FIFA 2010 World Cup

[Klose_the_Sith]

Raw figures, though, don't always tell the whole story. The calibre of the opposition faced by Klose- and the tally he racked up against them- isn't really comparable to that faced by, say, Muller. Klose scored a hat-trick against a Saudi Arabia side that just rolled over and asked to be kicked as soon as they saw who they were up against in 2002, for instance. He scored three against England and Argentina this time round, but you'd be hard-pressed to argue that those were brilliant defensive displays by the opposition.

Are you saying that the other players never gutted weak defences? That is the JOB of a striker. You're trying to diminish his record for ... doing what he's meant to?

There's also the matter of goals per game to take into account. Muller amassed his tally in two world cups, Fontaine in just one. And I don't think anyone in their right mind could begin to compare Klose to Pele.

And those first two players weren't consistently capable enough to make it in more world cups. Being a flash in the pan doesn't make you a good player. I don't need to compare Klose to Pele - if Pele can't score more goals then he doesn't deserve to be placed higher.

Klose is a good finisher, but he's only ever been a goal-poacher who's needed to have opportunities created for him, while most of the others towards the top of the list were capable of creating chances themselves. He deserves his place in the pantheon of successful World Cup goalscorers, no doubt, but I don't think he really deserves to be at the top of the list.

Receiving a pass and scoring is not goal-poaching, it is earning your goal as much as anybody else.

Crafting your own chances might seem a lot more impressive to the spectators, but being perfectly positioned and seizing on the ball when it falls to you requires excellent timing and initiative, not to mention patience - something which other strikers will typically lack.

Klose deserves to be at the top every bit as much as those other strikers. They all had their grandeur and their pratfalls. Picking him apart and enshrining the others isn't productive if you actually want people to keep playing soccer.

Note that I am not saying that we should simply pedestal strikers who can nail the sitters but are otherwise useless (I'm looking at you, Rooney) - simply that if someone claws his way up through the ranks then he deserves to have done so.

[Aedilred]

Oh, come on now. Is Klose one of the most successful international strikers of recent years? Yes. Is he one of the greatest players of all time? No, absolutely not.

Are you saying that the other players never gutted weak defences? That is the JOB of a striker. You're trying to diminish his record for ... doing what he's meant to?

So beating Saudia Arabia 8-0 would be just as impressive an achievement as beating Italy 8-0, then?

And those first two players weren't consistently capable enough to make it in more world cups. Being a flash in the pan doesn't make you a good player. I don't need to compare Klose to Pele - if Pele can't score more goals then he doesn't deserve to be placed higher.

Fontaine's international career was ended by injury before the 1962 World Cup, so he never got the chance to play at more than one. Muller's career began in the aftermath of the 1966 Cup, and retired after the victory in 1974. In neither case is that "not being consistently capable enough".

I mean, just compare the goal returns to caps for these players:

Muller 68 from 62 games
Fontaine 30 from 21
Pele 77 from 92
Klose 52 from 101

I can't see how we can look at that return and argue that Klose was the most capable of the lot.

[Klose_the_Sith]

Oh, come on now. Is Klose one of the most successful international strikers of recent years? Yes. Is he one of the greatest players of all time? No, absolutely not.

He's not the greatest player of all time, no.

He is, however, one of the best WORLD CUP players of all time. Maybe you haven't noticed, but it takes nerve to play in a World Cup and many accomplished strikers can't handle it.

Klose can. He doesn't get phased by it and plays consistently in the high-pressure games. That is what's impressive here.

So beating Saudia Arabia 8-0 would be just as impressive an achievement as beating Italy 8-0, then?

Depends on the year

Honestly though, like I already said - scalping a weak defence is a key part of being a striker. You cannot fault the man for actually doing his job just because you don't want him on the pedestal.

Fontaine's international career was ended by injury before the 1962 World Cup, so he never got the chance to play at more than one. Muller's career began in the aftermath of the 1966 Cup, and retired after the victory in 1974. In neither case is that "not being consistently capable enough".

The man that falls to injury does not deserve to go further. If you push your body too hard, or if the fates curse you, then you're gone. It's as much your fault as anyone else's.

Which also covers Mullers timing, incidentally. Luck is an integral part of playing soccer. You can't rail on one player for having it when nobody would turn it down.

I mean, just compare the goal returns to caps for these players:

Muller 68 from 62 games
Fontaine 30 from 21
Pele 77 from 92
Klose 52 from 101

I can't see how we can look at that return and argue that Klose was the most capable of the lot.

Most capable in every international? No, probably not.

However, I'm going to say this again:

Klose is a World Cup player, first and foremost.

Dragging in performance over goals in Euro and friendlies and what-not aren't relevant, because this is about being one of the best World Cup players. Which Klose is/was.

Klose is equal to Muller, only just worse than Ronaldo and better than Fontaine or Pele, in terms of being a World Cup striker.

That's where he stands and that's where the legacy he leaves will remain. The man is done with the game and he earned what he achieved.

Give it up. His career is finished.

[Morph Bark]

I know it, it's the surrender of Breda!!

The Dutch like to surrender without fighting through history, but spaniards prefer enemies with honor like Germany who fought until the last second.

If that were true, how come we were ever victorious with anything?


Of course I am rooting for my home country bigtime here. I hadn't expected Spain to be honest. Netherlands vs Germany has become such a classic kind of match that both of them in the finals of the World Cup has become notorious to see, and Germany was steamlolling all over its opponents. I imagined that if Germany had won, the Dutch players would have needed a big boost in confidence (prolly some speech emphasizing they had already beaten the big Number One, Brazil, which has only happened once before in 1974). Sure, Spain is no quadraplegic dwarf, so it will still be something.

If the Netherlands wins though... I will definitely have the best 20th birthday gift ever, as the World Cup will be handed out on that very day.

[Lin Bayaseda]

On the Muller/Pele/Close topic, a fact that bears consideration is that during the former two's careers, the World Cup consisted of 16 teams, while for Close, it was 32.

Therefore, Pele and Muller played against better teams on average. And, not to disparage Close's performance, but a goal againt Australia isn't worth quite the same as a goal against Italy. Yes, I know, a goal is a goal and all that, but ... Italy is Italy. Even when it fails to advance beyond the group stage.

[ForzaFiori]

On the Muller/Pele/Close topic, a fact that bears consideration is that during the former two's careers, the World Cup consisted of 16 teams, while for Close, it was 32.

Therefore, Pele and Muller played against better teams on average. And, not to disparage Close's performance, but a goal againt Australia isn't worth quite the same as a goal against Italy. Yes, I know, a goal is a goal and all that, but ... Italy is Italy. Even when it fails to advance beyond the group stage.

They not only played better teams, but with less teams, there were less games, so they had less chances. If we took away half of Klose's games, would he still be near the top

[Miklus]

Well...I'm with Holland. They beat Denmark, so they better win!

EDIT: and the best player ever was Peter Schmeichel.

[Wootles]

Wait, did I miss the new rule where the team with the most yellow cards wins the match?

[fknm]

They not only played better teams, but with less teams, there were less games, so they had less chances. If we took away half of Klose's games, would he still be near the top

Fun fact- tree structures, such as an elimination tournament, grow in height logarithmically to the number of nodes.

This means that in order to have twice the number of teams, each team that makes it to the finals needs only play one more game.

[Rhydeble]

What a "not very interesting to watch" first half.

[Mauve Shirt]

I agree, this half was totally dull. And what's with all of the dirty playing??

[Miklus]

What a "not very interesting to watch" first half.

I blame Spain. They where everywhere, ruining the dutch play. But they failed to produce anything themselves.

I suppose the same argument could be made for Holland. But I think Spain is mostly to blame.

A quick goal is needed in the second half, or this will go to penalties, I think.

[Miklus]

Both teams seem content with a penalty shootout. They should give the cup to Germany. That would show them.

[Lillith]

Looks like I'm going to win my bet. I bet the Dutch would get finished with the penalties. They always lose with the penalties. I'm saying Spanish 4, Dutch 2. When they have to shoot penalties.

[Morph Bark]

This has been a rather ridiculous final so far, indeed. The Dutch didn't play the offense well enough and the Spaniards were too quick to fall down. Such a shame, really, for all those who had expected a grand game.

[Xyk]

I'm not having much fun for a world cup final. That could easily just be because I was woken up to see it. But it is not particularly exciting.

Go Netherlands I guess.

[SaintRidley]

Poor game overall.

Can we just switch the Final and Third Place games in the books? That was a much better game.

[nightwyrm]

It's dumb, but traditionally, the 3rd place games are often better than the finals.

[Mauve Shirt]

FINALLY.
That is the most boring final I've ever seen. Yesterday's game was SO much better.

[SMEE]

No...

[Morph Bark]

FINALLY.
That is the most boring final I've ever seen. Yesterday's game was SO much better.

Definitely.

It's also pretty lame that Spain has won all of its matches with so little goals at all.

[Don Julio Anejo]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!
Sorry.

PS: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[SMEE]

Nooooooooooooooooo! Nooooooooooooo!!!

[Rhydeble]

that referee really needs to look up the off-side rules.

the goal wasn't offside, but the pass before that WAS. And now I'm going to leave the forums before I say stuff that attracts a certain never-sleeping mod.

[Klose_the_Sith]

The team I dislike from the start always wins the World Cup ...

Congrats to Spain, I guess. Don't think for as much as a second that I'm in any way happy with the result.

[Eloel]

Here is the real hero of the world cup

Spoiler

Show

[lostlittlebear]

NOOO!

This makes what, the third time Holland have come so close yet so far?

Oh well, I've had $50 riding on both Holland and Spain to win this thing since the start of the tournament so I'm not TOO disappointed.

[Arlion]

You know who is the true winner here? that goddammed octopus

[Drascin]

Well, so we won. Go us, I guess. Now, to ready myself for a month of uninterrupted not hearing about anything other than this...

(I'm one of those odd Spanish that dislike soccer, yes )

[Alteran]

Sigh. The teams were rather closely matched, I suppose. And both sides did commit a lot of fouls, but I feel the Netherlands were picked on more than Spain...oh well. It wasn't the most exciting game, but you could see that both sides were putting in a ton of effort.

However, I'd like to see how FIFA justifies the exclusion of technology now, after the winning goal of a World Cup Final was the result of an offside pass.