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  1. - Top - End - #241
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    Default Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Too weak and ineffectual to be a proper replacement for the senile old man who talked to his cat, who they tolerated because they believed him to be pretty much extinction-level weak and ineffectual? We apparently haven't been reading the same comic. The nobles, led by Kubota, objected to Hinjo because he seemed likely to actually rule. He lost the war and the city in large part because he was fighting against treacherous nobles at the same time he was fighting against Xykon.
    Yes, exactly. The nobles' objection was that playtime was over, not that Hinjo wasn't a viable leader. Absent the imminent threat of Xykon, there would have been a lot of grumbling and jockeying for position before all their hidden schemes that Shojo tolerated by pitting them against one another were systematically exposed and shut down. Even the first wave of ninjas sent in #414 only appeared because the nobles (mistakenly) thought they could save their own skins from Xykon with Hinjo out of the way.
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  2. - Top - End - #242
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    Default Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Sure, if what you want is to find out who did a particular deed. In a world were you can know whose evil though, why not just lock the evil people up?
    Preventing evil people from causing harm is the silver medal. The goal is to cause evil people to provide benefit, whether by redeeming them or by channeling their evil impulses in helpful ways. Indeed, this second approach is what Roy is trying to do with Belkar.

  3. - Top - End - #243
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    Default Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS

    Post cleared as ninjaed by Giant and therefore irrelevant.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    Last edited by pendell; 2013-06-06 at 08:55 PM.
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  4. - Top - End - #244
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    Default Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    You're proposing a city ruled by someone with unlimited access to this spell, who uses it to determine who can enter the city and who gets slaughtered for trying, correct? And everyone in the city's government knows that the ruler is not actually a Lawful Evil cleric of Vecna who is ecstatic about the excuse to kill anyone she wants to kill--somehow?
    Because a sizeable proportion of the citizens can also cast Foolproof Detect Evil on members of their government, including the supreme leader. There. Problem solved. The handy thing about information is that it can't be easily monopolised.

    Yes, it's possible to fool DE. My point is that, if you want the kind of game where you actually have to think about the morality of suspects and gather evidence for specific wrongdoing, don't have an alignment system. Otherwise, your effort is basically wasted on anything except bigger, better versions of Detect Evil.

    Yes, not all criminals are evil. But this, by definition, means they aren't doing any real harm, so there's not much point to going after them. Once they do start doing much harm, or even according to some definitions, thinking hard about it, they'll show up automagically on Evil-Dar.

    Yes, it is technically possible to be Evil while only committing only minor Evil acts, but this is just a question of recalibrating your sensors, or in effect, what counts as 'Evil' at all. No-one disputes that there is a certain threshold of throbbing crimson malevolence that absolutely merits smiting, and if you can magically detect Evil, you might as well be able to detect Evil Enough. It isn't really any more vaguely defined.

  5. - Top - End - #245
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    Default Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Quote:

    In Eberron Campaign Setting, it mentions - in the section that discusses alignment- that Evil characters vary a lot- and a player can't assume that a person being evil means that they deserve to be attacked by adventurers- they might be a cruel innkeeper, or a very mercenary legal advocate.

    Quintessential Paladin II (a third party book) actually discusses the various campaign models-
    one of which has Good, Neutral, and Evil humans occurring with roughly equal frequency,
    Quote:
    Low Grade Evil Everywhere
    In some campaigns, the common population is split roughly evenly among the various alignments - the kindly old grandmother who gives boiled sweets to children is Neutral Good and that charming rake down the pub is Chaotic Neutral. Similarly the thug lurking in the alleyway is Chaotic Evil, while the grasping landlord who throws granny out on the street because she's a copy behind on the rent is Lawful Evil.

    In such a campaign up to a third of the population will detect as Evil to the paladin. This low grade Evil is a fact of life, and is not something the paladin can defeat. Certainly he should not draw his greatsword and chop the landlord in twain just because he has a mildly tainted aura. It might be appropriate for the paladin to use Diplomacy (or Intimidation) to steer the landlord toward the path go good but stronger action is not warranted.

    In such a campaign detect evil cannot be used to infallibly detect villainy, as many people are a little bit evil. if he casts detect evil on a crowded street, about a third of the population will detect as faintly evil.
    one of which has Neutral being significantly commoner than the others,
    Quote:
    Evil As A Choice
    A similar campaign set-up posits that most people are some variety of Neutral. The old granny might do good by being kind to people, but this is a far cry from capital-G Good, which implies a level of dedication, fervour and sacrifice which she does not possess. If on the other hand our granny brewed alchemical healing potions into those boiled sweets or took in and sheltered orphans and strays off the street, then she might qualify as truly Good.

    Similarly, minor acts of cruelty and malice are not truly Evil on the cosmic scale. Our greedy and grasping landlord might be nasty and mean, but sending the bailiffs round to throw granny out might not qualify as Evil (although if granny is being thrown out into a chill winter or torrential storm, then that is tantamount to murder and would be Evil). In such a campaign, only significant acts of good or evil can tip a character from Neutrality to being truly Good or Evil.

    if a paladin in this campaign uses detect evil on a crowded street, he will usually detect nothing, as true evil is rare. Anyone who detects as Evil, even faintly Evil, is probably a criminal, a terrible and wilful sinner, or both. Still, the paladin is not obligated to take action - in this campaign, detecting that someone is Evil is a warning, not a call to arms. The paladin should probably investigate this person and see if they pose a danger to the common folk, but he cannot automatically assume that this particular Evil person deserves to be dealt with immediately.
    and in one Evil and Good are so rare as to be supernaturally associated- even serial killers are not Evil aligned (for Detection purposes) unless they're doing it as part of devotion to a fiend or evil deity.
    Quote:
    Evil As A Supernatural Taint
    Another alternative is that Evil is essentially a supernatural quality, a spiritual taint that comes only from dark powers. Merely human evil would not be detected by the paladin's power - only monsters, undead, outsiders, and those who traffic with dark powers are Evil on this scale.

    A murderer who kills randomly would be evil on the human scale, but the paladin's senses operate on a divine level. However, if this murderer were killing as part of a sacrificial ritual to summon a demon, then his evil would be supernatural in nature and therefore detectable by the paladin.

    In this campaign, a positive result on detect evil means that the paladin should immediately take action. This is a morally black-and-white set-up - anyone who is Evil should be investigated or even attacked immediately.
    Suffice to say that this last does not fit "standard 3.5 D&D" at least (maybe other editions) - though the other two could both be argued as valid interpretations of 3.5 alignment.
    That sourcebook probably wrapped up the points to be made about possible levels of evil, though whether a paladin is obligated to take immediate action upon detecting evil is a different question from the one I will take a stance in. I have given the opinion that it is possible for authorities to take some sort of action against evil people on detection alone without themselves committing an evil act. My idea of evil in alignment was along the lines of the middle case given in the sourcebook (which I think alone represents standard D&D), with only seriously villanous people registering, not a third of humanity.
    Last edited by Reddish Mage; 2013-06-07 at 08:38 AM. Reason: Fixed language. Elaborated a bit. Put in the entire original quote
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
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  6. - Top - End - #246
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    Default Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS

    Quote Originally Posted by wumpus View Post
    Anybody know when the Know Alignment (second level cleric spell, reversable to Mask Alignment (DM's choice to allow good clerics to reverse the spell*)) spell was removed from D&D? It was included in 1e, but isn't in d20srd.org, so I assume it was removed either in 2e or 3e, presumably to require an extreme aura.
    Know Alignment was removed in 3.X.

    I could see Belkar's (and Xykon and Redcloak if they showed without an army) evil aura being sufficient "probable cause" to have a large chunk of the police force sent to tail him wherever he goes.
    Why else do you think Belkar carries his lead sheet around? To prove his manhood?

  7. - Top - End - #247
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    Default Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS

    Quote Originally Posted by Carry2 View Post
    My point is that, if you want the kind of game where you actually have to think about the morality of suspects and gather evidence for specific wrongdoing, don't have an alignment system.
    If you think that the alignment system is inherently flawed and needs to be thrown out if you want any flexibility or subtlety or moral uncertainty at all, then I could see how my narrative that assumes the exact opposite would be confusing.

    This makes your initial question, "Why doesn't your story reinforce my simplistic reductionist view of a system that I don't like?" And the answer is, because I am writing partly to specifically refute those views. Characters like Shojo and Tarquin are designed partly to make the story more complex, more nuanced, and more applicable to the moral complexity of the real world. If they can't be simplistically pegged, then I've succeeded.
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  8. - Top - End - #248
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    Default Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    "Feudal warlords?" Huh, I didn't know that I had put any of those in the strip. Oh, wait, that's because I didn't. The nobles of Azure City have small personal defense forces. Each noble has maybe 20 samurai and 100 men-at-arms, at most, plus some casters and maybe ninjas if they lean that way.
    I'm going to limit this to a few point, since I'm pretty tired.

    * For the record, I don't out-of-hand reject any of the alignment criteria which have been suggested in this thread, either by yourself or others. I am open to the possibility of alignment-based-on-consequence, alignment-based-on-temperament-or-goal, alignment-based-on-methods, alignment-based-on-local-standards, or any weighting or recombination of the above. There are good arguments for each of these. But pulling on one thread here always yanks at another part of the fabric.

    * Even in the scenario where the nobles have no significant armed forces- which is at odds with all the tropes of feudal nobility and Hinjo's eagerness to enlist their aid during the battle for azure city- you're still describing a situation akin to Menzoberranzan politics, which is neither L nor G. This kind of 'uncertainty' was not being resolved with reform, it was being resolved with knives in the senate.

    * Yes, I can make up the details in my head on this point as to why Shojo is CG and as to why Tarquin is LE. But that means I'm making up my own story in which it happens that Shojo is unambiguously CG and Tarquin is clear-cut LE.

    [The] moral lesson of Shojo is already front and center. There is a difference between, "This story has a lesson about the consequences of your actions"...
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    I can't really wrap my head against this idea that his reign wasn't Good because the things he did could have lead to other people performing Evil acts at some vague future point, even though it didn't.
    Well, if the story has a lesson about the consequences of your actions, I'm not sure I see the connection. If the city being razed by invading enemies and falling into near-anarchy is Not His Fault, then Shojo's story is not about the consequences of his actions. Shojo cannot be simultaneously credited and not-credited for essentially random external factors like Xykon's invasion and Miko going haywire. (I mean, Miko's particularly slippery slope was well and thoroughly greased.) If, on the other hand, the point you wanted to make was that Shojo's policies should have worked really great under ordinary circumstances, then this is not obvious from the strip.

    TL:DR- Fine, I must have gotten the wrong impression. But that impression was easy to get.

  9. - Top - End - #249
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    Default Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This makes your initial question, "Why doesn't your story reinforce my simplistic reductionist view of a system that I don't like?" And the answer is, because I am writing partly to specifically refute those views. Characters like Shojo and Tarquin are designed partly to make the story more complex, more nuanced, and more applicable to the moral complexity of the real world. If they can't be simplistically pegged, then I've succeeded.
    Well, yes. And that is a large part of why I find those characters, and others like them (Miko, Redcloak, possibly Haley)- to be interesting. But they are interesting in large part because they do not unambiguously belong under their alignment labels. Everything you've done to make them interesting also makes their lawness, goodness, evilness or chaoticness less distinct. I don't consider that a problem with the characters or the story, but my point is that- given the degree to which lengthy and acrimonious debates on this topic apparently distress you- it might be better to either (A) forego the labels or (B) colour within the lines.

    Because whether you intend them as examples of their alignment or not, or consider it your job, is beside the point. They are in the story, shoehorned into these ill-fitting boxes, with big fat labels on their heads, and possibly propagating yet-more confusing notions about the alignment system. Whether or not that is your goal, it is a potential side-effect of your actions.

    .
    Last edited by Carry2; 2013-06-06 at 09:59 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #250
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    Default Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS

    Quote Originally Posted by Carry2 View Post
    They are in the story, shoehorned into these ill-fitting boxes, with big fat labels on their heads, and possibly propagating yet-more confusing notions about the alignment system.
    When you only have nine boxes, yet you want to have varied multi-facted characters, that's sort of going to happen.

    For example, Belkar (v1.0 if necessary) and Xykon are clearly Chaotic Evil. Yet they have very different personalities and reactions to circumstances.

    Sometimes when you only have nine boxes, you're going to have to expand them a bit.

    PS: When you see a person for a very short time, it might be a... mistake to try to use that and only that to judge the totality of their alignment. Mostly because a person isn't a walking, talking, 100% on point exmplar of Sterotypical Alignment Poster Child.

    Eugene Greenhilt being the prime example.

    If all we say of Roy was him abandoning Elan and lying about the starmetal, would people have pegged him as LG?

    That's the undeniable side-effect of minor characters in a story.
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  11. - Top - End - #251
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    Default Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS

    Quote Originally Posted by Carry2 View Post
    * Even in the scenario where the nobles have no significant armed forces- which is at odds with all the tropes of feudal nobility and Hinjo's eagerness to enlist their aid during the battle for azure city- you're still describing a situation akin to Menzoberranzan politics, which is neither L nor G. This kind of 'uncertainty' was not being resolved with reform, it was being resolved with knives in the senate.
    "Hey, this bad thing happened in a mostly Evil city where a bunch of mostly Evil dark elves who worship totally Evil demons made a bunch of mostly Evil choices, so that means that the same thing MUST happen in a mostly Good city where a bunch of mostly Good humans who worship mostly Good gods and are likely to make mostly Good choices."

    Quote Originally Posted by Carry2 View Post
    * Yes, I can make up the details in my head on this point as to why Shojo is CG and as to why Tarquin is LE. But that means I'm making up my own story in which it happens that Shojo is unambiguously CG and Tarquin is clear-cut LE.
    So, your argument is that I'm supposed to dance on a string and write the scenes you want to read? Is that it? And that I'm somehow failing in my duties if I don't?

    The story is provided as-is, with no guarantees that it will answer every question you might have. If you don't like it, write your own story. Either a totally new one, or write some fanfiction in your head that fixes the perceived problems. But either way, you're not getting what you want from me. They have the alignments they have because of all the reasons I've already said on this thread in great length, and that's all you're getting. If you can't be satisfied with that, that's on you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carry2 View Post
    Well, if the story has a lesson about the consequences of your actions, I'm not sure I see the connection. If the city being razed by invading enemies and falling into near-anarchy is Not His Fault, then Shojo's story is not about the consequences of his actions. Shojo cannot be simultaneously credited and not-credited for essentially random external factors like Xykon's invasion and Miko going haywire. (I mean, Miko's particularly slippery slope was well and thoroughly greased.) If, on the other hand, the point you wanted to make was that Shojo's policies should have worked really great under ordinary circumstances, then this is not obvious from the strip.
    The story was about the consequences of his lie to the paladins, not to the nobles or the general populace. And the result of those actions was that one of the people he was lying to went nuts and killed him when they found out. That's it. That's all it was about. All this other stuff you care about with the government and the nobles and Law or Chaos—none of that matters to the story. That's just background information. It's not necessary, it's not interesting, it's just set-up. I wasn't making ANY point about the efficiency of Shojo's policies, because this is not a political treatise. It's an adventure story. If it fell apart, that had more to do with thrusting the protagonists into a less certain situation where they couldn't run to their patron to fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carry2 View Post
    TL:DR- Fine, I must have gotten the wrong impression. But that impression was easy to get.
    Not that easy, since these characters have existed for years and you're the first person to complain.
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  12. - Top - End - #252
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    Default Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Characters like Shojo and Tarquin are designed partly to make the story more complex, more nuanced, and more applicable to the moral complexity of the real world. If they can't be simplistically pegged, then I've succeeded.
    Genuine question/my two cents: Tarquin is intended to be complex? I thought the whole point of his rant on alignment was that he was deluded. He looked at the boxes of the alignment system and said "those don't apply to me", when in fact he fits perfectly into them. He claims to be morally grey and working for the greater good, but he's really just a horrible monster that needs to be put down. Evil with a capital E.

    I mean, that is a commentary of sorts on the alignment system, but from my perspective on the character, I don't really get "nuanced".
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  13. - Top - End - #253
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    Default Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Bookworm View Post
    Genuine question/my two cents: Tarquin is intended to be complex? I thought the whole point of his rant on alignment was that he was deluded. He looked at the boxes of the alignment system and said "those don't apply to me", when in fact he fits perfectly into them. He claims to be morally grey and working for the greater good, but he's really just a horrible monster that needs to be put down. Evil with a capital E.

    I mean, that is a commentary of sorts on the alignment system, but from my perspective on the character, I don't really get "nuanced".
    Tarquin has to be one of the goofiest, friendliest evil dictators a person is likely to ever meet, and his sons are very important to him. He has a long-term plan that has involved putting a lot of trust in some very powerful people.

    Sure, Tarquin is Evil, but he's not generic Evil. To put it another way, would you ever confuse Tarquin for some other villainous dictator?
    Last edited by Cavenskull; 2013-06-06 at 10:56 PM.

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    Default Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Bookworm View Post
    He claims to be morally grey and working for the greater good, but he's really just a horrible monster that needs to be put down. Evil with a capital E.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cavenskull View Post
    Tarquin has to be one of the goofiest, friendliest evil dictators a person is likely to ever meet, and his sons are very important to him. He has a long-term plan that has involved putting a lot of trust in some very powerful people.
    Tarquin makes these claims because he's either:
    • horribly self-deluded, or
    • knows what Good characters want/need to hear to justify his Evil actions.

    The first option relies on the 'But I'm so nice and friendly!' to delude himself into believing he's Good. But given his grand plan (at least part of which relies on the fact he runs an Evil Empire), his general genre-savvy and the genius political play he ran on Elan, I strongly favor the second option: Tarquin is just putting his Charisma to work and tells the most blatant bald-faced lies even to his Good son.
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    Default Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS

    Quote Originally Posted by Carry2 View Post
    I don't consider that a problem with the characters or the story, but my point is that- given the degree to which lengthy and acrimonious debates on this topic apparently distress you- it might be better to either (A) forego the labels or (B) colour within the lines.
    or (C), stop participating in message board arguments with people who want me to change what I'm doing to fit their own ideas.

    I think I'll do that one.
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    Default Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS

    Quote Originally Posted by Carry2 View Post
    Because whether you intend them as examples of their alignment or not, or consider it your job, is beside the point. They are in the story, shoehorned into these ill-fitting boxes, with big fat labels on their heads, and possibly propagating yet-more confusing notions about the alignment system. Whether or not that is your goal, it is a potential side-effect of your actions.
    I think it's pretty rare for a character to fit neatly within one of the nine (!) D&D alignment boxes with no possible arguments about their actions fitting a different alignment. It's a loose framework, there are only two axes.

    Rich seems to have a pretty good understanding of the alignment system in D&D. I think the characters mostly fit the labels they're given. Your disagreement doesn't make it Objectively Wrong.
    Last edited by rodneyAnonymous; 2013-06-07 at 12:02 AM.
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    Default Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS

    Quote Originally Posted by Carry2 View Post
    Because whether you intend them as examples of their alignment or not, or consider it your job, is beside the point. They are in the story, shoehorned into these ill-fitting boxes, with big fat labels on their heads, and possibly propagating yet-more confusing notions about the alignment system. Whether or not that is your goal, it is a potential side-effect of your actions.

    .
    There don't seem to be a whole lot of people who agree with you about this whole "Tarquin and Shojo should have similar alignments," thing jftr; there are a number of counterarguments to your analysis that you have not addressed (which, admittedly, is understandable, since there have been many from multiple sources).

    But the results of that sort of arguing aside, what, exactly, is the problem here? You said it doesn't detract from the story; what other reason is there to care, say, about how much Shojo's proven his alignment to be Chaotic Good? I fear I may be misunderstanding your point here, because it sounds like you're concerned that people will misunderstand the DnD alignment system from reading the comic, and I neither think that is the case nor that it would really matter anyway.
    Last edited by BroomGuys; 2013-06-06 at 11:55 PM.

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    Default Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS

    Quote Originally Posted by Porthos View Post
    I would also point out that if a certain paladin had been delayed by even twelve seconds, the city wouldn't have fallen.
    Just a small nitpick, Azure City's forces were routed, the High Priest of the 12 Gods slain. Sure, had Miko delayed 12 seconds and Soon destroyed Xykon and killed Redcloak, the castle would not have exploded with the gate. But there is still the massive issue of all the Hobgoblins to deal with.

    The city still would have fallen had Miko delayed.

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    Default Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    In my personal interpretation of Lawfulness in D&D, I believe that yes, it is possible to be Lawful using a personal code rather than the societal definitions of law and order. However, I believe that the burden of upholding that code has to be much stricter than that of the average person in order to actually qualify as Lawful. You must be willing to suffer personal detriment through adhesion to your code, without wavering, if you want to wear the Lawful hat.

    Because almost everyone has a personal code of some sort; Robin Hood had a personal code, and he's the poster child for Chaotic Good.
    I'm wondering- does it actually reverse for Chaos? That is- it's easier to remain Chaotic if one is so through personal code- than if one is so through external influences? Like- being in an Elven society, or an Orc society, or some other typically Chaotic one?
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    Default Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    I'm wondering- does it actually reverse for Chaos? That is- it's easier to remain Chaotic if one is so through personal code- than if one is so through external influences? Like- being in an Elven society, or an Orc society, or some other typically Chaotic one?
    I think the Chaotic alignment is a pretty easy one across the board: just don't have a personal code at all, and ignore all the external codes as well (insomuch as you can). If you live in a Chaotic society, that just means the law will get in your way less when you don't really care about it.

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    Default Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS

    Quote Originally Posted by Carry2 View Post
    * Even in the scenario where the nobles have no significant armed forces- which is at odds with all the tropes of feudal nobility and Hinjo's eagerness to enlist their aid during the battle for azure city
    Feudal nobility in Europe, maybe--Azure City is more based on Eastern ideas. (Although, even in Europe, the amount of men a noble had in their army was directly related to their wealth and influence--minor nobles wouldn't have many at all). As for Hinjo's eagerness to enlist their help, these were desperate times--so desperate that he was willing to get anybody out of prison who might help in the fight. There are quite a few nobles, and even if they each only have small forces, they would add up to quite a big difference on battle day!

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    Default Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS

    Quote Originally Posted by Carry2 View Post
    Because a sizeable proportion of the citizens can also cast Foolproof Detect Evil on members of their government, including the supreme leader. There. Problem solved. The handy thing about information is that it can't be easily monopolised.
    Where by "can't be" you mean "as long as a Sizable Proportion of the citizens can be declared to be arbitrarily high level spellcasters."
    Yes, it's possible to fool DE. My point is that, if you want the kind of game where you actually have to think about the morality of suspects and gather evidence for specific wrongdoing, don't have an alignment system.
    That's not a point. It's just an assertion, which you are prepared to reassert tirelessly. You have to think about the morality of suspects and gather evidence for D&D as it stands. If it's as simple as "cast Detect Evil, and declare the evil one guilty," either the DM was completely unprepared, the DM was deliberately choosing to make the situation a morally simplistic one where magic can smash the problem like a hammer, or the players who approach it that way are likely to stroll away having screwed up badly.
    Yes, not all criminals are evil. But this, by definition, means they aren't doing any real harm, so there's not much point to going after them. Once they do start doing much harm, or even according to some definitions, thinking hard about it, they'll show up automagically on Evil-Dar.
    Your goalposts are dancing around during this post. If the concern is "punishing people for the wrong thoughts is itself an evil act," suddenly your house-ruled special Detect Evil only detects actual and horrific guilt. If the concern is, "A system that relies on that spell will let most criminals go free," suddenly it picks up anyone who is thinking about committing any crime that's worth prosecuting.

    "Detect exactly and only people who need to be stopped, unfoolably, while everyone knows this is in fact the spell you're casting" is not 4th level at most, or epic level at most, or a spell that fits in the D&D magic system at all.
    Yes, it is technically possible to be Evil while only committing only minor Evil acts, but this is just a question of recalibrating your sensors, or in effect, what counts as 'Evil' at all. No-one disputes that there is a certain threshold of throbbing crimson malevolence that absolutely merits smiting,
    You mean, except all the people you've been arguing with? "Everyone knows I'm right" has more honesty than the dancing goalposts of Detect Evil that you've been arguing for, I'll say that for it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Carry2 View Post
    I don't consider that a problem with the characters or the story, but my point is that- given the degree to which lengthy and acrimonious debates on this topic apparently distress you- it might be better to either (A) forego the labels or (B) colour within the lines.
    You're the only one who's been trying to convince him that the alignment system gets in his way in this thread. So this reads like you telling him, "You should hop on your right foot instead of walking with both feet" for three days, and when he finally says rather angrily, "Look, I'm not having a problem walking the way I am," suggesting that walking with both feet clearly angers him.
    Last edited by Kish; 2013-06-07 at 06:43 AM.

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    Default Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS

    Yes, it's possible to fool DE. My point is that, if you want the kind of game where you actually have to think about the morality of suspects and gather evidence for specific wrongdoing, don't have an alignment system.
    Huh, I seem to recall one or more of the DMGs saying the exact opposite

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    Default Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS

    Quote Originally Posted by EmperorSarda View Post
    Just a small nitpick, Azure City's forces were routed, the High Priest of the 12 Gods slain. Sure, had Miko delayed 12 seconds and Soon destroyed Xykon and killed Redcloak, the castle would not have exploded with the gate. But there is still the massive issue of all the Hobgoblins to deal with.

    The city still would have fallen had Miko delayed.
    It's possible, but hardly guaranteed. The hobgoblin army was, I suspect, only acting in this kind of organized unison due to the power and influence of Xykon and Redcloak's direction. The loss of those 2 leaders would likely have been a large blow to the morale and cohesion of their army. While it may not have been easy or immediate I think high level characters like Hinjo, Haley, Durkon, V, and Elan, and probably a much more promptly raised Roy, would have been able to successfully divide and drive out the remaining threat.
    Last edited by pearl jam; 2013-06-07 at 06:46 AM.

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    Default Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS

    Quote Originally Posted by 137ben View Post
    Huh, I seem to recall one or more of the DMGs saying the exact opposite
    Heroes of Horror does, certainly.
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    Default Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS

    Quote Originally Posted by pearl jam View Post
    It's possible, but hardly guaranteed. The hobgoblin army was, I suspect, only acting in this kind of organized unison due to the power and influence of Xykon and Redcloak's direction.
    Xykon made an actual effort to be as un-involved in the planning and direction of the battle as possible. He was absent and invisible for the army's deployment and the initial engagements, and after he was revealed he was never in a position to give orders - nor did he try. Even if he'd done exactly what the plan called for, he would have been completely separated from the rest of the army for most of the battle, not in a position to give orders. By the time Redcloak was separated from the rest of the army, both the outer and inner walls had already been breached, and the Azurite army had already begun to rout or desert.

    The loss of those 2 leaders would likely have been a large blow to the morale and cohesion of their army.
    So? Again, by the time the loss of those two leaders became a real possibility, the army had already overrun large portions of the city, and, more importantly, the enemy army had largely ceased to exist as an effective opposition. That's not the kind of momentum that's easy to reverse.

    While it may not have been easy or immediate I think high level characters like Hinjo, Haley, Durkon, V, and Elan, and probably a much more promptly raised Roy, would have been able to successfully divide and drive out the remaining threat.
    Again, timing rears its ugly head. By the time Miko destroyed the Gate (that is, at the time when eliminating Xykon and Redcloak became a real possibility), both V and Durkon were out of spells, to add insult to injury V was separated from the party, and Elan was out of puns and had no idea how to effectively employ his other abilities. What's more, Haley explicitly disagreed with you that the Order plus Hinjo "would have been able to successfully divide and drive out the remaining threat".

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    Default Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Heroes of Horror does, certainly.
    I'm AFB right now...
    It actually might have been the 4e DMG or DMGII, (I found both of those contained useful information for 3e DMs, too, especially the DMGII).

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    Default Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    I'm wondering- does it actually reverse for Chaos? That is- it's easier to remain Chaotic if one is so through personal code- than if one is so through external influences? Like- being in an Elven society, or an Orc society, or some other typically Chaotic one?
    Quote Originally Posted by BroomGuys View Post
    I think the Chaotic alignment is a pretty easy one across the board: just don't have a personal code at all, and ignore all the external codes as well (insomuch as you can). If you live in a Chaotic society, that just means the law will get in your way less when you don't really care about it.
    I think the premise is that following a personal code is a Lawful activity in and of itself. A code being system of rules, I further surmise the "code" under discussion is a particularly systemic one and the rules prescribing clear behaviors.

    Chaotic aligned are instead guided by vague principles that provide a great deal of flexibility.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

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    Default Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Interesting, that. Don't you think?
    So we can take this as author confirmation that Nale isn't Lawful?
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    Default Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS

    Quote Originally Posted by Burner28 View Post
    So we can take this as author confirmation that Nale isn't Lawful?
    :point towards class and level geekery thread and the "Is Nale Lawful?" thread:
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

    Thanks to half-halfling for the avatar

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