OOTS #858 - The Discussion Thread

[Icedaemon]

Did I really kick off an argument which has gone on for a dozen pages?

Beaming here.

[oppyu]

Did I really kick off an argument which has gone on for a dozen pages?

Beaming here.

To be fair, the argument is about Tarquin. That's like namedropping Miko or Redcloak these days.

[ti'esar]

Plus, like I said before, we're into bickering-about-pointless-minutiae mode anyway - notice how little of the arguing lately has actually mentioned Tarquin at all. If it wasn't you, it would have been something else.

[EmperorSarda]

Well, maybe. We have what Elan thinks is trap sense, but I'm not going to nitpick. Let's presume he's right. Just because Haley didn't say anything doesn't mean she couldn't have. All she does is smile after Elan mentions her using trap sense too.

Yes, Elan thinks it may be trap sense, but he's an idiot so it clearly is not that. Not to mention that Haley or Roy doesn't disagree. Plus it is hilarious for a webcomic that makes fun of D&D to make a joke about a class feature but not actually have the joke or reference be about that feature. That makes complete sense.

Panel 2, by the look of Haley's face she is surprised when the trap goes off. Not when Roy trips it, not when they reach some 40 feet from the trap, but when the trap goes off. Which means she had no time to shout warning, nor is her smile a devious smile of "I could have warned them about this trap but didn't." - It is more a smile of agreement that Trap Sense is nice to have.

[Omergideon]

Ah, but our pointless bickering in these threads is some of the most fun I see on the internets as it is generally good natured.

And if trap sense gave a bonus to percerption or spot checks regarding traps i would give more credence to the "helps find if traps is there" interpretation. As it is the bonuses are all linked to avoiding the effects of a trap. This makes the "figures out based on being a rouge/barbarian what a trap may do and instinctively makes preparations for it" interpretation seem more credible to me.

[Gusion]

Interpreting the description in its full context, not to mention with its actual wording, leads us to the conclusion that Trap Sense makes the rogue more sensitive to the effect of a trap, rather than to the potential existence of one.

And Guison, had not thought about it that way. You know this combined with some other bits makes me think That those who call T a send up (in some ways) of people who play Genre Savvy/rules abuse too far have a point. Not convinced, but it seems possible.

So the discrepancy between what happened and the mechanic you're referencing is a joke...except without anything to indicate any sort of joke whatsoever. [...] In short,

So my point is that Tarquin bends the rules because he's the type of PC who sits there and argues over the text of Trap Sense. It doesn't matter how we think it is *suppose* to work. That's irrelevant. He is the player who says, "but it says 'an intuitive sense that alerts her' and I want to roll a reflex save to get in front instead of avoid. Oh it is an arrow? I have snatch arrow."

And this strip shows development on OOTS' side to design a trap that allowed for - and perhaps expected - for Tarquin to do just that. Roy deserves an XP bonus.

As I said before, I think it will be explained in future strips although maybe not the next one as it will likely be dedicated to battle.

And by battle I'm hoping to see Durkon cast Fire Storm while Haley fires off a bunch of arrows. I'm sure some of them have likely have "Protection from Fire" going on, but it might take out one member at least and would hurt the rest.

Meanwhile Elan could try to be useful and cast Song of Discord. Okay, I know, he's probably not going to be useful... but alas. Even if only Nale failed this will save I'm sure Malack would greatly enjoy the result. But at least he could cast haste, or something.

[FujinAkari]

They were on the cusp of deciding not to open that door, if you recall.

No, Roy was arguing not to open the door. Haley was arguing to open it, and Haley wasn't the one who tried to stop Elan, Roy was. There is nothing in the strip to indicate that Haley had even a ounce of concern regarding potential traps on that door, all the concern was Roy's.

Because the SRD actually describes it like this:

Trap Sense (Ex)

At 3rd level, a rogue gains an intuitive sense that alerts her to danger from traps, giving her a +1 bonus on Reflex saves made to avoid traps and a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps. These bonuses rise to +2 when the rogue reaches 6th level, to +3 when she reaches 9th level, to +4 when she reaches 12th level, to +5 at 15th, and to +6 at 18th level.

Yeah... exactly. I highlighted the relevant portion. Rogues have an intuitive sense that alerts them to danger from traps. How in the world can that NOT mean that Rogues have an intuitive sense about when traps may be present?

Your argument makes no sense. It seems to be trying to argue that the rules say "At third level, the rogue's body becomes so accustomed to avoiding traps that it will sometimes react to traps without consciously being aware of them." Trouble is, the rules DON'T say that.

I think you're over-analyzing a joke, to be honest, but even if we take what you're saying at face value, you'll notice she didn't exactly rush forward to open the door either--she was certainly far enough back from it that a similar trap to the one that got Roy would have missed her.

Haley was certainly closer than her "safe distance" from potential traps from the previous strip, which can only mean she considered the possibility of this door being trapped less of an issue than the possibility of the previous door being trapped, despite LESS information about this one.

[windweaver]

I can't wait to find out what was special about the arrow Haley fired and how the Order's going to work this ambush.

[B. Dandelion]

Yeah... exactly. I highlighted the relevant portion. Rogues have an intuitive sense that alerts them to danger from traps. How in the world can that NOT mean that Rogues have an intuitive sense about when traps may be present?

Your argument makes no sense. It seems to be trying to argue that the rules say "At third level, the rogue's body becomes so accustomed to avoiding traps that it will sometimes react to traps without consciously being aware of them." Trouble is, the rules DON'T say that.

I thought his quoting the entire thing was appropriate. I didn't know much about it, but I got a very different idea of what it did from the portion you quoted compared to the entire thing in context. It's an intuitive sense... that applies to reflex and damage, so that defines and limits the power being described in specific ways. It seems you are arguing an extrapolation -- that for there to be any kind of intuitive sense in ANY respect, it must also grant some form of recognition that a trap is there in the first place. Correct? That makes some sense logically, yet there doesn't seem to be any corresponding reflection mechanically, the sense helps the rogue not get HIT by a trap and that's it.

So then, one side of the argument is saying the description can't make sense without conferring additional powers the mechanics don't literally grant, and the other is saying the mechanics can't make sense without a more stringent reading of the description. Oy.

I think I'm on the side of "limited powers" here. I mean, I see your point (I think) about the description, but I don't think Haley's getting an additional bonus to knowing when something bad's coming except that her feet will move faster than her brain before it hits. The alternative, being completely unaccounted for in any sort of mechanic but somehow ineffably present in her decision to stay away from the trap door actually sounds much more complicated and unnecessary.

[Snails]

So my point is that Tarquin bends the rules because he's the type of PC who sits there and argues over the text of Trap Sense. It doesn't matter how we think it is *suppose* to work. That's irrelevant. He is the player who says, "but it says 'an intuitive sense that alerts her' and I want to roll a reflex save to get in front instead of avoid. Oh it is an arrow? I have snatch arrow."

I think that is a good point. IMO, there are a few characters that "cheat". Tarquin and Belkar come to mind -- Tarquin because of his clever metagaming, Belkar because it is not possible for such a crappy build to work so well. We are not supposed to think hard about it, that is part the joke.

To be precise, I am not saying that Belkar's player cheats -- there is no such player. But the rules of the universe are explicitly supposed to "largely" conform to the kind of results that happen at the gaming table including quirks like mis-adding your own modifiers (we have seen that joke a couple times).

[EmperorSarda]

So my point is that Tarquin bends the rules because he's the type of PC who sits there and argues over the text of Trap Sense. It doesn't matter how we think it is *suppose* to work. That's irrelevant. He is the player who says, "but it says 'an intuitive sense that alerts her' and I want to roll a reflex save to get in front instead of avoid. Oh it is an arrow? I have snatch arrow."

What evidence do you have that Tarquin is a rules lawer/munchkin? When has he bent the rules at all? And again, there is no indication whatsoever that it is Trap sense.

Because the SRD actually describes it like this:

Originally Posted by 3.5 SRD
Trap Sense (Ex)

At 3rd level, a rogue gains an intuitive sense that alerts her to danger from traps, giving her a +1 bonus on Reflex saves made to avoid traps and a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps. These bonuses rise to +2 when the rogue reaches 6th level, to +3 when she reaches 9th level, to +4 when she reaches 12th level, to +5 at 15th, and to +6 at 18th level.

Yeah... exactly. I highlighted the relevant portion. Rogues have an intuitive sense that alerts them to danger from traps. How in the world can that NOT mean that Rogues have an intuitive sense about when traps may be present?

Your argument makes no sense. It seems to be trying to argue that the rules say "At third level, the rogue's body becomes so accustomed to avoiding traps that it will sometimes react to traps without consciously being aware of them." Trouble is, the rules DON'T say that.

Except the rules DO say that. The fluff of the ability says 'intuitive sense' and then the mechanics reflect how that intuitive sense works. With the bonus to AC and Dodge, the Rogue and Barbarian will react on subconscious level or whatever to avoid the trap. It doesn't alert them to traps that are about to be set off, it acts as an involuntary reaction to avoid traps. That is how Reflex and AC bonuses work.

It does not mean that they intuitively know when there are traps nearby. If the Trap Sense worked that way then they wouldn't need to search for traps because they would already know that they are there.

[Math_Mage]

So my point is that Tarquin bends the rules because he's the type of PC who sits there and argues over the text of Trap Sense.

No, your point was that it was a joke meant to poke fun at the rule. I read your post pretty carefully, and that's what it said. You claimed that the Giant is lampshading Trap Sense.

But the Giant said nothing about Trap Sense. Many people who read this comic won't even know that's a potential joke. A solid majority of the people who DO know about Trap Sense don't think this was it. And Trap Sense has been joked about before.

Is that your opinion of how well the Giant writes humor? Written so that only a tiny fraction of the people who might 'get' the joke think it's even supposed to be funny, let alone actually funny?

Or is that, perhaps, an interpretation you imposed based not on the evidence, but on your desire to be correct?

It doesn't matter how we think it is *suppose* to work. That's irrelevant.

If the only way to support your argument that Trap Sense was used is to warp Trap Sense to the degree that it's another ability entirely, there's no difference between that and saying Trap Sense wasn't used. If the Giant wanted to establish that Trap Sense was being warped, he would first have to establish that Trap Sense was being used. He didn't.

The fact remains that no mechanic is necessary, and Trap Sense is not the mechanic that would be involved anyway. Even if FujinAkari's argument that Trap Sense heightens awareness of potential traps were true, it still would have nothing to do with generalized ambushes.

He is the player who says, "but it says 'an intuitive sense that alerts her' and I want to roll a reflex save to get in front instead of avoid. Oh it is an arrow? I have snatch arrow."

Is there anything--ANYTHING--in the comic so far to make you think Tarquin is in ANY way supposed to represent Dumb Rules Lawyer stereotypes? I previously mentioned using evidence, instead of your desire to be correct--where is the evidence?

-------------------------------------

No, Roy was arguing not to open the door. Haley was arguing to open it, and Haley wasn't the one who tried to stop Elan, Roy was. There is nothing in the strip to indicate that Haley had even a ounce of concern regarding potential traps on that door, all the concern was Roy's.

And who was going to actually open the door and potentially be exposed to another round of lethal traps? Right, not Haley.

But let's return to the main point of this strip reference, which is that Haley explained exactly why she was cautious about opening the first door, and it had nothing to do with heightened sensitivity to traps, but rather a logical consideration of the possibility of traps she was UNABLE to sense.

Yeah... exactly. I highlighted the relevant portion. Rogues have an intuitive sense that alerts them to danger from traps. How in the world can that NOT mean that Rogues have an intuitive sense about when traps may be present?

It's the difference between spotting the trip wire, and spotting the knives as they whirl out from the previously unnoticed gaps in the wall. The one might be called a heightened sensitivity to traps, while the other might be called a heightened sensitivity to danger from the traps' effects.

Your argument makes no sense. It seems to be trying to argue that the rules say "At third level, the rogue's body becomes so accustomed to avoiding traps that it will sometimes react to traps without consciously being aware of them." Trouble is, the rules DON'T say that.

It would help if you used the actual words I used. Then you might avoid troublesome misunderstandings like this. For example, you might use the paragraph prior to this one.

Let me remind you, YOU are the one who is arguing that irrespective of Haley's explicitly given reasoning for avoiding Door #1, she had a subconscious caution towards that door which had nothing to do with her ability to actually find the traps. I am arguing that Haley's familiarity with the mechanisms of a sprung trap makes her better able to dodge them.

My reading is consistent with the actual use of Trap Sense in the comic (as opposed to a situation where a malformed version of Trap Sense could have been used, maybe, without letting anyone know about it, including Haley herself). It is consistent with the mechanics of Trap Sense (yours isn't). And it is at least equally consistent with the fluff description of Trap Sense (see previous section). There is no way in which your interpretation is superior.

Haley was certainly closer than her "safe distance" from potential traps from the previous strip, which can only mean

I'm going to stop you right there, because that phrasing means you're too invested in your own interpretation of events to even consider other points of view, with such arguments as...
-The Giant is setting up a joke about traps in strip #36, whereas he's trying to get the Order through the door in strip #43.
-Trap Sense already has an appearance in the comic, and its usage in that case was identical to the rules mechanics, so any interpretation of the comic that hinges on ignoring the rules mechanics of Trap Sense is probably wrong.
-Similarly, any reading of the Trap Sense fluff that abandons the crunch because it's inconsistent with the fluff should be reconsidered.

[Smolder]

Ah, but our pointless bickering in these threads is some of the most fun I see on the internets as it is generally good natured.

And if trap sense gave a bonus to percerption or spot checks regarding traps i would give more credence to the "helps find if traps is there" interpretation. As it is the bonuses are all linked to avoiding the effects of a trap. This makes the "figures out based on being a rouge/barbarian what a trap may do and instinctively makes preparations for it" interpretation seem more credible to me.

Isn't it true that in the Ootsverse, people are aware of their own rolls, at least successful rolls, anyway, and occasionally unsuccessful ones? Perhaps it was some other roll that tipped him off? Like a roll for initiative or a spot check. Even a failed listen check would be enough to sense an ambush.

[Math_Mage]

Isn't it true that in the Ootsverse, people are aware of their own rolls, at least successful rolls, anyway, and occasionally unsuccessful ones? Perhaps it was some other roll that tipped him off? Like a roll for initiative or a spot check. Even a failed listen check would be enough to sense an ambush.

It's been lampshaded before...but the point of failing those checks is that you DON'T sense the ambush.

[SoC175]

I don't know the specifics, but Haley likely had an enormous penalty to her attack roll for trying to shoot around five mummies. The attack clearly -needed- that arrow to make it to the LG, and the mummies effectively provided some sort of cover.

This means it is likely that had Tarquin simply shouted a warning, Haley would have a very low chance of actually hitting anyone's AC. However, Tarquin opted to catch the arrow and look awesome... which is precisely what Haley expected and precisely why the episode is -not- meant to make Tarquin look awesome.

But the arrow has to hit for it to be catched instead. If the attack misses the feats can be triggered

[Gusion]

No, your point was that it was a joke meant to poke fun at the rule. I read your post pretty carefully, and that's what it said. You claimed that the Giant is lampshading Trap Sense.

Technically that's only half of what I originally said.

But the Giant said nothing about Trap Sense.

Asked and answered already.

Is that your opinion of how well the Giant writes humor?

Or is that, perhaps, an interpretation you imposed based not on the evidence, but on your desire to be correct?

Ooooh! A personal attack! I got a warning based on saying something similar once.

If the only way to support your argument that Trap Sense was used is to warp Trap Sense to the degree that it's another ability entirely...

You know, you're distorting the plain language of the text by deciding that part of it is inherently "fluff" - I'm sorry, is there somewhere in the rules that supports this? Is there some paragraph perhaps that states, "Ignore the description of any ability or spell and only pay attention to specific game mechanics"?

Is there anything--ANYTHING--in the comic so far to make you think Tarquin is in ANY way supposed to represent Dumb Rules Lawyer stereotypes? I previously mentioned using evidence, instead of your desire to be correct--where is the evidence?

Oooh! Another personal attack! Well, the same one again... how about some diversity?

One person's "genre wise" is another person's "rules lawyer." It depends if you're a Tarquin fan or not.

[Omergideon]

Isn't it true that in the Ootsverse, people are aware of their own rolls, at least successful rolls, anyway, and occasionally unsuccessful ones? Perhaps it was some other roll that tipped him off? Like a roll for initiative or a spot check. Even a failed listen check would be enough to sense an ambush.

This is not exactly related to what I said in your quote......but still. Yeah a failed check means you do not spot something, even the blindingly obvious army of Goblin ninjas standing around you at that moment. Though it is true that in OoTS people know about their rolls and have some awareness of the numbers involved. So they may know they failed a spot check (Elan/Belkar in strip 3), or not be aware of failures (such as Haley's trapfinding that has been discussed already).

So if he failed a spot check, T might have noticed that and concluded something from it. It is a reasonable explanation, the best so far maybe. He notices a failed spot check and realises what it means, unlike most. But he does not display such reasoning in the comic.

And Guison, we Tarquin fan/haters have more variety than the mere 2 choices presented. FYI

[Math_Mage]

Technically that's only half of what I originally said.

I refer you to your own post.

A recurring part of the comic strip is making fun of how stupid some of the D&D rules are. Rich has poked fun of various parts of the game throughout the strip's history. 3.5 has plenty of opportunities to do this, so I don't see it stopping anytime soon.

I think Tarquin's abuse of Trap Sense in this comic is just another example of that. Why? Because the rule description that, "At 3rd level, a rogue gains an intuitive sense that alerts her to danger from traps" is kinda silly. And yes you'll see people argue that it means this or that and it is not applicable... but that's not the point. The point is that rule is silly and vague and Rich is poking fun at it... and as a result of it combined with his hubris the action backfired.

My guess is some explanation could come in the next few strips, but probably not as they will be used for battle... and most people would rather see the battle than Nale asking daddy how he did it and Tarquin giving a witty reply about his class levels.

Would you like to actually discuss the arguments?

Asked and answered already.

Apparently, you wouldn't.

You "answered" the question of whether Tarquin even has Trap Sense by saying, "Who the hell knows? I don't, but I'm right anyway." We also see you hemming and hawing when provided a direct example of how Trap Sense actually works in the comic. Hemming and hawing that was subsequently refuted, by the way.

I submit that those are not meaningful answers.

Ooooh! A personal attack! I got a warning based on saying something similar once.

That's nice.

You know, you're distorting the plain language of the text by deciding that part of it is inherently "fluff" - I'm sorry, is there somewhere in the rules that supports this? Is there some paragraph perhaps that states, "Ignore the description of any ability or spell and only pay attention to specific game mechanics"?

Call it "descriptive" text, then. It makes no difference. Certainly, when discussing the mechanical effect of the ability, only the mechanical text is relevant. However, since I did not ignore the descriptive text, that's a straw man. I explicitly discussed the descriptive text at some length.

Oooh! Another personal attack! Well, the same one again... how about some diversity?

How about some evidence? No? Are you conceding the point, then?

One person's "genre wise" is another person's "rules lawyer." It depends if you're a Tarquin fan or not.

First, let me be clear about your argument. Your statement implicitly claims that Tarquin used his genre savviness to manipulate the Trap Sense ability so he could use it for an unintended purpose, and that the Trap Sense ability let him know there was an ambush.

There are two problems with this. First, rules-lawyering the meaning of the Trap Sense ability has nothing to do with genre savvy. Manipulating a particular mechanic (that, need I remind you, we don't even know he has) through deliberate misunderstanding is in no way related to an understanding of dramatic conventions. Second, Tarquin's genre savvy by itself is sufficient to explain how he knew there was an ambush, so you have eliminated the need for this grotesque caricature of Trap Sense.

You're only hurting your own position with this argument. And since you have not substantively addressed my other points...

[Gusion]

Would you like to actually discuss the arguments?

It seems like the "arguments" at this point are, "I think it means this" and the other person saying "I think it means that."

Apparently, you wouldn't.

Are you purposefully trying to come off as a jerk? I'm just wondering. I tried to just give you the implication you were doing so but now you're coming across as... proud of it?

Hemming and hawing that was subsequently refuted, by the way.

His "refutation" amounts to, "Haley is doing what I think she's doing." All the "evidence" is just how we choose to interpret past events that can be explained away on both sides. For instance, I could say - oh, wait, I did - that maybe Haley simply wasn't advanced level enough whereas Tarquin is.

I submit that those are not meaningful answers.

As you put it:

That's nice.

Call it "descriptive" text, then. It makes no difference.

If you really think there is no difference between calling something "fluff" and "descriptive" than we are so far apart there isn't any point in discussing it with you anymore.

Manipulating a particular mechanic (that, need I remind you, we don't even know he has)

Sure, I'll agree that we don't KNOW he has it. I gave my reasoning for it, and some others thought it is certainly possible he has at least some rogue levels. Obviously you disagree and think it is beyond possible. So perhaps you know that he doesn't?

Second, Tarquin's genre savvy by itself is sufficient to explain how he knew there was an ambush, so you have eliminated the need for this grotesque caricature of Trap Sense.

Sufficient to... you. Because you say so. You constantly keep making judgments and calling them facts. Whether *anything* is sufficient or not is not a fact, unless Giant says so as it is his comic.

[Math_Mage]

His "refutation" amounts to, "Haley is doing what I think she's doing." All the "evidence" is just how we choose to interpret past events that can be explained away on both sides. For instance, I could say - oh, wait, I did - that maybe Haley simply wasn't advanced level enough whereas Tarquin is.

-Haley isn't just doing "what I think she's doing"; she's doing what the comic says she's doing. The point of that series of panels is to lampshade Trap Sense; it doesn't make sense if you assume Haley isn't actually using the ability in that panel.
-Now you are supposing a fundamental change in the way Trap Sense works as character level scales that isn't reflected anywhere in the text of Trap Sense--descriptive, mechanical, anywhere. This is making up ability text out of whole cloth, which is not substantively different from simply homebrewing a new ability. You certainly can't lampshade Trap Sense by making up ability text to joke about. Which poses the question: do we have any reason to suppose Tarquin is mucking around with Trap Sense, rather than doing something else? If you answer nothing else from this post, I'd like to see you answer this question.

If you really think there is no difference between calling something "fluff" and "descriptive" than we are so far apart there isn't any point in discussing it with you anymore.

Well and good. Then perhaps, instead of discussing whether I call it "fluff" or "descriptive" text, you can address the actual points I made with respect to the text in question:

It's the difference between spotting the trip wire, and spotting the knives as they whirl out from the previously unnoticed gaps in the wall. The one might be called a heightened sensitivity to traps, while the other might be called a heightened sensitivity to danger from the traps' effects.
[...]
I am arguing that Haley's familiarity with the mechanisms of a sprung trap makes her better able to dodge them.

You claimed I was calling "fluff" text by that name in order to marginalize it so I could ignore it; this evidence that I haven't ignored it should be sufficient refutation of that argument.

Sure, I'll agree that we don't KNOW he has it. I gave my reasoning for it, and some others thought it is certainly possible he has at least some rogue levels. Obviously you disagree and think it is beyond possible. So perhaps you know that he doesn't?

You did not give any reasoning to support your conclusion that Tarquin is using Trap Sense. You started by assuming he was abusing it, and then speculated that the Giant was using this to lampshade the absurdity of Trap Sense. The burden of proof is on you; you have provided nothing.

Sufficient to... you. Because you say so. You constantly keep making judgments and calling them facts. Whether *anything* is sufficient or not is not a fact, unless Giant says so as it is his comic.

I, on the other hand, HAVE explained my reasoning for why Tarquin doesn't need a special ability to explain his intuition that an ambush was imminent. A number of other people also gave their explanations, so no, it's not just sufficient to ME.

---

We know how Trap Sense works in the rules. We know how Trap Sense works in the comic. The effect in this strip is markedly different from both; Trap Sense is not mentioned; and we have no reason to believe Tarquin has Trap Sense from any source. So, I reiterate: do we have any reason to suppose Tarquin is mucking around with Trap Sense, rather than doing something else?

[FujinAkari]

Ooooh! A personal attack! I got a warning based on saying something similar once.

Yeaaah... I think I'm done here.

When discussions begin to devolve to the point where a person begins attacking the poster, rather than discussing the idea... then it really isn't worth arguing about.

[EmperorSarda]

Originally Posted by Math_Mage
Is there anything--ANYTHING--in the comic so far to make you think Tarquin is in ANY way supposed to represent Dumb Rules Lawyer stereotypes? I previously mentioned using evidence, instead of your desire to be correct--where is the evidence?

Oooh! Another personal attack! Well, the same one again... how about some diversity?

Asking for evidence in lieu of personal conjectures is hardly a personal attack, but that of course is for the mods to decide.

However, Math Mage is correct. You have said nothing to counter the arguments about Comic #98 at how Trap Sense is actually used. Instead you reform Trap Sense to some alternate form because of the possibility that Tarquin has some levels in Rogue.

By the way, your argument that Trap Sense may change based on level does not work. While Tarquin may have some levels in Rogue he is a fighter overall. Trap Sense only improves itself with Rogue levels, not overall levels. And it is highly unlikely that Tarquin ever had more than 8 levels of rogue, which is what Haley started out with at the beginning of the comic.

So let's look at the facts; MM and I state that it cannot be Trap Sense based off how Trap Sense actually works and how it has been used in the comic, plus the fact that Trap Sense has not been lampshaded at all in the current comic.

You have conjecture based off the opinions of some that Tarquin could have some levels in Rogue and a misinterpretation of the fluff description of Trap Sense. Care to to try and offer something other than wild conjecture?

[lio45]

So if he failed a spot check, T might have noticed that and concluded something from it. It is a reasonable explanation, the best so far maybe.

Disagree. I think the best explanation (and by far) is that Tarquin simply has enough common sense and experience to correctly guess that the fleeing enemy party, in a dungeon totally unknown to all of them, is eventually going to stop and prepare an ambush.

Your argument makes no sense. It seems to be trying to argue that the rules say "At third level, the rogue's body becomes so accustomed to avoiding traps that it will sometimes react to traps without consciously being aware of them."

More like "At third level, the rogue has become so accustomed to traps that he/she will react slightly more quickly to the earliest little bits of information from a trap being sprung that reach his/her brain. Such bits of info might be things like a faint 'click' sound [hearing], an early glimpse of something moving on his/her side while in a hallway [sight], immediately noticing that he/she has tripped over a wire [touch], etc."

In other words... bonuses to Dodge and Reflex saves.

It doesn't help find traps, no.

[MeanMrsMustard]

Hate to interrupt, but how does it make more sense for Tarquin to take levels in barbarian, a class that can't be lawful, than in rogue, a class with no alignment restrictions? Of course, I don't really think he has levels in either. I don't want to speculate on his class…

[ti'esar]

Not that I'm really following this anymore anyway... but where did anyone mention Tarquin having barbarian levels?

[WindStruck]

Not that I'm really following this anymore anyway... but where did anyone mention Tarquin having barbarian levels?

I read it somewhere. When they brought up rogue has trap sense, someone also chimed in saying barbarian can get trap sense too.

[The Giant]

Tarquin does not have Trap Sense. Tarquin simply made a very difficult Spot check against Haley's Hide when no one else did, and was able to deduce from that what was about to happen.

I don't usually bother making fun of mechanics anymore, but if I do, I'm not that subtle about it.

[rewinn]

OK! Now that we've got the Trap Sense trap behind us (...it was an endless maze of illusory arguments anyway...) here's a new question:
What are the vertical brown lines in panel 9 (the long one with the arrow in flight)?
They are directly aligned with T's back heel but I'd guess that's a coincidence. If I had to guess, I'd go with

Spoiler

Show

...a symbol cast by Durkon ... he's so straight-laced that his Symbols are just straight lines!

...but I doubt it's that.

[oppyu]

Tarquin does not have Trap Sense. Tarquin simply made a very difficult Spot check against Haley's Hide when no one else did, and was able to deduce from that what was about to happen.

I don't usually bother making fun of mechanics anymore, but if I do, I'm not that subtle about it.

Do you realise how much pointless argument you could resolve if you nipped these circular speculative arguments one or two pages in?

OK! Now that we've got the Trap Sense trap behind us (...it was an endless maze of illusory arguments anyway...) here's a new question:
What are the vertical brown lines in panel 9 (the long one with the arrow in flight)?
They are directly aligned with T's back heel but I'd guess that's a coincidence. If I had to guess, I'd go with

Spoiler

Show

...a symbol cast by Durkon ... he's so straight-laced that his Symbols are just straight lines!

...but I doubt it's that.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0855.html

Either a saw blade trap, or some kind of shifting wall trap.

[zimmerwald1915]

Do you realise how much pointless argument you could resolve if you nipped these circular speculative arguments one or two pages in?

The Giant needs something to laugh at, same as us.