[3.5 Class] Spell Savant - A Generic Spell Specialist

[Pyromancer999]

Background- Basically, I thought it would be sort of funny in an oxymoronic way to have a generic specialist. Then I thought of how in manga, many magic users can perform what would be mechanically from multiple schools with one discipline(like elemental wielding and such). So this class is sort of the brainchild of that one moment. Please Enjoy!

Spell Savant

Everyone knows of the wizards that specialize in things: The Illusionist, Necromancer, etc. Great. Cool. However, sometimes there comes along a person with a true penchant for a set of abilities, able to do things with certain kinds of spells that even elude masters of such disciplines that have been studying it for years.

Class Skills
The Spell Savant's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Profession (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), and two others of the player's choice.

Skill Points: 2 + Int modifier Skill levels

Hit dice: d6

The Spell Weaver
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Class Features|Spell Levels|Maximum Spell Level

1st|

+0

|

+0

|

+0

|

+2

|Spellcasting, Specialization(1 Caster Point)|4 |1

2nd|

+1

|

+0

|

+0

|

+3

|Savant's Knowledge |6 |1

3rd|

+1

|

+1

|

+1

|

+3

| |9 |1

4th|

+2

|

+1

|

+1

|

+4

|Savant's Knowledge |13 |2

5th|

+2

|

+1

|

+1

|

+4

|Specialization(2 Caster Points) |18 |2

6th|

+3

|

+2

|

+2

|

+5

|Savant's Knowledge |24 |3

7th|

+3

|

+2

|

+2

|

+5

| |31 |3

8th|

+4

|

+2

|

+2

|

+6

|Savant's Knowledge |39 |4

9th|

+4

|

+3

|

+3

|

+6

| |48 |4

10th|

+5

|

+3

|

+3

|

+7

|Savant's Knowledge, Specialization(3 Caster Points) |58 |5

11th|

+5

|

+3

|

+3

|

+7

| |69 |5

12th|

+6/+1

|

+4

|

+4

|

+8

|Savant's Knowledge |81 |6

13th|

+6/+1

|

+4

|

+4

|

+8

| |94 |6

14th|

+7/+2

|

+4

|

+4

|

+9

|Savant's Knowledge |108 |7

15th|

+7/+2

|

+5

|

+5

|

+9

|Specialization(4 Caster Points) |123 |7

16th|

+8/+3

|

+5

|

+5

|

+10

|Savant's Knowledge |139 |8

17th|

+8/+3

|

+5

|

+5

|

+10

| |156 |8

18th|

+9/+4

|

+6

|

+6

|

+11

|Savant's Knowledge |174 |9

19th|

+9/+4

|

+6

|

+6

|

+11

| |193 |9

20th|

+10/+5

|

+6

|

+6

|

+12

|Savant's Knowledge, Specialization(5 Caster Points) |215 |9 [/table]

Class Features

Weapon Proficiencies: Spell Savants are proficient with all simple weapons, and 1 martial weapons. Spell Savants are proficient with leather and padded armor, which does not interfere with their spellcasting.

Spellcasting: You may choose one mental ability score to serve as your casting ability score. The DCs of your spells are 10 + total spell levels in casting + your casting modifier. You know all cantrips with a descriptor or school you have chosen through Specialization, and gain 4 1st level spells, divided equally amongst all the descriptors/schools you chose through Specialization. Each level on, you may only learn two more spells each level. However, you may research or otherwise learn spells of your selected schools/descriptors, much like a Wizard, except that you may only learn up to your casting ability modifier + number of Caster Points for that school/descriptor in spells this way(see Specialization). If a spell you would choose is on multiple spell lists, you treat the spell as being the highest level it is available to a class(ex. A spell is available as a 1st and 2nd level spell, so you would treat it as a 2nd level spell for the purpose of learning it).You cast using spell levels. In this system, you lose 1 level per spell of level cast. Your total spell levels per day are given as on the table above. Spells are cast as Arcane spells.

Specialization: Specialists are known for one thing specifically: Specializing. Choose up to four spell descriptors. You may only choose spells having these descriptors. You may also choose schools instead of descriptors for this class feature, counting each school as two descriptors. You may always choose spells from the Universal school no matter what. Whenever you cast a spell, you gain Caster Points to use on the spell, the number of which is listed on the table above. You may expend 1 Caster Point to add +1 to either the DC or caster level of the spell when cast. You may expend 2 Caster Points per level it would add to the spell to add a metamagic effect to the feat for free. You may give up one spell descriptor choice to add 1 Caster Point to the casting of all spells of one other spell descriptor/school you chose using this class feature. You may only give up to two spell descriptor choices this way.

Savant's Knowledge: At 2nd level, and every two levels after, you may choose an ability from this list:

Spoiler

Show

Metamagic Feat: You gain any Metamagic feat you qualify for as a bonus feat. You may choose this ability multiple times, gaining a new Metamagic feat each time.

Specialist's Counterspell: Choose one type of spell you know. You may counterspell any spell of that type, even if you do not know the actual spell, so long as you expend spell levels equal to that of the spell being cast. You may choose this ability again in order to apply this ability to another type of spell you know.

Specialist's Assimilation: Choose one spell you would normally be ineligible to choose, like one of a school or spell descriptor that you cannot cast. You gain that spell as a bonus spell, so long as it is of level equal to or lower than the highest level spell you can cast, and add one spell descriptor onto it. Alternatively, you may change the spell's school to one that you know. Energy descriptors displace one another, so a Fire Savant learning Melf's Acid Arrow would remove the [Acid] descriptor and add the [Fire] descriptor. Some of these changes may require mechanical changes at the choice of the DM(ex. Changing Summon Monster to the Necromancy school may call for removing all templates and adding the Zombie or Skeleton template to all creatures). You may select this ability again to choose another spell of appropriate level.

Not Good Enough: Choose one spell descriptor/school of spells you know. You gain Spell resistance to that kind of spell equal to 5 + your class level + the number of Caster Points you have for the casting of that kind of spell. You may select this ability again to either gain spell resistance to another kind of spell you know or to increase an existing spell resistance by 2.

Spell Trance: Certain Spell Savants can get into the zone, majorly improving their spells. You may enter a spell trance for a number of rounds per day equal to your class level + casting ability modifier. When in a spell trance, choose one kind of spell you know. You may treat castings of this kind of spell as though it had 1 more Caster Point than it actually does. You need not use all these rounds consecutively, but must use at minimum 2 rounds at a time. You may choose this ability again to add 2 rounds to your total daily use.

Specialist Adept: Choose one kind of spell you know. Castings of this kind of spell gain +1 Caster Points. You may choose this ability again to add another Caster Point to one kind of spell you know.

You cannot choose any ability twice in a row.

Nerf Option: You may only select two spell descriptors for specialties.

Yeah, that's basically it. Trying to think of a good capstone. Please comment and PEACH.

[NeoSeraphi]

Er...generally a spellcaster needs a spell list to choose from.

Seems odd that the spellcaster is proficient with leather but not padded armor.

Also, you should probably link your spell level homebrew in this post somewhere for the convenience of the PEACHers.

You mention spell failure, so I assume the spellcaster casts spells as an arcane caster, though you didn't mention that either.

[unosarta]

Er...generally a spellcaster needs a spell list to choose from.

It's based on spell descriptors, which doesn't really seem like a good way to determine a spell list, but whatever.

[Pyromancer999]

Er...generally a spellcaster needs a spell list to choose from.

It gets spells of the descriptors/schools chosen.

Seems odd that the spellcaster is proficient with leather but not padded armor.

Added.

Also, you should probably link your spell level homebrew in this post somewhere for the convenience of the PEACHers.

This used the base of the Spellweaver class, so the system is already explained in it.

You mention spell failure, so I assume the spellcaster casts spells as an arcane caster, though you didn't mention that either.

Added.

It's based on spell descriptors, which doesn't really seem like a good way to determine a spell list, but whatever.

Eh, well, it's meant to be a generic specialist class. Plus I sort of wrote it up in 10 minutes.

[NeoSeraphi]

So it is able to pick from all spell lists, including the wizard, cleric, druid, spirit shaman, wu jen, paladin, ranger, bard, assassin, warmage, dread necromancer, and beguiler, as long as they have the same descriptor?

[unosarta]

So it is able to pick from all spell lists, including the wizard, cleric, druid, spirit shaman, wu jen, paladin, ranger, bard, assassin, warmage, dread necromancer, and beguiler, as long as they have the same descriptor?

Or school, which means that when the caster chooses Conjuration, they get every conjuration spell ever. No matter the spell list, no matter the class it's meant for. The schools are used pretty much in ever spell, so that means you can basically have 4/9s of all of the spells ever at first level.

[NeoSeraphi]

Or school, which means that when the caster chooses Conjuration, they get every conjuration spell ever. No matter the spell list, no matter the class it's meant for. The schools are used pretty much in ever spell, so that means you can basically have 4/9s of all of the spells ever at first level.

No, he said "each school counts as two descriptors", so only 2 schools at 1st level.

[Pyromancer999]

So it is able to pick from all spell lists, including the wizard, cleric, druid, spirit shaman, wu jen, paladin, ranger, bard, assassin, warmage, dread necromancer, and beguiler, as long as they have the same descriptor?

Pretty much.

Or school, which means that when the caster chooses Conjuration, they get every conjuration spell ever. No matter the spell list, no matter the class it's meant for. The schools are used pretty much in ever spell, so that means you can basically have 4/9s of all of the spells ever at first level.

They don't automatically get access to every spell containing the chosen descriptors/schools. They have to choose spells. Also, I'm not getting where you're getting 4/9ths from.

[unosarta]

They don't automatically get access to every spell containing the chosen descriptors/schools. They have to choose spells. Also, I'm not getting where you're getting 4/9ths from.

Okay, your description is really confusing.

You get to choose 4 of em at first level. That's four schools. Given how schools work in D&D spellcasting, that means 4/9s of all of the spells ever, from the way I was reading the way casting worked. Herpderp, didn't notice that schools count for 2 descriptors.

Again, can you please make this easier to read? Right now, there are descriptions that should be in one paragraph that are in the other, and most of the things are hard to tell.

[Pyromancer999]

Okay, your description is really confusing.

You get to choose 4 of em at first level. That's four schools. Given how schools work in D&D spellcasting, that means 4/9s of all of the spells ever, from the way I was reading the way casting worked. Herpderp, didn't notice that schools count for 2 descriptors.

...It's four spell descriptors. Not schools. Spell Descriptors. You know, like [Fire],[Glamer], etc.? Also, you only get so many spells per level.

Again, can you please make this easier to read? Right now, there are descriptions that should be in one paragraph that are in the other, and most of the things are hard to tell.[/QUOTE]

...Not much I can do to make them easier to read. Sorry. You just have to read the paragraph.

[unosarta]

Spellcasting: You know all cantrips with a descriptor or school you have chosen through Specialization, and gain 4 1st level spells, divided equally amongst all the descriptors/schools you chose through Specialization. However, you may research or otherwise learn spells of your selected schools/descriptors, much like a Wizard, except that you may only learn up to your casting ability modifier + number of Caster Points for that school/descriptor in spells this way(see Specialization).

Specialization: Specialists are known for one thing specifically: Specializing. Choose up to four spell descriptors. You may only choose spells having these descriptors. You may also choose schools instead of descriptors for this class feature, counting each school as two descriptors. You may always choose spells from the Universal school no matter what. Whenever you cast a spell, you gain Caster Points to use on the spell, the number of which is listed on the table above. You may expend 1 Caster Point to add +1 to either the DC or caster level of the spell when cast. You may expend 2 Caster Points per level it would add to the spell to add a metamagic effect to the feat for free. You may give up one spell descriptor choice to add 1 Caster Point to the casting of all spells of one other spell descriptor/school you chose using this class feature. You may only give up to two spell descriptor choices this way.

Bolded every time you mention school in the description. Clearly, one can get schools through this class, although it is harder than descriptors. However, that still means that a character at first level can get two schools, and choose spells from every spell list, as long as spells are from those schools. All spells have a school. That means that, if there is a spell, there is a school corresponding to it, which means that every spell ever is under purview of this class.

In addition, the Universal school is pretty powerful.

[Pyromancer999]

Bolded every time you mention school in the description. Clearly, one can get schools through this class, although it is harder than descriptors. However, that still means that a character at first level can get two schools, and choose spells from every spell list, as long as spells are from those schools. All spells have a school. That means that, if there is a spell, there is a school corresponding to it, which means that every spell ever is under purview of this class.

In addition, the Universal school is pretty powerful.

1) You don't get to automatically cast all spells of that type. You get a limited number of spells.

2)You only get a limited number of spells per level. Yes, every spell of the types you choose can be selected for that, but you only get so many spells.

[unosarta]

1) You don't get to automatically cast all spells of that type. You get a limited number of spells.

2)You only get a limited number of spells per level. Yes, every spell of the types you choose can be selected for that, but you only get so many spells.

But you can still choose from every spell in the game that has that school. That means, given that you have at least two schools, you can choose any spell from Conjuration or Transmutation, the two most powerful schools in the game. Any spell at all. That includes pretty much all of the Cleric spell list, the best spells of the Wizard spell list, some huge part of the Druid spell list. You have the best of the all of the Tier 1 spell lists right there. That doesn't include spell lists from other splats, new spells, miscellaneous spells. Seriously, although you do only get a few spells per level, those spells are the best you can freaking get. This is like the Sorcerer on crack (but probably better).

[Pyromancer999]

But you can still choose from every spell in the game that has that school. That means, given that you have at least two schools, you can choose any spell from Conjuration or Transmutation, the two most powerful schools in the game. Any spell at all. That includes pretty much all of the Cleric spell list, the best spells of the Wizard spell list, some huge part of the Druid spell list. You have the best of the all of the Tier 1 spell lists right there. That doesn't include spell lists from other splats, new spells, miscellaneous spells. Seriously, although you do only get a few spells per level, those spells are the best you can freaking get. This is like the Sorcerer on crack (but probably better).

Hmm...while that's true, you can also get spells from other schools through Savant's Knowledge. Also, don't look down upon the other schools, which are pretty powerful in their own right. In fact, few of my players use either of those two schools because there's little need to. Also, in terms of firepower, I've converted the Wizard and Sorcerer's spell slots into spell levels, and the Wizard has 180 spell levels per day while the Sorcerer's got 270. So, in terms of firepower, it's around midway between the two.

[unosarta]

Hmm...while that's true, you can also get spells from other schools through Savant's Knowledge. Also, don't look down upon the other schools, which are pretty powerful in their own right. In fact, few of my players use either of those two schools because there's little need to. Also, in terms of firepower, I've converted the Wizard and Sorcerer's spell slots into spell levels, and the Wizard has 180 spell levels per day while the Sorcerer's got 270. So, in terms of firepower, it's around midway between the two.

So, basically, you are saying they are even more powerful than I thought they were?

That is the level of fire power that I assumed the class had. *shrug*

[Pyromancer999]

So, basically, you are saying they are even more powerful than I thought they were?

That is the level of fire power that I assumed the class had. *shrug*

Not really. I'm saying that this class is pretty balanced for a caster.

[Ziegander]

Not really. I'm saying that this class is pretty balanced for a caster.

No, it really, really isn't. I don't consider myself much of an optimizer, so I don't know all of the shenanigans you can pull off with access to every spell in the game, but I do know that handing out amazingly powerful metamagic reducers + as many metamagic feats as the Wizard makes this class more powerful than Wizard X/Incantatrix X builds and that's saying a lot.

[JaronK]

Look at the Shadowcraft Mage. Now look at this class. Think about it.

Take Metamagic Feat, alternate it with Specialist Adept. You'll want Residual Metamagic and Echoing Spell to make this truly silly. For your spell types, take Figments and any other one type of spell (how about Evil, cause Evil is fun?), and get the extra caster points. Don't forget Arcane Thesis (Silent Image). Oh, and aren't there ways of adding tags to spells? Like, isn't there a metamagic to make any spell Evil? Heh. I'll take "cast everything" please.

To give you an idea of what this madness will look like, consider the following:

Gnome Spell Savant 10/Shadowcraft Mage 5 (Figments and Evil)
SS1: Spell Focus: Illusion, +3CP
SS2: Heighten Spell
SS3: Earth Sense
SS4: +1CP(Figments)
SS5: +1CP
SS6: Earth Spell, Echoing Spell
SS7:
SS8: +1CP Figments
SS9: Arcane Thesis (Silent Image)
SS10: Twin Spell, +1CP
SCM1:
SCM2: Residual Metamagic
SCM3:
SCM4:
SCM5: Easy Metamagic (Heighten Spell)

So, this guy has 7CP to cast with, so every shadow illusion spell he casts is at +1DC to resist with two free metamagic levels if he wants. Round one of the encounter, he would like to cast a 9th level spell (at level 15). He'll heighten Silent Image (a 0 level spell, he took it from the Gnome Illusionist list) to 9th level. Earth spell makes it 10th level (at +9 caster level), Easy Metamagic and three levels of free metamagic make it take a 5th level slot. Arcane Thesis makes the caster level +11. So he launches off some nifty Evocation or Conjuration (Creation or Summoning) spell, chosen at the time of casting. Maybe it's Summon Monster 9, I don't know. Whatever he feels like. Whatever it is, it's at +1DC to resist, because he's that pimpin'.

Next round, due to Residual Metamagic he gets that Heighten effect free of charge. So he casts Silent Image again, getting all those benefits... but now he'll Echo it this round (Due to his 7 caster points and Arcane Thesis, this is free). And for fun, he's going to Twin this spell, so now for a second level spell slot (-1 Arcane Thesis, -1 two caster points) he's casting any 9th level Evocation or Conjuration (Creation or Summoning) spell at +11 caster level twice in one round... and in an hour, he's going to get that same spell back, automatically prepared as being Twinned and Heightened to 10th level, and still Echoing, at caster level +7. And it's going to keep echoing back every hour after casting, at -4CL each time, so he's basically got endless spells all day to go Nova with.

Oh, and if he wants he can cast again next round, using Residual Metamagic to get either the Twinning or Echoing back free.

And it's only going to get worse as he takes more levels of this class.

Yeah, there's a problem with handing out this much metamagic and thus much metamagic reduction.

JaronK

[Pyromancer999]

No, it really, really isn't. I don't consider myself much of an optimizer, so I don't know all of the shenanigans you can pull off with access to every spell in the game, but I do know that handing out amazingly powerful metamagic reducers + as many metamagic feats as the Wizard makes this class more powerful than Wizard X/Incantatrix X builds and that's saying a lot.

....It's not every spell in the game. It's up to four kinds of spells. And you get as many spells as a Wizard, with a limited research option. So, while it's got more firepower, it's not got access to every spell in the game. Also, as people seem to have a problem with Caster Points giving a Metamagic boost for free...They don't really get that until 5th level, unless they sacrifice a spell descriptor choice or two. Still, perhaps I should limit the Metamagic feat number of times taken, and also raise the cost of Metamagic reduction.

[Pyromancer999]

No, it really, really isn't. I don't consider myself much of an optimizer, so I don't know all of the shenanigans you can pull off with access to every spell in the game, but I do know that handing out amazingly powerful metamagic reducers + as many metamagic feats as the Wizard makes this class more powerful than Wizard X/Incantatrix X builds and that's saying a lot.

....It's not every spell in the game. It's up to four kinds of spells. And you get as many spells as a Wizard, with a limited research option. So, while it's got more firepower, it's not got access to every spell in the game.

ex. A Spell Savant wants to go for a Storm theme, so they choose the Air, Sonic, Water, and Electricity descriptors. At 1st level, they gain one 1st level spell of each type, plus access to all cantrips with those descriptors. 2nd level and beyond, they gain two spells each level, selected from those types.

Also, as people seem to have a problem with Caster Points giving a Metamagic boost for free...They don't really get that until 5th level, unless they sacrifice a spell descriptor choice or two. Still, perhaps I should limit the Metamagic feat number of times taken, and also raise the cost of Metamagic reduction.

[Ziegander]

....It's not every spell in the game. It's up to four kinds of spells. And you get as many spells as a Wizard, with a limited research option. So, while it's got more firepower, it's not got access to every spell in the game.

The class does have access to every spell in the game. Any individual character may not (yet to be determined), but the class itself definitely does.

EDIT: Actually... it gets a whole lot more interesting now that I've realized that it's descriptors ONLY, and that subschools aren't included. Now you can't even learn most abjurations at all unless you go for the whole school. Hmm... still an unbalanced class, but already pretty restricted.

Also, as people seem to have a problem with Caster Points giving a Metamagic boost for free...They don't really get that until 5th level, unless they sacrifice a spell descriptor choice or two.

They can get a free +1 metamagic on every spell at 1st level for giving up one descriptor. If they give up two descriptors or one school that's free +1 metamagic and +1 DC or caster level for all spells they cast at 1st level. It gets worse from there. You're looking at potentially +2 levels of free metamagic at 2nd level with Specialist Adept. By 20th level a character could have up to +6 levels of free metamagic with their spells before taking feats into account.

I'm going to suggest that you eliminate the concept of Caster Points entirely. They are too fiddly and add far too much potential for abuse. Beyond that I would suggest limiting the choice in variety of spells to ONLY descriptors, and only non-aligned descriptors. That brings the mechanics more in line with the theme you seem to have in mind. You probably also want to account for Subschools, if only to remind players that (Calling), (Creation), (Charm), (Figment), etc are not descriptors.

EDIT: More necessary restrictions: 1) Make a note that Spell Savants learn spells at their highest available spell levels. This prevents abuses such as learning Haste as a 1st level spell. 2) For learning spells with multiple descriptors require the Spell Savant to have chosen all of the descriptors. That way people aren't getting freebie spells that belong to two "disciplines."

[JaronK]

Yeah, the obvious breakers I see here:

1) Massive number of metamagic feats. That alone begs for SCM abuse.

2) Heavy metamagic reduction. That never bodes well. Going with just two descriptors gives you discount metamagics at level 1, two of them by level 5. Asking for trouble, especially with point 1.

3) Some descriptors are really common, and some can be added on to spells (Evil is a great example). Leaving off the alignment descriptors will help tremendously.

4) A lot of your abilities work AMAZINGLY if there's only one type of spell you want to use (I chose Figments to abuse, but I suspect you could have a lot of fun with Evil). That's too much synergy when used with flexible types of spells.

5) The whole "Any spell you want" thing is just begging for someone to find the Trapsmith list, the Adept list, and other lists that have lower than normal spell levels and just start giggling. It's the Archivist problem all over again.

JaronK

[Pyromancer999]

They can get a free +1 metamagic on every spell at 1st level for giving up one descriptor. If they give up two descriptors or one school that's free +1 metamagic and +1 DC or caster level for all spells they cast at 1st level. It gets worse from there. You're looking at potentially +2 levels of free metamagic at 2nd level with Specialist Adept. By 20th level a character could have up to +6 levels of free metamagic with their spells before taking feats into account.

....At max, any one descriptor/school is going to have 7 Caster Points. So that's 3 levels of free metamagic maximum. Still, perhaps I should put a limit on Specialist Adept.

I'm going to suggest that you eliminate the concept of Caster Points entirely. They are too fiddly and add far too much potential for abuse. Beyond that I would suggest limiting the choice in variety of spells to ONLY descriptors, and only non-aligned descriptors. That brings the mechanics more in line with the theme you seem to have in mind. You probably also want to account for Subschools, if only to remind players that (Calling), (Creation), (Charm), (Figment), etc are not descriptors.

Subschools should count as descriptors in this case, then. I'll include it under the nerf option.

EDIT: More necessary restrictions: 1) Make a note that Spell Savants learn spells at their highest available spell levels.

I thought this part was obvious, but perhaps I need to spell that out more clearly, although I'm not entirely sure how to do so.

This prevents abuses such as learning Haste as a 1st level spell. 2) For learning spells with multiple descriptors require the Spell Savant to have chosen all of the descriptors. That way people aren't getting freebie spells that belong to two "disciplines."

Yeah. They can only select spells with the descriptors they have. Not ones with any others. Perhaps this was not clear?

Yeah, the obvious breakers I see here:

1) Massive number of metamagic feats. That alone begs for SCM abuse.

They get 4 metamagic feats maximum. How is that overpowered.

2) Heavy metamagic reduction. That never bodes well. Going with just two descriptors gives you discount metamagics at level 1, two of them by level 5. Asking for trouble, especially with point 1.

Maybe the metamagic option should be gained at a later level. Moved to level 3.

3) Some descriptors are really common, and some can be added on to spells (Evil is a great example). Leaving off the alignment descriptors will help tremendously.

This should be fine as-is.

4) A lot of your abilities work AMAZINGLY if there's only one type of spell you want to use (I chose Figments to abuse, but I suspect you could have a lot of fun with Evil). That's too much synergy when used with flexible types of spells.

Not entirely sure what you're saying here.

5) The whole "Any spell you want" thing is just begging for someone to find the Trapsmith list, the Adept list, and other lists that have lower than normal spell levels and just start giggling. It's the Archivist problem all over again.

JaronK

Ah, forgot to include the standard precaution against this. Changed.

[JaronK]

They get 4 metamagic feats maximum. How is that overpowered.

Some PrCs (most notably the SCM, as I showed above) get insanely powerful with enough metamagic feats. Handing them out like candy along with a class that actually gives out metamagic reduction too is huge.

Maybe the metamagic option should be gained at a later level. Moved to level 3.

Still before the PrCs come in, so this changes little to nothing.

Not entirely sure what you're saying here.

Look at the Shadowcraft Mage build I made above, see how I broke the heck out of your class? That's what I'm saying.

Ah, forgot to include the standard precaution against this. Changed.

Erm, that fix might not work so well. Some spells are located in obscure places at higher levels than normal. Or even some basic stuff like Wizards getting Animate Dead as a 4th level spell while Clerics get it as a 3rd. Was highest from everywhere really what you wanted?

How about just letting them pick off the Wizard, Sorcerer, Druid, and Cleric lists? Isn't that good enough?

JaronK

[Pyromancer999]

Some PrCs (most notably the SCM, as I showed above) get insanely powerful with enough metamagic feats. Handing them out like candy along with a class that actually gives out metamagic reduction too is huge.

It's not like candy. Also, it gets less than the wizard.

Look at the Shadowcraft Mage build I made above, see how I broke the heck out of your class? That's what I'm saying.

In my experience, anything can be broken given enough effort. I once knew a guy that could break a Monk 20.

Erm, that fix might not work so well. Some spells are located in obscure places at higher levels than normal. Or even some basic stuff like Wizards getting Animate Dead as a 4th level spell while Clerics get it as a 3rd. Was highest from everywhere really what you wanted?

Yep. Pretty much.

How about just letting them pick off the Wizard, Sorcerer, Druid, and Cleric lists? Isn't that good enough?

JaronK

...Not really, no. Because the same level conflicts still take place.

[Ziegander]

....At max, any one descriptor/school is going to have 7 Caster Points. So that's 3 levels of free metamagic maximum. Still, perhaps I should put a limit on Specialist Adept.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding how this works, but, as far as I can tell, at 1st level you can go ahead and just choose, say, Conjuration in place of two descriptors, and then forgo the other two for +2 caster points. Right? So, then, you only have one "kind" of spell you can cast - Conjuration. Then, at 2nd level, and every fourth level thereafter you choose Specialist Adept (Conjuration), thus netting you 12 caster points whenever you cast a Conjuration spell, right? Seems like 6 levels of free metamagic unless I'm completely missing something.

Subschools should count as descriptors in this case, then. I'll include it under the nerf option.

Wait... how is this a nerf? Including subschools is a straight versatility upgrade.

I thought this part was obvious, but perhaps I need to spell that out more clearly, although I'm not entirely sure how to do so.

I'm talking about forcing them to pick the highest spell level for any given spell from the spell lists available to them. Certain spells, when shared by different classes, are available at different spell levels. For instance, Animate Dead is a 3rd level spell for Clerics, but a 4th level spell for Wizards; Haste is a 1st level spell for Trapsmiths, but a 4th level spell for Wizards. You should definitely require that the Spell Savant learn spells at the highest spell level given.

Yeah. They can only select spells with the descriptors they have. Not ones with any others. Perhaps this was not clear?

Acid Fog, for example, is of the (Creation) subschool and has the [Acid] descriptor. I'm suggesting that only character that have chosen both of those be able to learn Acid Fog.

They get 4 metamagic feats maximum. How is that overpowered.

They can get five actually (which is more than a Wizard not less). And that's not overpowered (per se) by itself, but coupled with free, amazingly awesome, metamagic reduction it is.

[Pyromancer999]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding how this works, but, as far as I can tell, at 1st level you can go ahead and just choose, say, Conjuration in place of two descriptors, and then forgo the other two for +2 caster points. Right? So, then, you only have one "kind" of spell you can cast - Conjuration. Then, at 2nd level, and every fourth level thereafter you choose Specialist Adept (Conjuration), thus netting you 12 caster points whenever you cast a Conjuration spell, right? Seems like 6 levels of free metamagic unless I'm completely missing something.

Hmm...that's true. Still, I'm thinking of reducing or completely removing that option at the moment.

Wait... how is this a nerf? Including subschools is a straight versatility upgrade.

Ah, I meant in the spellcasting section. Sorry, a mistype.

I'm talking about forcing them to pick the highest spell level for any given spell from the spell lists available to them. Certain spells, when shared by different classes, are available at different spell levels. For instance, Animate Dead is a 3rd level spell for Clerics, but a 4th level spell for Wizards; Haste is a 1st level spell for Trapsmiths, but a 4th level spell for Wizards. You should definitely require that the Spell Savant learn spells at the highest spell level given.

Already addressed.

Acid Fog, for example, is of the (Creation) subschool and has the [Acid] descriptor. I'm suggesting that only character that have chosen both of those be able to learn Acid Fog.

And that's what I'm saying happens. You can only choose spells with descriptors you have chosen. Schools, I suppose, are not affected by the descriptor limitation, but if not of a school you have chosen, yes, you couldn't choose Acid Fog unless you had the Creation subschool and the [Acid] descriptor.

They can get five actually (which is more than a Wizard not less). And that's not overpowered (per se) by itself, but coupled with free, amazingly awesome, metamagic reduction it is.

It's only ones that they qualify for. Still, if you choose at 4th and every four levels after....I think I can get what you're saying. Actually, originally, I was thinking of having the option only apply to one school, but that still presents problems. I'm thinking of having it limited to being taken 3 times.

[JaronK]

The issue here is still this: when we talk about why casters are broken, it boils down to "they get super powered spells." When we want to break them further, we say "how can we metamagic these spells at reduced cost." What's powerful? Wizard. What's more powerful? Wizard/Incantrix. What's powerful? Cleric. What's more powerful? DMM Persistent Cleric. What are the most powerful PrCs? Dweomerkeeper, Shadowcraft Mage, Incantrix, Initiate of the Sevenfold Viel, Anima Mage, Tainted Sorcerer. Notice how three of those give out metamagic reductions and one other also deals heavily in metamagic.

Thus, what's the fastest way to broken? Give someone their pick of the best spells out there, give them metamagics to support this, and make their metamagics cheaper. What does this base class do? Exactly that.

Look again at my build. Was I doing anything fancy? No. No flaws, no cheap shenanigans, and what I used for the crazy brokenness was the metamagic feats your class handed me and the spell choice your class handed me as well, along with the metamagic reductions. But yeah, what I made was broken all over the place. This is not about me breaking Monk 20 by using some wacky race and feat choice. This was straight forward. I'm sorry, but your base concept here of "metamagic specialist who gets discount metamagics and any spells they want" is extremely powerful. All I have to do is pick one type of spell I could break with metamagics, apply all my class abilities towards that type of spell (in the SCM example, I picked Figments), and blow the game out of the water.

JaronK

[Pyromancer999]

The issue here is still this: when we talk about why casters are broken, it boils down to "they get super powered spells." When we want to break them further, we say "how can we metamagic these spells at reduced cost." What's powerful? Wizard. What's more powerful? Wizard/Incantrix. What's powerful? Cleric. What's more powerful? DMM Persistent Cleric. What are the most powerful PrCs? Dweomerkeeper, Shadowcraft Mage, Incantrix, Initiate of the Sevenfold Viel, Anima Mage, Tainted Sorcerer. Notice how three of those give out metamagic reductions and one other also deals heavily in metamagic.

Thus, what's the fastest way to broken? Give someone their pick of the best spells out there, give them metamagics to support this, and make their metamagics cheaper. What does this base class do? Exactly that.

Look again at my build. Was I doing anything fancy? No. No flaws, no cheap shenanigans, and what I used for the crazy brokenness was the metamagic feats your class handed me and the spell choice your class handed me as well, along with the metamagic reductions. But yeah, what I made was broken all over the place. This is not about me breaking Monk 20 by using some wacky race and feat choice. This was straight forward. I'm sorry, but your base concept here of "metamagic specialist who gets discount metamagics and any spells they want" is extremely powerful. All I have to do is pick one type of spell I could break with metamagics, apply all my class abilities towards that type of spell (in the SCM example, I picked Figments), and blow the game out of the water.

JaronK

Hmm...so it would appear that the metamagic component of this class should be reduced or elminated altogether. I shall have to think of how.

[JaronK]

I think that's going to be necessary, yes. Perhaps you could borrow some concepts from the Master Specialist PrC and the Unearthed Arcana variants, to get ideas for way to have your general idea of how to have class features for specialists other than metamagics?

JaronK