Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVIII: toy soldiers r srs bsns

[DataNinja]

I can see those images, but your avatar comes and goes according the phases of the moon, or something. As does mine, I know.

Yours is just blurry. As is bluntpencil's, LansXero's, Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll's, and Squark's, just from this the previous page. In case it's still displaying properly on your guys' ends. (Though, since Photobucket causing problems was mentioned before, this is really just re-iterating, I suppose.)

[Cheesegear]

Nope, can't see that stuff at all. It's just black [X] boxes to me.

I can see those images from several different computers, most of which clear their caches weekly...

Now I'm definitely confused.

[DataNinja]

Now I'm definitely confused.

Okay, looks to depend on the browser. Edge does not display either the stuff or your avvy, Chrome displays both. I wonder if Chrome has a built-in scrubber to it...

[Artanis]

CG's avatar and pics also look fine in Opera.

[Turalisj]

So, Raven Guard stuff is up. I guess 3x3 Eliminators are going to be standard in RG armies now.

[Meatgrinder]

So, Raven Guard stuff is up. I guess 3x3 Eliminators are going to be standard in RG armies now.

What do they get?

[Turalisj]

The big thing is +1 to hit and wound characters with the tactical doctrines up. Which means RG will always go for headhunter and Raven Guard smash captains are pretty brutal against HQ. They also have a strat to fall back and shoot or charge with no penalty and get Da Jump as a power.

[xroads]

Okay, looks to depend on the browser. Edge does not display either the stuff or your avvy, Chrome displays both. I wonder if Chrome has a built-in scrubber to it...

Firefox also seems to show everything fine.

[LansXero]

The big thing is +1 to hit and wound characters with the tactical doctrines up. Which means RG will always go for headhunter and Raven Guard smash captains are pretty brutal against HQ. They also have a strat to fall back and shoot or charge with no penalty and get Da Jump as a power.

Everyone forgets Knights are Characters. RG Lascannons hit and wound them in 2s now :D. Also, Mortarion gets wounded in 4s by freaking bolters.



@Cheese: see? even GW knows that doing this is worth 2 CPs :D

[Forum Explorer]

Everyone forgets Knights are Characters. RG Lascannons hit and wound them in 2s now :D. Also, Mortarion gets wounded in 4s by freaking bolters.



@Cheese: see? even GW knows that doing this is worth 2 CPs :D

Not all Knights have to be characters. You can just choose to not use that stratagem if you see you are up against Raven Guard.

[LansXero]

Not all Knights have to be characters. You can just choose to not use that stratagem if you see you are up against Raven Guard.

Isnt that a requisite to get 6 CPs out of the Knight Lance? I mean, sure, you can not take Exalted Court, which has its own issues, but the other one would nerf CPs no?

[Cheesegear]

The big thing is +1 to hit and wound characters with the tactical doctrines up.

It almost makes me want to rate Combat Doctrines.
...Then I see Guard Battalions with Wyverns that shoot twice.
...Then I see Knight Crusaders and Wardens.
...Then I see Vertus Praetors.
Nah.

Posted from phone.

[9mm]

Isnt that a requisite to get 6 CPs out of the Knight Lance? I mean, sure, you can not take Exalted Court, which has its own issues, but the other one would nerf CPs no?

no, Knight lance turns 1 knight into a character, it changes the cp generation to +6 if the detatchment contains 3+ Imperial Knights Titanic units. It stays at 3 if it includes 1 Titanic, and goes to zero if it has none.

[LansXero]

no, Knight lance turns 1 knight into a character, it changes the cp generation to +6 if the detatchment contains 3+ Imperial Knights Titanic units. It stays at 3 if it includes 1 Titanic, and goes to zero if it has none.

So it does HAVE to have 1 Character, no? Not as good sure but still.

[Cheesegear]

I think there might be some confusion from people who don't know how Combat Doctrines work, and thus over-rating how good things might be.

You gain Combat Doctrines if your army is entirely drawn from Codex: Space Marines (not exactly, but that it is correct regarding the army building process).
You gain Doctrines+ if your army is entirely drawn from the same <Chapter>, or a Successor* from the same.

Doctrines+ is absolutely not worth it unless you're talking about gaining a bonus from Devastator Doctrine. That is, <Iron Hands> Devastators coming out of Drop Pods with Grav-Cannons without -1 to hit. Because Devastator Doctrine is Turn 1. Meanwhile, White Scars are making a whole ****-ton of Turn 1 Charges, but, their Doctrine+ is based on Assault Doctrine can't happen 'til Turn 3, so it's useless because you're already orbs deep in your opponents DZ by Turn 2.

But, even with Iron Hands Devastators, to get that 'no -1 to hit', you still have to look at how your army is going work when all of your army is Iron Hands. Is that even viable, running an army, that still ends up being 100% Space Marines?

*Again, I'm still waiting for an authoritative source (not the Facebook/PR Team) to confirm that a Custom Successor still counts as a Successor.

EDIT:
Christ, there are so many Elites for Marines. Luckily, most of them are bad.

[Forum Explorer]

Isnt that a requisite to get 6 CPs out of the Knight Lance? I mean, sure, you can not take Exalted Court, which has its own issues, but the other one would nerf CPs no?

So it does HAVE to have 1 Character, no? Not as good sure but still.

At least one has to be a character, yeah. It isn't a requisite to get the 6 CP, it's a requisite to take 3 Knights in the same detachment at all. You can't opt out of it no matter what.

[Cheesegear]

Guide to Space Marines (Part II)
Defenders of Mankind

Link to Part 1. When going over units and unit options, you'll particularly want to go over the Wargear sections once or twice.

Spoiler: HQ

Show

Primaris Captain: By having this dude at the top of the first page, implies that GW is trying to push that this dude is the 'default' Captain, despite not being in Dark Imperium or Know No Fear. The best wargear he has access to, is the Power Fist. Unfortunately, if you want a Power Fist, GW locks you into having a Plasma Pistol as well, and that's bad. So just ignore that entire sentence and take a Power Sword The Burning Blade. Unfortunately, this dude has neither Teleport Strike and nor can he ride around in a Drop Pod, and Impulsors don't even work for Melee units so this is just...Bad. The Auto Bolt Rifle is better than the Stalker, but that doesn't matter when the model is just this...Bad. If you want a gunline Captain, there is a better one.

Captain in Gravis Armour: With T5 and 7 Wounds, the guy is a fairly decent tank. But then he has the ability to pick up extra wounds and Ignore Wounds via Iron Resolve, and is also a good candidate for Armour Indomitus. His statline is quite good. Unfortunately, he's goof'd real hard by taking a Power Fist and Master-Crafted Power Sword, which is incredibly stupid. Once again, there's nothing wrong with a model who has 5 strong attacks, but he's paying extra points to have two Melee weapons for no reason (don't worry, Guilliman himself, does it too). Despite having two decent Melee weapons, he still falls into the same trap that the above Captain does...He's simply not fast enough - in fact, he's slower than a Primaris Captain. So, yeah. This is the guy you take when your opponents start spamming attacks that can target <Characters>. If your opponents aren't able to shut down Characters, then you have nothing to worry about and you don't need this model... Despite the fact that you're probably going to end up with 3 or 4 of them if you're on a budget.

Captain in Phobos Armour: Coming in cheaper than a Gravis Captain by virtue of not bringing two weapons that compete with each other, this guy comes with a decent Carbine that can target <Characters>. However, it's only 1 shot, and a S4 one, at that. But even one shot with a Carbine per turn against a Character is still more than Gravis Captain is going to do with two Melee weapons. Additionally, his Carbine is an Assault weapon, so he's perfectly happy moving about the board if that's what you want him to do, since he actually can keep up with Infiltrators and Incursors 'cause he's got Concealed Positions too. But the key reason why this guy is so strong, is that units can't be set up within 12" of him. This means that your opponent can't teleport Tzaangors or Meganobz at you, which is amazingly helpful when you're talking about board control, but, even then, a Phobos Captain is anti-alpha strike, and that's all you really need. The dude should also almost always have a 1+ Save.
Interestingly, this is the only Character in the entire book that it's worth taking Purgatorus on by virtue of the fact that he can't take any other weapons. That being said, how 'bout you don't do that, and just put any other Relic on any other model?

Captain in Terminator Armour: 2+ Saves are over-rated. That being said, this Captain can take Chainfist & Storm Shield. A Lightning Claw is good too, but you probably want to look at the next Captain for that. For no real reason, Terminator Captains are more expensive than their Primaris counterparts, which generally makes them poor picks, even this early in the Codex. That said, <Terminator> models with Storm Bolters should never be overlooked. That said, everytime you don't take a Chainfist, you could just have a Captain with Jump Pack for cheaper.

• ...in Cataphractii Armour: The other Terminator Captain. Same cost, except is better. Because he has a natural 3+ Invulnerable, you're safe to take the dual Lightning Claws for the extra attack. His weaker movement is a non-factor, because he has Teleport Strike and should never not set up 9" away from your opponent. With that said, Terminator Captains - including the above one - are very niche models that only work in certain army builds.

Captain: Regular nerd. Before you do anything, you want to drop the Master-Crafted Boltgun for a Storm Bolter. The only reason to keep the M-C Boltgun is if you're going to put on Primarch's Wrath. In any case, if your Captain isn't riding in a Drop Pod, then he's on the gunline. Throw on a Storm Shield if you want or if your opponents are particularly aggressive. There's really not much to say - he hands out re-roll 1s to hit. If you're running a Melee Captain (in a Drop Pod), Teeth of Terra and Burning Blade are far and away the best choices. If you don't want to burn your Relic slot or a CP on your Captain, you can always settle for a Thunder Hammer or Power Fist - that being said, Thunder Hammers are 40 Points, so you'd better be sure you know what you're doing. Burning Blade & Storm Shield is a very efficient combination.

• ...on Bike: The main reason to take this Captain is so you can have Twin Boltgun and Storm Bolter for a total of 8 Rapid Fire Bolt shots on a <Biker> model. Throw on a Storm Shield to make the T5 and 6 Wounds actually mean something.
• ...with Jump Pack: It's a Melee Captain that isn't reliant on a Drop Pod. Having <Fly> means he can jump over terrain and units. But since he can't Charge over Infantry screens, he'd better be able to deal with massed blobs of Infantry before he gets to his real target. Teeth of Terra and Fighting again is always solid, especially since Teeth of Terra is S5, AP-2 is good against everything.

Lieutenants: HQ choice that hands out re-roll 1s to wound. His weapon options are basically the same as the Captain's, except now he can't take Storm Shields. Interestingly, Lieutenants come with WS2+, and BS3+, the implication being that Lieutenants are better in Melee than Shooting. Then again, Lieutenants only have 3 Attacks, whilst a Storm Bolter has 4. So yeah, get rid of the M-C Boltgun that costs points that you're bad with. His 3 Attacks means he's a poor choice to run Relic weapons, and his inability to re-roll 1s to hit (by himself), means he's a poor choice to run Power Fists and Thunder Hammers. So if you're going to run a Lieutenant with a Melee weapon, run a Power Axe. It's cheap. It's good. It's cheap and good.

• ...with Jump Pack: Not really necessary. But nothing's changed - Storm Bolter & Power Axe, and done.

Primaris Lieutenants: For what it's worth, M-C Auto Bolt Rifles have 3 shots, but then again, Lieutenants are BS3+, and it's S4, AP- which is nothing. For the same cost you can pick up a Power Sword. It doesn't really matter how you spend your 4 Points unless your opponents are really aggressive, and then you'll want the Power Sword.

Lieutenants in Phobos Armour: Unlike other Phobos HQs, this guy forgot how Concealed Position works, and so instead shows up on Turn 2 like an idiot. That said, if he's not going to do anything until Turn 2, maybe Tactical Doctrine is up to give him AP-1 on his Carbine. Combat Knives vs. Paired Combat Blades is essentially neglible, so it doesn't matter. The big argument is Heavy Bolt Pistol vs. the Carbine...The Carbine wins, even though it costs points. Even then, by forgetting how Concealed Position works, this is by far the worst Phobos HQ, and it's lucky that Infiltrators can pick up his Aura anywhere on the board, because you're just going to stick him in your gunline anyway, right?

Librarian: With access to the Librarius Discipline, his focus is on buffing your units. Except a Chaplain is arguably better at it, for less Points, and Chaplains can't be Denied and don't get shafted by your opponent tailoring in a Culexus Assassin. There is very little difference between the various Force Weapons. The Force Axe is the best, obviously, but it costs 2 Points extra. But, really, your Librarians should never, ever be in Melee with anything stronger than a Space Marine Centurion (T5, 3 Wounds), in which case, Force Staves are pretty decent against all but the toughest of targets, and if you're pitting your Librarian against Daemon Princes, you'd better be running Null Zone and have backup.

• ...with Jump Pack: Nothing changes except your Librarian is more expensive.

Primaris Librarian: Nothing changes except your Librarian is more expensive...And can only take a Force Sword.

Librarian in Terminator Armour: How desperately do you really need one more <Terminator> Storm Bolter in your list, and even then...No, really...Do you?

Librarian in Phobos Armour: Despite being unequivocally better than the normal Primaris Librarian, Phobos Librarians still cost the same points. The only difference is you have to pay +3 Points for the Camo Cloak. Okay? Pay 3 Points for a 1+ save. Life over, right? In any case, with drawing its Powers from the Obscuration Discipline, this guy is focused on debuffing your opponents units, which is always very handy, especially if you're backing him up with Incursors. Having Concealed Position is an extremely strong start, and might put your Psychic Hood within range on Turn 1. A very strong model, even if the model itself, is a meme.

Primaris Chaplain: ...Is like a normal Chaplain, but more expensive.

Chaplain: At the start of the Battle Round - even if your opponent goes first - roll a 3+ and do a Litany - pick your favourite. The obvious downside is that if you should fail the 3+, then your Chaplain is doing ****-all and what did you even bring him for? ...Then again, what does a Librarian do if they fail their Psychic test? Not only that, but Librarians can also be Denied, too. A Librarian has two failure points, whilst a Chaplain only has one. In any case, Lieutenants always work, all the time. Do what you want. That being said, if you're ever taking units that are larger than 5 models, or your opponent is doing Leadership shenanigans, <Chapter> units within 6" always use the Chaplain's Leadership. Which has a few niche uses. But not that many to get excited over.

• ...with Jump Pack: Power Fists are always solid. But there's also Benediction of Fury. But, then again, you don't really need a Jump Pack when you could be in Drop Pods, instead.

Chaplain in Terminator Armour: Packing that Storm Bolter and 2+ Save. What else is there?

Techmarine: Drop the Power Axe for a free Chainsword because a Techmarine has WS3+ and why are you paying points to fail - it's not rocket science. Exchange the Bolt Pistol for a Boltgun or Storm Bolter, and done. Servo-Arms, being free, are always good to have more of, so if you want you can take the full Servo-Harness and get even more ranged weapons - the key to this is that you don't have any Pistol weapons, even the Plasma Cutter is an Assault weapon. So yeah. With BS2+, pack as many ranged weapons as you can and shoot all of them. Healing Vehicles is also pretty neat if you run a lot of 'em. But, make note that Thunderfire Cannons bring Techmarines with them, and it's not neccessary to burn your HQ slots on Techmarines if what you need them to do is heal Vehicles that don't leave your own DZ.

Spoiler: Troops

Show

Intercessor Squad: The models that GW pushes the hardest and the most, being in both Dark Imperium and Know No Fear, so, if you're going to start buying Marines on a budget, you're going to end up with a load of Intercessors. Unfortunately, all of the single-pose Intercessor models that you get out of starter kits are going to come with the standard Bolt Rifles. Now, that's fine, if you're dealing with opponents who are playing with armies just like yours. That is, moderately costed models where total model count in an army just barely breaks 50. Unfortunately, in a competitive meta, where your Marines are going to be outnumbered 3:1 even on a bad day, Auto Bolt Rifles are the clear best weapon for Intercessors. Unfortunately, converting starter models to Auto Bolt Rifles requires cutting up Storm Bolters, and if you have any Storm Bolters in your collection (let alone 10-15 of 'em), you should be using them for something else. So that's really unfortunate.

• Intercessor Sergeant Weapons; Because Intercessors are relatively cheap, you can freely give them any Melee weapon you want - yes, even Thunder Hammers - and it's still an efficient use of points, on paper. In reality, however, Intercessors are not designed to be a Melee unit, and as such they're not particularly good at moving across the board and you're way better off just sticking with a free Chainsword - even if the mathhammer for Thunder Hammers says they're not a bad deal.

Tactical Squad: Power Armour & Boltguns. Basically, Primaris Marines, but smaller. Unfortunately, the same is said for their weapons. Boltguns don't compare to Bolt Rifles, and they definitely don't compare to Auto Bolt Rifles. So, the reason to take Tactical Squads is specifically because of the access to Special, Heavy, and Sergeant weapons. Also, they're a Defender of Humanity unit that can ride in a Drop Pod, which is always good. But, then again...So are Scouts.

Infiltrator Squad: At the lower end, they're not as good as Intercessors with Auto Bolt Rifles (primarily because Infiltrators cost 4 more points each). At the Big Stuff end, they're more effective, because while ABRs and Marksman Bolt Carbines are both S4, AP-, and the ABR has more shots, fact is, an MBC gets free wounds on a 6 to hit, which is really, really strong in the right army - but we'll talk about that 'right army' when we deal with Supplements. For everyone else, you really don't need more than a single unit, in the middle of the board (Concealed Positions), using the same Omni-Scrambler rule that a Phobos Captain has, whilst sitting on an Objective, or in a choice terrain. The Infiltrator Comms Array is pretty good for turning 1s into 6s, but, of course it only works if you're running a <Phobos Captain>. Depending on how many Infiltrators you have, you might also think about running a <Phobos Lieutenant>. But, if you're not running more than...Like...5...You definitely don't want a Phobos Lieutenant clogging up your army.

• Helix Adept: Garbage waste of 10 Points. A 5+ is not an easy roll to make, and if you fail the roll, the model can't shoot that turn. I don't know if you read, but the MBC is the best part about that model, and you're just leaving in the dirt 4 out of 6 turns. Good one.

Incursor Squad: Infiltrators, but for Melee. There's a very good chance that you can go all-in and take as many as you can, like, at least 30. As with most <Phobos> units, they come with Concealed Positions, which allows them to set up during deployment 9" from your opponent's DZ, move 6" in your Turn 1, and then if your opponent is pushing their DZ, you get to attempt a 3" Charge...Albeit with S4, AP- attacks. Because S4, AP- is nothing, spamming Incursors is can be problematic. Because like a stupid idiot that's stupid, a Phobos Lieutenant does not have Concealed Positions and can't start the game hugging your Incursors because GW forgot how to write good rules. That said, you can run a Phobos Captain, and turn those 1s into 6s and score extra hits. So, yeah. This is an all-in strategy. Which means that if you don't go first, you need a ****-ton of models on the board or your gimmick falls into the drain. That being said...

Gene-Wrought Might; When you roll a 6 to hit in Melee, you also wound for free - just like Infiltrators' Carbines. So basically, rolling a '6' to hit gives you a wound, and another attack. Pretty solid.

Scout Squad: Basically, Tactical Marines...But with 4+ Armour and Concealed Positions. Wait...A unit with Concealed Positions costs less than a unit that doesn't? One day GW will learn that Tactical Marines should cost the same as Scouts - if not less! Astartes Shotguns are really good if you can get that S5 up, but, that's just throwing your Scouts away. Boltguns are the exact same weapon as Tactical Weapons, so you can just deploy your Scouts in the same way you would your Tactical Marines (inlcuding in Drop Pods, maybe), and they're basically the same but 1 less point per model. Sniper Rifles are a solid choice when hanging around with a <Lieutenant> so you can turn those 1s into Mortal Wounds on a 6+ to wound. Turn 1, Devastator Doctrine will also apply, making them AP-1, instead of AP-. While AP-1 wont make your opponent cry, it'll mean that they don't laugh at AP-, especially when you're trying to kill Characters - every wound counts. Combat Blade Scouts are largely replaceable by Incursors, then again, Incursors are 19 Points each and maybe you don't want to be outnumbered 3:1...Replacing some Incursor units with Scouts will only mean you're outnumbered 2:1. Much better. Scouts also have access to Heavy Bolters and Missile Launchers, which are both reasonable Heavy weapons to take.
If you want to go solo-Marines for those sweet Doctrines+ found in Supplements, you're going to be abusing that Triple-Battalion pretty hard, and you're going to need Scouts to make it almost viable. Hope you didn't think your army was arbitrarily going to be Primaris-only.

[Wraith]

Spoiler: Troops

Show

Intercessor Squad: The models that GW pushes the hardest and the most, being in both Dark Imperium and Know No Fear, so, if you're going to start buying Marines on a budget, you're going to end up with a load of Intercessors. Unfortunately, all of the single-pose Intercessor models that you get out of starter kits are going to come with the standard Bolt Rifles. Now, that's fine, if you're dealing with opponents who are playing with armies just like yours. That is, moderately costed models where total model count in an army just barely breaks 50. Unfortunately, in a competitive meta, where your Marines are going to be outnumbered 3:1 even on a bad day, Auto Bolt Rifles are the clear best weapon for Intercessors. Unfortunately, converting starter models to Auto Bolt Rifles requires cutting up Storm Bolters, and if you have any Storm Bolters in your collection (let alone 10-15 of 'em), you should be using them for something else. So that's really unfortunate.

• Intercessor Sergeant Weapons; Because Intercessors are relatively cheap, you can freely give them any Melee weapon you want - yes, even Thunder Hammers - and it's still an efficient use of points, on paper. In reality, however, Intercessors are not designed to be a Melee unit, and as such they're not particularly good at moving across the board and you're way better off just sticking with a free Chainsword - even if the mathhammer for Thunder Hammers says they're not a bad deal.

Tactical Squad: Power Armour & Boltguns. Basically, Primaris Marines, but smaller. Unfortunately, the same is said for their weapons. Boltguns don't compare to Bolt Rifles, and they definitely don't compare to Auto Bolt Rifles. So, the reason to take Tactical Squads is specifically because of the access to Special, Heavy, and Sergeant weapons. Also, they're a Defender of Humanity unit that can ride in a Drop Pod, which is always good. But, then again...So are Scouts.

Infiltrator Squad: At the lower end, they're not as good as Intercessors with Auto Bolt Rifles (primarily because Infiltrators cost 4 more points each). At the Big Stuff end, they're more effective, because while ABRs and Marksman Bolt Carbines are both S4, AP-, and the ABR has more shots, fact is, an MBC gets free wounds on a 6 to hit, which is really, really strong in the right army - but we'll talk about that 'right army' when we deal with Supplements. For everyone else, you really don't need more than a single unit, in the middle of the board (Concealed Positions), using the same Omni-Scrambler rule that a Phobos Captain has, whilst sitting on an Objective, or in a choice terrain. The Infiltrator Comms Array is pretty good for turning 1s into 6s, but, of course it only works if you're running a <Phobos Captain>. Depending on how many Infiltrators you have, you might also think about running a <Phobos Lieutenant>. But, if you're not running more than...Like...5...You definitely don't want a Phobos Lieutenant clogging up your army.

• Helix Adept: Garbage waste of 10 Points. A 5+ is not an easy roll to make, and if you fail the roll, the model can't shoot that turn. I don't know if you read, but the MBC is the best part about that model, and you're just leaving in the dirt 4 out of 6 turns. Good one.

Incursor Squad: Infiltrators, but for Melee. There's a very good chance that you can go all-in and take as many as you can, like, at least 30. As with most <Phobos> units, they come with Concealed Positions, which allows them to set up during deployment 9" from your opponent's DZ, move 6" in your Turn 1, and then if your opponent is pushing their DZ, you get to attempt a 3" Charge...Albeit with S4, AP- attacks. Because S4, AP- is nothing, spamming Incursors is can be problematic. Because like a stupid idiot that's stupid, a Phobos Lieutenant does not have Concealed Positions and can't start the game hugging your Incursors because GW forgot how to write good rules. That said, you can run a Phobos Captain, and turn those 1s into 6s and score extra hits. So, yeah. This is an all-in strategy. Which means that if you don't go first, you need a ****-ton of models on the board or your gimmick falls into the drain. That being said...

Gene-Wrought Might; When you roll a 6 to hit in Melee, you also wound for free - just like Infiltrators' Carbines.



...This means that when Incursors roll a 6 to hit, with Gene-Wrought Might on them, one 6 to hit, causes two automatic wounds. Making that Turn 1 Charge is really, really good. Hell, Infiltrators even have Defenders of Humanity to steal your opponent's Objectives, and the only way your opponent can stop you is, well, by going first. Which they will do about half the time. But as long as one unit of 10 survives, Gene-Wrought Might can do the thing.

Scout Squad: Basically, Tactical Marines...But with 4+ Armour and Concealed Positions. Wait...A unit with Concealed Positions costs less than a unit that doesn't? One day GW will learn that Tactical Marines should cost the same as Scouts - if not less! Astartes Shotguns are really good if you can get that S5 up, but, that's just throwing your Scouts away. Boltguns are the exact same weapon as Tactical Weapons, so you can just deploy your Scouts in the same way you would your Tactical Marines (inlcuding in Drop Pods, maybe), and they're basically the same but 1 less point per model. Sniper Rifles are a solid choice when hanging around with a <Lieutenant> so you can turn those 1s into Mortal Wounds on a 6+ to wound. Turn 1, Devastator Doctrine will also apply, making them AP-1, instead of AP-. While AP-1 wont make your opponent cry, it'll mean that they don't laugh at AP-, especially when you're trying to kill Characters - every wound counts. Combat Blade Scouts are largely replaceable by Incursors, then again, Incursors are 19 Points each and maybe you don't want to be outnumbered 3:1...Replacing some Incursor units with Scouts will only mean you're outnumbered 2:1. Much better. Scouts also have access to Heavy Bolters and Missile Launchers, which are both reasonable Heavy weapons to take.
If you want to go solo-Marines for those sweet Doctrines+ found in Supplements, you're going to be abusing that Triple-Battalion pretty hard, and you're going to need Scouts to make it almost viable. Hope you didn't think your army was arbitrarily going to be Primaris-only.

Sorry to nitpick Cheesegear, but appears that you have made a mistake towards the bottom of the new section to the guide - you seem to have inadvertently forgotten to include an entry for my Crusader Squads.

...Cheesegear?

....CHEESEGEAR!?!

[Cheesegear]

Sorry to nitpick Cheesegear, but appears that you have made a mistake towards the bottom of the new section to the guide - you seem to have inadvertently forgotten to include an entry for my Crusader Squads.

Crusader Squads are part of the Character Update (despite not being Characters), they're also Chapter Specific.
So I'll get around to them when I do the Chapters individually.

So, Crusader Squads aren't in the Core Codex like they used to be...They're DLC! Despite having been free in previous editions!

[LeSwordfish]

I kind of like the idea of running a primaris-y Iron Hands list, with lots of Intercessors and Dreadnoughts. If a Redemptor has re-rolls of ones, +1 AP, and keeps its BS when moving with its plasma gun, and doesn't deteriorate until its at like three wounds, does that make it any good?

[Cheesegear]

If a Redemptor has re-rolls of ones, +1 AP, and keeps its BS when moving with its plasma gun, and doesn't deteriorate until its at like three wounds, does that make it any good?

So you're changing a Macro Plasma to -5...Why? If you're talking about changing the Heavy Onslaught to AP-2, we're getting somewhere.
Losing BS whilst moving is one of the signature failings of Dreadnoughts. So, if you didn't have that, that's...Good.

But, you've still got the problem that even the cheapest Redemptor is over 150 Points, whilst the Invictor Warsuit costs ~20 Points less, and somehow has Concealed Positions. If you're talking about Primaris Marines and Plasma, and you aren't referring to Hellblasters, you might be making a misplay. That being said, I've always wanted to do this, which is even better with the 8.5 Codex reducing points.

SHAD
Roboute Guilliman - 320 Points

Battalion #1
Techmarine; Boltgun, Flamer, Plasma Cutter, Chainsword, Servo-Arms (x2) - 56 Points
Techmarine; Boltgun, Flamer, Plasma Cutter, Chainsword, Servo-Arms (x2) - 56 Points

Servitors (x4); Plasma Cannons (x2) - 52 Points
Dreadnought; Missile Launcher, Twin Lascannon - 120 Points
Venerable Dreadnought; Missile Launcher, Twin Lascannon - 140 Points
Venerable Dreadnought; Missile Launcher, Twin Lascannon - 140 Points
Venerable Dreadnought; Missile Launcher, Twin Lascannon - 140 Points

Battalion #2
Techmarine; Boltgun, Flamer, Plasma Cutter, Chainsword, Servo-Arms (x2) - 56 Points
Techmarine; Boltgun, Flamer, Plasma Cutter, Chainsword, Servo-Arms (x2) - 56 Points

Ironclad Dreadnought; Hunter-Killer Missiles (x2), Meltagun, Storm Bolter, Seismic Hammer, Ironclad Assault Launchers - 133 Points
Ironclad Dreadnought; Hunter-Killer Missiles (x2), Meltagun, Storm Bolter, Seismic Hammer, Ironclad Assault Launchers - 133 Points
Ironclad Dreadnought; Hunter-Killer Missiles (x2), Meltagun, Storm Bolter, Seismic Hammer, Ironclad Assault Launchers - 133 Points
Redemptor Dreadnought; Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Storm Bolters (x2) - 155 Points
Redemptor Dreadnought; Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Storm Bolters (x2) - 155 Points
Redemptor Dreadnought; Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Storm Bolters (x2) - 155 Points

Total: 2000 Points

[Wraith]

So, Crusader Squads aren't in the Core Codex like they used to be...They're DLC! Despite having been free in previous editions!

Yeah, that's the joke I was making more than actually calling you out, don't worry about it

I get why they're doing Chapter Codices. It just sucks that BT Crusaders are the only Chapter-specific squad not already available in an equivalent like Codex Blood Angels/Space Wolves/Dark Angels, AND that the BT/Imperial Fists aren't the next book out.

Iron Hands and Raven Guard are nice, don't get me wrong, but they don't have anything that's being "waited on", its all new stuff that no one knows that they need yet. BT's are... whenever? Which means that I'm arbitrarily unable to play my army for the next n months because "GW says so".

[Squark]

Mathhammer question. Aren't Lightning Claws better than Power Axes in most cases?

Let's see...
-When Base Strength+1 is twice Toughness (Unit has base S5 somehow, and is attacking something toughness 3): 8/9 >5/6. Lightning Claw wins.
-When Base strength+1 is 1 higher than toughness (Marine vs Marine): 3/4>2/3. Lightning Claw wins
-When Base strength+1 is equal to toughness (Marines vs. Plague Marines): 5/9>1/2. Lightning Claw wins.
-When Base strength+1 is one less than half toughness (Marines v. T8): 11/36<1/3. Power Axe wins.
In cases where none of these are true, the Lightning Claw obviously wins, because the base odds are the same.

So unless your marines are picking a fight with a Knight, doesn't the lightning claw give you better odds? And even if you do survive a Knight's initial attack, is an extra 1/36 chance of wounding going to matter?

[hamishspence]

BT's are... whenever? Which means that I'm arbitrarily unable to play my army for the next n months because "GW says so".

Isn't the free Character Update with their stats in, tourney-legal?

[Drasius]

So, while I finally managed go get around to putting some paint on a model in my local GW for the first time in months, I learned to my annoyance that apparently FW has become accepted for general use. WTF is wrong with these people?

[Corsair14]

FW has been accepted for general use for many years now. I think I have a single marine army list that doesn't have some sort of FW and every single other army has something here and there, even if its just a character. Not using FW is an oddity these days, especially since GW does the points for FW now while FW just makes cool looking models.

[druid91]

FW has been accepted for general use for many years now. I think I have a single marine army list that doesn't have some sort of FW and every single other army has something here and there, even if its just a character. Not using FW is an oddity these days, especially since GW does the points for FW now while FW just makes cool looking models.

I mean... Forge World Stuff is still generally better rules wise for no apparent reason.

[Cheesegear]

It just sucks that BT Crusaders are the only Chapter-specific squad not already available in an equivalent like Codex Blood Angels/Space Wolves/Dark Angels

Is this a joke to you?



inb4; Black Templars are just Space Wolves with better memes.

Mathhammer question. Aren't Lightning Claws better than Power Axes in most cases?

How many? 5 Lightning Claws = 6 Power Axes.
Second, what model are you running them on? A Captain or Lieutenant does just fine with an Axe. A Tactical Sergeant, gets more use out of a Lightning Claw. However, remembering that a Scout Sergeant is a Troops unit, and thus gets more benefit out of being cheap. Especially across three Battalions.
Third, do you have a Lieutenant? They're a force multiplier. Why not? If so, Lightning Claws are less useful.

But, your complicated way is...Bad.

T3 = The Lightning Claw is basically +1 better.
T4 = The Lightning Claw is better, but not as much as a +1.
T5 = Difference is irrelavent.
T6-7 = Lightning Claw is +1 better.
T8 = Difference is irrelevant.

The Lightning Claw is better. The Power Axe is cheaper, so in cases where 'difference is irrelavent', the Power Axe is better.

[Wraith]

Is this a joke to you?

Look me in the eye and ask me again, "Are Space Wolves a joke?" - I double-dare ya.

Isn't the free Character Update with their stats in, tourney-legal?

It is, but... I don't want to use home-made print-offs of datasheets.

Sisters of Battle, Blood Angels, and former-Index players hated doing it and so do I - please GW, just tell me when my book comes out so that I can give money to you? That's all I need; if it could come out sooner than "TBA" that would be a nice bonus, y'know?

[Saambell]

Is this a joke to you?



inb4; Black Templars are just Space Wolves with better memes.

Its Space Wolves, of course its a joke.

Been out of the game for a while, but in the next month or two I might be in a place to get back into it. My issue is I am no where near a place I can play with a larger group, so I'm going to be playing basement warhammer with my brother, who's more of a lore nerd and into theme armies as a joke. While he does have a solid start to Death Guard with Mortarian, 2 Know no Fears, and most of the Death Guard half of a Dark Imperium he got off eBay, and has the start of either Dark Angels or Blood Angels with plans to mix them, he also got it in his head to make a joke army of converted Chaos Marines, making jokes of the unit names. Khorne Terminators made out of Mega Nobs, Raptors/Warp Talons made out of Rubricae parts, Noise Marines with a Twin Powerfist Sargent, and Death Guard Terminators which he already has picked up, unbuilt, and likes the design of. He full on knows this army would be bad, but he just wants it as a joke.
Knowing this, I could either continue collecting Space Marines, or I could go back to my old love for Tyranids. I got 1500 points roughly of both, given how I bounce around a lot, having 500-1500 of basically most armies in the game. Which will likely all be used to try to keep things fresh and interesting as we lack a proper game shop in town, the closest being the next city over with a 20-30 minute drive to get there. What army should I look into expanding given a far more casual setting? I got the start of basically any, but I want these games to be more of a toss up who wins, cause I chased my other brother out of playing by crushing him in an uneven match up in his first game. Don't want to do it a second time.