Player feels he's being treated unfairly

[Stubbed Tongue]

Eh. Easy mistake to make.

If anything the paladin was the one cheated. He lawfully accepted a duel and had it taken from him by an avatar.

If anything the paladin was the one *who* cheated. He lawfully accepted a duel and had it taken from him by an avatar.

It's extremely easy to insert that "who" in there automatically. I did so at first.

If anything the paladin was the one who was cheated would have made your meaning far more apparent, but that's neither here nor there.

Yes, but....I don't talk like that. LOL.

[Emmerask]

Actions have consequences... casting unhallow in a good gods backyard ranks pretty high on the stupid things you should not do list.
I say you let him go pretty easily and he should not complain that his stupid actions only mildly inconvenienced him.

[Zeborazor]

I would have un-named him.

[Mutant Sheep]

I hope his party didn't get to him so his corpse wasn't looted.

Fixed it for you.

Personally I'd take a big xp penalty from that idiot who runs around casting unhallow at random NPC paladins on a Good aligned plane. But that's just my "dude, you just **** all over that guys birdcage." response.

[Frosty]

This is why Know (Religion) is a skill. I can barely keep track of any deities that aren't within a step of LG, honestly...

Siglyn needs to be a Paladin of Cayden Cailean, but then she'd have 5 wings and only wear blue ribbons as her outfit.

[Darth_Versity]

Just to clarify, he hadn't actually unleashed his undead yet. He was panning too do so once the fight started, which was scheduled for the next day. I had Kord appear while he was beggining the casting of Unhallow.

The funny thing is that he is now telling me its not fair as when he gets up at the start of the next session the Paladin will be waiting and he doesn't stand a chance.

Little does he know that i've had an inevitable that has been hunting the party because of their evil acts kidnap his body to try and lure the others into a trap.

[Killer Angel]

mmm...
While you had all the reasons to smack him down, I can see his feeling of "unfairness".
Ysgard is an infinite plain, structured on 3 infinite layers: even if the plane is the home of various gods, it's unusual that someone will notice everything.
If the house's owner is relaxing in the porch, probably he won't notice the guy in the backyard that pees on his salad. (edit: This is me, trying to imagine the player's mental process)

Even if we take this reasoning for good, something nasty happening to him was to be expected. Maybe a high level cleric could have sensed the desecration, sending (in a matter of few hours) a squad of 8-12 inquiring Valkyries. Let see what the other players think about this.
At the end of the day, the whole Ysgard suddenly would be a dangerous place for all the group.

[JadePhoenix]

You, my friend, are a good DM.
You solved the issue well, the player felt cheated and even though you knew you were right you came here for advice.
Yes, you are right. The scenario makes sense. Your player shouldn't be complaining.
What I'd do, if he is a repeat offender, is make the paladin kill him and sunder some of his magical items. Players only grow careful when they experience loss. Padded sumo... is another edition.

[Viktyr Gehrig]

The funny thing is that he is now telling me its not fair as when he gets up at the start of the next session the Paladin will be waiting and he doesn't stand a chance.

It's not fair that he's going to lose the duel he initiated for no reason, because he isn't going to be allowed to cheat, on a plane in which there are no consequences for losing said duel?

Buy him a pacifier before your next session. If he's still complaining after that, try dipping it in whiskey first.

[killem2]

As a new DM, I would just like to know what is wrong with him wanting to fight the Paladin? (Aside from any story line problems that NEED the npc alive)

[Talya]

Oh god.

A guy going by a forum moniker starting with "Darth" asks what amounts to...

"Perhaps you feel you're being treated unfairly?"


Just don't alter any deals.

[JadePhoenix]

As a new DM, I would just like to know what is wrong with him wanting to fight the Paladin? (Aside from any story line problems that NEED the npc alive)

The problem is mainly his metagaming. He doesn't want the fight -- he wants the XP. Big difference.
Also, he is trying to use evil spells on a champion of good in a plane of good. That's not exactly a problem, that's just a bit dumb.

[Darth_Versity]

Oh god.

A guy going by a forum moniker starting with "Darth" asks what amounts to...

"Perhaps you feel you're being treated unfairly?"


Just don't alter any deals.

OMG, please let me sig this!

[JaronK]

I actually think this was unfair.

Ysgard is a plane that's all about battle. This includes evil people battling there. The rules of the duel did not disallow the use of preparatory spellcasting, nor the use of evil spells. If anything, the Paladin would want a chance to smite an evil guy. Nothing here should have attracted the attention of the god of the realm... is he seriously expected to show up every time an evil spell is cast? That's ridiculous. By comparison, imagine if your players attacked the hells, and when a Paladin in the party tried to cast a good spell Asmoedeus showed up and smote him.

JaronK

[Alefiend]

Oh god.

A guy going by a forum moniker starting with "Darth" asks what amounts to...

"Perhaps you feel you're being treated unfairly?"


Just don't alter any deals.

I think I love you now.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

I actually think this was unfair.

Ysgard is a plane that's all about battle. This includes evil people battling there. The rules of the duel did not disallow the use of preparatory spellcasting, nor the use of evil spells. If anything, the Paladin would want a chance to smite an evil guy. Nothing here should have attracted the attention of the god of the realm... is he seriously expected to show up every time an evil spell is cast? That's ridiculous. By comparison, imagine if your players attacked the hells, and when a Paladin in the party tried to cast a good spell Asmoedeus showed up and smote him.

JaronK

As has been previously discussed, the problem wasn't "the use of preparatory spellcasting" it was the fact that the character tried to unhallow a plane that it, by definition, good. If two strangers decided to duel in your front yard and one decided to "prepare" for the duel by messing with your landscaping in a manner that is specifically offensive to you, I feel like you'd want to rough the guy up a bit too.

[Doug Lampert]

The problem is mainly his metagaming. He doesn't want the fight -- he wants the XP. Big difference.
Also, he is trying to use evil spells on a champion of good in a plane of good. That's not exactly a problem, that's just a bit dumb.

Why would there be ANY XP? Seriously, the duel doesn't advance the plot, remove an obstacle, or even seriously inconvienence the loser.

When there is nothing at stake there is no XP award. You get XP for overcoming challenges, there's no real challenge here.

[Rubik]

I actually think this was unfair.

Ysgard is a plane that's all about battle. This includes evil people battling there. The rules of the duel did not disallow the use of preparatory spellcasting, nor the use of evil spells. If anything, the Paladin would want a chance to smite an evil guy. Nothing here should have attracted the attention of the god of the realm... is he seriously expected to show up every time an evil spell is cast? That's ridiculous. By comparison, imagine if your players attacked the hells, and when a Paladin in the party tried to cast a good spell Asmoedeus showed up and smote him.

JaronK

For the first time ever, I think I'll have to disagree with you, JaronK. If it'd been ANY Evil spell (like Deathwatch? WTH?) then it might not have been quite so bad, but he's literally Desecrating the ground made of Good (and Chaos). This seems like it might just tick The Powers That Be off to the point where they'd come in and execute the perpetrator (if he didn't respawn the next day, I'd imagine something less "severe" would be in order; consider this a heavy-handed warning).

What'd be fun is if he could recall where his soul went after he wakes up. Tortured for a day that feels like decades as a mindless [insert petitioner type here]? Maybe he'll consider changing his tune.

Or maybe he'll become an undead abomination to avoid that fate. Either/or.

[killem2]

The problem is mainly his metagaming. He doesn't want the fight -- he wants the XP. Big difference.
Also, he is trying to use evil spells on a champion of good in a plane of good. That's not exactly a problem, that's just a bit dumb.

I guess I'm confused. If the CR is balanced, how does this different than anyone else xp for completing a dungeon or beating an orc down?

Sure the exp would be more. Unless, the issue is, a necro can with out a sweat destroy a paladin?

[ko_sct]

I guess I'm confused. If the CR is balanced, how does this different than anyone else xp for completing a dungeon or beating an orc down?

Sure the exp would be more. Unless, the issue is, a necro can with out a sweat destroy a paladin?

Well, let's say you need to get a letter from an orc, you can kill him, giving you the xp and the letter. You can also convince him to surrender, giving you the xp and the letter. But if you convince him to surrender and get both the xp and the letter, you cant just give him a weapon and then kill him to get some more xp.

Thats the way this fight seem to be, it's not a challenge and doesn't make you progress.

Now, you could easely argue that a fight should provide xp, even if it does not advance the story, simply because you take a risk or expand ressources. But in this case, there's no risk and no advancement AND it give a player more xp than the rest of the group (something some DMs dislike)

Anyway, thats the way I see it.


Also, personnaly I do think that divine intervention is probably a bit unfair, but I guess it does depend on the lvl of the pcs.

[Frosty]

This is why I don't keep track of exp. I just tell my players when they level. Luckily in pathfinder crafting doesn't take exp.

[Emmerask]

I actually think this was unfair.

Ysgard is a plane that's all about battle. This includes evil people battling there. The rules of the duel did not disallow the use of preparatory spellcasting, nor the use of evil spells. If anything, the Paladin would want a chance to smite an evil guy. Nothing here should have attracted the attention of the god of the realm... is he seriously expected to show up every time an evil spell is cast? That's ridiculous. By comparison, imagine if your players attacked the hells, and when a Paladin in the party tried to cast a good spell Asmoedeus showed up and smote him.

JaronK

Try to hallow hell and watch what happens
The problem is not the [evil] spell as others have pointed out, its very specifically the unhallow which would be akin to going into your neighbors garden, taking a crap there and afterwards building a glass showcase around it so that it stays as permanently as possible...
I don´t think the neighbors will be very happy about that stunt

[Zale]

Still, He kinda dropped a God on the guy.

A horde of pissed celestials would have been sufficient.

A deity seems.. excessive. Like using a nuke to clean your dirty toilet.

But eh. No permanent harm done. He could be a hamster now.


Ohh a Necromantic hamster would be adorable.

[JaronK]

For the first time ever, I think I'll have to disagree with you, JaronK. If it'd been ANY Evil spell (like Deathwatch? WTH?) then it might not have been quite so bad, but he's literally Desecrating the ground made of Good (and Chaos).

See, I'd believe that if this were in the 7 heavens or something. But this is Ysgard, plane of battle. It feels to me like this is such a small thing that the gods (well, the primary one anyway) wouldn't really consider this important... at most I'd expect any deity who notices to see that area as a good target for more forces of evil and good to battle over. It's not like it's a permanent effect (the effects seem to last for a year and a day, though that's not perfectly clear... possibly only the additional spell effect lasts a year and a day).

Remember also the size involved here. This place is infinite in size, and we're putting a 40' emanation in there. What this guy did is not equivalent to taking a dump in someone's lawn. It's like an ant pooping somewhere in your lawn... only proportionally, it's even smaller than that. Really not noticeable on the god scale.

So, I could see a local warlord who likes using Turn Undead getting annoyed, but that's only if he happened to spot you.

JaronK

[Snowbluff]

Nope. When you're on the plane of a god of battle I would avoid defiling it. And an Avatar showing up, which I believe wander around the plane, is perfectly acceptable.

Yes, the plane of a god of battle where a person was making battle preparations and then killed him for no reason since he would come back to life.

[Alabenson]

See, I'd believe that if this were in the 7 heavens or something. But this is Ysgard, plane of battle. It feels to me like this is such a small thing that the gods (well, the primary one anyway) wouldn't really consider this important... at most I'd expect any deity who notices to see that area as a good target for more forces of evil and good to battle over. It's not like it's a permanent effect (the effects seem to last for a year and a day, though that's not perfectly clear... possibly only the additional spell effect lasts a year and a day).

Remember also the size involved here. This place is infinite in size, and we're putting a 40' emanation in there. What this guy did is not equivalent to taking a dump in someone's lawn. It's like an ant pooping somewhere in your lawn... only proportionally, it's even smaller than that. Really not noticeable on the god scale.

So, I could see a local warlord who likes using Turn Undead getting annoyed, but that's only if he happened to spot you.

JaronK

The issue isn't just that the player cast unhallow, though, its that the player cast unhallow for the express purpose of cheating in a duel, an act which would be extremely offensive to the dogma of the resident Good-aligned deity. This is roughly analagous to going onto the property of a celebrity who is ardently anti-animal cruelty and tearing up a small part of their lawn to build a dog fighting ring. In the long-run, its less that you're tearing up their lawn than why you're tearing up their lawn.

[The_Jackal]

My question is why should a paladin be so thick as to accept a duel from someone he knows to be evil (detect evil at will, guys). Just because he's Lawful Good doesn't mean he has to behave like the slow kid at the cafeteria.

[Snowbluff]

The issue isn't just that the player cast unhallow, though, its that the player cast unhallow for the express purpose of cheating in a duel, an act which would be extremely offensive to the dogma of the resident Good-aligned deity. This is roughly analagous to going onto the property of a celebrity who is ardently anti-animal cruelty and tearing up a small part of their lawn to build a dog fighting ring. In the long-run, its less that you're tearing up their lawn than why you're tearing up their lawn.

Lol. Just lol. Cheating at at duel is decidedly chaotic, but no one said this was cheating and Kord is not lawful.

[NichG]

Generally when I run Ysgard the resurrection effect has a rider from the 2ed era that would deal with this particular behavior on its own. That is basically, you're resurrected if you die heroically. I'd follow up the unhallow with 'that night you have a strange dream...' and basically let the PC know that sure, he can go ahead with the duel or not as he likes, but the plane has withdrawn its boon from him for this fight due to his cowardly behavior.

I think it'd also be reasonable to have the unhallow simply fail or require a fairly high CL check given the location and scale.

The 'slap on the wrist execution' really amounts to less of a punishment but delivered more heavyhandedly. As such I don't think its unfair, but I do think its not the ideal combination of factors. No real consequence + big power show means the PC will read it as 'the DM is using big powerful NPCs to take away my fun' rather than 'well, I just did something dumb and now I've got to figure out how to survive the consequences'.

Edit: Also, w.r.t. the 'Kord wouldn't notice' thing, 3.5ed gods have ridiculous information capabilities. Portfolio sense for example (since this is surrounding a duel) would be a reasonable way for him to notice. Dispatching disciplinary action could easily be done with one of his dozens of free actions each round.

Ironically I do give bonus xp for declared duels, but the extra xp is forfeited in the case of interference (i.e. allies messing with the duel, breaking the terms, etc). It also needs to be a 'meaningful' duel, but if this was a sort of 'If you're going to judge me, I want trial by combat!' thing to an NPC who was being a jerk that'd be meaningful enough to qualify.

[Killer Angel]

Edit: Also, w.r.t. the 'Kord wouldn't notice' thing, 3.5ed gods have ridiculous information capabilities.

Exceptions exist... and sometimes even gods can be busy.