were getting ripped off. By going all positive you are much more likely to make people feel better about their choices, whatever that choice may be. So even if it is balanced exactly the same way as 3rd edition was, it will alter the way you see the game by not having any penalties.
Balance matters less in a game of this scope anyway, with a DM who can shift things to balance out a problem anyway... Well Assuming you have a competent DM of course.
@Sebastian
As for the elf having his own version of an Aura of Competence, my guess would be it is an active thing. If the elf is asleep it probably doesn't work, and if the elf is pretending not to be an elf it may not work. Though if a human has something similar (or all races have something similar) it does make disguise much harder.Custom avatar thanks to Abardam.
A perfect argument does not employ words. -
Chuang-tzu
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2007-12-21, 04:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4 Ed Elf preview
I like what I see, though it doesn’t completely alleviate my fears about 4.0.
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2007-12-21, 04:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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2007-12-21, 04:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4 Ed Elf preview
Heh, these new elves seem to be a lot more humane. Which I like, as I've always bugged myself on any race that, as a rascial charastic seem to have insufferable arrogance hard-coded into their spines.
Thank alot for that one Tolkien...Totally getting something nice here, when the time is right that is.
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2007-12-21, 04:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4 Ed Elf preview
I think people are missing one big thing about this article, no mention of alignment. There was no "elves favor the Chaotic Good alignment becuase of blah blah blah."
Now this doesn't mean that aignment is completley out, but I think it means that it will take a lesser priority, which in my opinion is a good thing. Hopefully we won't see the stupid alignment restrictions on classes either.
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2007-12-22, 02:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4 Ed Elf preview
Maybe I'm not remembering correctly, but didn't they say in some older preview that races we're going to get abilities as they grew in level so that your race actually mattered after creation?
This preview, to me, doesn't seem to be like that. Sure you've always got that +1 to Perception and the re-roll once per encounter, but it doesn't mention actually gaining (or even improving) abilities at higher levels. Maybe, as someone said, characters will get some bonus racial feats as they grow or something like that, but as of now this seems... well, not as much difference as I expected.
I sort of thought that each race would have a progression like a class, or (for a better example) like the spell-like abilities of some templates, which are gained by HD. Elves, for instance, would start with extra proficiencies and the alertness bonus, gain a speed boost around 3rd level, get the accuracy thing at maybe 5th or so, and then those would improve or others would be added every few levels.
Maybe I'm wrong, but what this preview says to me is that they're not really changing as much as I previously thought. The ideas and terms, yes. The mechanics? Not so much, besides abilities being per [round/encounter/day] instead of just per day.
Other than that, though, it looks decent. I'm looking forward to getting the Races and Classes book at some point soon, so I'm hoping it'll have more info (though probably not).The Playgrounder Formerly Known as rtg0922
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2007-12-22, 03:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4 Ed Elf preview
Or he couldn't reveal everything in that article. Or maybe you get a new racial feat every couple levels, allowing you to "customize" your elf.
And Races and Classes is mostly fluff, no hard crunch, and lots of explaining. Still good to read tough.
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2007-12-22, 05:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4 Ed Elf preview
Not specifically about this preview, but... let me get something straight. The Elves, the fey who have been expelled from the perfect hippie paradise of the Feywild, are all arboreal and huntery and illiterate, while the Eladrin, the ones who stayed, are all bookish and living in towers and casting spells? How does that make sense, except in a 'boy, these Elves must be compensating for something' way?
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2007-12-22, 05:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4 Ed Elf preview
It just dawned on me:
No mention of trance or immunity to sleep effects. No bonus vs. Enchantment (probably due to lack of schools). Hm.
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2007-12-22, 05:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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2007-12-22, 06:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4 Ed Elf preview
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2007-12-22, 06:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4 Ed Elf preview
Not that it matters in the slightest in actual play, but I notice that elf maximum age is "over 200", whereas (a long time ago) it used to be "about 650"...
Oh and yeah, getting a "racial bonus" because somebody of a different race is nearby is silly, and it's probably one of those things that people will forget and that won't matter anyway since it's only a +1.
Haley: Elf senses tingling! There's a secret door over there!
Vaarsuvius: How can you have elf senses, you are a human, for crying out loud!
Haley: That's because you are standing next to me.
Vaarsuvius: And how can you be sensing something with my elf senses when I don't notice any portals around here at all? ARGH!Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.
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2007-12-22, 06:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4 Ed Elf preview
I think that was all related to the fluff of elves being naturally magical, and thus will translate over to the Eladrin.
Originally Posted by Durendal
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2007-12-22, 07:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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2007-12-22, 07:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4 Ed Elf preview
I actually expect that they'll be like Saga, they get extra skills and feats. Humans might also have some kind of racial ability that lets them reroll any one skill check for some kind of cost (an action point maybe?). That seems to fit nicely into the human as a generalist concept that D&D tends to espouse.
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2007-12-22, 09:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4 Ed Elf preview
Given the new setup, I would expect a re-roll power to be once per encounter, once per hour, or once per day.
Also, I would expect that there would be a human racial feat that gives them a +2 on the re-roll.
What is also probably way overpowered but possible is that humans can take general feats in the place of racial feats.
I also wouldn't be surprised by a human racial feat increasing their skill point bonus from 1 point per level to 2 points per level.
You know, I think humans must be the hardest race to balance, with their versatility. I mean, there's a reason that most optimized builds in 3.X seem to be made from humans.
I also hope the dragonborn can't 'carry over' any racial feats or abilities. I would hate to see 'multi-racing' be the new way to cherry-pick. I might have to re-fluff dragonborn to be born as such. Like medium-sized kobolds.
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2007-12-22, 09:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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2007-12-22, 09:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4 Ed Elf preview
In 3.5 Dragonborn are other races that become Dragonborn through a ritual. They lose their old racial abilities, keep their old racial stat mods, add the Dragonborn stat mods, and get the Dragonborn racial abilities.
I think Fendrin is under the misapprehension that 4E Dragonborn are going to work the same way. They're not; they're a race of their own.
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2007-12-22, 10:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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2007-12-22, 11:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4 Ed Elf preview
Wow, this article contains a perfect example of description/mechanical conflict. In the 'Elvish Strife, Separation, and Rebirth' article we're told that few Elves choose to become Clerics, but in the Elf mechanics we're told to choose an Elf if we want to play a Cleric, presumably because they get +2 to Wisdom...
I call shenanigans on that!Last edited by Matthew; 2007-12-22 at 11:27 PM.
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2007-12-22, 11:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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