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    Default Did Lord Shojo let Azure City fall?

    In summary, yes. Lord Shojo was a leading factor in Azure City's loss to the forces of evil.

    Azure City lost that big battle for a lot of reasons. The watchtowers failed their purpose, the catapults were destroyed by Julio, the walls were breached by elementals, the high leveled paladins were tied up defending a throne, and there also happened to be some hobgoblins and an epic lich riding a dragon.

    But the battle could have been won. Resources that could have turned the tide were lost forever, and that is entirely Lord Shojo's fault for being dead.

    No, it's not his fault for dying. Miko absolutely killed him dead, and while he could have maybe parlayed with Roy with the door closed, we can't blame Shojo for not surviving Miko. But then the clerics were called. Diamonds were produced and the spell was cast. And Lord Shojo was not resurrected. Lord Shojo was close to dying a real death anyways. But dying minutes after hearing that his city was going to be attacked, he had a moral responsibility to return to his city and oversee its preparations for war. And he did not.

    Hinjo was left in charge, distrusted by the nobles and a good portion of the people. How much time was wasted telling the population that its beloved leader had been killed for good under circumstances they could not know? How much time was spent making the nobles sit and listen to Hinjo? Far too much, when an army of 30,000 hobgoblins is 24 hours away.

    Then the nobles sailed away. Shojo probably knew they would. He had to fake senility in order to avoid being assassinated. How would Hinjo get them to obey him in just a day's time, under mysterious circumstances? As these nobles sailed away, they took hundreds, maybe a few thousand, personal guards and servants, and then some civilians loyal to them. Civilians that might have been encouraged to pick up a sword if their noble was staying. These extra men would have certainly helped. And then at least a few of these nobles would probably have high level wizards to advise them. Remember V's contribution to the battle? V was almost the only reason the breach was held, at least until the entire army charged it. What if there were 3 Vs on the battlefield? Five? Ten? V was the only decently leveled spellcaster in the battle besides Sangwan that we saw. A bundle more would have turned the tide.

    And then these nobles had armies of ninjas at their disposal. What if these ninjas were used to take out the leaders of the hobgoblins? Redcloak wouldn't have ordered the army to storm the breach with a sword in his back. The general could have been taken out too, leaving the hobgoblins leaderless.

    These nobles and their valuable resources were lost because Shojo wasn't there to convince them to stay. Some of them at the very least would have stayed if they had a leader they had confidence in, instead of a paladin that gained power for reasons he couldn't explain. The troops themselves point this out.

    Of course, there is one event that would have probably occurred with or without Shojo's presence. Xykon would have still killed Roy, and he would have probably still made it to the throne room. There, the same fight would occur. And then Lord Shojo would probably be in some kind of safe room with paladins defending him. In the battle of the throne room, every last paladin counted. With one or two less, Redcloak would have helped Xykon take on Soon, and they might not have been defeated by him. However, if there were enough noble-sponsored wizards on the field, Xykon might have been held up by some and burned some of his more powerful spells, making him more likely to be defeated before Redcloak arrives, and heck, Redcloak might not even had made it to the room if he was stopped by the ninja, meaning he wouldn't have been there to turn the ghost martyrs and help Xykon.

    Lord Shojo's cowardice was a leading factor in the fall of Azure City. Because he was scared of Hinjo's reaction, and because he was, according to Belkar, having a good time in the afterlife, his beloved city fell. Lord Shojo's refusal to return lost time to prepare, valuable resources and men the nobles could have provided, and drained troop moral. The troops were fighting for a paladin they didn't entirely trust, especially when they couldn't know how he gained power over them. Lord Shojo's final words (besides that snark to Miko) were "Everything I did, I did for my people." No, not everyone. One thing he did helped to cause the deaths of ten thousand soldiers and helped to cause the survivors to sail on a fleet in exile for almost a year. Lord Shojo hid from his duties as ruler, and possibly because of it, his city was destroyed.

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    Default Re: Did Lord Shojo let Azure City fall?

    I think you're being a little overly criitcal of lord Shojo. Also, one thing you're forgetting. He would have been arrested. He would not have been able to do anything since he would have been in jail and Hinjo would now be the emperor. They still wouldn't have trusted Hinjo Even if Shojo gave Hinjo his own reccomendation.

    You also can't really blame him for not wanting to come back. He was goign to die in a few years easy and He probably wouldn't have done much good in that time. His nephew would have exposed him and then he'd be rotting in a jail cell. (Probably a nice one since he is Hinjo's uncle and he did have good intentions but still.)
    Last edited by Mystic Muse; 2009-10-04 at 01:06 AM.

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    Default Re: Did Lord Shojo let Azure City fall?

    Shojo hardly had any time to prepare for the attack, Miko came in and told him then killed him less than a minute later. You cannot blame him for causing something he did not know about.
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    Default Re: Did Lord Shojo let Azure City fall?

    Quote Originally Posted by Katana_Geldar View Post
    Shojo hardly had any time to prepare for the attack, Miko came in and told him then killed him less than a minute later. You cannot blame him for causing something he did not know about.
    The attack wasn't something Shojo didn't know about. I'd have to partly agree with the OP. Yes, Shojo may have been arrested, but there was also the possibility that Hinjo would decide to wait until the attack was over.

    No matter how small that chance would be, it would have been better to let himself be ressed and give it a shot instead of staying dead because he just didn't trust Hinjo to listen to him.

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    Default Re: Did Lord Shojo let Azure City fall?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyuubi View Post
    Also, one thing you're forgetting. He would have been arrested. He would not have been able to do anything since he would have been in jail and Hinjo would now be the emperor.
    Hinjo arresting Shojo would have been a crucial test for his Paladinhood. On the one hand, his uncle clearly broke the law and should probably go to jail according to a standard 'Lawful' outlook. On the other hand, to do so when there are 30,000 Hobgoblins led by an epic Lich Sorcerer about to storm the city and Shojo is the glue keeping it all together is downright irresponsible.

    Would he see the city sacked for the sake of the letter of the law, or would he do the sane, responsible thing and only bring charges when the battle is over? Shojo should have accepted his resurrection, and Hinjo should have set the matter of his past actions aside until the victory had been won.
    Last edited by Turkish Delight; 2009-10-04 at 02:00 AM.

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    Default Re: Did Lord Shojo let Azure City fall?

    The Battle for Azure City was not close at all. -- Xykon won by a landslide.
    Here's the proof, in terms of troops.

    Having 'one more paladin' guarding the gate would not have changed anything either. Xykon epically out classed all the living paladins very easily.

    Even if the Azurites had another thousand ninjas and whatever-else (Assuming he could convince the aristrocrats, which I doubt "Mr. Scruffy needs your ninjas!" would work...); Xykon still would have ended up victorious. He had too many too strong troops in terms of his army, and he had all the highest level creatures on his side of the playing field (Himself, Redcloak, MitD). They weren't about to lose.



    The only real thing Shojo could do that would have impacted the plot would have been him getting captured by Xykon, similarly to how O'Chul was captured. The only difference being, Shojo isn't comparable to Chuck Noris; and Shojo wasn't bound by the oath so he actually may have information on the other gates..

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    Default Re: Did Lord Shojo let Azure City fall?

    Getting raised wouldn't have changed anything. If he was faking senility to avoid being assassinated, the nobles wouldn't listen to him anyways.

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    Default Re: Did Lord Shojo let Azure City fall?

    Quote Originally Posted by Turkish Delight View Post
    Hinjo arresting Shojo would have been a crucial test for his Paladinhood. On the one hand, his uncle clearly broke the law and should probably go to jail according to a standard 'Lawful' outlook. On the other hand, to do so when there are 30,000 Hobgoblins led by an epic Lich Sorcerer about to storm the city and Shojo is the glue keeping it all together is downright irresponsible.

    Would he see the city sacked for the sake of the letter of the law, or would he do the sane, responsible thing and only bring charges when the battle is over? Shojo should have accepted his resurrection, and Hinjo should have set the matter of his past actions aside until the victory had been won.
    At the same time though, I'm curious as to what Shojo could have possibly done anyways, had he been brought back. Would it have been a bit of a moral boost for the soldiers? Yeah, perhaps it coulda been. But the fact of the matter is that the only reason he had any control over the populace was by faking senility. The bickering nobles thought they had true power and control anyways, and so did their loyal subjects, or at least those amongst them who were privy to said information. What we have, then, are a few possibilities, assuming that Shojo is resurrected.

    1.) Shojo breaks character. He reveals himself as the brilliant, manipulative, wise, just ruler who might not exactly follow Lawful Good principles, but follows Good ones nonetheless. What sort of role does he play? He cannot possibly command the battle, having no martial class to speak of, or even levels in anything other than commoner classes. His control over the nobles slips completely as they realize he's been playing them the fool, and might even go so far as to temporarily band together for the sake of taking out their greatest obstacle. They certainly won't have any hand in participating in the plans of a liar and a cheat. The nobles would LOVE to spread this information throughout the populace, sowing mistrust in the overall government and winning over soldiers, commoners.. hell, maybe even some of the paladins. In either case, before we get to all that, Hinjo still sees this as a terrible enough offense to jail him, giving the Nobles all the ammunition they need anyways and even possibly casting Hinjo as a usurper to the throne, a tactic they'd already utilized, to a much greater effect.

    Either way, I don't see Shojo having any authority. His lifespan would be increased by a few years, if he's not quickly and efficiently killed by any of their ninjas anyways.

    2.) Shojo returns and once more plays senile. He still lacks any authority or commanding presence over the people. The nobles are still unwilling to submit to the will of a senile fool, one they have tolerated only so far as they have needed to. He still cannot command the Guard, having to play senile in order to even remain breathing. More soldiers are actually cut off from the main forces to actually help protect Shojo, weakening forces (perhaps by a less-than-marginal amount, but their best and brightest would be following him anyways.) Hinjo, the real battle commander, wouldn't listen to him anyway, especially if he's threatened to throw Shojo in jail regardless of whether or not Shojo tries to convince him to play senile otherwise.

    Shojo is dead, yes... and this provides the people with Hinjo, a leader who actually has many qualities that Shojo lacks. Hinjo is a military strategist and skilled warrior. He can better martial the defenses of the City, and afterwards is better able to stand the seafaring life until they can find something to do. He can assist the Order and work with them without needing to throw on the senility ploy again. The Sapphire Guard and the general populace are absolutely under his rule and follow his whim, disregarding Kubota and the other nobles along with their devoted lackeys. Once the nobles are reigned in, or even if they aren't, the Azurites have a just, honest, brilliant, and compassionate leader to follow who knows how to defend them from any sort of attack an enemy would martial, one who can keep the people together. If Shojo was still around at that point, the Nobles would have much more support, and any one of them would have much greater incentive of grabbing the throne while the going was good, starting a multi-sided civil war that would end the Azurites, or at least diminish them to the point of being unable to assist the Order or continue as a civilization.

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    Default Re: Did Lord Shojo let Azure City fall?

    Quote Originally Posted by CrazySopher View Post
    At the same time though, I'm curious as to what Shojo could have possibly done anyways, had he been brought back. Would it have been a bit of a moral boost for the soldiers? Yeah, perhaps it coulda been.
    No 'could've been' about it. He was the monarch of Azure City for 40 years. After that long a time, you become more than just a ruler, you become almost an institution. Witness Queen Victoria in Britain during the late 19th century.

    Now, with a massive army just outside their gates, not only do they have to announce that Shojo is dead, but they have to announce that they can't reveal the circumstances behind his death. The result is predictable: look at how many Azurites who seem to immediately assume Hinjo was responsible and they are now being led by a usurper. Such news hits morale and it hits hard at the absolute worst possible moment.

    1.) Shojo breaks character. He reveals himself as the brilliant, manipulative, wise, just ruler who might not exactly follow Lawful Good principles, but follows Good ones nonetheless. What sort of role does he play?
    Symbolic. He would always be just a symbol, given his NPC class and his obvious emphasis on scheming over military strategy. Regardless of Shojo's life or death, Hinjo would always necessarily be in charge of the defense of the city, and I'm sure Shojo himself would be perfectly happy to be the one to announce this, giving him the legitimacy of the perceived rightful ruler's blessing rather than the perceived implication that Hinjo himself was responsible for Shojo's death. If he were to announce his 'act', though, it would probably be the wrong choice; as you say, he'd likely lose most of the nobles when they figure out how they'd been duped.

    This leads to him continuing his senile charade, which puts the noble class in a bit more of a bind. In the case of Shojo's death, they have a perfect 'out' for not participating in the battle; they can claim they don't trust Hinjo under the shady circumstances of Shojo's death and use that as an excuse to not participate. What is the excuse with Shojo in power? They can withdraw their troops, but it will appear more blatantly than ever like the craven and self-serving act it is. Unlike Hinjo, Shojo seems manipulative and shrewd enough that even through his senile act he would be able to play this card against them masterfully.

    Perhaps the Kubota-style nobles, the absolutely and completely selfish who have no interest in anything save seizing power, would still not participate. But we mustn't assume that all the nobles are of a similar mindset, and Shojo living means there is no longer any trace of controversy over the rulership of the city. Very likely, then, if not all the nobles, certainly more of them would have actively participated in the city's defense.

    Would all of this have turned the tide and won the battle for Azure City, setting aside the plot-induced inevitablity of it's defeat? Probably not. It would have certainly made for tougher resistance on Azure City's part, however, and that should have been obvious even at the time.

    Shojo failed in his duty to the city when he didn't come back. Hinjo would have failed in his duty to the city if he had carried on with his orders to arrest Shojo if Shojo had come back.

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    Default Re: Did Lord Shojo let Azure City fall?

    Quote Originally Posted by Turkish Delight View Post
    Would he see the city sacked for the sake of the letter of the law, or would he do the sane, responsible thing and only bring charges when the battle is over?
    On the evidence we've seen, Hinjo would quite clearly have arrested his uncle and be damned to the consequences. Just look at his reaction in strip #406, which I point out was AFTER he knew there was a massive hobgoblin army on the way--he was still determined to arrest his uncle and let the magistrate sort it out.

    Further evidence: he didn't remove the Mark of Justice from Belkar prior to the battle, despite the fact that effectively neutered one of his more powerful allies. It took several people to persuade him that yes, now was the time to leave the city and look after his people rather than dying in a pointless onslaught against twenty thousand hobgoblins. Even after he'd been persuaded of that, he still tried to solo attack Redcloak, despite the fact that the goblin was standing on a dock surrounded by troops and undead.

    Fact is, Hinjo was not a good leader at the time of the Battle of Azure City, and I don't think the approaching hobgoblin army would have changed his adherence to the law one iota.

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    Default Re: Did Lord Shojo let Azure City fall?

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Fact is, Hinjo was not a good leader at the time of the Battle of Azure City, and I don't think the approaching hobgoblin army would have changed his adherence to the law one iota.
    If we see further character development of Hinjo, I'd wager it will be in this vein: Hinjo increasingly realizing that his uncle was right and maybe, just maybe, being an effective ruler of his people means having to occasionally play dirty, lie and bend the rules.

    One cannot rule guiltlessly. Politics is a dirty business and not really cut out for 100% Pure-all-the-time Paladins.

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    Default Re: Did Lord Shojo let Azure City fall?

    I can't see any plausable way for Shojo to have had any significant sway in the outcome of the battle. Sapphire City and the OOTS were simply vastly outmatched.

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    Default Re: Did Lord Shojo let Azure City fall?

    Anything that Shojo could have done for Azure City would have been worth nothing.

    Miko still would have stopped Soon defeating Xykon, Xykon could probably take out most of the Azure City army by himself after the gate has been destroyed, thus rendering any advantage given by having a trusted monarch on the throne is meaningless. And if you give the argument that Xykon didn't have that many high level spells, he can always rest a while and recover them. 30,000 hobgoblins won't be easily killed :)

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    Default Re: Did Lord Shojo let Azure City fall?

    I don't think Shojo considered all this when he got the chance of being rezzed. It was a normal day, then suddenly happened all that happened... then he find himself in the upper planes being judged by a deva (I don't think he was already in the afterlife, judgment of a whole life takes time). Then somebody offered to resurrect him.
    He probably just tought "nahh, Hinjo would put me in jail, and I'm going to die of old age soon anyway. Not worth it" and failed to consider the consequences.
    Anyway, given that Hinjo didin't remove the mark of justice from Belkar, I doubt he would have kept Shojo in charge of the battle.
    He would have had Shojo arrested, and then he would have to explain the nobles and population why the ruler was imprisoned on secret charges (remember, the existance of the sapphire guard, much less the gate, is a secret). Not a big improvement.
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    Default Re: Did Lord Shojo let Azure City fall?

    azure city was never winnable from the start. had azure city had every man on the walls, twice as strong walls, and every resource it could possible hope to have in a war other then an epic level group of mercenaries, it still would of lost. xykon would of just ended it with more hob goblin zombies and less hob goblins. if the fragmented order could kill several hundred members of xykon's army, as hinjo stated, then xykon and RC could kill several THOUSAND members of the resistance. as soon as xykon decided to enter the field of battle himself, azure city was lost. ironically, with hinjo in charge, more azurites survived because the noble left with them early and more warriors were ready to desert, escaping with their lives, if not their pride
    Last edited by theinsulabot; 2009-10-04 at 08:00 AM.
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    Default Re: Did Lord Shojo let Azure City fall?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tijne View Post
    Having 'one more paladin' guarding the gate would not have changed anything either. Xykon epically out classed all the living paladins very easily.
    I was talking about the effects of the ghost paladins, not the living ones. The last two or three paladins stopped Redcloak from teaming with Xykon to take out Soon.

    But that wasn't the point of that paragraph. My point was that with even just a little bit of resistance, Redcloack would not have made it to the throne room in time to save Xykon. Redcloak got there just in time to stop him from being destroyed, and Xykon would not have had defeated the ghost martyrs without Redcloak there to turn them.

    Now, Hinjo was going to arrest Shojo, probably. I did remember that wrong, I thought Hinjo said they would sort it out after the battle. But he did say that it would be up to the magistrate. Any magistrate would see the need for a ruler during the conflict over some laws being upheld.

    Shojo didn't have much time to think this over, but he had at least ten minutes to think about it and say, "forget my people, I'm going to the afterlife." He might have even had twenty minutes if the second panel of 410 is a second casting of Resurrection, not just the cleric repeating one sentence.

    Next, I come to the issue of the hobgoblins. Yes, there were a lot. But how have hobgoblins been characterized in the comic? Certainly stronly disciplined, maybe too much, even. They seem to follow a very strict ranking system. If Redcloak was removed from the battle (either by being killed/routed by ninjas) and the general was removed from the picture, who would be next in line? Eventually these leaders could be thinned to someone willing to sound the retreat, or pull back for the night. If ninjas could hide behind Hinjo for four hours then they could sneak accross a battlefield and take out a hobgoblin general.

    And like Turkish Delight said, the nobles wouldn't retreat. They're trying to become rulers of these people. They're smart enough to know that a blatant act of cowardice would seriously dampen their chances. I don't think even Kubota would retreat. He was pretty proud of being 'beloved by the people.'

    And again, I'd like to point out V's contribution to the battle. Notice the bodies? One wizard and some low level fighters did that. In the second link you can see Belkar's pile of corpses, which is dwarfed by those at the breach, a good distance away. If there were ten wizards manning that breach, and they had access to some decent spells, the and then a bunch of area affect spells would seriously cramp the Hobgoblin assualt, and assuming each one hits, say ten, the wizards would have almost a thousand hobgoblins taken out by the time the goblins start getting in melee range. A different hobgoblin running the army would see the losses incurred, and he might just pull the army back to stop such casualties. As the Azurite General said, "They wouldn't continure an attack that was meeting with such failure."
    Last edited by DBJack; 2009-10-04 at 01:36 PM.

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    Default Re: Did Lord Shojo let Azure City fall?

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    On the evidence we've seen, Hinjo would quite clearly have arrested his uncle and be damned to the consequences. Just look at his reaction in strip #406, which I point out was AFTER he knew there was a massive hobgoblin army on the way--he was still determined to arrest his uncle and let the magistrate sort it out.
    "it will be up to the magistrates to decide what happens next" can be interpreted as:

    "it will be up to the magistrates to decide what crimes Shojo may have committed, and if there is enough evidence of them to press charges, and suspend Shojo's authority"

    Even after Miko alleges that Shojo committed treason, Hinjos words are not "I will place Shojo under arrest" but:

    "Look, we have the magistrates place Shojo under arrest"

    Once Roy convinced Hinjo that Shojo did not, in fact, commit treason, and that Shojo had not done real harm (Which Hinjo's decision not to press any charges against Roy, but recruit him as his bodyguard, suggests) then it is possible that Hinjo might have decided to suspend the charges.

    Not all that likely, but possible.

    Belkar does think the Sapphire Guard would have placed Shojo under arrest the moment Hinjo resurrected him if he had succeeded, though.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2009-10-04 at 02:07 PM.
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    Default Re: Did Lord Shojo let Azure City fall?

    "Is Shojo's death morally justified?"

    Two words for you. "Chaotic Good"

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    Default Re: Did Lord Shojo let Azure City fall?

    Quote Originally Posted by DBJack View Post
    No, it's not his fault for dying. Miko absolutely killed him dead, and while he could have maybe parlayed with Roy with the door closed, we can't blame Shojo for not surviving Miko. But then the clerics were called. Diamonds were produced and the spell was cast. And Lord Shojo was not resurrected. Lord Shojo was close to dying a real death anyways. But dying minutes after hearing that his city was going to be attacked, he had a moral responsibility to return to his city and oversee its preparations for war. And he did not.
    You seem to presume that duty and obligation continue after death. The examples we have of that being the case in OotS's alignment/morality system are very specific, very limited, and driven by magical oaths taken by lawful characters.
    Last edited by Ozymandias9; 2009-10-04 at 02:33 PM.
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    Default Re: Did Lord Shojo let Azure City fall?

    And even then, those characters often have a view that some obligations end:

    Eugene: "Hey- it said "till death do us part.""
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    Default Re: Did Lord Shojo let Azure City fall?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozymandias9 View Post
    You seem to presume that duty and obligation continue after death. The examples we have of that being the case in OotS's alignment/morality system are very specific, very limited, and driven by magical oaths taken by lawful characters.
    Those that didn't follow their duties were small-timers, people living their lives as they saw fit. This is the leader of a city of hundreds of thousands of people. He was running this city for much of his life, 47 years to be exact. This is a world where death is something you can be done with in the morning. If his people had known that he was going to wimp out on them when he had the chance to come back and help them, he would have been dethroned quickly. They want him running them to protect them at all times, not when he sees fit. Alive, or dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mugen Nightgale View Post
    "Is Shojo's death morally justified?"

    Two words for you. "Chaotic Good"
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    Default Re: Did Lord Shojo let Azure City fall?

    DBJack makes a good case. A fake-senile Shojo could quite possibly have kept a good many of the nobles in the city, and their forces might have made the crucial difference in the battle. It was a close-run thing, and we specifically saw several points where a couple of ninjas, or just slightly better morale, could have made a difference. And we know Shojo's death played a major part in setting that morale so low.

    But it's also possible that his coming back wouldn't have had that effect. Hinjo might have arrested him then and there, with very much the same net effect as if he were just killed. His trial, if the city survived long enough, might have opened all sorts of cans-of-worms that would make the city tear itself apart anyway. Or the news that Shojo had been murdered in the first place by one of his own trusted paladins, even if he had come back, might have been enough to destroy what authority he had over the nobles. We really can't know - and if it comes to guessing, Shojo is better placed to make that judgment call than any of us.

    And everything Belkar says of Shojo is true. He had nothing to look forward to, coming back. My guess is, ambling peacefully into Arborea, he realises he's clung on to power far too long and it's past time to hand over to Hinjo anyway. He can't really foresee all the consequences of his death, any more than we can accurately know what would have happened if he had been raised. To that, add very considerable disincentives in the form of arrest and imprisonment facing him on his return. I find it hard to blame him.

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    Default Re: Did Lord Shojo let Azure City fall?

    Ysgard is another possible candidate, if you see Shojo as much more Chaotic, than he is Good.

    Home of trickster deity Olidammara (CN with mild Good tendencies), other deities might reside there using the OoTS pantheons.

    Thor, Odin, etc would fit quite well, since Ysgard is basically close to being a D&D version of Asgard.

    And I think way back when every pantheon existed on the Great Wheel (Olympus was on Arborea) Asgard was where Ysgard is now.

    The Elven deities might be expected to reside in Arborea in OoTS, as they do in the standard D&D cosmologies.
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    Default Re: Did Lord Shojo let Azure City fall?

    Quote Originally Posted by DBJack View Post
    Those that didn't follow their duties were small-timers, people living their lives as they saw fit. This is the leader of a city of hundreds of thousands of people. He was running this city for much of his life, 47 years to be exact. This is a world where death is something you can be done with in the morning. If his people had known that he was going to wimp out on them when he had the chance to come back and help them, he would have been dethroned quickly. They want him running them to protect them at all times, not when he sees fit. Alive, or dead.
    So, are you ever going to tell us exactly how Shojo would be able to convince the nobles to help him and change the tide of the battle?

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    Default Re: Did Lord Shojo let Azure City fall?

    You can't lead from jail.
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    Default Re: Did Lord Shojo let Azure City fall?

    Nobles wouldve always retreated...cos they are nobles thats what they do, they dont stand and fight when someone else can do it fore them, and they dont get their loyal samurai or their loyal ninjas to fight when theirs an army coming.
    If Shojo had been in charge its even possible that the nobles wouldve tried reasoning with Xykon...how would THAT turn out?
    And its more likely that warrior troops would be bolstered morally by their leader running around smiting evil whilst riding his massive wolf that has silver teeth, than the crazy old guy in the castle

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    Default Re: Did Lord Shojo let Azure City fall?

    aniway,Xykon and Redcloak were pretty much dead.If Miko had not destroyed the gate Soon's Ghost would have killed both and said someone how to destroy the philactery

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    Default Re: Did Lord Shojo let Azure City fall?

    Quote Originally Posted by ericgrau View Post
    You can't lead from jail.
    Essentially the point. Everything we know says that Shojo would have gone straight to jail after being raised. And from jail he would have caused loads of trouble merely by existing. As far as the political situation was concerned, Miko may have done the city a favor by dicing Shojo and avoiding any fight over who should be ruling.

    Shojo's big mistake was in not realizing that Azure City was a possible target. By the time he was being raised, everything was already way messed up.

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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Did Lord Shojo let Azure City fall?

    For the record, Shojo was not the determining factor in victory or defeat. It all came down to the battle in the throne room. If Soon had finished off Xykon and Redcloak, Azure city wins, even with the massive numerical advantage of the Hobgoblins; without effective, high-level leadership, even if the city had fallen that day, retaking it wouldn't have been all that difficulty, and under such circumstances the Hobgoblins might have even retreated on their own.

    If Xykon and Redcloak are in any shape to effect the battle, the battle is lost, Shojo or no. Epic level sorcerers can screw a battle royally for whichever side the sorcerer happens to be fighting against and Shojo was in no position to do anything to solve that particular problem.

    So no, Shojo didn't lose the battle for Azure City by not coming back. Azure City would have been stronger with his continued presence, with morale more secure and with more nobles likely to participate, but Shojo or no Azure City was pretty royally screwed, with a victory by Soon it's only real hope. As such, Miko ultimately lost the battle for Azure City more than anyone.

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    Default Re: Did Lord Shojo let Azure City fall?

    Remember that Hinjo's "look, we have the magistrates place him under arrest" was in response to Miko's accusation of treason.

    If Hinjo chooses to interpret the gods' rather spectacular reaction as proof that the accusation was incorrect,

    (there are people who suggest that the only reason Miko Fell for killing Shojo was that she was incorrect in her accusation)

    then Shojo might not have gone to jail immediately after being ressurrected.

    All that said, I would be surprised if ressurecting him had made things any better.
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