How do you capture a wizard?

[Darth Stabber]

I tend to think these types of discussions are pretty awful in that there is never a model to use in place of the Wizard. Without a sample wizard character stated out, these discussions just become speculation as the pro-wizard side merely suggests that a wizard will have every spell, every contingency and every magic item within their grasp at all times.

Actually, these discussions are productive, the list of contingencies and magic items are useful for figuring what could mess up these plans. We reason out how to catch even the most paranoid wizard.

Any answers to mundane sneaking (with darkstalker) followed by AMF amulet+grappling?

[Emperor Tippy]

Any answers to mundane sneaking (with darkstalker) followed by AMF amulet+grappling?

Mindsight. Shrink Item hat.

[Jack_Simth]

Any answers to mundane sneaking (with darkstalker) followed by AMF amulet+grappling?

Cross-class ranks in Spot, spot-boosting items, and Moment of Prescience, I imagine... although, come to that, the Wizard in question, per the OP, is going to be somewhere between about 14th and 16th, so 8th level spells may be out of the question. Hmm.

Ah, Simulacrum of something with Lifesense (Libris Mortis) or Mindsight (Lords of Madness) with orders to warn of things unseen that come near.

[Corwin_of_Amber]

Okay, so there are some great ideas here that I will use.

I think, for the first part I will use SotAO mystic rangers that multiclass a bit (with a few scrolls of Domensional Anchor and DDoor, if necessary).

As for avoiding the 15-minute work day, thankfully, my players are somewhat compliant in that aspect. I have made it clear to them that constantly resing and restarting will make the world go on without them, and their greed for exp/loot has trained them to go until the actually need to refuel. Although the complete leck of backstories (in spite of constant requests) sort of stymies the coercion angle.

I think the scenario will include multiple bandit-style fights in a war-torn country, ending with them being confronted (along with a group of bandits) by a full-strength unit of the rangers. Interrupting them mid-combat should definately give some surprise element. Also, the construct backup angle can definately work as the country in employ of the rangers is meant to be one of the more stable areas after an immense war over the entire continent.

As for the reason for this capture, I plan to have the players undergo an escape scenario. I have a plan for if they all get captured or just 1-2 of them get captured, but it won't really work if none get captured.


I apreciate the help, everyone. Thank you.

[Calanon]

Actually, these discussions are productive, the list of contingencies and magic items are useful for figuring what could mess up these plans. We reason out how to catch even the most paranoid wizard.

Yeah, I kind of wish that a moderator would just sticky a Caster Vs Mundane Thread that can be used to figure out how to completely pin down a Caster

Ah yes... a man can dream I suppose

[Cidolfas]

I know Antimagic Field has already been mentioned, but on a similar note there is the antimagic ray spell from Spell Compendium, which is essentially a single target version of AMF. I don't recall if its duration is quite the same, but it's all the juicy debuffing of AMF without the self-crippling.

[Darth Stabber]

Although the complete leck of backstories (in spite of constant requests) sort of stymies the coercion angle.

The key to that is simple. Allow the players to take flaw only if they have presented you with a backstory. The extra feat is too tempting to ignore, and since it is a variant rule, you are well within your rights as a GM to revoke variant rules. You could do the same thing with traits, though I doubt they are quite tempting enough.

I usually instead just give away a feat related benefit, and allow flaws as default. Example a sorcerer with arcane disciple who has presented with their backstory (preferably written, but verbal will do) will also get the domain power. It usually has something to do with their background, but not always. Like a swordsage that lives in a kingdom full of necromancers got access to enough Ironheart to get Ironheart surge, since necro is all about the Debuffs.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Typical contingencies a mid-level wizard has access to and probably will be using if he is sufficiently paranoid:

"Tinfoil Hat". This is a cone of adamantine large enough to cover him completely, with a Shrink Item cast on it. Shrink Item is a 3rd level spell, with a duration of Days/Level, so the only limitation is the cost involved in purchasing an Adamantine cone large enough to encompass him. AMF automatically represses the shrink item, blocking LoS, and allowing the wizard to cast whatever he wants to from within the cone. This prevents most 'AMF + Grapple' suggestions, and is available by level 5 without cheese, or possibly by level 1 with extreme cheese.

"Contingency Celerity upon my being the target of an attack or negative effect". This is a 6th level spell, so he'll need to be 11th level to pull this off. It's pretty much 'no, you don't get first shot at me. Even if you make your first shot, I still get an action first'. And trust me, his one action is going to hurt a LOT more than yours will. Assuming he doesn't DimDoor/Teleport away

"Contingency DimDoor upon anyone casting MDJ within range of me". No, you aren't allowed to debuff me.

Polymorph into Dire Tortoise. No, you don't get a surprise round. Not even then. Available by level 7, with sufficient CL boosters to hit the HD limit.

Polymorph into War Troll, share with familiar. This counters the 'put down the wand, or the familiar gets it'. Basically, your familiar can now eat their face off. Don't forget, it still has Improved Evasion, so you can't just Fireball it. Also available by level 7. War Troll can be substituted with any HD-appropriate obnoxious monster within the limitations and parameters of the Polymorph spell. If one is an Elan, this can get stupid quick.

"I don't have to take this anymore, I'm going home". DimDoor, Teleport, Teleport without error, Plane Shift... depending on the level of the wizard, it can be difficult to impossible to keep him in one place long enough to capture him. This gets exponentially worse if he uses Planar Binding, Lesser to bind a Nightmare for Astral Projection. Now you aren't even trying to capture the wizard, but merely his projection. His actual body is in another castle plane. PB,L is a 5th level spell, so available by level 9

Necklace of Adaptation. For a mere 9k, you become immune to gas-borne toxins, drowning, asphyxiation, or anything else that tries to hamper his breathing.

Ring of Free Movement. Immunity to grappling, and a bunch of other things

Protection from Evil. Immunity to mind-affecting. Well, it's repressing mind-affecting, so it might as well be immune. This is obtainable by level 1.

It requires level 15, barring extreme cheese, to get Mind Blank, and you can't afford Third Eye: Conceal much before then either, unless you wreck the economy with infinite gold loops (wall of iron, flesh to salt, etc...). However, this is also immunity to divination as well as mind-affecting.

Periapt of Health/Proof against Poision. According to the MIC, you can combine these two into one item, making you immune to disease and poisons.

Celerity. Once I hit 7th level, I have the option to, at any time, get a standard action. One is all I will ever need. You had best make sure that your first shot is in the surprise round, and it completely disables me. Too bad by this time, the wizard is going to be in Dire Tortoise form and be immune to surprise. This one spell completely negates any plot to take a wizard by surprise.

Prying Eyes. You don't need the Greater version to be damn hard to surprise, because you're walking around in a cloud of eyeballs.

Robe of Eyes. Improved Uncanny Dodge = not denied dex bonus to AC when flat-footed and can't be flanked.

Greater Mirror Image. Having 7 replenishing images as a swift action means melee will find it nearly impossible to hit the right one. You've got a 12.5% chance of hitting the right one. Have a nice day. Accessible by level 7.

Flight. Overland Flight is available by level 9. By 12th level, Phantom Steed has Airwalk and by 14th it has Flight. With a bit of CL boosting, he could have a flying mount earlier. Basically, if you can't reach him, you can't hurt him.

This is, by no means, an exhaustive list, but these are the most common defenses a reasonably paranoid wizard can be expected to have access to by or around 10th level. Many of these give him flat immunities, others just shore up defenses.

[Calanon]

Like a swordsage that lives in a kingdom full of necromancers got access to enough Ironheart to get Ironheart surge, since necro is all about the Debuffs.

LIES! ITS ALSO ABOUT DESTROYING ONES FRIENDS AND FAMILIES IN THE MOST HORRIFYING WAY IMAGINABLE! (Personal experiences tells me that a person would rather be energy drained then: killed, reanimated and then set loose to kill there family)

[Randomguy]

<snip>

All true, but remember the people doing the capturing here are no bog-standard fighters. We're talking SOTAO mystic rangers. Between level 4 and 10, these guys ARE lightning warriors. Any contingency a wizard their level has, they can have (but at half caster level most of the time).

Also, contingencied celerity against any attack just isn't a sustainable contingency: You'd need to recast those two spells between every single combat for them to be effective.

As for casting celerity without a contingency, the solution is to interrupt their interrupt with another celerity, and do something to disrupt their casting with your time, or at least to prevent them from escaping.

Doesn't the tin foil hat kind of leave you trapped? If they hit you with dimensional anchor first, then you can't escape. And even if you do escape, then you're leaving your allies behind. And staying put just takes you out of combat, so the enemies now outnumber the rest of your allies. They can just deal with you later.

Greater mirror image can be countered by tremorsense, a spell that's available 4 levels earlier. (for mystic rangers, anyways). There's also the entire mage slayer line of feats or just blind fight, which gives you 75% chance of hitting by closing your eyes before you attack.

Dire tortoise form just isn't practical. Polymorph doesn't last long enough to be one all day.

[Zonugal]

Actually, these discussions are productive, the list of contingencies and magic items are useful for figuring what could mess up these plans. We reason out how to catch even the most paranoid wizard.

But see, nothing practical comes from this as a paranoid wizard is the least practical character you could use. There is never a hard limit set on feats or wealth, which means they function beyond the theoretical. They act merely as an answer to an immediate "what-if" without consistency or solid form.

For a true "mundane vs. wizard" battle a standard wizard should be constructed who fits "an average wizard in an average D&D world."

The wizard already has nearly every advantage, I don't see why they need limitless options as well...

[TheDarkSaint]

DM fiat...


"You wake up in a dark room. You are wearing an itchy woolen tunic with no hose. Your stuff is gone. You don't remember the last 24 hours.

What do you do? What...do you do?"


Ambush them in a wild magic area. Watch the fun :)

[Emperor Tippy]

But see, nothing practical comes from this as a paranoid wizard is the least practical character you could use. There is never a hard limit set on feats or wealth, which means they function beyond the theoretical. They act merely as an answer to an immediate "what-if" without consistency or solid form.

For a true "mundane vs. wizard" battle a standard wizard should be constructed who fits "an average wizard in an average D&D world."

The wizard already has nearly every advantage, I don't see why they need limitless options as well...

A level 20 wizard can shuffle her feats around daily with no cost. You do have your Ice Assassin Revered Elder Phaerimm with Embrace the Dark Chaos and Shun the Dark Chaos as some of it's spells known sitting in one of your Bags of Holding, right? With it's Wish's you can also shuffle your magic items to whatever you want them to be at any given time.

Then there is creating an Ice Assassin of a deity with Alter Reality and having it make all the spells you want that exist in the game permanent on you.

Then there is your entire army of Ice Assassins of yourself that you have hanging around and that have chosen different spells for the day as needed.

The reason that level 20 wizards are so powerful and difficult to kill is precisely because they have limitless options.

[Malachei]

The Ice Assassin example is a mostly theoretical one.

Once you're at that point (*) and the DM does not houserule it out, it is pretty much time to start a new campaign for the majority of groups.

(*) just say it aloud, three times: "Ice Assassin Revered Elder Phaerimm with Embrace the Dark Chaos and Shun the Dark Chaos"

I think this is a special case. If a player came to me with this, I'd say "congratulations, you've found a RAW loophole. Now put it in the box with the other 1325 loopholes, and get back to actual play." *sigh*

[Emperor Tippy]

The Ice Assassin example is a mostly theoretical one.

Once you're at that point (*) and the DM does not houserule it out, it is pretty much time to start a new campaign for the majority of groups.

(*) just say it aloud, three times: "Ice Assassin Revered Elder Phaerimm with Embrace the Dark Chaos and Shun the Dark Chaos"

*sigh*

That is just the easiest way to shuffle your feats on a whim, it's not the only way.

Get a CL 50 Scroll of Gate (use a Wish from a Solar that you previously gated in), Shapechange into a Liltu, use your CL 50 Scroll of Gate to bring in 2 Solars. Have one wish you up another CL 50 scroll of Gate, have the other Wish you up a scroll of Embrace the Dark Chaos/Shun the Dark Chaos. Repeat (or use a higher CL Gate scroll to bring in more Solars so you can get your Embrace/Shun scrolls faster) as desired.

Then there is a Simulacrum of a Psion with Psychic Reformation, although that hits you with an XP cost.

I think this is a special case. If a player came to me with this, I'd say "congratulations, you've found a RAW loophole. Now put it in the box with the other 1325 loopholes, and get back to actual play." *sigh*

It's not a loophole, Ice Assassin is intended to create an army of high level individuals under your absolute command. It's the spell performing, and being used, exactly as intended.

Even if you enforce the characters actually having the material component on hand and disallow gating the creature in for a blood sample, and don't allow the characters to make copies of themselves; all they have to do is go and kill a single Solar, Pit Fiend, Dragon, high level enemy, or whatever else they want to copy, hit it's remains with Gentle Repose/Quintessence, and then they have enough material components to make an entire army of that creature. And if you want to disallow making copies of dead creatures, then the players could still imprison whatever they want copies of.

And there is always copying yourself and then having your copy do those things that cost XP, you can spend 5,000 XP and then have your Ice Assassin burn all it's XP on spell casting or item crafting.

[Malachei]

That is just the easiest way to shuffle your feats on a whim, it's not the only way.

Get a CL 50 Scroll of Gate (use a Wish from a Solar that you previously gated in), Shapechange into a Liltu, use your CL 50 Scroll of Gate to bring in 2 Solars. Have one wish you up another CL 50 scroll of Gate, have the other Wish you up a scroll of Embrace the Dark Chaos/Shun the Dark Chaos. Repeat (or use a higher CL Gate scroll to bring in more Solars so you can get your Embrace/Shun scrolls faster) as desired.

Then there is a Simulacrum of a Psion with Psychic Reformation, although that hits you with an XP cost.

But the OP's question is about actual game play at level 10-12.

I know that you love all kinds of optimization shenanigans. These can be fun to read, but I think this one does not really address the OP's question, unless he's interested in blowing up his campaign.

Also, I really think acquiring CL 50 scrolls should be an adventure by itself. And people writing CL 50 scrolls would probably have everything they need, so why should they share the scrolls, so some mid-level wizard can get himself invincible / god-like?

and being used, exactly as intended.

Knowing this would require you to either be the game designer or speak to the game designers, or read the mind of the game designer. In the real-world, unfortunately, talking about RAI is mostly speculation.

[Emperor Tippy]

But the OP's question is about actual game play at level 10-12.

I know that you love all kinds of optimization shenanigans. These can be fun to read, but I think this one does not really address the OP's question, unless he's interested in blowing up his campaign.

I answered the OP's question earlier, I was responding to another poster who was talking about something different.

Also, I really think acquiring CL 50 scrolls should be an adventure by itself. And people writing CL 50 scrolls would probably have everything they need, so why should they share the scrolls, so some mid-level wizard can get himself invincible / god-like?

Buy a Scroll of Gate (or Scribe one yourself), Shapechange into a Nightmare, use Astral Projection, use your scroll of gate to Gate in a Solar to Wish up your Embrace/Shun scroll, dismiss your Astral Projection, use Astral Projection again, use your reformed Scroll of Gate to again Gate in a Solar to use it's Wish.

Done with pure core (except Embrace/Shun) and pure RAW. Thank you Astral Projection not using up consumable resources.

Knowing this would require you to either be the game designer or speak to the game designers, or read the mind of the game designer. In the real-world, unfortunately, talking about RAI is mostly speculation.

Frostburn has an entire dungeon and adventure based that is the lair of the initial creator of the Ice Assassin spell and it goes into some detail about exactly what he intended the spell to do and what it does do. The RAW is also not remotely ambiguous or even a bit fishy.

And there is always Simulacrum, which is core and does the exact same thing (at least for the purposes I am putting it to).

[Malachei]

I answered the OP's question earlier, I was responding to another poster who was talking about something different.

So all of this is off-topic... *shrugs and closes case*

[ShneekeyTheLost]

All true, but remember the people doing the capturing here are no bog-standard fighters. We're talking SOTAO mystic rangers. Between level 4 and 10, these guys ARE lightning warriors. Any contingency a wizard their level has, they can have (but at half caster level most of the time).

Close, but no cigar. There's a major problem which prevents them from utilizing any Polycheeze... they have 1/2 CL, which means their shape options are vastly more limited.

It's also an obsolete point, since PB,L + Nightmare = you can never truly capture me. No, not even then. It doesn't matter if the SOTAO mystic rangers have access to a large portion of the Wizard's tricks, they're targeting a projection, not the actual wizard. Even if they win, they still don't get the target.

Also, contingencied celerity against any attack just isn't a sustainable contingency: You'd need to recast those two spells between every single combat for them to be effective.

My Rope Trick says there is only one combat per day. Your point?

As for casting celerity without a contingency, the solution is to interrupt their interrupt with another celerity, and do something to disrupt their casting with your time, or at least to prevent them from escaping.

Nested interrupts... glah, I knew there was a reason I quit playing M:TG. Suffice to say, the Wizard has access to better tricks. Like Dire Tortoise to prevent surprise, then simply teleport away before they can catch him. Finding him is also problematic.

Doesn't the tin foil hat kind of leave you trapped? If they hit you with dimensional anchor first, then you can't escape. And even if you do escape, then you're leaving your allies behind. And staying put just takes you out of combat, so the enemies now outnumber the rest of your allies. They can just deal with you later.

The problem lies in hitting him with a dimensional anchor first, since you aren't going to surprise him. Besides, there's this spell... it's called Dispel Magic. Works wonders at getting rid of things like Dimensional Anchor.

Greater mirror image can be countered by tremorsense, a spell that's available 4 levels earlier. (for mystic rangers, anyways). There's also the entire mage slayer line of feats or just blind fight, which gives you 75% chance of hitting by closing your eyes before you attack.

Wrong. Tremorsense won't help you discern, since GMI fools even Tremorsense. Mage Slayer is fun, but it doesn't let you discern between illusions and reality.

Dire tortoise form just isn't practical. Polymorph doesn't last long enough to be one all day.

I respectfully disagree. There's plenty of ways of getting it to work just fine, although some of them require some rather intricate hoops to jump through.

[Jack_Simth]

Typical contingencies a mid-level wizard has access to and probably will be using if he is sufficiently paranoid:

Note that you have a couple of mutually incompatible things in here.

For instance: Unless you're grabbing Craft Contingent Spell, you can't have two Contingencies... and with Craft Contingent Spell, each one has a noticeable cost (GP, XP, and time).

If you're Polymorphed into a Dire Tortise, you're going to have some issues riding around on your Phantom Steed.

Plus, of course, you're running through spells like water, and relying on a way to get no more than one encounter per day.

Of course, it doesn't matter, as the DM is trying to capture a specific player... who probably isn't going to be going into the theoretical optimization mode.

So really, the way to do this is to trick the player, not the character. Walk them into a prepared trap.

Hire a Cleric/Dweomerkeeper (Complete Divine Web Enhancement version) to make a Supernatural Forbiddance by way of Miracle in an area, so that teleporting out is not possible.

Put an AMF trap at the gate, so that Astral Projections can't get in (assuming the player actually does this; I don't think I've seen a Wizard try it in an actual game... or just don't bother; Stoning the Astral Projection is almost as effective as Stoning the Wizard, really... and gives you time to locate the real one).

Have your attackers ready the beat-down.

Put out some rumors of the appropriate bait being in the area.

[Malachei]

My Rope Trick says there is only one combat per day.

My Transdimensional Spell feat says this is a very dangerous insurance you're relying on here.

[IncoherentEssay]

Mage Slayer is fun, but it doesn't let you discern between illusions and reality.

From the Mage Slayer feat chain, Pierce Magical Concealment does exactly that, even specifically stating that you can automatically pick out the right target from Mirror Images. Now whether Polymorph counts as a spell that grants a bonus to AC (due to the likely increased Natural armor bonus) for Pierce Magical Protection is a bit unclear. Personally i'd rule yes, since casters have far too few non-caster counters as is, but thats just an opinion.
Of course, none of those are of much use without a reliable stun/daze lock to shut the caster down. Or enough spellthieves with an ACF (from dragon magazine #353) to drag the CL all the way to 0 .


A more redily available solution is simply outnumbering the mage with dedicated dispellers (Arcane Mastery, Master Abjurer, Inquisition Domain, Elven Spell lore, etc.) If heavy +CL shenanigans are in play, uncap the dispel with Reserves of Strenght cheese and use the same tricks yourself.
The thing about NPCs is that they can afford to go one-trick-pony (from an in-world logic perspective), since unlike PCs they don't need to deal with all the various daily hazards of the dungeon-delving adventuring life. Their 'crippling' overspecialization is even beneficial for social stability due to being much better at shutting down power-tripping casters than indulging in such behaviour themselves .

[ScionoftheVoid]

-snip-It's not a loophole, Ice Assassin is intended to create an army of high level individuals under your absolute command. It's the spell performing, and being used, exactly as intended.-snip-

I thought the spell was intended to make, you know, assassins? I'm fairly sure there's a clause in the spell that the created creature only wishes to kill the original creature it is created from, in fact. Edit: Checked, there is.

My Transdimensional Spell feat says this is a very dangerous insurance you're relying on here.

That feat can't actually do that, unfortunately. Edit to clarify: Rope Trick does not move you to the Ethereal Plane or the Plane of Shadow, the two planes coexistent with the Material (except for the Astral, obviously). IIRC, the feat only allows crossing to a coexistent plane, and might be even more limited than that.

[Malachei]

That feat can't actually do that, unfortunately.

Please explain the basis for your statement.

My reading of the feat description says it can:

A transdimensional spell has its full normal effect on (...) creatures within an extradimensional space in the spell's area. Such creatures include (...) creatures within the extradimensional space of a rope trick

{Scrubbed}

[ScionoftheVoid]

Please explain the basis for your statement.

My reading of the feat description says it can:

(emphasis mine)

Oh, apparently I was remembering that incorrectly. Sorry, never mind.

[Malachei]

No problem. Shooting from the hip looks cool, at least.

[ScionoftheVoid]

No problem. Shooting from the hip looks cool, at least.

Umm, you might also want to take down that text, if it's the exact text of the feat.

[ericgrau]

Similar to what Zonugal and others said, there is a way but it changes; you can have a couple things but not everything at once. Not even close. So I'll be as vague as the question: You beat him up and then restrain him. Though really in 99.99% of campaigns I've seen or heard about it's the same as beating everyone else. You send in enough monsters of high enough strength. Save the rest for theoretical optimization.

Because there are counters to everything and counters to every counter. A thwarted rope trick in a well defended area is a TPK. But then X counters that, Y counters X, etc. But you can't choose everything and so in reality wizards die all the time in actual campaigns. That shouldn't be news to anyone, but somehow people forget that in discussions.

If the OP wasn't so vague and was talking about a specific situation then we could give some options that are often good. They might not always work but like I said that doesn't matter at all. With so little info a lot could changed based on the details like level.

[Jack_Simth]

Umm, you might also want to take down that text, if it's the exact text of the feat.

While I'm not a lawyer, it's entirely probable that the use, there, constitutes fair use - the poster isn't claiming ownership, and it's expected to be a fairly simple matter to say that it's a portion of text for the purposes of a review of the product.

[ScionoftheVoid]

While I'm not a lawyer, it's entirely probable that the use, there, constitutes fair use - the poster isn't claiming ownership, and it's expected to be a fairly simple matter to say that it's a portion of text for the purposes of a review of the product.

Maybe so, but the new phrasing only cuts out things which were irrelevant anyway and is even more safe than what was there before. Why would you ever not be on the safe side if it costs nothing? Kind of hypocritical from someone who didn't fact-check before posting, but I don't have the book available at the moment and remembered some silly limitation on the feat being brought up previously (I think it was being one-way, actually, now that I think back). And I didn't want anyone to beat me to the punch, largely. It's fine either way, it was just a suggestion.