World of Runescape (Discussion Section)

[Chained Birds]

I'm making this thread to discuss the Runescape-to-D&D stuff (Mainly for 3.P uses and not 4e). Anyone can join in and aid with the world building stuff if they feel they have anything to contribute.

If you are unfamiliar with Runescape, I'll direct you to the wiki in the Link below.
Runescape

Discussion Topic 1
What will be the 9 Primary Gods? And what domains and alignments will they reprecent?

Discussion Topic 2
How to work Runes into D&D spellcasting.

Discussion Topic 3
Translating and pricing Runescape weapons, items, etc. to D&D.

Discussion Topic 4
What feats and/or rules changes will be made to satisfy the above?

These are but a few discussion ideas I've come up with to set things up. Feel free to comment and post your ideas upon this subject.

[Dusk Eclipse]

One think that I like about the Runescape mythology is that it is not as set in stone as other game world; there is a big "History is written by winners" vibe going on; but here are my guesses about aligment

Sarandomin: Dude's LAWFUL Good

Guthix: True Neutral, there is no other option

Zamorak: Chaotic Evil, the more controlled kind I guess..

Bandos: CHAOTIC Neutral, he only cares about war.

Armadyll: Lawful neutral I think.. I really don't know much about him...

Zaros: So far he seems militaristic and it is called evil by almost all the other guys..but I don't think he might be evil.


Which are the other gods you are thinking about? Those 6 are the main ones I can recall unless you are thinking on including the Desert Pantheon, and the Elves, Gnomes, Monkeys, etc.

[Chained Birds]

My God list was:

LG - Armadyl (God of Justice)
NG - Saradomin (God of Order)
CG - Seren (Godess of Elves)
LN - Jas (Elder God of Creation)
NN - Guthix (God of Balance)
CN - Marimbo (God of Monkeys)
LE - Zaros the Empty Lord (God of Defilement)
NE - Zamorak (God of Chaos)
CE - Bandos (God of War)

I personally don't believe the bottom 3 to be evil, but the quests and history seems to point these guys at being not-so-nice and whose followers tend to take pleasure in killing others. Though it was a tough decision.

And Marimbo... well... I placed him there because I really didn't want to have any of the desert ones on this list. Seren was also kinda just a place-holder until I could find a better canidate, but nothing popped up.

I wanted Saradomin and Zamorak to be opposites to represent their ovious hatred of each other. This is somewhat true with how I matched the relationship between Armadyl and Zaros.

Bandos felt chaotic in nature, and only got the evil verdict due to his followers (Goblins, Ogres, Orks, etc).

Jas was a close second to TN, but I'm glad we are agreed that Guthix is the most neutral god here.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I see... well as I said I don't think that Zaros is Evil...but I am a Zarosian myself so there might be some bias.

I also find weird that you put the self proclaimed God of Chaos as a Neutral Evil god. think you are trying to have the gods correspond to every alignment on the wheel; but I don't think that is necessary considering there is the one step alignment rule for clerics.

This might help; but I disagree on some of their proposed alignments though..

[Chained Birds]

I was simply trying to corrispond 9 gods to the 9 alignments. I figure that one's personality can be completely different from their aligment at times, so there wouldn't be too much trouble and people could skim over the alignment of each god and go "I guess that works."

Though having Zamorak not be chaotically aligned is a bit blasphemous.

How do these changes look?

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LG - Saradomin
NG - Seren
CG - Armadyl
LN - same
NN - same
CN - same
LE - same
NE - Bandos
CE - Zamorak

But if I were'nt trying to go 9 for 9, I'd probably have only neutrally aligned gods as Runescape tends to make the gods both ambiguous and having mixed morals at times. Here is a more non-9 entry:

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NG - Seren
LN - Armadyl, Saradomin
N - Jas, Guthix
CN - Zamorak, Bandos, Marimbo
LE - Zaros

Side note: I'm more of a Guthix follower myself.

[Chained Birds]

What are your thoughts on domains and favored weapons?

[Edited]For me:

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Zamorak
FW = Spear
D: Chaos, Luck, Fire, Evil

Saradomin
FW = Longsword
D: Sun, Law

Seren
FW = Longbow
D: Healing, Protection

Bandos
FW = Greataxe/Greathammer
D: Destruction, Strength, War, Earth

Zaros
FW = Quarterstaff
D: Evil, Law, Trickery

Guthix
FW: Sickle
D: Air, Earth, Water, Fire, Plant

Armadyl
FW: Greatsword
D: Air, Good, Inquisition, Glory

Jas
FW:
D: Magic, Force

Marimbo
FW:
D: Knowledge, Animal

I would put more domains for some, but I'm limited to the srd at the moment.
And I'm a little stuck on some of the Favored Weapon (FW) stuff...

[super dark33]

Well, i think more of:
Zamorak: FW Spear : Chaos, Evil, Fire,Destruction dimains
Bandos:FW Greataxe/Greathammer (same stats, diffrent damage type, and also because his followers cant figure it out themselves {goblin diplomacy}) :
Strength , War , Chaos , Earth domains .
Aramadyl:Fw greatsword : Air, law , Glory, inquisition domains.
Saradomin:FW longsword : Law, Good , knowledge ,sun domains
Zaros:FW querterstaff : Evil, Destruction, Force, Law domains
Guthix: FW sickle : Earth, water, air, fire domains :

[Dusk Eclipse]

I'd say Sarandomin is more of a Bastard sword as her commander in the GWD uses it one-handed; but the player must use it two handed.

For Bandos I think heavy mace might be a better option (as per the Granite Mace in the Chosen Commander Quest)

[super dark33]

its a longsword for the commander, as she is large size.
for medium creatures its a greatsword.

[Dusk Eclipse]

You are thinking of 3.0 rules, in 3.5 a large longsword is that a large longsword, a medium creature won't be able to use is as a greatsword in fact they would take a -4 penalty.

[Chained Birds]

super dark33: I like the Greathammer/Greatsword deal for Bandos's FW; and while I accept the Spear sounds fitting for Zamorak, I still believe his FW should be a Crossbow due to there being a Zamorak Crossbow.

Dusk Eclipse: I see your point about the Bastard Sword as many followers (I believe the White Knights) hold 2 handed swords which could be translated to Bastard Swords.

I'll revise my previous post to showcase my new thoughts on these matters and to include/remove a few domains to the list.

[super dark33]

super dark33: I like the Greathammer/Greatsword deal for Bandos's FW; and while I accept the Spear sounds fitting for Zamorak, I still believe his FW should be a Crossbow due to there being a Zamorak Crossbow.

Dusk Eclipse: I see your point about the Bastard Sword as many followers (I believe the White Knights) hold 2 handed swords which could be translated to Bastard Swords.

I'll revise my previous post to showcase my new thoughts on these matters and to include/remove a few domains to the list.

There is also a zamorak spear Yknow.
and favourd weapons shouldnt be exostic weapons, as of war domain its just a free feat.

[Chained Birds]

There is also a zamorak spear Yknow.
and favourd weapons shouldnt be exostic weapons, as of war domain its just a free feat.

I see your point.

How about Jas and Marimbo's FWs?

Jas = mysterious being, hinted as the true creator of runes and magic.

Marimbo: being who brought intelligence to the inhabitants of Ape Toll.

[gooddragon1]

Spells with material components and you can substitute for some runes with a staff. Slots become unimportant. Alternatively using a point system and causing certain runes to cost more points than others. Scaling damage based on stats or CL? Staves in the second case eliminate point cost for other runes.

Pricing: Use the high alch cost of weapons for the most part or make a non-gold currency which is easier to attain than gold in normal D&D. Money making activities with a certain amount per hour.

[Chained Birds]

Spells with material components and you can substitute for some runes with a staff. Slots become unimportant. Alternatively using a point system and causing certain runes to cost more points than others. Scaling damage based on stats or CL? Staves in the second case eliminate point cost for other runes.

Pricing: Use the high alch cost of weapons for the most part or make a non-gold currency which is easier to attain than gold in normal D&D. Money making activities with a certain amount per hour.

One suggestion, brought up by Dusk Eclipse in another thread, was to keep all spells at their minimums to cast (like a bought Scroll) regardless of the Ability Score of the caster or his/her CL. Some X runes would be used to increase spells to the caster level while other Y runes can be used to increase the ability score (starting at minimum requirement score) to the maximum of the caster's current CL and casting ability score.

Example: lvl 8 Wizard with 18int casts Fireball.
- Without runes: The fireball deals 5d6 fire damage, with a reflex save of 13 for half.
Cost = 0 runes
- With runes: The fireball deals 8d6 fire damage, withe a reflex save of 16 for half.
Cost = 5 [blank] runes to increase the ability score from 13 -> 18; and 3 [blank] runes to increase the CL from 5 -> 8.

Any thoughts on this method?

[gooddragon1]

One suggestion, brought up by Dusk Eclipse in another thread, was to keep all spells at their minimums to cast (like a bought Scroll) regardless of the Ability Score of the caster or his/her CL. Some X runes would be used to increase spells to the caster level while other Y runes can be used to increase the ability score (starting at minimum requirement score) to the maximum of the caster's current CL and casting ability score.

Example: lvl 8 Wizard with 18int casts Fireball.
- Without runes: The fireball deals 5d6 fire damage, with a reflex save of 13 for half.
Cost = 0 runes
- With runes: The fireball deals 8d6 fire damage, withe a reflex save of 16 for half.
Cost = 5 [blank] runes to increase the ability score from 13 -> 18; and 3 [blank] runes to increase the CL from 5 -> 8.

Any thoughts on this method?

Normal spell slots then? Unless you don't plan on limiting casting.

Personally (and the way RS works) I'd say that your "Magic Level" determines the power of the effect up to a maximum damage cap. What limits spell use is the requirement of runes. If you want to limit runes to a hard cap I'd definitely go with a point system. GP costing runes might work strangely.

[Dusk Eclipse]

super dark33: I like the Greathammer/Greatsword deal for Bandos's FW; and while I accept the Spear sounds fitting for Zamorak, I still believe his FW should be a Crossbow due to there being a Zamorak Crossbow.

Dusk Eclipse: I see your point about the Bastard Sword as many followers (I believe the White Knights) hold 2 handed swords which could be translated to Bastard Swords.

I'll revise my previous post to showcase my new thoughts on these matters and to include/remove a few domains to the list.

Zamorak Crossbow?... I don't know about it I only know about the God Bows from the Treasure Trials (which have one for the big 3), if you are thinking on the Chaotic Crossbow (and weaponry in general) they are not aligned with Zamorak in any form AFAIK.

[Chained Birds]

Zamorak Crossbow?... I don't know about it I only know about the God Bows from the Treasure Trials (which have one for the big 3), if you are thinking on the Chaotic Crossbow (and weaponry in general) they are not aligned with Zamorak in any form AFAIK.

Then Spear it is, and I hope my reiteration of your rune idea was done well. I so far find it a fair way to have runes used in d&d magic without crippling mages at lower levels.

[Chained Birds]

I would also like to bring up the important subject of "What runes are used to do what," "How much gp/sp do they cost," and "how many?"
Here is a list of the runes presented in Runescape.

Runes List:

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Air
Earth
Water
Fire
Mind
Chaos
Death
Blood
Body
Soul
Cosmic
Nature
Law
Astral

Other runes:

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Dust
Mud
Mist
Smoke
Steam
Lava

And here is a list of all the spell schools and sub-schools presented in the srd.

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Abjuction
Conjuration
- Calling
- Healing
- Teleportation
- Creation
- Summoning
Divination
- Scrying
Enchantment
- Charm
- Compultion
Evocation
Illusion
- Figment
- Glamer
- Pattern
- Phantasm
- Shadow
Necromancy
Transmutation

Before we set prices, I'd like to first see others thoughts on what runes can corrispond to each school and/or sub-school. Also, please inform me if there are any schools or sub-schools missing on this list.

[Edit] I'm still working on my rune thing at the moment

[Machinekng]

I actually once tried to make up a Runescape campaign setting, when I ran some 4e for my brother.

I had set the setting a few hundred years after the current time, in the Sixth Age, the Age of Doubt, after a second cataclysm, caused by the culmination of the Dragonkin wars when the Orb of Jas and the Staff of Amdrayl were used in conjunction by the Hero of Legend (i.e. the player character), to destroy the attempting to dominate Gileanor.

Two hundred years later, Lumbridge has sunk into the enchroacing swamp, Varrock has been drowned, and Falador ravaged by civil war between the White Knights and the Monarchy.

The River Salve has since dried up, allowing the dark forces of Morytania to creep back into the west. The Wilderness is no longer guarded, and a new evil stirs under the ground, threatening to devour all of Misthalin.

Not exactly what people are looking for I guess.

As for runes, I just used them to replaced material components, and had treated them as such.

Looking at the basic non-elemental runes:


Body-Transmution
Mind-Enchanment
Chaos-Evocation
Death-Necromancy
Nature-Conjuration
Cosmic-Divination
Law-Abjuration

I know it doesn't correspond with the Runescape magic system, but the names/properties of the runes themselves match.

As for Astral, Soul and Blood, I see them being special runes, possibly in exchange for expensive material components.

[Chained Birds]

I actually once tried to make up a Runescape campaign setting, when I ran some 4e for my brother.

I had set the setting a few hundred years after the current time, in the Sixth Age, the Age of Doubt, after a second cataclysm, caused by the culmination of the Dragonkin wars when the Orb of Jas and the Staff of Amdrayl were used in conjunction by the Hero of Legend (i.e. the player character), to destroy the attempting to dominate Gileanor.

Two hundred years later, Lumbridge has sunk into the enchroacing swamp, Varrock has been drowned, and Falador ravaged by civil war between the White Knights and the Monarchy.

The River Salve has since dried up, allowing the dark forces of Morytania to creep back into the west. The Wilderness is no longer guarded, and a new evil stirs under the ground, threatening to devour all of Misthalin.

Not exactly what people are looking for I guess.

As for runes, I just used them to replaced material components, and had treated them as such.

Looking at the basic non-elemental runes:


Body-Transmution
Mind-Enchanment
Chaos-Evocation
Death-Necromancy
Nature-Conjuration
Cosmic-Divination
Law-Abjuration

I know it doesn't correspond with the Runescape magic system, but the names/properties of the runes themselves match.

As for Astral, Soul and Blood, I see them being special runes, possibly in exchange for expensive material components.

Cool, I've been drawing a blank on runes-to-magic but I can see those runes working well. I'd use Astral for all Psionic based manifesting and Soul and Blood will replace expensive components like a few Soul runes for a true ressurection or wish spell, and a few Blood rune for the exp costs. If I use a PF system I wouldn't have to worry about exp costs instead use Blood as a minor Soul rune.

The only change I would make is switch Body and Nature as Nature runes perform the most transmutation on the Runescape spell list and Body doesn't seem so out of place for conjuction (giving the intangible a "Body" ).

--------------------

Personally, I use the spell system by Dusk Eclipse and use the base elements (fire, water, earth, air) to increase the base ability score and the rune system Machinekng brought up for icreasing the caster level of the spell.

Intelligence = Water
Wisdom = Earth
Charisma = Fire

Psionic's Prime Casting = Air

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But now comes the difficult part; what prices should they be?

I would say the 4 basic elements should cost between 1sp-1gp and the others (besides Blood and soul) and the others should be around the same if not more expensive; maybe 5sp-5gp?

Any suggestions?

[Machinekng]

To be honest, I don't think Psionics should be rune-based. Psionics rely on their internal mental power to manipulate matter and energy, while spell casters tap into the force of magic.

And although I do like Psionics, I somewhat question them. All mortal magic in Runescape is based on, well, runes. It's in the name of the game even. I could see Psionics as something new, slowly enchroacing into the world of Gileanor, but that would require us to modify Runescape's story.

If I was to run Runescape again, this time as a PF campaign, I would go back and use the story changes I had previously made, as I don't want to conflict with Runescape's current storylines.

Back to Runecraft:

Pricing runes is a big deal. If one sticks with a WBL concept, the rune system, that one has to pay for their shtick is very humbling for mages. Looking at scroll pricing: (without expensive material components)
0 level: 12 gp 5 sp
1st level: 25gp
2nd level: 150gp
3rd level: 375gp
4th level: 700gp
5th level: 1,125gp
6th level: 1,650gp
7th level: 2,275 gp
8th level: 3,000 gp
9th level: 3,825 gp

If we put a base line, say, 1gp to cast a 1st level spell, and keep to similar proportions with scroll price:

0 level: 5 sp
1st level: 1gp
2nd level: 6gp
3rd level: 15gp
4th level: 28gp
5th level: 45gp
6th level: 66gp
7th level: 91gp
8th level: 120gp
9th level: 153gp

The idea would be that the runes that combine to make a spell of a given level add up to somewhere around these values, adjusted for balance. For example, to make stronger spells less attractive, they could be more expensive.

If we do use a system like this, it might make more sense to combine the Sorcerer and Wizard as a single Mage class. The mage could cast any spell he knew, as long as he has (i.e. prepared) the right combinations of runes. If this isn't enough of a nerf, you could make his casting like the favored soul, with Int replacing Wis. The vancian system could be replaced by something like the spellpoint system, demonstrating the mental strength it requires to use magic. Heck, simply scape spells per day and leave the point system to the psychics. Let one's budget restrict their spell casting. It would at least do away with 15-minute working days.

As for using runes to increase the caster level of a spell, the one issue with that is that it hampers blasting much more than it hampers save-or-whatever.

[Nameless Ghost]

I'd think the simplest thing to do really is to just have runes replace material components, with rare runes exchanged for expensive components in some places.

As far as the game is concerned, while basic runes are expensive in bulk, it is a pretty trivial amount when compared to more powerful pieces of equipment. Perhaps charge mages a particular amount every day/week/month in rune costs. It's lot less hassle than individually keeping track of every rune, unless the intent is to have magic require far more micromanagement or be harder to use.

Alternative - and I quite like this as an idea - you could refluff the Words of Power mechanics and build a new mage class to take advantage of it.

There must be a means to have Craft(Runes) as a viable skill in addition to that, but I can't think of a way to make it work.

There is also the issue of RuneScape's summoning skill; does this get incorporated under (arcane) magic or given its own mechanics?

RuneScape lore spoilers

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Recent lore updates have removed the Godstaff of Armadyl and Stone of Jas as significant threats to the world's stability - the Staff was shattered as the mahjarrat Lucien died, while the player aided others to hide the Stone in a ritualised spell.

Of course, the Ritual of the Mahjarrat quest in which these events took place is rather suitable for a climatic part of a campaign.

So I would suggest a default setting is the one presented by the MMO before any quests have been completed.

[Machinekng]

I'd think the simplest thing to do really is to just have runes replace material components, with rare runes exchanged for expensive components in some places.

As far as the game is concerned, while basic runes are expensive in bulk, it is a pretty trivial amount when compared to more powerful pieces of equipment. Perhaps charge mages a particular amount every day/week/month in rune costs. It's lot less hassle than individually keeping track of every rune, unless the intent is to have magic require far more micromanagement or be harder to use.

That raises a good question.

Are we attempting to adapt the Runescape setting, or its mechanics? I do think that Rune Magic could well replace the Vancian system. It would restrict spellcasters by putting pressure on their budgets, preventing them from affording magical items, which helps those who rely on magic items (i.e. fighters).

If this is the plan, that we try to adapt the Runescape magic system.I would doaway with the stanard casters. Sorcerers and Wizards would become the Mage, while Clerics and Druids would become Acolytes, having class features and Domains to offset a smaller spell list (And great excuse to get rid of Wildshape.)

Although it woud be a headache to keep track of runes, well, it would be a price to pay for unlimited power.

All in all, you'd have fewer, less powerful mages, and when you think about, Runescape is very much lie that Although you have several enclaves of powerful wizard, the majorty of wizards are weak and easily dispatched.

Alternative - and I quite like this as an idea - you could refluff the Words of Power mechanics and build a new mage class to take advantage of it.

Intersting...

There is also the issue of RuneScape's summoning skill; does this get incorporated under (arcane) magic or given its own mechanics?

Maybe summoning spells could stay the same, but you have to prepare materials that resonate with what you're trying to summon?

RuneScape lore spoilers

Spoiler

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Recent lore updates have removed the Godstaff of Armadyl and Stone of Jas as significant threats to the world's stability - the Staff was shattered as the mahjarrat Lucien died, while the player aided others to hide the Stone in a ritualised spell.

Of course, the Ritual of the Mahjarrat quest in which these events took place is rather suitable for a climatic part of a campaign.

So I would suggest a default setting is the one presented by the MMO before any quests have been completed.

Haven't played the game for a while, to be honest, and I never really got to master quests in the first place.

Still, I like my story better.

[Chained Birds]

I was originally trying to incorporate runes into the current 3.5/PF magic system as I was too lazy to think of anything original. As stated, I like Dusk Eclipse's system the most as it allows casters to cast normally at low levels without spending much on runes and forces higher level casters to start thinking about their purchases and whether that metamagic wand is worth it or not.
And why not make casters the most micromanaging characters in the game? They are supposed to have either special training or a gift in order to cast such harbingers of death, so why not force a bit more study and thinking?

I'm not too thrilled about letting psionics off the hook just because no one likes using them in settings, and I feel having psionics as an option in a RS world would be quite cool (Though I guess pretty useless and unneeded).

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Better idea for Blood runes, they are runes used for casting metamagic. For each increase in spell level, you pay that many Blood runes.
Example: Mage has an extended Mage armor on, meaning he had to pay 1 Blood rune in addition to any other runes used to improve the spell beyond its minimum casting requirements.

----------------------

I'm not sure if splicing two casters together, like sorcerer and wizard, will be such a bad idea, but I am a fan of spontaneous casters over prepared and would prefer the 2 separate.

[Chained Birds]

Here's my first stab at prices. Psionic stuff is a little more expensive seeing as they use only 2 types of runes in their manifestation.

Earth: 5 silver pieces
Water: 5 silver pieces
Fire: 5 silver pieces
Air: 1 gold piece

Mind: 3 gold pieces
Chaos: 3 gold pieces
Death: 3 gold pieces
Cosmic: 3 gold pieces
Nature: 3 gold pieces
Law: 3 gold pieces
Astral: 3 gold pieces
Body: 5 gold pieces

Blood: 15 gold pieces
Soul: 50 gold pieces

Here is how runes play out for me

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School Runes
Nature: Transmutation
Mind: Enchantment
Chaos: Evocation
Death: Necromancy
Astral Conjuration
Cosmic: Divination
Law: Abjuration
Body: Psionic Manifestations

Ability Runes
Water: Intelligence
Earth: Wisdom
Fire: Charisma
Air: Psionic's Prime Casting Ability

Special Runes
Soul: Replaces material components
Blood: Metamagic/Metapsionic Component
- (1 per level adjustment or 1 per power point)


All spells are at their minimums, like a bought Scroll, regardless of the Ability Score of the caster or his/her own CL or ML.
School runes (Nature, Body, etc.) are used to increase the power or spell's caster/manifestor level to a maximum of the caster or manifestor's CL or ML.
Ability runes (Air, Fire, Water, Earth) are used to increase the ability score (starting at minimum required score) to the maximum of the manifestor/caster's current casting ability score.

Example: lvl 8 Wizard with 18int casts Fireball.
- Without runes: The fireball deals 5d6 fire damage, with a reflex save of 14 for half. The minimum caster level of 5, and the lowest Ability Score of 13int.
Cost = 0 runes
- With runes: The fireball deals 8d6 fire damage, with a reflex save of 17 for half.
Cost = 5 Water runes to increase the ability score from 13 -> 18; and 3 Chaos runes to increase the CL from 5 -> 8.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Seems balanced...except blood runes are too cheap for their power, if I am reading right I could cast a maximized (+3) quickened (+4) empowered (+2) Split ray'ed (+2) enervation from a 4th level slot if I paid 165 GP... really that is too powerful.

[Chained Birds]

Seems balanced...except blood runes are too cheap for their power, if I am reading right I could cast a maximized (+3) quickened (+4) empowered (+2) Split ray'ed (+2) enervation from a 4th level slot if I paid 165 GP... really that is too powerful.

No, you still have to increase the level of the spell, it just now has a physical cost as well as taking up a higher level spell slot.

Edit: But even with that, should Blood Runes be more expensive? I don't know.
Though my system has you retrieving 100 Soul Runes for a casting of 1 rez... Might want to increase the price to 100gp so you only need 50.

[Dusk Eclipse]

So in order to use a meta-magic'd spell you would need to cast it from the correct spells slot ant pay 50 GP per increase? Sounds more balanced in any case.

[Chained Birds]

So in order to use a meta-magic'd spell you would need to cast it from the correct spells slot ant pay 50 GP per increase? Sounds more balanced in any case.

So Blood Runes at 50gp sounds balanced? I'll split the difference and go with 35gp per Blood Rune.

Heck, let's make Soul Runes 100gp.