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Thread: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141
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2009-04-18, 11:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141
That's because Parson *changed* between those two events. The thing he was missing, which had to be given to him in one of his Stupid Meals, was ruthlessness. It was this which allowed him to sacrifice all those units without a second thought, not some disbelief in the world he finds himself in.
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2009-04-18, 11:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Breaking Enoubh Rules for Peace
I'm not sure this means that Parson could take over the world, or that Parson will find a way to make all victories Pyrrhic, which seems to be the way it's been interpreted so far. Of course, it could mean that, but ... it just seems like a small meaning, given the scope we've seen the authors display. I think I'd rather be disappointed, in the sense that ... I think there's a lot more that could be done with the idea.
Instead, consider that Erfworld and its rules system that is modeled roughly on a wargame interactions is in some sense inherently designed for battle, war, and destruction. The turn-based rules, the leveling, popping, upkeep ... all designed to fuel wargames. When Janis says that they were popped in a world where peace is impossible - that is a literal truth.
I think something more fundamental has to break before Erfworld can be peaceful; and if Erfworld can be peaceful; and I look forward to seeing just where the authors will take us.
Cheers,
Roszlishan
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2009-04-18, 11:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141
Maybe that is how Parson gets control of a side. If they capture enough cities, a "senior" member of Stanley's side is promoted to overlord and then the side is split into two.
Alternatively, perhaps, because he is an overlord, his side is immune to being split (there is no nobles to usurp him). In effect, an overlord can become "emperor" of the world, but a King cannot.
Another option is that Parson somehow manages to change Stanley's side into a federation (say ruled by a "Council of Overlords"). Thus, when Stanley's side splits, it creates new States in the federation rather than creating two sides (which are probably set to 'at war' status when the split happens).Last edited by raphfrk; 2009-04-18 at 11:43 AM.
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2009-04-18, 11:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141
I think I understand why the Grand Abbie might think Parson is a hippiemancer. Hippies in our world were all about challenging the statues quo in hopes of peace and equality. While Parson may not care as much about peace as a Sizemore does, his very existence is a challenge to the status qua of Erfworld.
Unfortunately the more people that find this out, the more enemies Parson might have.
Before the comic is over he could wind up having more enemies then Stanley.
Or the hippiemancer could have lying, but I still think she senses that Parson's existence is a threat to the status quo.
(PS: How is status quo spelled exactly? I always thought it was two words and that it was spelled quo, but firefox's spell check is telling me that is wrong. From what I can tell of the spell check, it is is either status qua or statuesque. For now I shall leave it how I thought it was spelled.)Last edited by Lizard Lord; 2009-04-18 at 11:43 AM.
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2009-04-18, 11:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141
*points to guy with long brown hair, moustache and no shirt*
George Harrison, anyone?
Also, do the swirly, rainbow things remind anyone else of a lava lamp?
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2009-04-18, 11:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141
(It is statu quo. Firefox's spellchecker is sometimes wrong because it doesn't recognize phrases, only words. Another example is how it wants to change Eta Cassiopeiae into Eta Cassiopeia.)
I said it in a previous thread, but if the hippiemancers want peace, freedom and equality, then no one is more likely to bring it on Erfworld than an outsider like Parson for whom such concepts are actually meaningful.Hark! An avatar drawn by Kate Beaton!
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2009-04-18, 11:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141
I'm surprised at the number of people who feel that Parson ought to feel bad for the success of his tunnel ambush. Notably, because they cite the death of Webinar and Dora as reasons to be upset. But not, say the fate of the various gobwins and spidews that died in the same conflict. Why? Probably because they have names and faces.
So some readers think (looking at Goshen's post here) that Parson should feel bad about the death of characters that they have relationships to (through name and face recognition), but not that he should feel bad about the unnamed and unshown allies of Parsons who met equally unpleasant deaths at the hand of Team Radish. Anyone see the paradox here? It /is/ immoral, in warfare, to value the enemy's life more highly than the lives of those on your own side whom they seek to kill.
Sizemore's pacifism may be laudatory, but it's unsustainable in a world where you exist only at the whim of a faction leader who himself exists only to contest militarily for territory. And Jillian's dad reveals what happens when one, empowered by geographical advantage, tries to buck the system, his disadvantaged warlords grow bitter and disaffected, denied the perks the 'natural' order would provide them. Janis has it right, peace, even small, localized peace, is pretty much impossible in Erfworld as written.
And for those who argue that even under Peace(tm) we have small, local wars and crime, all I can say is that there is a major qualitative difference between the suffering generated by low grade disorganized violence and that generated by outright warfare. The difference between good and better is much smaller than the difference between bad and worse.
So yeah, Parson is an interesting cause for hope. He doesn't start with any of the same assumptions of the other people in Erf, and this makes it possible for him to probe the space between the known rules, looking for weak spots, exploits, ways to extend the range of possibilities. It's possible he'll just make war more bloody and more ruthless, but it's also possible he'll find a way to break the assumptions that sustain the constant war.
I do suspect that when the Ruthlessness wears off, he's going to mourn the sacrifice of Bogroll. But I'm genuinely mystified why he should feel bad about the deaths and humiliations of homicidal enemies like Webinar, Dora, and the Radish Guy. These people would have killed him and then disbanded his whole side without a moment's pause.
Oh, and to the side discussion on the tyranny of strong governments: like anything else, it depends on who you are. If Serenity had been about life on the inner planets and you'd seen the outer worlds through the lens of their news services, you'd basically have thought their government was beneficent. Every power structure favors some groups at the expense of others. Extreme capitalism favors protecting the property of the rich over the poor and just not rich. Extreme socialism reverses that relationship. A technologically focused society will privilege the educated, an agrarian society the strong, healthy and productive. Gobwin Knob, being a military culture, privileges warlords and top killers while having nothing particularly good for pacifists and grunts. It's almost never as simple as good and evil, it's about 'good for whom' and 'evil for whom'.
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2009-04-18, 11:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141
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2009-04-18, 11:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141
He killed a few thousand people, even divided by 3, that is still a large death toll.
If that is the kind of death toll needed to level when you reach the 'master' range, he is probably the most powerful dirtamancer in the world.
In effect, Stanley would have the 3 most powerful, Dirt/Think/Croak mancers available.
Btw, do you think the skipped a page with the splitting up of the link (to be included as a book-incentive)?Last edited by raphfrk; 2009-04-18 at 11:57 AM.
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2009-04-18, 12:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141
The Baron's Peace, in Girl Genius, comes close. It only covers most of continental Europe, and there's still some fighting even within the borders, at least till the Baron notices and comes over to make them stop. But it's repeatedly made clear that it's better than anything you'll find elsewhere in that world. The story even manages to approve of it while the main characters are under serious threat from it.
(Also, hello everyone from a new delurker! )
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2009-04-18, 12:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141
Maybe they didn't get any level-ups from the enemies croaked by the volcano because they retreated before it went off (remember Stanley's complaint about Parson's hit-and-run tactics).
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2009-04-18, 12:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141
I agree that Janis the Grand Abbie (which title presumably refers to Abbie Hoffman, BTW) seems to be more of a reference to Janis Ian than Janis Joplin, although Janis Ian is thin and has always had curly hair. See the album cover at http://www.whatrecords.co.uk/live/pics/20252.jpg; also, Janis Ian's lyrics have always tended to be more socially informed/conscious ("Society's Child"), where Janis Joplin's tended to be more personal ("Piece of My Heart").
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2009-04-18, 12:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141
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2009-04-18, 12:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141
Back in the long-long-ago, when I used to play Dungeons and Dragons, pretty much everyone in the extended group of gamers I played with, used variant rules such as the Perrin Conventions, and other variations based on the Arduin Grimmoire.
One of the house rules that just about everyone used, was that you couldn't level more than twice in a single play session (or in some cases, you couldn't level more than twice in large battles that extended over multiple play sessions).
So, even if you somehow managed to kill a god (I'm using this as an intentionally ridiculous example), or even an entire pantheon of gods....
...well, here you go, here are your two levels.
Perhaps Erfworld uses the same house rules?
If both Sizemore and Bogroll each gained enough experience to bump up against the house-rule xp limit for a single battle, then they'd both get their two levels, regardless of the actual totals of xp involved.
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2009-04-18, 01:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141
LOL!
The essence of a good theory is that it fits. Wether it is remotely true is another question. ;-)
Not until now. Thanks for the awesome and relevant links!
It does a bit, but having characters represent different aspects of human nature is an old story-telling technique. Is there a name for it, anyone?
I don't think Stanley, Jillian, Vinnie, or Ansom represent parts of Parson, but they do fit certain architypes nicely. Stanly the office boss from hell. Ansom the hansom Prince, even if he is a prig. (Yes, I meant "prig" with a "g".) I tihnk Vinnie is so appealing because he is such a good "best friend", first to Ansom, now to Jillian.
I think he was being pretty detached there. Also when he was having his uncraoked warlord yell "Leeeroy!" in his first attck on the enemy column, slaughtering hundreds. My point is that the story may be about his journy towards empathy.
I agree with you about Opera, and Erfworld definitely is one. The Webinar Dora death page was a truly magnificent heart-wrenching moment.
That almost fits, but I still contend that he was detached earlier, before his sword was complete.
Hmmm. You make a complex point. Of course you have to kill the enemy when there is no other way, and definitely try to minimize your losses at the cost of theirs. Nevertheless, valuing all sentient life is a higher moral state.
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2009-04-18, 01:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141
Last edited by Imgran; 2009-04-18 at 01:09 PM.
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2009-04-18, 01:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-04-18, 01:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141
No, he is most definitely Frank Zappa.
http://www.drjazz.ch/album/bilder/FrankZappa0023.jpg
See?
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2009-04-18, 01:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141
Well, a couple possibilities come to mind. First, as others have mentioned, they retreated before the combat ended, so they might not get much xp. Second, they really just created a 'trap,' albeit a trap big enough to wipe clean several hexes - I dunno if you get xp for killing something with a trap you made, since it's kinda indirect. Third, the 3-way split will reduce the xp gain significantly. Fourth, I know a lot of games in which the highest level char used in a battle determines the amount of xp gained (so the total xp gained is based off the highest level character's rate of xp gain). Fifth, it could be that the linked casters, as a single entity, gained xp, so the xp went towards the linked form and did nothing for the separate casters. Sixth, it might just be that their combined levels count towards the link (see V. with the soul-splice in OOTS); in this case, they might just be too high level overall to gain much in the ways of xp. If a master-class is, say, lvl 10, and there's at least one master-class in the link (wanda) then the combined levels of the link would probably be 20 or higher - so little if any xp would be gained.
(Hopefully at least some of this is coherent/logical/possible...)
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2009-04-18, 01:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141
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2009-04-18, 02:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141
I think Sizemore gained those two levels from all the earlier fighting - and that all the casters "missed" the experience they would have gotten from the volcano when they escaped.
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2009-04-18, 02:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141
Actually, dehumanizing the enemy is pretty much required to enable soldiers to kill other people without suffering serious mental trauma. The human mind is not naturally wired to kill other humans, so the basic psychological imperative must be overwritten temporarily. Even in a just war, the soldiers must be indoctrinated because most people simply cannot kill other humans without feeling serious remorse. Even with the conditioning combat fatigue is still a problem, but at least the majority of the soldiers will pull the trigger and shoot what they are told to.
One of the problems of the aftermath of war, however, is soldiers not having the mental conditioning overwritten again giving the enemy their humanity back. Even when people try to remove the conditioning, the soldiers' experiences can make them resistant to the new conditioning.
In a related fact, the primary reason the Nazi's started looking for alternatives to shooting Jews during WW2 wasn't prompted by the bullet shortage, it was the due to the mental trauma suffered by the soldiers executing Jews. Soldiers performing executions kept falling out and becoming ineffective. Losing good soldiers to trauma and retaining psychopaths was not deemed to be advantageous to Nazi agenda. Sure psychopaths didn't feel guilt so they didn't suffer trauma, but they caused problems in other areas.
The point here being, that even with serious conditioning dehumanizing Jews, the natural human aversion to killing other humans would assert itself over the Nazi conditioning eventually leading to serious stress in even staunch anti-semetic people. In other words, Hate only gives a temporary resistance to guilt.Last edited by ishnar; 2009-04-18 at 02:26 PM.
"If I could just interrupt your stunningly dysfunctional group dynamic for a moment to interject." -- Erfworld
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2009-04-18, 02:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-04-18, 02:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141
This is the outcome I'd prefer to see, the one that hews most closely to reality. Erfworld would become a place where a general peace among large nations leads to less grand-scale warfare. And since there seem to be no smaller nations capable of igniting regional warfare, then perhaps a lasting peace could be had.
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2009-04-18, 03:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-04-18, 03:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141
Is there an erfworld level chart? I'm wondering the scale we're dealing with when they say two levels for bogroll and sizemore. Like is it levels 1-20, 1-100?
I would be a procrastinator, but I keep putting it off.
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2009-04-18, 04:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141
Well, we know from Janis that there are infinite levels, but I'd assume that practically no units ever get higher than level 20 or so, based off the constant battling and as a guess from bonuses. I figure if Jillian's a 9 (though I realize that doesn't necessarily mean lvl 9), then even the highest level chars like Ansom probably are below level 20. That being said, if they know (or at least assume) that there are infinite levels possible, someone must have gotten to a pretty high level and still been able to gain xp. Then again, just because no one's hit the level cap doesn't mean there isn't one. So I doubt there's a level chart, but it's hard to know what level corresponds to, say, a "master-class" mancer, or to a "high-level" unit.
Last edited by Anias; 2009-04-18 at 04:07 PM.
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2009-04-18, 04:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-04-18, 04:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141
Could it be that there aren't levels per se, but a continuum, and levelling up is when one of your stats rolls over to the next higher value after rounding?
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2009-04-18, 04:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141
Last edited by ishnar; 2009-04-18 at 05:08 PM.
"If I could just interrupt your stunningly dysfunctional group dynamic for a moment to interject." -- Erfworld