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  1. - Top - End - #841
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    Default Re: Women who play male characters (in games)

    Appropriate responses from third parties in social situations would do more to reduce rape than any reasonable change in victim behavior would. Asking bystanders to be more aware of the warning signs is certainly more effective than either telling women not to "ask for it" or telling men to "just not rape."

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    As always: Do not be a hero. Do not attempt to fight a violent criminal. If you suspect something is happening call the police. Attempting to do act yourself is liable to get you killed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lamech View Post
    As always: Do not be a hero. Do not attempt to fight a violent criminal. If you suspect something is happening call the police. Attempting to do act yourself is liable to get you killed.
    That said, there are lots of situations where it doesn't take a hero to break things up.

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    Yeah there are lots of situations where whether things escalate into violence or not can really be dependent on whether other people decide to step in or just be standbyers. Lots of people won't even call the police cause they assume someone else will.

  5. - Top - End - #845
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lamech View Post
    Erm... no it isn't. Some people might take it to that conclusion, but its not the logical conclusion.
    Actually it is. It is based in the exact same mentality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lamech View Post
    As always: Do not be a hero. Do not attempt to fight a violent criminal. If you suspect something is happening call the police. Attempting to do act yourself is liable to get you killed.
    Not to bring politics in, but it definitely depends on country and crime.
    A rapist in Sweden will very VERY likely be completely unarmed.

    Also, as mentioned above, if bystanders would pay attention before the actual act...
    Last edited by Avilan the Grey; 2014-01-23 at 02:09 AM.
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  6. - Top - End - #846
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    Default Re: Women who play male characters (in games)

    Quote Originally Posted by Scow2 View Post
    I think male avatars are for men, honestly. The female market is an after thought to the point that it's noteworthy that something is made for them.
    Most female avatars are made for men, as well. If some women happen to like some of them, that's just a happy side-effect.
    Quote Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey View Post
    Actually it is. It is based in the exact same mentality.
    Thank you.

  7. - Top - End - #847
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lamech View Post
    As always: Do not be a hero. Do not attempt to fight a violent criminal. If you suspect something is happening call the police. Attempting to do act yourself is liable to get you killed.
    ...But what if the perpetrators are the police? What do you do then?

    Also, most rapists are not "Violent Criminals" of the murder/brutal assault types. The easiest way to avoid the most common form of rape is to have someone sober watch out for you when you go drinking, and watch out for others who have been drinking.
    Last edited by Scow2; 2014-01-23 at 02:28 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander View Post
    On game avatars, since it's passingly on original topic, even thought I don't technically qualify (actually, it's debatable whether I'd technically qualify even if it was about men and avatars, not being human at all and only male on the technicality I was before death)...
    Gasp! A chance to poke fun at the commodore?! It is my birthday! :D

    Technically, you'd maintain whatever gender identity you had prior, because the entire point of it as a mental thing is it can and often (occasionally?) is separate from physical sex entirely. You would have to have been noticeably agender before the spirit binding, else you'd simply maintain the forward momentum of basic paychological inertia. Sans, you know, complex military brainwashing.

    I cite the existence of Hopereaver. :3

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitten Champion View Post
    Obviously you're wrong. We've yet to have one of you prove yourself the most ruthlessly pedantic and obsessively committed yet, or have the thread locked. The substance of the argument isn't relevant after 10 pages, if you've held on that long.
    What? What kind of fights have you been having? That's not what an argument is supposed to be at all. :?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeivar View Post
    Okay, guys, PLEASE take the lengthy arguments to PM or start a new thread. The point of this thread is right there in the title but you're drowning it out.
    But this tangent stems directly from and frequently re-references the original thread intention. It's not off topic, the topic is just bigger and hotter than you imagined going in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Serpentine View Post
    If you want to explain further why women should cover their ankles if they don't want to be assaulted, I suggest looking online for any number of guides and discussions that will address every argument you can make, because they've been made and debunked a million times before.
    I dunno, I think "other people have already learned this so you don't have to" is a bad idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scow2 View Post
    The problem with Victim Blaming is that...
    The brick thing was to address a specific interfacing issue. Mostly that the responses by one party were correct but didn't actually address the queries of the other party, which leaves the second party either waiting for answers before moving on to the statements or else deciding the other person doesn't have an answer and so their stance must be invalid.

    As someone who just read a Stripper FAQ and has experience in the retail and food industry... Once you bring employment and money into the equation it generally does start dehumanizing people. Rather than employing women to make sure men have fun (There are lots of women who are miffed about not having pleasant experiences with males as well), it would probably be better to... well, we'll have to completely overhaul the entire culture, and it sounds more like a job for Matchmakers.
    This is a complete rehaul of culture. That's why I'm attributing the effectiveness of a cultural rehaul to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Math_Mage View Post
    Appropriate responses from third parties in social situations would do more to reduce rape than any reasonable change in victim behavior would. Asking bystanders to be more aware of the warning signs is certainly more effective than either telling women not to "ask for it" or telling men to "just not rape."
    Good points.

  9. - Top - End - #849
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    What? What kind of fights have you been having? That's not what an argument is supposed to be at all. :?
    I'm confused, this is the internet right? Arguments are supposed to be meandering, pointless, and filled with acrimony.

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    Default Re: Women who play male characters (in games)

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    But this tangent stems directly from and frequently re-references the original thread intention. It's not off topic, the topic is just bigger and hotter than you imagined going in.
    While part of the discussion is still relevant I think the most recent drift into rape culture is pretty far from the original topic.... unless female players have a tendency to play rapists


    On topic: my best (female) friend also tends to play male characters if not all the time quite often. While I never explicitly asked her I think it is because she likes big, beefy, bearded men. So, yeah, another case where eye candy can work for women as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    Gasp! A chance to poke fun at the commodore?! It is my birthday! :D

    Technically, you'd maintain whatever gender identity you had prior, because the entire point of it as a mental thing is it can and often (occasionally?) is separate from physical sex entirely. You would have to have been noticeably agender before the spirit binding, else you'd simply maintain the forward momentum of basic paychological inertia. Sans, you know, complex military brainwashing.

    I cite the existence of Hopereaver. :3
    I was being slightly lack-of-tongue-in-lack-of-cheek... The general thrust of that comment was that I'm not a man (since I'm not a male human), nor a woman (since I'm neither human nor female), so I was equally unqualfied to address the OT. I am a male Lich, though, as was noted with Hopereaver, it matters little enough that I don't really even think of myself as other than A Lich.

    Actually, if we want to get to brass tacks, as I have observed before, I was never human, even when I was physically human; not up here *taps skull*, where it matters.
    Last edited by Aotrs Commander; 2014-01-23 at 06:47 AM.

  12. - Top - End - #852
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitten Champion View Post
    I'm confused, this is the internet right? Arguments are supposed to be meandering, pointless, and filled with acrimony.
    Into my extended sig this goes!

  13. - Top - End - #853
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    Default Re: Women who play male characters (in games)

    Saw this in The Guardian and may be of interest to the thread:

    http://www.theguardian.com/technolog...ut-transgender

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Succubus View Post
    Saw this in The Guardian and may be of interest to the thread:

    http://www.theguardian.com/technolog...ut-transgender
    Not to belittle the problems of trans people I still think it's not the best way action... Yeah, it kind of helps but then one builds ones new identity on a lie if you pretend to ones online friends to be (fe)male. Of course, people should be cool about whatever sex one has but if a relationship is based on a lie I can see why people would feel betrayed and maybe react more harshly upon learning the truth than if one would be honest from the start...
    Then again if one can handle such problems... yeah, I guess you can use an online identity (I guess an MMO is not really required) to test how it feels to be of the other sex.
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    Aaaaand in light of this thread, that last episode with Brock and Totodile of my Pokemon re-watch (Love Totodile Style) suddenly seems a lot more awkward...

    Damn you humans, is there anything you can't suck the fun out of...?

  16. - Top - End - #856
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scow2 View Post
    ...But what if the perpetrators are the police? What do you do then?

    Also, most rapists are not "Violent Criminals" of the murder/brutal assault types. The easiest way to avoid the most common form of rape is to have someone sober watch out for you when you go drinking, and watch out for others who have been drinking.
    I don't think that's actually the most common form of rape.
    You need to read more science fiction. Nobody who reads science fiction comes out with this crap about the end of history.

  17. - Top - End - #857
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    These statistics suggest that it is relatively common, with 47% of cases occurring when both victim and perpetrator had been drinking, and 38% of cases occurring between a victim and a "friend/acquaintance" of the victim rather than an "intimate" or "stranger". True, the majority of cases took place at either the perpetrator's or the victim's home, but that doesn't mean the incident didn't begin at a social occasion.
    Last edited by Math_Mage; 2014-01-23 at 02:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitten Champion View Post
    I'm confused, this is the internet right? Arguments are supposed to be meandering, pointless, and filled with acrimony.
    Goodness, I hope not! Is that what I've been feeding these scraps to? I thought I was nourishing a vine of succulent discussion, not sowing the seeds of egotist brambles!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kato View Post
    On topic: my best (female) friend also tends to play male characters if not all the time quite often. While I never explicitly asked her I think it is because she likes big, beefy, bearded men. So, yeah, another case where eye candy can work for women as well.
    Wait, "I have absolutely no proof or confirmation or reason to believe this except I want to, not even an anecdote; let's use it as proof"? Uh?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander View Post
    I was being slightly lack-of-tongue-in-lack-of-cheek...
    I know, but I had to take the shot. You understand~

    Actually, if we want to get to brass tacks, as I have observed before, I was never human, even when I was physically human; not up here *taps skull*, where it matters.
    That's a pretty good point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kato View Post
    Not to belittle the problems of trans people I still think it's not the best way action... Yeah, it kind of helps but then one builds ones new identity on a lie if you pretend to ones online friends to be (fe)male.
    How is this built on a lie? A transgender person actually is female, there is no deception involved. This only makes sense if you assert that transsexuals aren't real and it's just a mental disorder.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander View Post
    Aaaaand in light of this thread, that last episode with Brock and Totodile of my Pokemon re-watch (Love Totodile Style) suddenly seems a lot more awkward...

    Damn you humans, is there anything you can't suck the fun out of...?
    Nope! They are the super massive black holes of stapling awkward sexual implications to things and guzzling down the psuedomass of hemmorhaging gravitas~!

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    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    Wait, "I have absolutely no proof or confirmation or reason to believe this except I want to, not even an anecdote; let's use it as proof"? Uh?
    I didn't claim it was proof for anything but just a more or less random comment on (some) women's interests?

    How is this built on a lie? A transgender person actually is female, there is no deception involved. This only makes sense if you assert that transsexuals aren't real and it's just a mental disorder.
    Not touching on the more delicate parts of this question but if you read the article you'll notice the writer used pictures of friends and made up lies to avoid webcams and microphones. If that isn't dishonest I'm not quite sure what is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kato View Post
    I didn't claim it was proof for anything but just a more or less random comment on (some) women's interests?
    It's not another case where eye candy works for women too, it's a case where you're assuming eye candy works for the woman in question without actually knowing if it's true.

    Not touching on the more delicate parts of this question but if you read the article you'll notice the writer used pictures of friends and made up lies to avoid webcams and microphones. If that isn't dishonest I'm not quite sure what is.
    Ah, if you meant that one specific instance, that's a different story. Although avoiding webcams and microphones shouldn't be considered weird, should it?
    Last edited by SiuiS; 2014-01-24 at 06:03 AM.

  21. - Top - End - #861
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    Ah, if you meant that one specific instance, that's a different story. Although avoiding webcams and microphones shouldn't be considered weird, should it?
    But... this is the Interwebz!? If you are under 25 you must have posted 5 pictures of yourself with ducklips and topless per day or you are NOBODY!

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    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    That's a pretty good point.
    It is probably the single most important one of that whole line of thinking.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS
    Nope! They are the super massive black holes of stapling awkward sexual implications to things and guzzling down the psuedomass of hemmorhaging gravitas~!
    Indeed. Further proof, if any were needed, Mum was telling me there has been a huge stink about a Flora margerine advert, in which two young (cartoon) children make breakfast for their parents and discover them "wrestling" because it made the mistake of implying sex, because children should, of course, never be exposed to sex ever, at all and it should remain a complete mystery until they are of legal age and probable never even then, so as better to not understand how it works so that teenage pregnacy can be more rife (*is progeny of family planning nurse*), that sort of thing never happens in the real world.

    (I mean, making sex=> evil for the purposes of eliminating humanity is one thing, but trying to pretend something doesn't exist until you're 141/16/18 (country depending) is just catatrophically stupid.)

    I absolutely loathe that advert myself, but that is for the completely different reason that it wasn't funny the first time, and by the twentieth time I've had to sit though it before watching a video on TGWTG, my feelings have not been improved.



    1Random fact I learned from Strawberries during the session on Monday, it is that in Italy. (No idea what context that came up into, now.) Actually, on a morbidly curious wiki search on making this aside, a surprisingly large number of European countries have it at 14 or 15 and 16 is in the upper end. You learn summat new every day.
    Last edited by Aotrs Commander; 2014-01-24 at 07:10 AM.

  23. - Top - End - #863
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    Default Re: Women who play male characters (in games)

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    It's not another case where eye candy works for women too, it's a case where you're assuming eye candy works for the woman in question without actually knowing if it's true.
    While I guess it's incidental evidence at best I know what her preferred type of men looks like and what her game characters often look like... which is pretty identical. Yes, I can only say it applies to her but I think its not far fetched to assume other women would also like to look at something which "fits their type" in video games in the same way fanservice-y naked women are designed for men's pleasure. (Or would you suggest women never make choices based on their desire for eye candy?)

    Ah, if you meant that one specific instance, that's a different story. Although avoiding webcams and microphones shouldn't be considered weird, should it?
    No, not if it's done for reasons of privacy or such. But here the intent was quite clearly to deceive the other people. The thing is... yeah if you prefer to be treated as a (wo)man on the internet, okay. But if someone asks you for pictures or such (which in my opinion already suggests a certain level of intimacy but maybe that's just me) you should be close enough to tell the truth rather than send fake pictures.
    I'm sure not all of the online friends lost after the reveal acted such because they felt betrayed but I'm sure I would even if I understand the motivation behind it. I'd want my friends to be honest with me about it and work from there and not base a friendship on being deceived about such a matter. (And please let's not start on whether or not the gender/sex of a friend (should) matter(s). No, it shouldn't but quite often it does. Or at least possibly does.)


    @Avilan: I'd almost laugh if it wasn't such a tragic matter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kato View Post
    Yes, I can only say it applies to her but
    No, you can't. That's my point; you're making an unsubstantiated leap that her reasons are because eye candy; you haven't asked her, it hasn't come up in conversation and you're not considering the possibility of other reasons. That's all.

    No, not if it's done for reasons of privacy or such. But here the intent was quite clearly to deceive the other people.
    I do not think privacy for the sake of personal safety is to deceive other people, myself. That's the crux; there's a legitimate reason to "lie", and that is that your life will fall apart if one jerk wad decides that you're worth antagonizing.
    Last edited by SiuiS; 2014-01-24 at 07:55 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    No, you can't. That's my point; you're making an unsubstantiated leap that her reasons are because eye candy; you haven't asked her, it hasn't come up in conversation and you're not considering the possibility of other reasons. That's all.
    As I said, I don't want to say it's proof for anything but are you claiming my assumption is far fetched?

    I do not think privacy for the sake of personal safety is to deceive other people, myself. That's the crux; there's a legitimate reason to "lie", and that is that your life will fall apart if one jerk wad decides that you're worth antagonizing.
    I think "personal safety" seems a bit of a wide claim here... "Your identity/reputation in an online game will be destroyed/harmed" and "your life will fall apart" aren't quite the same. (Even though, yes, it could have potential backlash into real world matters if someone decides to really be a **** about it, that seems for the mos part a rather low chance to me. And while I know this will sound mean... if you are afraid this might happen you shouldn't begin with it. I don't want to say such things always get uncovered but it's hard to keep it up forever)

    Maybe we just have to agree to disagree on how important honesty is in this matter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kato View Post
    As I said, I don't want to say it's proof for anything but are you claiming my assumption is far fetched?
    I'm saying it's an assumption.

    I think "personal safety" seems a bit of a wide claim here... "Your identity/reputation in an online game will be destroyed/harmed" and "your life will fall apart" aren't quite the same.
    Uh, web cam? That's not about online rep. That's "you can lose your job and people can track your address via IP etc., to find you and deal with you".

    And for stuff like "you're not really a woman, you lied to me!" People quickly want to correct your 'deviance'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kato View Post
    As I said, I don't want to say it's proof for anything but are you claiming my assumption is far fetched?


    I think "personal safety" seems a bit of a wide claim here... "Your identity/reputation in an online game will be destroyed/harmed" and "your life will fall apart" aren't quite the same. (Even though, yes, it could have potential backlash into real world matters if someone decides to really be a **** about it, that seems for the mos part a rather low chance to me. And while I know this will sound mean... if you are afraid this might happen you shouldn't begin with it. I don't want to say such things always get uncovered but it's hard to keep it up forever)

    Maybe we just have to agree to disagree on how important honesty is in this matter.
    I disagree emphatically here. Transphobic persecution is a horrific thing and a trans person has every right to protect themselves online, without being made to feel guilty about lying or misleading people. For proof, just look at any news article featuring a transgender person. I'd sure as hell want to protect myself from people like that.

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    Huh. I missed a line there.

    Kato, what is honesty? Are you saying it is more important for me to cater to your biases by presenting my non-important birth sex, which is functionally a birth defect, rather than telling you the truth about my being a woman? That if I didn't want to be harassed for not having fifty thousand dollars American and five years worth of hormones and surgery, that I should pretend to be a man instead?

    That's generally what that sounds like.

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    Default Re: Women who play male characters (in games)

    Urgh, I really wish I could find a good way to express my opinion without sounding like a **** but still being honest about it Also, I'm afraid we are treating towards politics (again) and I'd rather like to stay away from that.

    I'll put it short: Nobody makes you "lie" on the internet about your sexual identity. ("Lie" as in "I'm a girl" is not the same as "I'm a girl born in a boy's body" (I hope this phrasing isn't offensive to anyone. If so, please correct me)) If you decide to do it, I don't think it's a good start for forming friendships. And if you drag it out and form closer relationships to people and you still don't tell them the "truth" you are just getting closer and closer to the point when someone will somehow find out. (Even if it is only because maybe people assume you could a suspicious person who may mean harm to others.) And if you lied to people for such a long time - even if you got your reasons - it's not unreasonable for them to feel offended. If you are close enough friends with a person on the internet for them to reasonably ask you for pictures you should also be close enough to tell them the whole story of who you are.

    (I'd rather leave out the real world repercussions part of the argument. I'm aware of it, even if I guess I'm doing humanity a big favor by assuming people largely wouldn't care let alone go through the trouble of actively trying to hurt you, but it's getting again as off-topic as the rape issue earlier. Yeah, it'd be cool if it didn't exist, sadly it exists. And I'd rather stop there or we would get drift away fast)


    edit: Regarding SuiuS last post: As noted above, there is still a difference between "I'm a girl" and "I'm a girl born in the body of a man" and while I know it's not very pc, yes there is a difference for me (and I dare say many others) when it comes to it. Not saying I have anything against trans* people but if you want to treat it as "basically a birth defect" I guess I can say I'd like to know about it the same way I'd want to know it if a person was born blind or deaf or anything else. (And please don't accuse me of comparing trans* people to disabled people, you brought up the birth defect comparison)
    Last edited by Kato; 2014-01-24 at 09:43 AM.
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  30. - Top - End - #870
    Colossus in the Playground
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    Default Re: Women who play male characters (in games)

    I'd be pretty pissed off if someone said they gave me a picture of themselves, and then it turned out to be someone else... A trans woman telling me they're a woman is not a lie, but if they don't want to show me what they really look like they just shouldn't show me anything at all; "I don't feel comfortable sharing my photos over the internet" is a perfectly reasonable, and honest, reason with no need for deception. I don't cope well with liars; I do fine with other people's need for privacy.
    The rest... eeeeeh Kato's getting into dangerous waters there.

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