[3.5] Frenzied Berserker: How do I Avoid Killing My Fellow Adventurers?

[Slipperychicken]

Exactly what it says in the title.

I'm making a barbarian with levels of Frenzied Berserker (CW 36). For those of you not familiar with the class, the Frenzy (Ex) is essentially a rage which specifies that the user *must* attack the closest creatures "without regard to innocence, friendship, or health" and "to the best of her ability".

Someone already pointed it out to me that I can't use Iron Heart Surge to get rid of it, because that would impede my character from attacking the nearest creature to the "best of her ability".


I already know about letting casters use Calm Emotions or just generally shut me down until the Frenzy ends, but I'm looking for a way to reliably end it for those times when Mr. Wizard isn't available.

[Lhurgyof]

Hmm, I thought you only started attacking allies when you were all out of enemies...

Anywho, I'd say get a good will save. A damn good will save.

[Reynard]

Buy them Wands of Grease out of your own pocket.

[Derjuin]

Well, you can end a frenzy with a Will save (DC 20 I believe), so taking Steadfast Determination to get your Con to Will saves instead of Wisdom should help (unless your Wisdom is higher than your Con, for whatever reason); you could also see if your DM would let you use the Righteous Wrath feat to be able to control yourself during a frenzy (it only states Rage in BoED) and not smack your allies. Problem with Righteous Wrath is that it's an Exalted feat, which carries a heavy Good-aligned RP requirement.

Part of Righteous Wrath's description:

Spoiler

Show

While raging, you maintain clarity of mind unusual among barbarians. You are perfectly able to deal nonlethal damage, stop your attacks to show mercy, and distinguish friend from foe even in the heat of your rage.

[Bobbis]

Yeah, will saves. Iron Will, Cloak of Resistance +5, Periapt of Wisdom, Heroism before a major fight, etc.

Boost it as high as you can. If you're going ubercharger, you don't want to fail that save.

[JeminiZero]

1) Have your character buy a sap. Doesn't need to be masterwork or anything, so it should be reasonably cheap.
2) Out of Character, arrange for your fellow players to have their characters regale your character with bizarre stories on how their secret super weakness is the humble Sap.
3) Intentionally, fail your sense motive check for their outlandish lies.
4) Your character now believes that your entire party has a secret weakness against saps.
5) When you run out of enemies, your character will now attack his friends "to the best of his ability". That will of course involve him pulling out the sap, their one secret weakness (or so he thinks) and hammering them into unconsciousness, but not death.

Step 1-4 are unnecessary if your caster can just mindrape you into believing that your friends are weak against saps.

[herrhauptmann]

Well, you can end a frenzy with a Will save (DC 20 I believe), so taking Steadfast Determination to get your Con to Will saves instead of Wisdom should help (unless your Wisdom is higher than your Con, for whatever reason); you could also see if your DM would let you use the Righteous Wrath feat to be able to control yourself during a frenzy (it only states Rage in BoED) and not smack your allies. Problem with Righteous Wrath is that it's an Exalted feat, which carries a heavy Good-aligned RP requirement.

Part of Righteous Wrath's description:

Spoiler

Show

While raging, you maintain clarity of mind unusual among barbarians. You are perfectly able to deal nonlethal damage, stop your attacks to show mercy, and distinguish friend from foe even in the heat of your rage.

Bigger problem I always felt, isn't trying to end a frenzy. It's starting a frenzy involuntarily. THAT Will save has a DC equal to 10+damage taken. So it could easily end up in the 30s and 40s before level 10. Worse, that one will often take place as part of a surprise round, or a trap. The party might not be prepared to suddenly shut down your frenzy, and if you go first, you could end up power attacking them into oblivion before they get a chance to grease/calm/hamstring you.

As for Righteous Wrath, could work, but make sure it works for a Frenzy as well as a Rage before you take it. In other words, ask the DM.

[Zaeron]

1) Have your character buy a sap. Doesn't need to be masterwork or anything, so it should be reasonably cheap.
2) Out of Character, arrange for your fellow players to have their characters regale your character with bizarre stories on how their secret super weakness is the humble Sap.
3) Intentionally, fail your sense motive check for their outlandish lies.
4) Your character now believes that your entire party has a secret weakness against saps.
5) When you run out of enemies, your character will now attack his friends "to the best of his ability". That will of course involve him pulling out the sap, their one secret weakness (or so he thinks) and hammering them into unconsciousness, but not death.

Step 1-4 are unnecessary if your caster can just mindrape you into believing that your friends are weak against saps.

This is probably the single coolest thing I've ever read on these forums. I laughed, long and hard. Bravo. Bravo. =)

[Amphetryon]

Buy them Wands of Grease out of your own pocket.

+1. Something like this:

"Sometimes, when Ogg fight, Ogg go CRAZY! Really crazy. Want to kill bad guys, good guys, doors, everbuddy. When Ogg go crazy like dat, Ogg need Magic Man to point dis slick stick *hands over Wand of Grease to party Arcanist* unner Ogg feets. Everbuddy get away from Ogg den until Ogg not crazy no more. OK?"

[Vangor]

Begin the day in somewhere relatively inescapable for your character and burn through Frenzy. You can now no longer accidentally trigger Frenzy when damaged, and you never have to concern yourself with hurting another player. All you need is a little healing and you are fine.

Now, spend the feats you would on Endurance, Steadfast Determination, and Iron Will on those which actually assist your power attack. Frenzy is icing when possible, not the source of damage which power attack is by itself.

[Yukitsu]

I always buy a bag or two of steel ball bearings whenever a freind plays a frenzied berserker.

[mucat]

1) Have your character buy a sap. Doesn't need to be masterwork or anything, so it should be reasonably cheap.
2) Out of Character, arrange for your fellow players to have their characters regale your character with bizarre stories on how their secret super weakness is the humble Sap.
3) Intentionally, fail your sense motive check for their outlandish lies.
4) Your character now believes that your entire party has a secret weakness against saps.
5) When you run out of enemies, your character will now attack his friends "to the best of his ability". That will of course involve him pulling out the sap, their one secret weakness (or so he thinks) and hammering them into unconsciousness, but not death.

Bonus points if they can convince you to attack them with pickles.

[MeeposFire]

Begin the day in somewhere relatively inescapable for your character and burn through Frenzy. You can now no longer accidentally trigger Frenzy when damaged, and you never have to concern yourself with hurting another player. All you need is a little healing and you are fine.

Now, spend the feats you would on Endurance, Steadfast Determination, and Iron Will on those which actually assist your power attack. Frenzy is icing when possible, not the source of damage which power attack is by itself.

This is the solution that offers the most safety. All the others carry varying amounts of risk depending on the situation. For instance if for what ever reason the grease spell does not get set off then your charger will kill 1+ PCs in a round.

[Alleine]

Crystal Mask of Mindarmor in the Magic Item compendium gives you a +4 insight bonus on will saves for 10k. It'll more reliably help you make those saves to stop yourself before you chop everyone into pieces. That plus a cloak of resistance +whatever you can afford or some buffs from a friendly cleric and you'll be passing those saves like no one's business.

[LordBlades]

Iron Heart Surge should be able to end Frenzy as well.

[2xMachina]

There are slight fluff problems with IHS.

But, if you have, say, a Geass on you that you can't attack your friends in Frenzy... The best way you could attack your friends is when you're not in a frenzy, so you need to IHS Frenzy off.

(Geass has no duration, so you can't IHS it away)

[ffone]

1) Have your character buy a sap. Doesn't need to be masterwork or anything, so it should be reasonably cheap.
2) Out of Character, arrange for your fellow players to have their characters regale your character with bizarre stories on how their secret super weakness is the humble Sap.
3) Intentionally, fail your sense motive check for their outlandish lies.
4) Your character now believes that your entire party has a secret weakness against saps.
5) When you run out of enemies, your character will now attack his friends "to the best of his ability". That will of course involve him pulling out the sap, their one secret weakness (or so he thinks) and hammering them into unconsciousness, but not death.

Step 1-4 are unnecessary if your caster can just mindrape you into believing that your friends are weak against saps.

Bonus points if your allies are all Warforged or other immune-to-nonlethal-damage races.

[Combat Reflexes]

Iron Heart Surge should be able to end Frenzy as well.

The OP explicitly stated that Iron Heart Surge doesn't work.

From a roleplaying perspective, I think attacking everyone while Frenzied is part of the charm. Where is the fun in playing a bloodgorging, raging, limb-chopping berserker that has an on/off button? It makes him kinda feel like a robot (''The enemies are no more, I'll shut down our BARBARIAN-7000''). That's not why you went Frenzied Berserker.

If you REALLY want to be controlled by your teammates, there are several spells that your squishy caster buddies could use:
-Calm emotions. The Vow of Peace edition comes without a save!
-Hold person. take advantage of that low Will save.
-Obscuring Mist, or, even better: Solid Fog. You can't attack to the best of your ability if you can't see anyone. Just remember to put earplugs in before going frenzy.
-some sort of flying spell for all characters except you. You can't crit what you can't reach.

[LordBlades]

The OP explicitly stated that Iron Heart Surge doesn't work.

I did not equate 'someone told me it doesn't work' from the OP wit a flat out ' it has been ruled it doesn't work in my group' . I meant to detail why in previous post, but got caught up with work sorry. I beg to disagree with that interpretation for the following reason: If Iron Heart Surge prevents you (RP wise) from 'attacking the nearest creature to the best of her ability', then so would attempting the Will save to end the Frenzy(or any other way to voluntarily end it), wouldn't it?

From a roleplaying perspective, I think attacking everyone while Frenzied is part of the charm. Where is the fun in playing a bloodgorging, raging, limb-chopping berserker that has an on/off button? It makes him kinda feel like a robot (''The enemies are no more, I'll shut down our BARBARIAN-7000''). That's not why you went Frenzied Berserker.

It depends on the group. Some would like it as you described, whereas for others, the possibility of being one-shotted by an ally would take away from the fun of the game.

I for one never had a problem with an FB I've played with. the bad ones were really easy to contain while the good ones didn't really fail will saves, or employed more complicated tricks.

[DeltaEmil]

Aren't normal marbles enough to stop the frenzied berserker? No need for magic wands that can only be used by spellcasters and people with Use Magic Device. Extremely easy way to stop a frenzied berserker "dead". And it looks hilarious and demeaning when a frothing, crazy, warp spasm induced girl falls on her butt every round after round, until she can't frenzy anymore.

[2xMachina]

Regular marbles may break, when stepped on by things that are too big/heavy.

[DeltaEmil]

Then have iron marbles, later adamantine marbles, and for the end force marbles do the job.

[Vangor]

I did not equate 'someone told me it doesn't work' from the OP wit a flat out ' it has been ruled it doesn't work in my group' . I meant to detail why in previous post, but got caught up with work sorry. I beg to disagree with that interpretation for the following reason: If Iron Heart Surge prevents you (RP wise) from 'attacking the nearest creature to the best of her ability', then so would attempting the Will save to end the Frenzy(or any other way to voluntarily end it), wouldn't it?

Except the will save to end is both a free action and an attempt for your character to wrest control. IHS, on the other hand, is a standard action which dismisses a condition, a buff in the eyes of the FB. Now, IHS could be used to remove other conditions, my only issue is with being in multiple ways a poor decision for combat for the FB.

[LordBlades]

Except the will save to end is both a free action and an attempt for your character to wrest control. IHS, on the other hand, is a standard action which dismisses a condition, a buff in the eyes of the FB. Now, IHS could be used to remove other conditions, my only issue is with being in multiple ways a poor decision for combat for the FB.

The will save, is a free action which if successful dismisses a condition, a buff in the eyes of the FB.
Not too different IMHO.

TBH I think much depends of the interpretation of your DM regarding what 'to the best of your ability' means, but the rule should be equal regarding all the ways to willingly end the Frenzy (Will Save, IHS, losing the prerequisites for FB via self-inflicted Str. damage etc.)

[Tyrandar]

My CG FB got lucky with Will Saves (had a pretty high modifier too), had access to action points, and tended to stand next to heavily armored/high HP party members. Just in case.

The CE FB was a bigger challenge. The one session we played, the rogue (me) and blackguard w/ an armor enhancement went Invisible, our pet Cleric cast Sanctuary and the dracolexi who didn't see this coming had her head merrily cleaved from her shoulders.

The best spells and mundane items for locking down your FB have already been mentioned. Just pick what best suits your character, your budget and the party.

[Slipperychicken]

Thanks for the quick replies everyone! [love this site...]

The OP explicitly stated that Iron Heart Surge doesn't work.

To be honest, I'm kind of torn about this. I haven't joined a group yet, and it looks like IHS *would* end the Frenzy if I could use it. I actually read that off of Eladriel's Guide: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105525

Bonus points if they can convince you to attack them with pickles.

Awesome. You just gave me the mental image of a red-faced, screaming barbarian, impotently tossing pickles at a wizard.


Now let's just put a 6 on his intelligence so he never realizes that he can still get his power attack bonus if he wields a pickle two-handed...

Begin the day in somewhere relatively inescapable for your character and burn through Frenzy. You can now no longer accidentally trigger Frenzy when damaged, and you never have to concern yourself with hurting another player. All you need is a little healing and you are fine.

I'm mostly entirely doing FB for the Deathless Frenzy. Those bonuses are dwarfed by the ones I get from Bear Warrior. Thanks for the suggestion though.

But, if you have, say, a Geass on you that you can't attack your friends in Frenzy... The best way you could attack your friends is when you're not in a frenzy, so you need to IHS Frenzy off.
(Geass has no duration, so you can't IHS it away)

I like this. How much is a casting of Geass worth again?

[hewhosaysfish]

I've only seen a FB in play from the outside so correct me if I'm remembering wrong but...

Doesn't Frenzy mean that you can't make checks on non-STR-based skills? Which is why Grease (or marbles) is a killer: because the FB can't make Balance checks.
This could potentially be abusedemployed creatively with Spot and Listen checks. Your allies just need to beat a DC 0 on their Hide/Move Silently.
Or with Sense Motive. Let you Frenzy run its course while you attack the "invisible hobgoblins" around you that your allies keep shouting about.

But this may be a little cheesy. And could be turned against you by every intelligent enemy you face.

[JonRG]

From what I'm reading, a geas would deal 3d6 points of damage to a noncompliant FB who continued to murder his party members. Per day. There's also a sickened effect, but Fort negates so I'm not sure how effective that would be, especially after you get Deathless Frenzy.

Mark of Justice seems like a somewhat better option. While applying the nauseated condition a la Belkar is a bit out of bounds for this spell, 50% chance to do nothing or -4 to attacks/saves/skill checks will go a bit further, I think.

Assuming you found a regular 9th level cleric, the spell would cost 450 gp (source). It's also a paladin spell, so it might be cheaper if you can find one to cast it.

Doesn't Frenzy mean that you can't make checks on non-STR-based skills?

While frenzied, the character cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Intimidate), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration.

So an FB can probably win against Bluff/Hide checks for non-scout/party faces. Marbles are still good.

[Smeggedoff]

One of my friends was in a party containing two Frenzied Berserkers at some point. I believe the method they used was the simple hide check.

Something about Frenzied berserkers not being able to use any mental skills AT ALL while in frenzy. Thus they have no chance to detect someone making a hide check no matter how bad their roll is.

So this makes hide in plain sight really useful so you can just stand still with your hands in front of your eyes while everyone else dives for cover.

edit: Swordsage'd, stupid work, it's like they expect me to answer calls or something

[Person_Man]

Many of the above options will work fine. You might also want to peruse the X to Y thread. Honestly, it's not really not that hard to make the Will Save reliably if you spend a modest amount of gp boosting it.

The bigger issue, as herrhauptmann points out, is the fact that it's nearly impossible to prevent yourself from entering a Frenzy, because the DC is damage based. So it's highly likely that you will burn through your most important resource in the first 1-3ish combats each game day. Obviously that's not a big issue in many games. But it's an issue to be aware of, especially if your DM likes marathon sessions or "beat the clock" rescue the princess scenarios.