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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshen View Post
    Good points. Ever since Parson entered Erfworld, I've been fascinated by a dichotomy in the way he treats people. He treats those closest to him with affection and sensitivity, although he does use them as he must for the war. He was pretty sad when Misty died.

    Anyone else is just a game piece, whose lives he spent gladly. This is clearly shown in the tragic horrible deaths of Webinar and Dora and a couple of unknown enemy troops, all while Parson works out silly word games.
    That's because Parson *changed* between those two events. The thing he was missing, which had to be given to him in one of his Stupid Meals, was ruthlessness. It was this which allowed him to sacrifice all those units without a second thought, not some disbelief in the world he finds himself in.

  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Breaking Enoubh Rules for Peace


    I'm not sure this means that Parson could take over the world, or that Parson will find a way to make all victories Pyrrhic, which seems to be the way it's been interpreted so far. Of course, it could mean that, but ... it just seems like a small meaning, given the scope we've seen the authors display. I think I'd rather be disappointed, in the sense that ... I think there's a lot more that could be done with the idea.

    Instead, consider that Erfworld and its rules system that is modeled roughly on a wargame interactions is in some sense inherently designed for battle, war, and destruction. The turn-based rules, the leveling, popping, upkeep ... all designed to fuel wargames. When Janis says that they were popped in a world where peace is impossible - that is a literal truth.

    I think something more fundamental has to break before Erfworld can be peaceful; and if Erfworld can be peaceful; and I look forward to seeing just where the authors will take us.

    Cheers,
    Roszlishan

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    Default Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141

    Quote Originally Posted by Moechi_Vill View Post
    The game is moderately balanced towards continuing forever with countries splitting up when they become bigger.
    Maybe that is how Parson gets control of a side. If they capture enough cities, a "senior" member of Stanley's side is promoted to overlord and then the side is split into two.

    Alternatively, perhaps, because he is an overlord, his side is immune to being split (there is no nobles to usurp him). In effect, an overlord can become "emperor" of the world, but a King cannot.

    Another option is that Parson somehow manages to change Stanley's side into a federation (say ruled by a "Council of Overlords"). Thus, when Stanley's side splits, it creates new States in the federation rather than creating two sides (which are probably set to 'at war' status when the split happens).
    Last edited by raphfrk; 2009-04-18 at 11:43 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141

    I think I understand why the Grand Abbie might think Parson is a hippiemancer. Hippies in our world were all about challenging the statues quo in hopes of peace and equality. While Parson may not care as much about peace as a Sizemore does, his very existence is a challenge to the status qua of Erfworld.

    Unfortunately the more people that find this out, the more enemies Parson might have.

    Before the comic is over he could wind up having more enemies then Stanley.

    Or the hippiemancer could have lying, but I still think she senses that Parson's existence is a threat to the status quo.


    (PS: How is status quo spelled exactly? I always thought it was two words and that it was spelled quo, but firefox's spell check is telling me that is wrong. From what I can tell of the spell check, it is is either status qua or statuesque. For now I shall leave it how I thought it was spelled.)
    Last edited by Lizard Lord; 2009-04-18 at 11:43 AM.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141

    *points to guy with long brown hair, moustache and no shirt*

    George Harrison, anyone?

    Also, do the swirly, rainbow things remind anyone else of a lava lamp?

  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141

    (It is statu quo. Firefox's spellchecker is sometimes wrong because it doesn't recognize phrases, only words. Another example is how it wants to change Eta Cassiopeiae into Eta Cassiopeia.)

    I said it in a previous thread, but if the hippiemancers want peace, freedom and equality, then no one is more likely to bring it on Erfworld than an outsider like Parson for whom such concepts are actually meaningful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight Roamer View Post
    I think he did the only morally acceptable thing by killing everyone.
    Hark! An avatar drawn by Kate Beaton!

  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141

    I'm surprised at the number of people who feel that Parson ought to feel bad for the success of his tunnel ambush. Notably, because they cite the death of Webinar and Dora as reasons to be upset. But not, say the fate of the various gobwins and spidews that died in the same conflict. Why? Probably because they have names and faces.

    So some readers think (looking at Goshen's post here) that Parson should feel bad about the death of characters that they have relationships to (through name and face recognition), but not that he should feel bad about the unnamed and unshown allies of Parsons who met equally unpleasant deaths at the hand of Team Radish. Anyone see the paradox here? It /is/ immoral, in warfare, to value the enemy's life more highly than the lives of those on your own side whom they seek to kill.

    Sizemore's pacifism may be laudatory, but it's unsustainable in a world where you exist only at the whim of a faction leader who himself exists only to contest militarily for territory. And Jillian's dad reveals what happens when one, empowered by geographical advantage, tries to buck the system, his disadvantaged warlords grow bitter and disaffected, denied the perks the 'natural' order would provide them. Janis has it right, peace, even small, localized peace, is pretty much impossible in Erfworld as written.

    And for those who argue that even under Peace(tm) we have small, local wars and crime, all I can say is that there is a major qualitative difference between the suffering generated by low grade disorganized violence and that generated by outright warfare. The difference between good and better is much smaller than the difference between bad and worse.

    So yeah, Parson is an interesting cause for hope. He doesn't start with any of the same assumptions of the other people in Erf, and this makes it possible for him to probe the space between the known rules, looking for weak spots, exploits, ways to extend the range of possibilities. It's possible he'll just make war more bloody and more ruthless, but it's also possible he'll find a way to break the assumptions that sustain the constant war.

    I do suspect that when the Ruthlessness wears off, he's going to mourn the sacrifice of Bogroll. But I'm genuinely mystified why he should feel bad about the deaths and humiliations of homicidal enemies like Webinar, Dora, and the Radish Guy. These people would have killed him and then disbanded his whole side without a moment's pause.

    Oh, and to the side discussion on the tyranny of strong governments: like anything else, it depends on who you are. If Serenity had been about life on the inner planets and you'd seen the outer worlds through the lens of their news services, you'd basically have thought their government was beneficent. Every power structure favors some groups at the expense of others. Extreme capitalism favors protecting the property of the rich over the poor and just not rich. Extreme socialism reverses that relationship. A technologically focused society will privilege the educated, an agrarian society the strong, healthy and productive. Gobwin Knob, being a military culture, privileges warlords and top killers while having nothing particularly good for pacifists and grunts. It's almost never as simple as good and evil, it's about 'good for whom' and 'evil for whom'.

  8. - Top - End - #68
    Magnificent Boop in the Playground
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    Default Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141

    Quote Originally Posted by rosebud View Post
    I am curious where Wanda fits with all this. She does not seem to be a lover of peace, so to speak.
    If Erfworlders live until croaked by violence (which seems to be implied by the way they heal fully each day, and the fact that we've never seen anybody who looked older than middle-aged), peace would leave Wanda with no outlet for her favored magical discipline.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141

    Quote Originally Posted by chaoschristian View Post
    Sizemore's already a master dirtamancer, yes? Perhaps the xp thresholds are simply too large at that point to level more than a couple of times.
    He killed a few thousand people, even divided by 3, that is still a large death toll.

    If that is the kind of death toll needed to level when you reach the 'master' range, he is probably the most powerful dirtamancer in the world.

    In effect, Stanley would have the 3 most powerful, Dirt/Think/Croak mancers available.

    Btw, do you think the skipped a page with the splitting up of the link (to be included as a book-incentive)?
    Last edited by raphfrk; 2009-04-18 at 11:57 AM.

  10. - Top - End - #70
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    Default Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141

    Quote Originally Posted by WarriorTribble View Post
    Somewhat offtopic, but is there a story where this actually happened, and was considered a good thing? Y'know instead of either the unification failing miserably after much death, or the resulting world government becoming a force of pure evil?
    The Baron's Peace, in Girl Genius, comes close. It only covers most of continental Europe, and there's still some fighting even within the borders, at least till the Baron notices and comes over to make them stop. But it's repeatedly made clear that it's better than anything you'll find elsewhere in that world. The story even manages to approve of it while the main characters are under serious threat from it.

    (Also, hello everyone from a new delurker! )

  11. - Top - End - #71
    Magnificent Boop in the Playground
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    Default Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141

    Quote Originally Posted by raphfrk View Post
    He killed a few thousand people, even divided by 3, that is still a large death toll.

    If that is the kind of death toll needed to level when you reach the 'master' range, he is probably the most powerful dirtamancer in the world.

    In effect, Stanley would have the 3 most powerful, Dirt/Think/Croak mancers available.
    Maybe they didn't get any level-ups from the enemies croaked by the volcano because they retreated before it went off (remember Stanley's complaint about Parson's hit-and-run tactics).

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    Default Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141

    I agree that Janis the Grand Abbie (which title presumably refers to Abbie Hoffman, BTW) seems to be more of a reference to Janis Ian than Janis Joplin, although Janis Ian is thin and has always had curly hair. See the album cover at http://www.whatrecords.co.uk/live/pics/20252.jpg; also, Janis Ian's lyrics have always tended to be more socially informed/conscious ("Society's Child"), where Janis Joplin's tended to be more personal ("Piece of My Heart").

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    Default Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveMB View Post
    If Erfworlders live until croaked by violence (which seems to be implied by the way they heal fully each day, and the fact that we've never seen anybody who looked older than middle-aged), peace would leave Wanda with no outlet for her favored magical discipline.
    But Wanda is from Faq and for a long time Faq was not at war with anyone so she would not have had anyone to uncroak. But she is Master by the time we see her in the story. So she must have been able to level some way without dead bodies to work with, right?

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    smile Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141

    Quote Originally Posted by chaoschristian View Post
    Sizemore's already a master dirtamancer, yes? Perhaps the xp thresholds are simply too large at that point to level more than a couple of times.

    Bogroll on the other hand was a lowly garrison unit. I'm surprised he only leveled twice.

    Back in the long-long-ago, when I used to play Dungeons and Dragons, pretty much everyone in the extended group of gamers I played with, used variant rules such as the Perrin Conventions, and other variations based on the Arduin Grimmoire.

    One of the house rules that just about everyone used, was that you couldn't level more than twice in a single play session (or in some cases, you couldn't level more than twice in large battles that extended over multiple play sessions).

    So, even if you somehow managed to kill a god (I'm using this as an intentionally ridiculous example), or even an entire pantheon of gods....

    ...well, here you go, here are your two levels.

    Perhaps Erfworld uses the same house rules?

    If both Sizemore and Bogroll each gained enough experience to bump up against the house-rule xp limit for a single battle, then they'd both get their two levels, regardless of the actual totals of xp involved.

  15. - Top - End - #75
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    Default Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141

    Quote Originally Posted by BLANDCorporatio View Post
    Ya know, sometimes a Bogroll is just a Bogroll.
    LOL!
    Quote Originally Posted by BLANDCorporatio View Post
    ...but that interpretation of yours is sufficiently awesome that I kinda like it!
    The essence of a good theory is that it fits. Wether it is remotely true is another question. ;-)
    Quote Originally Posted by hewhosaysfish View Post
    Are you familiar with the idea of Dunbar's number? (See also Monkeysphere.)
    Not until now. Thanks for the awesome and relevant links!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sebastian View Post
    Interesting theory, even if it make more probable that Erfworld is just some kind of dream, with all the characters as projection of parts of Parson personality.
    It does a bit, but having characters represent different aspects of human nature is an old story-telling technique. Is there a name for it, anyone?

    I don't think Stanley, Jillian, Vinnie, or Ansom represent parts of Parson, but they do fit certain architypes nicely. Stanly the office boss from hell. Ansom the hansom Prince, even if he is a prig. (Yes, I meant "prig" with a "g".) I tihnk Vinnie is so appealing because he is such a good "best friend", first to Ansom, now to Jillian.


    Quote Originally Posted by rosebud View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Goshen View Post
    Anyone else is just a game piece, whose lives he spent gladly. This is clearly shown in the tragic horrible deaths of Webinar and Dora and a couple of unknown enemy troops, all while Parson works out silly word games.
    I think you're being unfair. He did appreciate self preservation. Operas are what they are because of the tragedy. And to make a leap from his appreciation of the tragedy of Missy to the greater tragedy is not an impossible stretch. Nor is an unsustainable peace a great virtue.
    I think he was being pretty detached there. Also when he was having his uncraoked warlord yell "Leeeroy!" in his first attck on the enemy column, slaughtering hundreds. My point is that the story may be about his journy towards empathy.

    I agree with you about Opera, and Erfworld definitely is one. The Webinar Dora death page was a truly magnificent heart-wrenching moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    That's because Parson *changed* between those two events. The thing he was missing, which had to be given to him in one of his Stupid Meals, was ruthlessness. It was this which allowed him to sacrifice all those units without a second thought, not some disbelief in the world he finds himself in.
    That almost fits, but I still contend that he was detached earlier, before his sword was complete.

    Quote Originally Posted by mhoram View Post
    So some readers think (looking at Goshen's post here) that Parson should feel bad about the death of characters that they have relationships to (through name and face recognition), but not that he should feel bad about the unnamed and unshown allies of Parsons who met equally unpleasant deaths at the hand of Team Radish. Anyone see the paradox here? It /is/ immoral, in warfare, to value the enemy's life more highly than the lives of those on your own side whom they seek to kill.
    Hmmm. You make a complex point. Of course you have to kill the enemy when there is no other way, and definitely try to minimize your losses at the cost of theirs. Nevertheless, valuing all sentient life is a higher moral state.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141

    Quote Originally Posted by chaoschristian View Post
    Pax Parsonum?
    It would be the Pax Hamsterica and you know it.
    Last edited by Imgran; 2009-04-18 at 01:09 PM.

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    smile Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshen View Post
    This kind of dichotomy (my friends are human, everyone else is walking meat) is a depressingly common condition. A form of basic tribalism, which makes a lot of very bad behavior possible. Perhaps part of Parson's journey will be to value all life, with Sizemore being his conscience. That makes Sizemore a perfect contrast with Wanda, for whom horror, pain, and (above all) dominance are always personal--and delicious. She is a walking Id.

    Wow! I really am enjoying my little theory!

    Maggie and Bogroll round out the cast of external representations of Parson's character. Maggie representing cold logic and ruthless efficiency, Bogroll representing innocence -- which just died.


    That is a beautifull turn of phrase there at the end.

    I'm not sure if it's right... but even lack of rightness wouldn't stop it from being an awesome quote.


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    Default Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141

    Quote Originally Posted by Freerefill View Post
    *points to guy with long brown hair, moustache and no shirt*

    George Harrison, anyone?
    No, he is most definitely Frank Zappa.

    http://www.drjazz.ch/album/bilder/FrankZappa0023.jpg

    See?

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    Default Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141

    Quote Originally Posted by luxgladius View Post
    I have to say I'm surprised he only leveled twice. Bogroll leveled twice for killing one Warlord, albeit the highest ranking of them all. Sizemore probably killed at least 10, and thousands of infantry. Granted, he had to split the XP 3 ways with the rest of the link, and Parson probably got his share (though without stats, maybe not), but still... Not to mention that even before the big finish, he was still royally kicking ass.
    Well, a couple possibilities come to mind. First, as others have mentioned, they retreated before the combat ended, so they might not get much xp. Second, they really just created a 'trap,' albeit a trap big enough to wipe clean several hexes - I dunno if you get xp for killing something with a trap you made, since it's kinda indirect. Third, the 3-way split will reduce the xp gain significantly. Fourth, I know a lot of games in which the highest level char used in a battle determines the amount of xp gained (so the total xp gained is based off the highest level character's rate of xp gain). Fifth, it could be that the linked casters, as a single entity, gained xp, so the xp went towards the linked form and did nothing for the separate casters. Sixth, it might just be that their combined levels count towards the link (see V. with the soul-splice in OOTS); in this case, they might just be too high level overall to gain much in the ways of xp. If a master-class is, say, lvl 10, and there's at least one master-class in the link (wanda) then the combined levels of the link would probably be 20 or higher - so little if any xp would be gained.

    (Hopefully at least some of this is coherent/logical/possible...)

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    Default Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141

    Quote Originally Posted by HandofShadows View Post
    But Wanda is from Faq and for a long time Faq was not at war with anyone so she would not have had anyone to uncroak. But she is Master by the time we see her in the story. So she must have been able to level some way without dead bodies to work with, right?
    That might explain her willingness to go outside her discipline to get the job done if she has to. That's how she leveled.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141

    I think Sizemore gained those two levels from all the earlier fighting - and that all the casters "missed" the experience they would have gotten from the volcano when they escaped.

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    frown Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshen View Post
    This kind of dichotomy (my friends are human, everyone else is walking meat) is a depressingly common condition.
    Actually, dehumanizing the enemy is pretty much required to enable soldiers to kill other people without suffering serious mental trauma. The human mind is not naturally wired to kill other humans, so the basic psychological imperative must be overwritten temporarily. Even in a just war, the soldiers must be indoctrinated because most people simply cannot kill other humans without feeling serious remorse. Even with the conditioning combat fatigue is still a problem, but at least the majority of the soldiers will pull the trigger and shoot what they are told to.

    One of the problems of the aftermath of war, however, is soldiers not having the mental conditioning overwritten again giving the enemy their humanity back. Even when people try to remove the conditioning, the soldiers' experiences can make them resistant to the new conditioning.

    In a related fact, the primary reason the Nazi's started looking for alternatives to shooting Jews during WW2 wasn't prompted by the bullet shortage, it was the due to the mental trauma suffered by the soldiers executing Jews. Soldiers performing executions kept falling out and becoming ineffective. Losing good soldiers to trauma and retaining psychopaths was not deemed to be advantageous to Nazi agenda. Sure psychopaths didn't feel guilt so they didn't suffer trauma, but they caused problems in other areas.

    The point here being, that even with serious conditioning dehumanizing Jews, the natural human aversion to killing other humans would assert itself over the Nazi conditioning eventually leading to serious stress in even staunch anti-semetic people. In other words, Hate only gives a temporary resistance to guilt.
    Last edited by ishnar; 2009-04-18 at 02:26 PM.
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    Default Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141

    Quote Originally Posted by Imgran View Post
    That might explain her willingness to go outside her discipline to get the job done if she has to. That's how she leveled.
    Also, if the standard strategy is to have casters as far away from combat as possible, then they would have to be able to level some other way.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141

    Quote Originally Posted by greywords View Post
    As for peace making, "perfect weapon" never seems to act as a deterrent to war in general (see the invention of TNT, the atom bomb, and, as mentioned by another poster, machine guns) but does change the nature of combat.
    This is the outcome I'd prefer to see, the one that hews most closely to reality. Erfworld would become a place where a general peace among large nations leads to less grand-scale warfare. And since there seem to be no smaller nations capable of igniting regional warfare, then perhaps a lasting peace could be had.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquillion View Post
    Hmm. I'm not sure whether this page really establishes if Parson is a Hippimancer or not, but it does certainly show, either way, why Janis would have defended him.
    The thought that springs to mind for me is "Peace through superior firepower."

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    Default Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141

    Is there an erfworld level chart? I'm wondering the scale we're dealing with when they say two levels for bogroll and sizemore. Like is it levels 1-20, 1-100?
    I would be a procrastinator, but I keep putting it off.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141

    Quote Originally Posted by the_tick_rules View Post
    Is there an erfworld level chart? I'm wondering the scale we're dealing with when they say two levels for bogroll and sizemore. Like is it levels 1-20, 1-100?
    Well, we know from Janis that there are infinite levels, but I'd assume that practically no units ever get higher than level 20 or so, based off the constant battling and as a guess from bonuses. I figure if Jillian's a 9 (though I realize that doesn't necessarily mean lvl 9), then even the highest level chars like Ansom probably are below level 20. That being said, if they know (or at least assume) that there are infinite levels possible, someone must have gotten to a pretty high level and still been able to gain xp. Then again, just because no one's hit the level cap doesn't mean there isn't one. So I doubt there's a level chart, but it's hard to know what level corresponds to, say, a "master-class" mancer, or to a "high-level" unit.
    Last edited by Anias; 2009-04-18 at 04:07 PM.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141

    Quote Originally Posted by Anias View Post
    I figure if Jillian's a 9 (though I realize that doesn't necessarily mean lvl 9)
    Yeah, could mean warlord with a leadership bonus of 9.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141

    Could it be that there aren't levels per se, but a continuum, and levelling up is when one of your stats rolls over to the next higher value after rounding?

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    Default Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141

    Quote Originally Posted by Suicide Junkie View Post
    Could it be that there aren't levels per se, but a continuum, and levelling up is when one of your stats rolls over to the next higher value after rounding?
    Just for variety, it would interesting if a system used logarithmic levels. Level five would run like a little girl from a level six crying for his mommy instead of thinking, "ohh, Good XP"
    Last edited by ishnar; 2009-04-18 at 05:08 PM.
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