Dragon shaman don't know crap 'bout dragons

[Zale]

Because illithid head isn't elongated enough to be said to resemble a squid, in my opinion.

So it's a squid with a stubby head.

[FMArthur]

Squids don't have the fearsome powers of mental control that octopuses are known for.

[Zale]

But they're so much more dignified!

[Greenish]

But they're so much more dignified!

You want dignified, you want fearsome mental powers, you want cuttlefish.

[Zale]

Cuttlefish>Dragons!


/thread

[Zaq]

Now that I think about it, I kinda like the idea of favored souls being clueless dupes.

I did once have a campaign where the players were going to run into a gnome who was a Favored Soul and didn't know it, mostly because good ol' Garl thought it'd be lulzy. The kicker, of course, is that Vancian magic was totally illegal in that world, mainly because it always (always) caused horrible and bizarre backlash in a random area around the caster (so the caster rarely suffered, but folks around him usually did). So he wasn't just some harmless old gnome who occasionally had weird effects following him around. He was a gnome who was inherently dangerous to the state. Garl's kind of a prick sometimes.

Unfortunately, that particular arc never got that far, but oh well.

[Shade Kerrin]

What amuses me is how Wu Jen know everything despite them never likely studying The Planes and Religion.

Must counter this one. A fair amount of Wu Jen-unique spells revolve around spirits, which is defined as including incorporeal undead(Kn-Rel) and Elementals(Kn-Pla). Thus, they would have reason to know of these things.

Of course, I find it a bit silly that only religion lets you know about undead, but that's neither here nor there.

[Safety Sword]

... the city of Renton...

Should be called the city of Retcon, IMO.

[The Glyphstone]

I did once have a campaign where the players were going to run into a gnome who was a Favored Soul and didn't know it, mostly because good ol' Garl thought it'd be lulzy. The kicker, of course, is that Vancian magic was totally illegal in that world, mainly because it always (always) caused horrible and bizarre backlash in a random area around the caster (so the caster rarely suffered, but folks around him usually did). So he wasn't just some harmless old gnome who occasionally had weird effects following him around. He was a gnome who was inherently dangerous to the state. Garl's kind of a prick sometimes.

Unfortunately, that particular arc never got that far, but oh well.

Aren't Favored Souls spontaneous casters - i.e., non-Vancian?

[Thurbane]

Some people call 3.5 spontaneous casters "Vancian" because they still rely on spell slots and spell levels. Traditionally, though, it refers more to casters who memorize.

[Zaq]

Yeah, I was using the word in the sense of "anyone with spell slots." It was a fun framing device to convince my group to try incarnum/psionics/ToB/etc.

[qoalabear]

Now parrots, on the other hand, are huge leathery eating machines with wings and quite the conversationalists too. You've got your fire parrot, your ice parrot, your acid parrot, your swamp parrot, your metallic parrots, your prismatic parrots, the great horned parrot hatchling, your thunder lizard parrot, your parro-liches, your shadow parrots, your tien yingwu (them oriental celestial parrots, dontcha know), and...

[Divide by Zero]

What can a parrot do if it's dead? It's clearly nailed to that perch.

[Allanimal]

What can a parrot do if it's dead? It's clearly nailed to that perch.

If it wasn't nailed to the perch...

Wait, I better stop before this gets silly.

[Benly]

If favored souls had K: Religion, they would start complaining about not getting domains or turning and nothing would get done.

Likewise, if dragon shamans had K: Arcana, they would know that dragons don't have mystical auras of awesomeness and lose their best powers in a crisis of faith.

[Darth Stabber]

What can a parrot do if it's dead? It's clearly nailed to that perch.

That depends, though mechants do a lot of bludgeoning damage.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Or, for example, weren't the inventors of sliced bread, central heating, or indoor plumbing?

The world-building project in my sig says otherwise.

Anyway, I would just houserule it to be a class skill for them and if your not the DM and your DM dose not allow that then there is always that feat that gives you knowldage skills as class skills(educated?) or that dragon magizene feat which allows you to choose two skills and make them class skills for you(and you get a +2 bonus in each to boot.)....So getting knowldage(Arcana) on your list without a houserule is easy enough if your willing to spend a feat.(in which case the latter could be better as you can pick up a broken skill(like Diplomacy) along with Knowldage(Arcana).)

[Aron Times]

I hate how sorcerers only get Bluff and not the other social skills, and in 3.0, they didn't even get that! That's right, as originally designed, the charisma-based class didn't get any social skills.

The nice thing about 4e is that sorcerers get the whole package: Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Insight (Sense Motive in 3.5).

[MeeposFire]

Actually doesn't Dragon magic have alternate features for dragons to get draconic auras by trading in spells or something?

[Lord.Sorasen]

If favored souls had K: Religion, they would start complaining about not getting domains or turning and nothing would get done.

Likewise, if dragon shamans had K: Arcana, they would know that dragons don't have mystical auras of awesomeness and lose their best powers in a crisis of faith.

If dragon shamans had Knoledge (Arcana) they'd be dragonfire adepts.

Also I've been curious. What is this phoenix mage or what have you? It was brought up in the thread as having an even stranger skillset.

[Veyr]

It's a dual-progression arcane/martial class. It does not get any Knowledge skills, or Spellcraft.

[Typewriter]

I hear dragons poo diamonds.

Why do you humans all want these? Don't you know they're just my sh... you know what? Nevermind, have one.

[Big Fau]

Actually doesn't Dragon magic have alternate features for dragons to get draconic auras by trading in spells or something?

It has variant Frightful Presences, some of which are useful, the rest are too weak to use.

[Akal Saris]

Knights not getting Diplomacy irked me too.

And for a core class, what's up with bards getting Listen but not Spot? Yeah, I know they have good hearing, but why can't they have good eyesight too?

One PF change I liked was giving Fighters the Knowledge (Dungeoneering) skill.

[Thurbane]

I personally think that Fighters should have had Spot and Listen on their skills list. Seriously, in the core classes, is not the Fighter the stereotypical guard? The one expected to notice and engage monsters?

In actual fact, I think nearly all classes should get Spot & Listen, except perhaps the most studious types who spend most of their lives with heads buried in books.

[FMArthur]

I think the most embarrassing lack on that skill list is Balance. Seriously, what kind of melee class would be bad at balance? And you'd think more iconic 'hero' classes would have Tumble, given its incredible proliference as a maneuver among fictional heroes.

[Thurbane]

I think the most embarrassing lack on that skill list is Balance. Seriously, what kind of melee class would be bad at balance? And you'd think more iconic 'hero' classes would have Tumble, given its incredible proliference as a maneuver among fictional heroes.

Yeah, definitely agree that the Fighter skill list is just plain awful...if/when I do a "fighter fix" for my own game, it's definitely going to include expanding their skills, and boosting them to 4 points/level.

[Big Fau]

I think the most embarrassing lack on that skill list is Balance. Seriously, what kind of melee class would be bad at balance? And you'd think more iconic 'hero' classes would have Tumble, given its incredible proliference as a maneuver among fictional heroes.

Balance clearly isn't a class skill for WotC employees.

[Veyr]

Yeah, definitely agree that the Fighter skill list is just plain awful...if/when I do a "fighter fix" for my own game, it's definitely going to include expanding their skills, and boosting them to 4 points/level.

IMO, there are exactly three (3) classes that deserve 2+Int skill points per level. Those three are the Archivist, Psion, and Wizard. Anything else just doesn't deserve it.

[Tibbaerrohwen]

Well sure, but everything has a better sound with more Firefly in it.

Have to give this a +1.

IMO, there are exactly three (3) classes that deserve 2+Int skill points per level. Those three are the Archivist, Psion, and Wizard. Anything else just doesn't deserve it.

I just put any full caster on this list. Cleric, Favoured Souls, Sorcerers, etc. It just isn't fair to Rogue, Fighter, etc if full casters all had 4-6 +Int skill points. Otherwise they blow other classes out of the water even more. Then again, that keeps them away from the squids.