Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVIII: "Fortune favours the careless!"

[Cheesegear]

You're losing about 3-4 screamers each turn

No. No you aren't. If the Screamer Council loses three models in one turn, that's considered a really bad turn. It's probably the first turn. A Screamer Council is passing 96% of all of it's saves on roughly 70% of turns. Then, recall that Screamers have two Wounds each. You need to deal two wounds with anything less than S8 before you even remove one model.

If your opponent is really unlucky, and, if you're really lucky you can pull it off. Otherwise it's a serious problem. People wouldn't run it if it wasn't near-guarenteed to work.

EDIT: Did the math. You need 152 Lasgun shots to deal one Wound. Or 300+ Lasguns to remove one model.
76 Boltgun or Pulse Rifle shots, double that to remove a model.
46 BS4 S8+ shots to remove a model.

Seriously. 2++ Re-Rollable. With 2 Wounds each. Get behind it.

EDIT 2, Electric Boogaloo: I know it's Math-Hammer and unreliable. But those numbers are still really crazy.

Also, page 49. Next Thread Titles?

[shadow_archmagi]

So I put together a little 500 point test-army:

Shadowsun as commander, with both her special drones. Two six-man squads of fire warriors (four rifles, two carbines. Pinning might help, right?). One six-man squad of pathfinders. (I like the number six, okay?). A two-man squad of crisis suits, with twin-linked flamers.

Not too bad for a first try, I think? We'll find out later tonight if I can get ahold of anyone.

[Jormengand]

EDIT: Did the math. You need 152 Lasgun shots to deal one Wound. Or 300+ Lasguns to remove one model.

Oh, they're multi-wound models? Did not know, not knowing much about daemons. Oh jeez, then...

Okay, fair point. Yeah, turn all those pulsers Kairos-wards.

with heavy flamers.

You quite sure about that?

[Squark]

So I put together a little 500 point test-army:

Shadowsun as commander, with both her special drones. Two six-man squads of fire warriors (four rifles, two carbines. Pinning might help, right?). One six-man squad of pathfinders. (I like the number six, okay?). A two-man squad of crisis suits, with heavy flamers.

Not too bad for a first try, I think? We'll find out later tonight if I can get ahold of anyone.

Stick to rifles. Carbines aren't terribly great. Also, you don't have enough firepower to use six markerlights (that is what you're taking on the pathfinders, right?)

[shadow_archmagi]

Stick to rifles. Carbines aren't terribly great. Also, you don't have enough firepower to use six markerlights (that is what you're taking on the pathfinders, right?)

Don't pathfinders still have to roll to hit, meaning that six markerlight guns will only reasonably proc 3 markers? Is 1 light per unit really too much? Personally, my instinct would be to never fire with less than BS 5. (but I'm still learning, so maybe that's a bad instinct)

[Squark]

Don't pathfinders still have to roll to hit, meaning that six markerlight guns will only reasonably proc 3 markers? Is 1 light per unit really too much? Personally, my instinct would be to never fire with less than BS 5. (but I'm still learning, so maybe that's a bad instinct)

Yeah, BS 4 is good, and BS 3 is servicable. Also... A unit of six fire warriors isn't really worth marker lighting, Shadowsun is BS 5 anyway (I think), and the suits auto hit and ignore cover with those flamers.

Remember, Marines (BS 4 WS 4 S 4 T4 with 24" rapid fire S4 AP 5 guns) are considered the average, and, T4 or greater, A firewarrior's firepower equals or exceeds that of a Marine (Marines have a (2/3*1/2) chance of wounding T4, while Fire warriors have a (1/2*2/3) Against T5, Fire Warriors have a 25% chance vs the 22% chance Marines have). You're better off with some plasma for the cheeky guy who brings something with a 2+ save or something.

[bluntpencil]

How do you guys rate Kor'sarro Khan with Terminators in a Land Raider?

He gives them Scout, and therefore Outflank. How does this compare to Blood Angels parachute Land Raiders?

I think the ability for a Land Raider Redeemer to start hellishly close to the enemy is pretty good...

[lord_khaine]

EDIT 2, Electric Boogaloo: I know it's Math-Hammer and unreliable. But those numbers are still really crazy.

Actualy, Math-Hammer is not unreliable, people just use it wrong.

And at those numbers of dice thrown around, then the end result becomes very certain.

[bluntpencil]

Re: Screamerstar...

How about Condemnor Boltguns on Ordo Hereticus Inquisitors with Psyocculums to waste Fateweaver? It's very specific though, and unlikely to see use.

Also, Culexus Assassins, for the hell of it.

[Jormengand]

I almost wish that codex: Daemonhunters were still in business just to laugh at screamerstars.

[Tehnar]

Regarding the screamerstar I would tarpit it with my seer council if I were not able to first turn nuke it into oblivion.

Its not a solution for every armybook (I think marines tend to do poorly against it), but some armies are not as bothered with it. I tend to think that a ork green tide list or a tyranid gaunt spam armies won't be as worried about it. It won't do as well as a more balanced army on tournaments, since the odds of running into "counter" armies will be greater.

[Jormengand]

Alternatively, send a Biomancing Hive Tyrant in and spam Iron Arm and Endurance until they get bored of being largely unable to wound you.

Or just flyers, come to think of it.

Also, Cheesegear your guide to the sceamerstar says Foreboding when it should say Forewarning (Which confused me a moment).

[Squark]

Regarding the screamerstar I would tarpit it with my seer council if I were not able to first turn nuke it into oblivion.

Its not a solution for every armybook (I think marines tend to do poorly against it), but some armies are not as bothered with it. I tend to think that a ork green tide list or a tyranid gaunt spam armies won't be as worried about it. It won't do as well as a more balanced army on tournaments, since the odds of running into "counter" armies will be greater.

Thing is, Most of those points aren't actually part of the Screamers. They're just redundancy to ensure you get Forewarning. Those heralds aren't all in the Screamers, they're spread out among the rest of the army buffing it. The actual Screamerstar is only ~350 points. The other 600 points is elsewhere in the army force multiplying/Making Warp Storm actually work utterly terrifying. 350 points for a unit that can only be effectively countered by a single army (Space Wolves can hopefully stop the Forewarning and hit a herald and some of the Screamers with Jaws)? Uhh... My power armor needs changing.

[shadow_archmagi]

All right! Had my first game. 500 point tau strikeforce against a 500 point space wolf training squad.

Spoiler

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After noting that he was fielding two transports and a dreadnought, I apologized for my foolishness and requested that I be allowed to edit my roster, as I realized I'd completely neglected anti-armor beyond my commander. This was mostly because there was a brief moment of confusion when he said his razorbacks had AV 12 (he was still remembering 5th edition) so I thought that literally no one in my army would be capable of damaging them. Since it was my first game, he obliged, noting that anti-vehicle is PROBABLY something that needed to be in any given army anyway, and something that should've been mentioned to me during the planning phases anyway.

I sold a few fire warriors and pathfinders to put a cylic ion cannon and twin-linked missile pod on my crisis suits. I deployed commander shadowsun and her drones as part of the crisis suit team.

He went first and immediately ran straight at me. His razorbacks and dreadnought all fired at my command squad. Fortunately, I had a 2+ cover save because Commander Shadowsun is magical. Unfortunately, I almost immediately lost my command and shield drones. On my, the command squad wrecked the nearest razorback, while the massed fire warriors achieved nothing at all.

Next turn, he moved up, his marines fired at my command squad, failed to wound, and then his vehicles fired, wounded, but cover saves negated all of it. Attempted to charge, prompting an overwatch which killed two of his marines, and then botched his charge roll so his marines didn't actually advance (he needed a 10).

On my turn, I scored a direct hit with the cyclic ion blaster's Blast mode, and a nice pair of Fusion Blaster hits, wiping out the remaining marines. Fire warriors score a single glancing hit on the razorback.

On his turn, the Dreadnought and Razorback continues move up, bounce shots off my cover, and then attempts to charge. The resulting Overwatch bombardment destroys the dreadnought.

On my turn, command squad explodes the razorback, killing two members of his command squad, and fire warrior bombardment claims another.

On his turn, he moves up, fires, and attempts to charge, takes another loss from overwatch, and rolls snake eyes for his charge.

On my turn, fire warriors finish him off.

Total losses on my side: Two drones.

[lord_khaine]

Also, page 49. Next Thread Titles?

Warhammer 40k Tabletop XIX:"its a good day to power armor"

or "I hope you understand the gravity of the situation"

[Forrestfire]

I like "I hope you understand the gravity of the situation" myself.

[bluntpencil]

I love the gravity one.

[shadow_archmagi]

Does all melee combat *have* to begin with a charge, or can you avoid overwatch by normal-moving (or Running) up to be adjacent to your foe? Had a friend talking about Deep Striking directly adjacent to my troops so he wouldn't even have to move.

[Tehnar]

You have to charge or be charged to get into close combat. Otherwise you have to be at least 1" away from enemy models.

[Renegade Paladin]

Does all melee combat *have* to begin with a charge, or can you avoid overwatch by normal-moving (or Running) up to be adjacent to your foe? Had a friend talking about Deep Striking directly adjacent to my troops so he wouldn't even have to move.

Yes. If you're not charging, you may not move within 1" of an enemy model. The rules make this inescapably clear in multiple locations, including the movement phase rules, the assault phase rules, and the rules on deep striking, so I can only conclude your friend was cheating.

[Zappit]

With the new marine codex, an Iron Hands Achilles Land Raider is almost indestructible. It's immune to the lance and melta rules, has 14 armor on all sides, two twin-linked multi-meltas, AND a front-mounted Thunderfire Cannon. It can only carry six models, but if one is a Master of the Forge, that sucker will never run out of hull points.

[shadow_archmagi]

Yes. If you're not charging, you may not move within 1" of an enemy model. The rules make this inescapably clear, so I can only conclude your friend was cheating.

Heh heh. This particular friend is also very new, no worries.

So what happens if a deep strike drops him within 1" of my dude? Mishap?

[Tehnar]

Heh heh. This particular friend is also very new, no worries.

So what happens if a deep strike drops him within 1" of my dude? Mishap?

With regular deep strike models if you scatter onto enemy models you suffer a mishap.

If you have a drop pod, you just move to the closest legal position. Or at least thats how it was in the old codex (but I am assuming they didn't change it).

[hamishspence]

I am assuming they didn't change it.

Yup- it's still: "Reduce scatter distance by the minimum needed to avoid the obstacle".

[Squark]

Yup- it's still: "Reduce scatter distance by the minimum needed to avoid the obstacle".

Well, you also have to disembark in a legal position. Also, the panels are not considered part of the hull at all, so you may have to move models and put them on top of the pod doors if it scatters the wrong way.

[Yaktan]

[QUOTE=shadow_archmagi;16031564]All right! Had my first game. 500 point tau strikeforce against a 500 point space wolf training squad.

Most excellent. Shadowsun's extra cover is very nice in my experience. My problem tends to be not having her run away enough and then people charge her and punch her in the face.

How were the marker lights? I do not have any pathfinders, having focused more on building up my swarm of firewarriors and kroot.

[thereaper]

or "I hope you understand the gravity of the situation"

I think we have a winner.

[Cheesegear]

So, my new Imperial Fists seem to be working out well. Although I'm yet to play against StarScream, because why would I do that to myself?

Imperial Fists, 1750

Spoiler

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Librarian - 170 Points
Force Axe, Auspex, Terminator Armour, Shield Eternal
Mastery Level 2

Scout Squad (x10); Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher - 135 Points
Scout Squad (x10); Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher - 135 Points
Scout Squad (x10); Heavy Bolter - 118 Points
Scout Squad (x10); Heavy Bolter - 118 Points
Scout Squad (x10); Heavy Bolter - 118 Points

Sternguard (x8) - 296 Points
x4 Combi-Meltas, Combi-Grav, x2 Heavy Flamers
Sergeant; Combi-Grav, Melta Bombs
+ Drop Pod

Stormtalon; Skyhammer Missile Launcher - 125 Points
Stormtalon; Skyhammer Missile Launcher - 125 Points

Devastators (x7); x4 Lascannons - 158 Points
Thunderfire Cannon - 100 Points
Thunderfire Cannon - 100 Points

Aegis Defense Line - 50 Points

Kroot do not have a fun time. With Bolster Defences now working on terrain and not just Ruins, Scouts are going to have a 2+ Cover Save, most of the time, and, for the ones that aren't, they can go behind the Aegis for the 3+. I'm tempted to drop the Devastators and Aegis for a Rune Priest and friends, because the Ignores Cover power from Div really hurts.

Also, Thunderfires are Barrage. It's OP. It really, really is.
I like how I can get 7 Devastators with Lascannons, for the same price as I could before for 5 Devastators with Missiles.

Any comments? It's not doing as well as I'd like. But I think that's because I'm playing Imperial Fists, rather than that I'm terrible. But I might be terrible at list-building. Who knows?

[Darwin]

Imperial Fists, 1750

Spoiler

Show

Librarian - 170 Points
Force Axe, Auspex, Terminator Armour, Shield Eternal
Mastery Level 2

Scout Squad (x10); Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher - 135 Points
Scout Squad (x10); Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher - 135 Points
Scout Squad (x10); Heavy Bolter - 118 Points
Scout Squad (x10); Heavy Bolter - 118 Points
Scout Squad (x10); Heavy Bolter - 118 Points

Sternguard (x8) - 296 Points
x4 Combi-Meltas, Combi-Grav, x2 Heavy Flamers
Sergeant; Combi-Grav, Melta Bombs
+ Drop Pod

Stormtalon; Skyhammer Missile Launcher - 125 Points
Stormtalon; Skyhammer Missile Launcher - 125 Points

Devastators (x7); x4 Lascannons - 158 Points
Thunderfire Cannon - 100 Points
Thunderfire Cannon - 100 Points

Aegis Defense Line - 50 Points

Can I just ask if there's any reasons why you are bringing specifically 7 Devastators, and not 5, 6, 8, 9 etc? I've just started my own salamander list and have been wondering about what the optimal devastator unit size should be

[Squark]

I like how I can get 7 Devastators with Lascannons, for the same price as I could before for 5 Devastators with Missiles.

Woah. Space Wolves don't get our Long Fangs (with Lascannons, at least) that cheap (5 lascannon Long Fangs is 175 points).


Yay! They might get nerfed nearly as hard as I've feared!

Can I just ask if there's any reasons why you are bringing specifically 7 Devastators, and not 5, 6, 8, 9 etc? I've just started my own salamander list and have been wondering about what the optimal devastator unit size should be

Depends. Now, prices being what they are, you want some Bolter boys to stand out in front and take bullets for you. In general, 7 is a nice balance of giving you a few ablative wounds and keeping the unit cheap. Also, 7 is an odd number, and humans find odd numbers aesthetically pleasing compared to even numbers.